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Thoughts on Young Pitcher Development


Thoughts on the Development of Young Pitching

A few weeks ago, someone asked me what I thought of how the Texas Rangers are developing young pitchers. I want to take that concept and talk about the development of young pitchers in general.

Here are some basic questions and my thoughts on them.

Star-divide

1) Is it better to draft pitchers out of high school or college?
     College guys, in theory anyway, are easier to project since they have played against a higher level of competition, are physically more developed, and likely more emotionally and mentally mature. On the other hand, many college pitchers are abused by coaches focused on the quick win. High school pitchers can be more difficult to project, especially physically, but many of them have higher upsides than the college pitchers. I don't think the separation between the two groups is as great as it once was. 20 years ago, the failure rate for high school pitchers was higher than it is now; things have changed, thanks to better scouting, the rise of the showcase circuits, and greater awareness on the part of coaches of all levels to manage workloads more rationally. That said, the failure rate of all pitching prospects from all sources is still high.
    If I were running an organization, I wouldn't ignore any source of talent. I'd be willing to draft both high school and college pitchers, leaning slightly to the college direction but not excessively. I think it is important to have diversity in a farm system, mix high school players with college players and people of all sorts of backgrounds.
     My ideology is to avoid ideology. I am a pragmatist.

2) How do we keep pitchers healthy?  
       I'm not sure anyone really has a good answe here. There are too many variables to account for. Pitchers get hurt for a variety of reasons: overwork over time, throwing too many pitches when tired in a specific game, mechanical flaws, simple genetics, bad luck. Any particular injury likely has multiple causes that interact. I'm not a physiologist and can't tell you what perfect mechanics look like, or what specific mechanical styles cause breakdowns, although I suspect that also varies from pitcher to pitcher, and that a delivery that helps one pitcher stay healthy might actually hurt another pitcher due to minor variations in their body and musculature.
      Obviously, working a pitcher too hard increases the risk. I do wonder if perhaps some teams have gone a bit too far restricting pitch counts. Building muscle memory and stamina requires the pitcher to actually pitch. But I'd rather err on the side of caution, and if I were running an organization, I would keep close track of pitch counts, especially for the younger arms, and would strongly emphasize to managers that a pitcher should be pulled at the first sign of fatigue or mechanical slippage during a game, no matter what his pitch count says. I would tailor workloads and pitch counts to the individual pitcher, based on his age, amount of athleticism, mechanical reliability and consistency, amateur workload history, and previous injury profile.
     Again, the plan would be focused on pragmatism and the needs, strengths, and weaknesses of the individual player, not on forcing each pitcher into an ideological or organizational pattern.


3) How rapidly should young pitchers be promoted?: 
     This is something that I do have strong feelings about.
    With few exceptions, I believe that most pitchers benefit from a full season at each level of the minor leagues, and that skipping levels or pushing pitchers too fast often backfires. For a high school pitcher, I would start them off in rookie ball after they sign. Depending on the specific pitcher and his background, for his first full season I would start him off in extended spring training, then send him either to Low-A or short-season A (depending on what affiliates my organization has) in late May or early June. They need a full year of Low-A and a full year of High-A, a full year of Double-A and at least a half year (preferably more) of Triple-A, before I would consider them for a large major league role. For a kid drafted at age 18, this would put them on the cusp of the majors at age 23 or so. Most Latin American prospects should be handled like the high school kids, perhaps even a bit more conservatively if they need time adjusting to North American language and culture.
    For a guy drafted out of a four year college, the timetable would depend on how good he was in college and what level of college ball he was at. Ideally I'd like him to get a full season of High-A and Double-A and at least a half year of Triple-A before being pushed into the majors. Even for the college guys I would rather advance them too slow than too quickly.
     There are exceptions, of course. If some kid is pitching like Dwight Gooden in 1983 and utterly blowing away the competition, the timetable can be moved up, at least at the A-ball levels. Highly advanced college arms could be moved more quickly. Clayton Kershaw didn't need much minor league time. But those would be the exceptions to the rule. Each level of baseball competition teaches different lessons than the last, and I strongly believe that most pitchers need a full exposure at each level before they are genuinely ready for the majors. I would rather have a pitcher spend too much time in the minors learning his craft than not enough.
     Basically, I think the Tampa Bay Rays have the right idea with how they handle their pitchers.

