David DeJesus to Oakland!
by mrkupe on Nov 10, 2010 6:49 PM EST
Email
PrintDDJ goes from the Royals to the A's for Vinny Mazzaro and Justin Marks . . .thoughts?
Overall, I think it's a decent deal for the Royals. Not a huge return, but Mazzaro is a major league ready RHP with some upside if he can figure out his secondaries. Eat some innings, transition those young arms in a bit more easily . . .okay, I can buy it. Perhaps this gives the Royals a bit more flexibility to pursue a Greinke trade (not that I'd advise it)?
120 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Love this trade for the A's
Then again, I’m a big DDJ fan
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
It is dependent on the A's getting Type A compensation for him after this year
Otherwise they lose big in the long run, as Mazzaro has a ton of control, and even a little upside, remaining.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU_9zTD9B98&feature=related
Apparently there's an epilepsy warning on this video. But it's so incredibly cool.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 10, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
Well the A's do have the pitching depth to trade Mazzaro
Who was probably their lowest upside starter
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
Mazzaro was pushed out of the rotation
in septemeber for bobby cramer lol
Anderson
Cahill
Gio
Braden
Iwakuma – pending but i dont think they trade mazzaro so fast if they arent sure of signing him
Outman
Ross
Banwart
Cramer
Seems like a decent surplus. Plus maybe A’s search the crap heap for another SP who knows
I'm not sure that's the case.
Sure, the A’s could have traded for DeJesus hoping for another draft pick choice in 2012’s draft.
Sure, the A’s could have posted 17 million to Rakuten so they could sign Iwakuma and then trade him for prospects.
But, then again, maybe they’re keeping both to try to get better and take a shot at postseason this year? The AL West is still weak, even with Texas winning it handedly last year. Another competitive team in the division might not bode well for Texas. So far, Anaheim hasn’t done anything to improve their station, so why should Oakland sit around just developing players forever without trying to win anything?
I look at this as a “safe” route to contention. They’re not risking anything by picking up DeJesus and Iwakuma. If they don’t work out and the team flounders, no big deal for them.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Nov 10, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
Plus after missing time due to injury, he probably wont be a Type A next season.
A huge chunk of the consideration is based on playing time (and counting stats) for the last two seasons (which would be 2010 and 2011 seasons in this case when he’s a free agent). I know he got Type A status this season despite missing a good amount of time, but if he misses a lot of time in 2011 or just sucks, he’ll be a Type B at best. Which, hell, Oakland might take that as well.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Nov 10, 2010 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I kind of discounted the injury
But even if that compensation pick was part of the consideration, that doesn’t mean that the deal wasn’t also for the purpose of winning this year. I definitely think they aren’t going to trade Iwakuma.
I just think that the likelihood of at least a sandwich-round pick makes swallowing the long-term pill of losing a cheap starter in Mazzaro a lot more tolerable. All I’m pointing out.
As I’ve looked at the deal more, it’s actually shockingly even. I can’t really peg a “winner.” The A’s needed a bat in his prime right now, and DeJesus is certainly that. The Royals need players they’ll be able to control through the years after Hosmer/Moustakas/Montgomery/Myers/et al establish themselves in the majors, and Mazzaro is that. Seems like the type of trade that should happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU_9zTD9B98&feature=related
Apparently there's an epilepsy warning on this video. But it's so incredibly cool.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 10, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
(in other words, I'm backing off of that statement a bit)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU_9zTD9B98&feature=related
Apparently there's an epilepsy warning on this video. But it's so incredibly cool.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 10, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
Comp picks
While DDJ has a good shot of at least Type B status, I’m not sure you can count at least one comp pick as a given. DDJ is not exactly the type of player that will garner a big multi-year contract in FA, and I can easily see a scenario where he accepts arbitration for a year, especially if teams are still a little reluctant to splurge due to the economy.
Agree on the surface that this seems like a very even trade.
I have every expectation that the A's will make a good-faith and serious effort to extend DeJesus
after this upcoming season.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Or possibly even before or during it, for that matter.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Agreed. DeJesus isn't going to command a lot in free agency anyway. 3/20 doesn't seem crazy
Even 3/25 isn’t so bad for the A’s.
I’d be shocked if he got more than that in free agency, especially if he’s got Type A status scaring away some teams.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 11, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
I gave him 5/$15 M
in the fantasy league I was in last year. Everyone thought I was crazy…. then they all tried to trade for him because he had such a “friendly” contract.