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As to part 3.

Can anyone think of examples where a pitcher was clearly pushed too fast and ended up succeeding anyway? Not like a Felix Hernandez where it was clear that he was so much better than any other pitcher in the minors, but a guy who was sort of “meh” and he ended up in the majors far too soon but ended up being a very good pitcher.

by Kenneth Arthur on Oct 7, 2010 4:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Dan Hudson

obviously has to prove it over the next couple years, but he looks like one of those guys

Usually I agree but Arcia could probably hit a bounced pitch out of the park right now. -KBR

by Archie A on Oct 7, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh, what

I get that Hudson was moved up quickly. What I don’t understand is the thinking that he was “sort of meh” in the minors and ended up in the majors too soon. Statistically, he was just short of dominant in the minors at every level, unless you think 10+ K/9 and 2.5 BB/9, with a 2.90 career ERA is “meh”.

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Oct 9, 2010 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

"Meh" in that

at the beginning of the year(2009), the scouting reports/grades/placement all had him as a #3/#4 at best, yet he flies through the minors. Even at the end of the year, most places still had his stuff at high end #3 at best.

I took from Humbled Fan’s post that he was looking for guys who weren’t top flight prospects a la Felix, not guys who were “meh” in performance.

Usually I agree but Arcia could probably hit a bounced pitch out of the park right now. -KBR

by Archie A on Oct 9, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wouldn't you say that he's a high floor player then

With a low ceiling? Clearly, his performance was well above mediocre, or “meh”, or whatever you want to call it.

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Oct 10, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Never said his performance was meh

I am actually a big fan of his, but like I said, I wasn’t basing my answer to his question off of performance. I actually saw his ceiling as higher than a #3, but that’s what all the “professionals” and “experts” considered him to be.

Usually I agree but Arcia could probably hit a bounced pitch out of the park right now. -KBR

by Archie A on Oct 10, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Zach Greinke

Looked like exhibit #23876.4 as to how terrible the Royals were at developing pitchers when they put blitzed him through the minors and into the major leagues a month or two into his second full pro season at age 20, and proceeded to implode the following year. He probably should be Rick Porcello’s role model right now.

by goldenblack on Oct 7, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

not a good example as to why he imploded

there were obviously other circumstances

R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9

by doublestix on Oct 7, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d never claim to be a psychologist, but it seems to me that being put on a freight train to the majors as a teenager, without ever having a chance to settle in at any level and with the hopes of a moribund franchise that hadn’t successfully developed a starter since the prior decade piled upon you, probably doesn’t do a whole lot to help frayed nerves and depression. Maybe if they slow it down with the kid, coaches at a minor league level notice his personal issues, or he feels more comfortable coming forth and dealing with them earlier.

by goldenblack on Oct 7, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure Greinke was ever "meh" though

He was an elite prospect throughout his entire minor league tenure and drew some crazy Maddux comps. Baseball Prospectus had their famous “I have seen the future of pitching, and his name is Zack Greinke” column when he was 21.

by deezle on Oct 7, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was definitely never “meh” as an individual prospect; guess I kinda blipped over that and focused more on the rushed without clearly dominating part. He had good but never outstanding K rates in his brief minors career, ditto HR/9, etc., with some deterioration in his (first) very short AA and AAA stints compared to A+. Was no reason, especially with that ballclub, to express him to the majors with not even one and a half years full season ball experience.

by goldenblack on Oct 7, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doc

Oh…and that Halladay guy. He’s doing ok now, right?

by goldenblack on Oct 7, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, but ...

… after he imploded the first time around, they did advance him level by level (in a manner of speaking) as he relearned how to pitch.

by whichthat on Oct 7, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sabathia

Sabathia was really rushed, IMO — they promoted him to the majors at age 20 after a half-year at AA. Seems to have worked out okay, though.

sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew

by alexwithclass on Oct 7, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Edwin Jackson and Jeremy Bonderman

Jackson’s 04-07 seasons (he was 20-23) seems like a rush to me. IMO, there’s nothing wrong to promote a guy in September to let him have a cup of coffee. However, Dodgers/Rays promoted him in 04-07 at a cost of his minor league experience, and it didn’t help his command and overall pitchability. This guy was an outfielder, Dodgers/Rays really should have spent more time teaching E-Jax how to pitch.