Virtually no chance of Type A with only a half year of production in 2010.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 11, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Wasn't he just shy of Type A this year(which includes the half year)?
A strong 2011 and he could be a Type A, it’s just not something anyone should bank on.
http://bullpenbanter.com
I'd say he's basically guaranteed Type A as long as he doesn't miss significant time in 2011
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 11, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure I like this deal for Kansas City
On one level, you were never were going to get a big return on a guy that’s just not that flashy- his value comes from a solid batting average, some gap power and good defense on the outfield corners, but he’s not a big HR or SB guy and he’s a good-but-not-great batting average guy. He’s a 3-4 WAR player, but he’s about as unexciting as those types come.
With that said, the price to get him of Mazzaro and Marks seems underwhelming. Marks isn’t really anything special, maybe a bullpen arm, and Mazzaro gives them a cheap starter rather than go back to guys like Bannister, Chen and Davies. And as mrkupe said, it puts less pressure on the club to get back MLB ready pitching in a Greinke deal, so they can really focus on taking the best available deal.
But in general, I’m just not sure I get this deal from KC’s perspective, though: Was the Mazzaro/Marks offer so impressive that they couldn’t wait to make a deal? Were they that anxious to get rid of DeJesus’s $6M salary? It just seems like they pulled the trigger pretty early on a deal that’s not really better than what they could get in December.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
DeJesus has two major knocks against him as far as I can tell, and one minor.
Inconsistent as heck at the plate (wOBA’s of .350, .322, .355, .337, and .363 since 2006). Defense fluctuates wildly (UZR ratings all over the place in the same span). Injury issues (though I’m not sure how badly a torn thumb tendon will effect him long term, if at all).
The upside is anywhere form a 2 to 3 win player, not 4. He’s only gotten close to 4 wins once. He’s basically a solid contributor to a team, not a game changing all star. Ergo, value can’t be that high.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Nov 10, 2010 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
He's a 2-3 WAR player?
I see a guy that’s been a 3+ WAR player in 3 of the past 6 seasons, and he would’ve reached 3+ again in 2010 if he didn’t get hurt. You can’t simply peg his upside at 3 WAR.
UZR might call his defense inconsistent, but he’s certainly an above-average defender on a general level, and his offensive fluctuation is simply because he’s so dependent on his BABIP. Worse-case scenario (assuming he’s healthy), he’s a 2 WAR player like in 2007. Best-case scenario, he’s a 4 WAR player thanks to a +10 bat and a +10 glove.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 10, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
RE: You can’t simply peg his upside at 3 WAR.
Nor 4, because he’s never broken that plane once and the closest he got was 3.8. And 3 of the last 6, half of the seasons, he’s had 3+ WAR. That speaks to the inconsistency I mean.
Maybe he would have put up 3 WAR in 2010 if he stayed healthy, and if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle. Injuries are part of the deal here. He also played in only 144 games in 2009, 133 in 2008, a full 157 in 2007, but didn’t break 130 before that in any season. Thus, he did not make 3 WAR this season and it should be noted as to why.
Look, I’m fine with the guy. I’m not on a personal crusade to dog David Of Jesus, but don’t go nuts with the projection. In no way is he a 3-4 win player.
Fine, I’ll compromise. He’s a 2 to 3.5 win player. Does that work? This isn’t even worth arguing over. DeJesus Christ.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Nov 11, 2010 7:52 AM EST up reply actions
He was on pace for roughly 4.1 WAR in 2010
And as you mentioned, he was actually pretty healthy from 2007-2009, he just wasn’t consistent. On a general level, I’d say 3 WAR is the baseline, a reasonable expectation if he’s getting 600 PA. But with a really good WAR or a high BABIP, he could absolutely be a 4 WAR player.
We’re discussing small things here, though, things that don’t really have a huge impact on the deal itself. I just thought it was curious that you’d cap a guy’s upside at 3 or 3.5 WAR when he’s already had three seasons with 3.3 WAR or better and he was on pace to put up over 4 WAR last season.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
And with a higher K rate and better GB rate
Mazzaro could be a 3 WAR pitcher. There are a lot of possibilities here, but I think The Typical Idiot Fan has a point that you can’t say DDJ is a 4 WAR guy when he’s never once approached that level and is on the wrong side of 30. At this point, I think it is safe to say DDJ is what he is – a 2-3 WAR corner OF.