Jeremy Bonderman was drafted in 01. Have his first full major league season as a 20-year-old in 2003, after only spent 1 full season in A+ in 2002. He used to have awesome stuff but unfortunately fans could only see glimpse of his brilliance. He have spent majority of his big league service as a sub-par starting pitcher.

by CHY on Oct 7, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Both poor examples

Jackson is pitching well in the majors.

Bonderman has also pitched well, his problem has been injuries. Hard to make an arguement that he would have had a better season in 2006 had he been on a “normal” development path and played another 2/3 seasons in the minors.

by slurve on Oct 8, 2010 6:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

How is Jackson

a bad example of “a guy who was sort of "meh" and he ended up in the majors far too soon but ended up being a very good pitcher.”?

by blackoutyears on Oct 8, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Leake

too soon to see if he’ll be a very good pitcher though.

by deezle on Oct 7, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

some biases involved in answering these

we essentially use results to determine if a player was rushed or not. and there’s no way of telling if those guys would have succeeded anyway. on the other hand, a guy like mike leake who succeeds immediately isn’t put in that category.

i do think it’s more dangerous to rush pitchers than position players.

by T Pac on Oct 8, 2010 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

that guy steven strasburg, he needed at least another 2 years in the minors and the nationals rushed him to the bigs and he blew out his arm.

by THESWAMI6 on Oct 7, 2010 4:50 PM EDT reply actions  

whatever

I said there were exceptions. strasburg wasn’t rushed, he was one of the exceptions, and it had nothing to do with his injury.

by John Sickels on Oct 7, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was just joking john

He will back in 2012 as good as ever, dominating the NL

by THESWAMI6 on Oct 7, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks

I had asked you about that in one of your open threads. Thanks for addressing the topic, John.

by FTLOTC on Oct 7, 2010 5:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Diet...

is something that’s not talked about enough. To become a pro level pitcher it’s a whole different level of dieting…Most young pitchers have little to no clue how much it takes. I think the first thing an organization should do to any young pitcher they have hopes for is hand them a diet and exercise plan. Guys have rebuilt and reshaped their bodies in ways I doubt they could have imagined once they started taking that part of the game seriously.

Nolan Ryan, Tom House, and Randy Johnson all dedicate huge amounts of space to their diets in the literature they wrote on pitching. It’s not just “oh, don’t get fat and kinda keep an eye on what you eat” either.

by SenorGato on Oct 7, 2010 9:09 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm pretty sure

That every team, from little league on up, talks about diet. Especially at the NCAA or Travel team level. I highly doubt that diet and exercise advise is lacking, at least for american players.

by ADLC on Oct 8, 2010 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

talking about it and advising on it is one thing

actually doing it is another. what sorts of places are still open for dinner after a night game ends in kannapolis? how far does a $25 per diem go? scroll down to the nutrition section of this if you need further explanation of how doing it as a minor league player isn’t easy.

http://thunderbaseball.wordpress.com/2010/08/15/minor-league-baseball-investing-in-the-future/

by larry on Oct 8, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed

Dietary advice and strength and conditioning advice is very poor at the pro levels. Teams cut back on these “expenses” when I think it would do them a lot of good to invest more in their affiliated baseball players.

Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)

by Kyle Boddy on Oct 12, 2010 6:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Besides...

you know the reason most athletes write a ton about their diet/workout regime in their books?

Cause no one wants to read 300 pages of “I won a genetic lottery that allows me to do X better then most people”

by ADLC on Oct 8, 2010 2:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

2 and 3 seem to conflict

Your second point states that you aren’t in favor of forcing pitchers in an ideology/pattern, where number 3 is exactly that.

by slurve on Oct 8, 2010 6:50 AM EDT reply actions  

well in a way

Sort of perhaps, but even in number 3 I write that there are exceptions depending on the pitcher in question. . .a Strasburg or even a Kershaw can be pushed faster.

by John Sickels on Oct 8, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not Sure

I’m just not sure. For the Mariners I’ve seen many pitchers promoted who never played college ball. Mostly players not from the U.S. I’ve also seen them draft several pitchers from the college ranks and they still haven’t been called up. Career minor leaguers.

Jeff Wise
http://www.baseballhittingtipsonline.com

by Baseball Hitting Tips on Oct 8, 2010 9:01 AM EDT reply actions  

I believe you have to let the pitcher determine how fast you promote them. Meaning if a guy is physically dominating the competition you promote him until he is challenged to use the mental side of the game, or if a guy is so polished mentally that he is dominating the lower levels move him up so he has to refine his command to pinpoint accuracy. I just don’t agree with leaving guys at one level fo a full season if they demonstrate that they have nothing left to learn at that level.

by JFP on Oct 8, 2010 10:56 AM EDT reply actions  

Good post John

Thought-provoking and well thought out, as usual.

I agree with about 90% of what you wrote. The only thng that I would change a bit would be #3. I’m not as adamant as you are on pitching a whole year at each of the full-season leagues below AAA for high school guys, or at high A and AA for college pitchers. I think that it would be better to tailor the minor league path for each individual pitcher – just like you mentioned doing in your item #2. One thing that I would want to do with all of my high school pitchers in the minors would be to teach them how to deal with prolonged (at least 2 months long) adversity and failure. I don’t want a young pitcher (or hitter for that matter) that just sails through the minors without a hitch. Every player is going to have bad times and prolonged failure at some time in their major league career and I want my prospects prepared to deal with it. It can also be an issue with college hurlers, although not quite as often, because the vast majority of college pitchers have dealt with prolonged failure at some point in their college careers (usually early on).

So many times you see a rookie come up and great success in the first year or 2, only to hit a slump and never be able to fully recover back to anything close to their former level of success. IMO, a lot of the time the main reason for it is they couldn’t psychologically handle the idea that they could have a prolonged streak of failure. If I had a high school pitching prospect htat was tearing up the competition from day 1 of his minor league career, I would want to put some roadblocks in his path. I would start by forcing him to rely heavily on developing a new pitch for his arsenal and not allowing him to throw his best pitch(es) so often. I would also consider promoting him more quickly to a level where he starts to struggle.

"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner

by Fla-Giant on Oct 8, 2010 11:04 AM EDT reply actions  

Questions

Hey John, what’s your thought on limiting the season-long workload on pitchers (especially the high schooers)? Should teams worry about how many innings a teenager ptiches in a season? If so, should it be based on a set number for a given season, or should the teams also factor in how many innings the kid threw the previous year and not let him have to face a huge percentage jump? Is there a specific number of innings that no team should allow their young pitchers to exceed?

Also, what are your thoughts on going to a 6 man rotation, especially in the lower minors? I see that several teams have been doing this over the past few years, and I think that it’s an attempt to ensure that the prospects can’t face a big jump in the ininngs they pitch in a season. Does pitching every 6th day hielp or hinder a pitcher’s development?

"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner

by Fla-Giant on Oct 8, 2010 11:19 AM EDT reply actions  

The biggest example of #3...

Is Craig Hansen

Bring in Bard.
"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
Join the Lacrosse community The Lacrosse Blog

by bestbostonsports on Oct 8, 2010 11:56 AM EDT reply actions  

THIS.

Needs moar dingerz and moar Josh Donaldson.

by Blicks on Oct 8, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

My ideology is to avoid ideology.

Were that only the rule.

John, what do you think about the school of thought followed by teams, like the Rangers, where monitoring stress innings is more important than counting pitches?

by blackoutyears on Oct 8, 2010 12:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Point 2

You probably weren’t being literal with this,

first sign of fatigue or mechanical slippage during a game
but part of a pitcher’s development is learning what different levels of fatigue feel like and how to maintain one’s mechanics as they get tired. Though, of course pulling him too early is better than pulling him too late.

The only people who really know where [the edge] is are the ones who have gone over it.

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Oct 8, 2010 2:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Underworked pitchers.

If anything, I think pitchers are underworked. You have guys like Stephen Strasburg and Trevor Bauer who have unorthodox or very taxing workout routines in amateur ball, then they get to professional baseball and are forced to change because it’s too weird or they want to baby their investment. Physiological systems don’t like major change, and injuries can crop up as a result.

Biomechanical analysis work is coming a long way, but we need to work together to come to some solutions. It’s too closed off by groups like ASMI and so forth who won’t share their data openly.

Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)

by Kyle Boddy on Oct 12, 2010 6:18 AM EDT reply actions  

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