I think the better question is what can Mazzaro become.
I said he's a 3-4 WAR player, meaning his upside is 4 WAR. Nobody is pegging his true talent at 4 WAR.
And the big point with Mazzaro is that we don’t know if he’s capable of doing those things (more K’s and GB’s), and otherwise he’s not much more than a fringe fifth starter.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
He's a 4/5 starter already
with an improved GB rate and/or K rate (similar to what he showed in the high minors), he’d be a 3.
He's already a No. 4/5 starter?
He’s got a 5.04 FIP and 4.88 xFIP in 213 MLB innings, his whiff rates are below-average, his walk rate isn’t great, and his GB tendencies haven’t really come through in the majors.
If he continues to be what he’s been so far, he shouldn’t be in an MLB rotation.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
At 22-23 years old
And what do you think the average #5 starter in MLB produces?
I like how you don’t seem to project much GB or K improvement for a 23 year old despite solid numbers in the high minors, yet you are insistent on saying DeJesus has 4 WAR upside at 31 years old (something he has never done in his career). Spin away.
Huh?
Mazzaro is now 24, showed little improvement from 2009 to 2010, and continued to struggle with missing bats, one of the primary question marks surrounding him as a prospect. I’m not saying he’s a non-prospect, but I don’t know how you can argue that someone with ERA, FIP and xFIP marks near 5 is a solid 4/5 starter. I buy that Mazzaro can get more grounders, and combine that with a lower walk rate and you have some serious improvement, but I really worry about his ability to miss bats.
As for the DeJesus thing, that just confuses the hell of me. We have a player who’s put up multiple seasons of 3.3 WAR or higher, and as recently as last year he was on pace to put up over 4 WAR through 90 games before going down with an injury. You’re saying he doesn’t have 4 WAR upside? I’m not saying it’s likely, I’m saying that’s his upside. If a guy is likely to put up 2.5-3.0 WAR, he’s absolutely capable of putting up 4 WAR.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Again
What do you think the average #5 starter in MLB produces? I’m serious. I think a 4.5-5 FIP is definitely reasonable for the average #5 AL starter. What is the normal range for a back-end AL starter?
But the main point is that, odds are, he will improve as he gains experience. He has a strong minor league track record with solid scouting reports to back them up.
If we made definitive judgments on young pitchers after their first 200 IP we would whiff on quite a few pitchers that turned out to be very good. Not saying that is going to happen necessarily, but you seem to be discounting the possibility more than you reasonably should.
Yes, Mazzaro turned 24 about 6 weeks ago, but he has been 22-23 in his MLB experience, which is why I said “at 22-23 years old”. Thought that was kind of obvious.
I really don’t like the “on pace to put ###” stuff when discussing prospects. The fact of the matter is that DDJ was having a career year until he got hurt; it is unlikely he hits like that next year, coming off an injury, at 31 years old. That’s like me pulling out Mazzaro’s 5 worst starts to help shape him into something he’s not.
DDJ has an average 2.6 WAR the last 4 seasons and is beyond the age point where you can reasonably hope he has upside. Sure he may put up a 6 WAR last year, but for arguments sake lets go with the reasonable estimate of his abilities.
But what he did in 2010 wasn't totally out of line with his career
Once again, it’s absolutely unreasonable to argue that a 2.5-3.0 WAR player isn’t capable of putting up 4 WAR. And you seem to agree that he’s generally a 2.5-3.0 WAR player, so I’m kind of confused as to what you’re arguing with me about. I think you’re confusing one-year fluctuations in WAR with a change in his true talent- I’m saying that even as a 2.5-3.0 WAR true talent player, he’s capable of putting up 4 WAR with some luck.
A 4.8-5.0 ERA/FIP, which is what Mazzaro put up, isn’t far from replacement level. He’s just the kind of guy that’s only valuable as long as he’s making practically nothing, and that will no longer be the case after like his first year of arb-eligibility. I’m not saying Mazzaro can’t get better- with improved control and command he could presumably get more grounders and less walks, which would make a big difference obviously. But right now he’s a fringe fifth starter without a ton of potential barring some huge improvement in one of his offspeed pitches.
He’s a four-pitch righty with two pitches that are MLB average or better, but he saw his velocity dip in 2010 and his other pitches didn’t improve at all. Mazzaro isn’t significantly better than the kind of retreads that you can find quite cheap on the market, and he’s just not a particularly useful asset without showing some significant improvement. It seems like you’re making the assumption that he’s going to improve simply because he’s a young pitcher, when the reality is that there’s not much projection left with Mazzaro and most of the improvement can really come from refining his control and command. I just can’t get that excited about a fringe fifth starter with No. 4 starter upside.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Over the last 5 years
here is the number of pitchers who posted a FIP of 4.50 or better while pitching a minimum of 100 innings(both NL and AL):
2006- 71
2007- 68
2008- 85
2009- 81
2010- 117
Obviously this year is a bit of an outlier, the year of the pitcher seems borne out by these numbers, but I think a 4.50 FIP actually translates closer to a #3/4 starter than a #5, but I think a 5.00 FIP is very much a reasonable number for a #5 starter.
http://bullpenbanter.com
Mazzaro
I think you are seriously selling him short. His K rate wasn’t too bad in the minors. And he has made strides last year. He put together a few fantastic stretches with oakland.
I think he needs focus more and be willing to go after hitters more. Also seems like he isn’t very well conditioned. He has excellent velocity that goes very quickly.
BTW – KC is definitely a pitchers park. Whenever watching a game it’s a tossup whether the horrible D hurts more than the ballpark helps. That park just feels huge. Balls don’t seem to go as far as they should. Then again the OF’ers never get to it anyway and the IF is a horror show.
i believe part of why UZR doesn't like DeJesus
stems from DeJesus playing all 3 OF positions
as a starter gettting bounced around the OF all the time could get old and isn’t exactly easy adjustment for everybody.
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 12, 2010 2:44 AM EST up reply actions
Not 3 to 4 WAR
Think 2.5 WAR. Maybe 3 if he comes back from the injury well.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 11, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
I see the baseline as 3 WAR
With 4 WAR upside. That obviously means he could put up 2 WAR, or anything in between. But those pegging his upside at 3 WAR are joking themselves- he’s surpassed it many times before and was on pace to set a career high (4.1 WAR) last season before the injury.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Dejesus may have been the hottest OF commodity midseason for 2010
Then got injured and killed any trade value.
I recall teams like braves, boston having interest.
OMG
S_P_L_A_S_H !!!!
Royals in 2012 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol
A’s in 2011??
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 10, 2010 7:59 PM EST reply actions
surprised the Royals dumped him for
Mazzarro
unless they’re really high on Marks…. (can’t be)
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 10, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
Marks is better than he's getting credit for
People are getting hung up on irrelevant stuff like ERA.
I’m much sorrier to see him go, as an A’s fan, than Mazzaro, who was easily replaceable (indeed, has all but been replaced already with Iwakuma).
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Good point from Matt Klaassen on twitter
Shrewd move by Dayton Moore to wait and trade DDJ to one of the losers of the Werth/Crawford sweepstakes. #ohwait
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
Hmmmmm....
Could this be what Beane is basically doing?
Cheeky ol’ Billy Beane…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU_9zTD9B98&feature=related
Apparently there's an epilepsy warning on this video. But it's so incredibly cool.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 10, 2010 9:16 PM EST up reply actions
I think he keeps DDJ for the whole year (or if Oakland falls out of it he deals him midseason)
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
That might be his intention now
But what if the Angels whiff on everybody and suddenly are really desperate for an outfield bat. If they’re willing to overpay, Oakland’s got to at least listen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU_9zTD9B98&feature=related
Apparently there's an epilepsy warning on this video. But it's so incredibly cool.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 10, 2010 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
Oh for sure
But unless he gets blown away by an offer I don’t see him going anywhere
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
Follow me: Twitter.com/gobroks
Blown away?
The offer only has to be better than Mazzaro/Marks, which I don’t think is an unreasonable expectation.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that Oakland could deal DeJesus again, either. The outfield is basically set right now with Ryan Sweeney, Coco Crisp and DeJesus, but they still have Rajai Davis, Conor Jackson, Travis Buck, Michael Taylor and Jack Cust, and between Sweeney, Crisp and Davis they already have guys that can provide defense in center and right.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
There's gotta be less than a 5% chance Jackson is with the club. 0% for Buck.
Michael Taylor flat out sucks now. He could become good again, I suppose, but he’s certainly slated for AAA at this point.
Ryan Sweeney will probably be tendered a contract, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they let him go since he has bad knees and his defense seems to be slipping. Their outfield is far from set.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 11, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
I remember everyone thinking the same about the Holliday situation
and IMO the A’s lost overall on that one (they lost CarGo who was by far the best player traded).
The difference is neither Mazzaro nor Marks should be mentioned in the same breath as Gonzalez
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 11, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
well, best case, it ends up being cheap decent innings for KC over the next few years
Worst case . . .it’s Dayton Moore being Dayton Moore.
For a little bit of time, we almost managed to forget that his actual job is to build a quality MAJOR league team . . .
well i'll miss David for sure
he was a good player who was under appreciated by both local and national media during his time in KC. part or most of that was due to the suckage of the team.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
http://twitter.com/doublestix
Seems like a good deal for Oakland. I agree that DeJesus probably had more value after Werth and Crawford were off the market, and it seems like those are probably two of the first FA dominoes to fall anyway, so it’s hard to see why KC was so impatient. DeJesus fits the Oakland model of outfielders pretty well; he’s a good defender and has an acceptable bat, sort of a slightly better version of Sweeney.
Oakland seems to have too many OFs
This seems like a decent deal but I really don’t know why they picked up Crisp’s option for around $6 million. An OF of Buck, Carter, Davis, Crisp, and Dejesus doesn’t seem to be an ideal situation. If Carter doesn’t make the team I really question where they get any homeruns, considering their infield is fairly poor in regards to power.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 11, 2010 12:39 AM EST reply actions
5 guys for 4 spots
As long as they don’t bring back Cust or get somebody via FA, they can have a fairly regular rotation through the OF and DH. Plus, you can’t count on all of them to stay healthy all year, especially Crisp. Plus they can spell Barton with Carter every now and again, so they all could see significant AB’s with the current setup
If everybody likes you, then either no one knows anything about you, or you're dead.
Do they still have Sweeney?
If so, that would make it 6. I’m not sure why they would cut Cust as he may be their best hitter. If they do, I think that would be a terrible move for the team.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 11, 2010 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
Cust was only on a 1 year deal according to Cots
If everybody likes you, then either no one knows anything about you, or you're dead.
He's arb-eligible in 2011
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
And because he was in Sacramento for 6 weeks this year, he'll be arb-eligible an extra year
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 11, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Don't forget Taylor
if he has any value left at this point.
Not bringing back the team's best hitter would be pretty stupid
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 11, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Buck is terrible now
He’s getting nontendered. Carter looks ticketed for AAA (and rightly so; he’s terrible right now). Davis is a bench player. Right now Ryan Sweeney is the third starter, which is not great, but in all likelihood the team will make another acquisition.
Power is irrelevant. Having good players is relevant.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Also, anyone who wouldn't pick up Crisp's option at $6M needs to be sent to the loony bin
He was worth twice that in 75 games this year.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
Crisp wouldn't have got that on the open market
He is an injury prone player who would likely be had back at $3-4 million. I was very surprised that Oakland picked up the options on him and Ellis.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 11, 2010 1:50 AM EST up reply actions
Players who put up 3.3 WAR in 75 games can be had for 3-4 million dollars? News to me.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 11, 2010 3:04 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah I don't know if I agree with this
Crisp is a plus defensive CF that’ll provide solid pop, good base-stealing skills and an OBP between .330 and .345. If he’s healthy, he’s an above-average regular and possibly a tad more. With so little CF talent on the market right now, he definitely would’ve gotten more than $3-4M.
And why does Ellis surprise you? He’s a plus defensive 2B with decent on-base skills.
I think you’re underrating the defensive value that Crisp and Ellis bring to the table.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
Crisp
People also ignore the fact that this guy always misses time due to injury. In regards to Ellis, Orlando Hudson has always found a difficult time when he became a Free Agent. I really don’t see why the A’s would pay Ellis that much when there are better options for cheap and they can pencil him in to spend time on the DL.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 11, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
Well, you have to take risks somewhere
And I’m not surprised that they’d be willing to pay $5.25M for Crisp and $5.5M for Ellis- they’re both easily worth that. Now you have both of these guys on reasonable one-year deals that minimize risk.
Who’s better than Ellis at 2B on the FA market? Hudson, and that’s pretty much it. Who’s better than Crisp in CF on the FA market? Nobody, unless you really like the guys that Atlanta used in center last year (Melky and Ankiel yeah!).
I think you’re seriously underrating the value of these guys, particularly when they play positions that are pretty lacking on the FA market.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
Crisp, Ellis and now DeJesus are bargains at their respective prices and an OF that’s 2/3 Crisp and DDJ provides great defense if/while it’s healthy. Whether that adds up to a conteding team is something else, but the A’s just spent October watching a team that plays a few miles away win a WS with a good young rotation and the likes of Freddy Sanchez, Juan Uribe, Edgar Renteria, Aubrey Huff, Andres Torres, Cody Ross, etc. I don’t think Beane is seeing WS, but he might imagine that the playoffs are within reach with LAA and SEA looking shaky again.
by blackoutyears on Nov 11, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
I mean, I don't think it's ludicrous
If the offense is solid and the defense is good, a couple breakout pitching performances could be all they need to win 85-90 games. A rotation of Anderson, Cahill, Braden, Gonzalez and Iwakuma has huge potential, even if the offense lacks those true impact bats.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Beane
is playing pretty decent odds while working within his budgetary constraints imo. Now watch Crisp and DDJ both break something by May. lol
by blackoutyears on Nov 11, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Fine
As long as he plays more games than he doesn’t play (i.e. he played 75 last year), he will likely be worth more than the option. And prior to ‘09, he really didn’t have a huge injury history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU_9zTD9B98&feature=related
Apparently there's an epilepsy warning on this video. But it's so incredibly cool.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 11, 2010 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
I probably wouldn't pick up Crisp for 6 MM
the CF hole would have to be gaping large to be that desperate….
Crisp at 6 MM seems a litttttle high to me
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 12, 2010 2:39 AM EST up reply actions
The alternatives are Rajai Davis and Jody Gerut.
… I’m spending the $6M. Without even thinking about it.
"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.
That does not surprise me
You just spent $6 million for an injury plagued player coming off a career year who would not command near that on the open market.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 15, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Crisp has been worth $40.3M over the last four years.
And yes, he just came off of a career year. If you don’t think he’d command near a 1y $6M deal on the open market, well…
What guys are 'worth' on the open market isn't what they actually get.
If you take a look at what every team’s roster is ‘worth’, it is usually MUCH lower than what they actually get paid.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 16, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Stop trolling
Crisp got a 1-year $5.25M contract last year, after hitting .228/.336/.378 in 2009. He’s now coming off a .279/.342/.438 year in which he played more games and stole 30+ bases. If you don’t think he’s going to get a slight bump over last year’s contract on the open market, you need to get your head examined.
Trolling?
How the hell is this trolling? Just because someone doesn’t agree with you, it doesn’t give you the right to personally attack them.
Team’s rosters ARE worth MUCH lower than they actually get paid. That isn’t trolling, it is a fact. Also, only the A’s were dumb enough to give Crisp that initial contract when nobody else was bidding near that on OFs last offseason. You claim he played more games but he was still nowhere near 100 games in a career that continues to be plagued by injuries. Just because a team overpaid a player once, doesn’t mean they need to do it twice. Do you really think Barton would command near $19 million on the open market? Does Cliff Pennington get $14.6 million? How about Jack Cust getting $9.6 million? Is Adam Dunn going to get $15.6 million per year this offseason? How about John Buck? Is he going to get signed to a contract worth $11.6 million per year? Hopefully, you can see how guys ‘values’ aren’t tied to what they really get paid on the open market.
The A’s also paid Sheets $10 million guaranteed last year, even though he had no other offers near that amount. I think it is very clear that Beane and company have made many questionable signings while running their team in recent years (Giambi, Garciaparra, Sheets).
by King Billy Royal on Nov 16, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Can you give me one report where he was being offered close to the amount Oakland gave him?
Look at what other OFs coming off better years got paid, and then tell me that Crisp wasn’t overpaid at the time. What guys are ‘worth’ isn’t what they actually get paid but you choose to continue to ignore this.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 16, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
No, I'm not going to waste any more time with this.
This stopped being interesting five posts ago, and you’re just grasping at the next straw every time.
LOL
When you don’t have any evidence, I guess it is easier to make personal attacks against the other person.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 16, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
Crisp was coming off a 1.2 WAR season in just 49 games.
On the free agent market, that is easily worth 5.75 million.
That’s not counting the fact that Oakland usually has to overpay in order to attract free agents.
Now he is coming off a 3.1 WAR season. It’s easy to see why the A’s would pick up a 6 million dollar option. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand for you.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 17, 2010 1:15 AM EST up reply actions
WAR is not tied directly to what players get as FAs
Buck was worth $11.6 million last year. He just signed a deal worth $6 million a season. Why is it so hard for you to understand that a player’s ‘value’ is not what he actually get paid? Oh right……you are an A’s fan.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 17, 2010 7:20 AM EST up reply actions
Ok
Buck was worth $11.5 million last year per fangraphs, in what is a career year for him. He’s never produced anything close to his 2010 numbers in his career. A three year deal at $6 million per for him is acceptable to you?
http://bullpenbanter.com
I wouldn't have signed him to it
It isn’t acceptable to me. My argument is that a player’s ‘value’ isn’t tied to his FA worth. A player will often receive a lot less on the open market than what they were worth (i.e. Barton was worth $19.1 million but their is no chance he would get that as a FA). I am relieved the Jays let Buck walk rather then signed him to such a deal.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 17, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Well yeah, but that's not why Crisp is worth the $5.25M net in 2011
Anyone directly referencing his value marks from FanGraphs is simply weakening the stronger arguments of others.
Crisp is a plus defensive center fielder that’s good for a .330-.340 OBP and solid gap power. He flashed improved base-stealing ability in 2010, going 32-for-35 in only 75 games. He’s an above-average everyday center fielder in a market that’s totally lacking in that area. If he’s healthy, he’s a 3+ WAR player, which is obviously worth far more than $5.25M. And if he was always healthy, he would’ve gotten far more than that on the open market. But he’s not, so Oakland got him at a discount.
I’m not really sure why you don’t view Crisp at $5.25M as a fair deal.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 17, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
It's probably better than fair
But it does put reliance on others in the system. If he is out half the year and the backup scores you 2war then that and cocos 3war is fantastic.
But if you replace him with a scrub who puts -1war then you get only 2war out of that combo.
I really like Crisp and would sign him. He is one of those players where the d metrics understate his value
No one is arguing that a player's value is tied to his FA worth.
Do you see me arguing that anywhere in my original post?
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 17, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
It wouldn't have made for Toronto to sign Buck
with their catching situation. Anyway, I asked that question to clarify your stance there. Buck signed a deal for a little more than half his 2010 value. Crisp’s option at $6 million was less than half his 2010 value of $13.1 million. I can understand being against a 3 year deal for a guy like Buck at $6 million per since he has no track record anywhere close to his 2010 season. Crisp has only one year out of the last seven where he hasn’t produced enough to be worth at least $5.4 million. He’s very likely to be at least a break even investment, but also likely to provide surplus value. Why you’d be against picking up his option is beyond me, unless it’s strictly tied to your dislike of the A’s and Billy Beane.
http://bullpenbanter.com
I have no issue with the A's
I questioned why they picked up Crisp’s option and then traded for Dejesus which further crowds their OF. I used to be the biggest Beane fan however I think that he has not adjusted to the changing baseball landscape as well as other GMs, who have surpassed Beane. He has been unable to develop a feared hitter since Eric Chavez, and that is a huge negative in my opinion. Unfortunately, whenever somebody criticizes Beane for his poor FA signings (Sheets, Giambi, Nomar), they get slammed by A’s fans for being biased against him.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 17, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not even sure where to go from here
If you honestly think keeping Crisp and trading for DeJesus doesn’t upgrade the OF situation, I don’t know what to say. I don’t know how we define a “feared hitter”, but the A’s have developed Nick Swisher, Andre Ethier, and Daric Barton all of whom are very good hitters. They have also developed plenty of pitching in that time as well.
I could care less whether you like the A’s and/or Beane or not, I just think you tend to be a bit overcritical of them at times. This situation with Crisp is one of those of times, because I haven’t seen a logical argument from you as to why it was a bad move.
http://bullpenbanter.com
And I don't see how the outfield is overcrowded, really.
Sweeney in right, Crisp in center, DeJesus in left. Davis on the bench. Non-tender Jackson and Buck.
The problem isn’t the outfield. It’s the glut of 1B/DH players with Barton, Cust and Carter.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 17, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not even sure that is an issue
Carter could use another few months of AAA time, especially if they want to let him play in the OF at the MLB level. I’m also not sure Sweeney isn’t a non-tender candidate. Defense is his calling card and real value, his knee issues could really hurt him there.
http://bullpenbanter.com
That is a great defensive OF but where is the power on that team?
That OF will be lucky to hit 35 homers and they don’t really have any power in the infield. Hopefully the defense can make up for the lack of hitting on that squad.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 17, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Well, they're trying to sign Beltre
That would certainly add some pop to the lineup without hurting their defense.
I just don’t think you can sit back and dislike these moves because they don’t add power to the team- they still make Oakland better in general.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 17, 2010 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Congrats on cherry picking one example to make your asinine point.
You do realize that determination of dollars-to-WAR is exactly tied to the production of allthe free agents who signed, and the amount they signed for right?
We get it. You don’t like the A’s and their fans for some reason and you have a bone to pick with Billy Beane. I frankly don’t care and don’t understand why.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 17, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Wrong
I do not care one way or the other about A’s fans. In fact, I believe that Athletic Nation has the largest contingent of intelligent fans of any online baseball community. Some of the articles I read there are unbelievably informative.
However, you are wrong when you state that “that determination of dollars-to-WAR is exactly tied to the production of allthe free agents who signed, and the amount they signed for right?” Most FAs get a lot less or a lot more than they are worth depending on the circumstances.
by King Billy Royal on Nov 17, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
We're not talking about
most.
We’re talking about the production of all the free agents that signed. As a group, those free agents produced an X amount of WAR. The money they signed for divided by the total amount of WAR they produced is roughly 5 million dollars, presently. I’m seriously not sure why it’s so hard for you to understand this.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Nov 17, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Crisp's option being picked up is a no brainer
Last season he put up wRC+ of 130 with a UZR/150 of 17.3 in CF. In just 75 games he managed to acrue 3.3 WAR. Even if he reverts back to his career averages of 100 and 13.3 he’ll still be more than worth his salary.
David Lough
Any chance he gets a shot at starting in 2011?
by Jersey Transplant on Nov 11, 2010 10:28 AM EST reply actions
He gets a shot to make the club
But I don’t know if the Royals make that a legit shot. He’ll be the first option in the minors I would think.
If we stay with what we have we are looking at:
Mitch Maier, Alex Gordon, Jarrod Dyson (maybe), Andres Blanco, and Jordan Parraz are still on the roster. I think they sign (or try) to get Franceour. So…. not sure.
This was from John last year.
21) Justin Marks, LHP, Grade C+: 4.91 ERA with 129/48 K/BB in 125 innings between Kane County and Stockton, 124 hits. The ERA is deceptive; his K/BB and K/IP marks are strong. Sleeper for next year.
I sure hope this guy is more than just a bullpen arm in the long run. Other wise I don’t like this trade. But I think it all comes down to the Royals ability or inability to develop pitching at the MLB level. If Mazzaro turns into Davies 2.0 because we don’t develop him (Maybe 3.0 after O’Sullivan if he flops) then Oakland is the winner in my mind right now. I surely don’t have much faith in KC developing Mazzaro.
except Mazzaro doesn't really need developmental time anylonger
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 12, 2010 2:32 AM EST up reply actions
he basically is what he is
he’s a MLB back-end rotation guy that could def. still be valuable to the Royals
,,,
and they ABsolutely needed a RH starter with all those lefties in AA / AAA looming
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 12, 2010 2:33 AM EST up reply actions
It's not gonna help him
Oakland RH/LH: 95/93
Kansas City RH/LH: 104/100
Oakland’s a clear pitcher’s park, while KC is pretty close to neutral, leaning slightly towards the hitter.
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Well
He dominated the Indians and Twins in 2 starts last year. And whooped us… So that should help. :)
Doubt the stadium will have a huge impact on him
but KC’s infield defense will not be a positive impact.
Also, pitching in front of the Royals infield and not the A's infield is going to hurt him (if he does figure out how to induce GBs again)
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Nov 11, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa
You’re saying that an infield of Billy Butler, Mike Aviles, Yuniesky Betancourt and Wilson Betemit won’t be good on defense?!?
Ludicrous!
Baseball is my preferred sport. It should be yours, too.
I'm an editor for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
by Satchel Price on Nov 11, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
well, Betemit probably won't be starting next year
Getz at 2B, and Aviles at 3B, with defense in mind. that’s a hell of a lot better, though betenshitter at SS is still bad.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
http://twitter.com/doublestix
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
