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Discussion Question: Smoak or Carter?

If you could have Justin Smoak of Texas or Chris Carter of Oakland for the next ten years, who would you pick?

Carter had the gaudier numbers in '09, but Smoak had the oblique injury that was at least a partial factor in his Triple-A struggles. Both draw tons of walks. Smoak has less present power but also strikes out less than Carter. Smoak is also a better defender. Both were born in December of 1986, so the age factor is the same.

Poll
Who do you want for the next ten years, Chris Carter or Justin Smoak?
Chris Carter of Oakland
598 votes
Justin Smoak of Texas
1566 votes

2164 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 66 comments |

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Comments

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Voted Smoak, but it's awfully close

The most disappointing thing is we could have had both of them on the A’s. A 3-4-5 of Smoak, Carter, and Taylor would have been sick.

RIP Nick Adenhart

by gatling on Jan 27, 2010 9:43 AM EST reply actions  

yeah

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones."
-BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 27, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

hindsight

and honestly… we don’t know how they’re all going to pan out. All very bright prospects, but none of them have even reached the majors.

by Daniel Berlyn on Jan 28, 2010 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Defensively speaking . . .

If we are accounting for defense, wouldn’t the answer be obvious?

I guess my question would be . . . Is Carter’s bat so far advanced over Smoak to make up for their defensive differences? My thought would be NO.

Give me Smoak.

2nd question—Does Smoak have Gold Glove caliber defense or will it just be above average?

The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. It reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again.

by Savoy on Jan 27, 2010 9:57 AM EST reply actions  

Our analysis of defense is not.

Just because moron voters give out the awards wontonly doesn’t mean that a measuring stick fo defense can’t be considered. If he wants to call it “gold glove” caliber defense, then fine.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 27, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

All-star games (and arguably MVP and Cy Young awards) are popularity contests, too, but they are used as scouting or analyst shorthand for well above average to elite performers.

by FI2 on Jan 27, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

This

“Gold Glove caliber defense” when referring to a prospect is pretty obviously another way of saying “one of the best in the league at his position.”

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Jan 27, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I know you guys are right

but that phrase has to come from the right person in order for me to take any notice. When John uses that phrase, I get the point. It’s just such a phrase that gets thrown around way to easily. It makes me think of some drunk in a bar who thinks a player is a good defender because he has won a Gold Glove or two. …and there are 9 of them given out in each league per year, which makes it (seemingly) easier to throw around a name who has won one than the more prestigious MVP and Cy Young Awards. He Who Causes Death To Flying Things has never won a Gold Glove, by the way.

by richieabernathy on Jan 27, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, the Gold Glove award is absolutely a joke. No argument there.

But the concept of a “Gold Glove fielder” is pretty well established, especially when discussing a player’s tools.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Jan 27, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

carter

I thought this would be much closer.

I think people may be underestimating exactly how good Carter’s bat is.

by John Sickels on Jan 27, 2010 10:40 AM EST reply actions  

Carter

I love him, been following him since short season ball in the White Sox org, but I voted Smoak: better defense, and less flame out potential. Carter has the greater upside, and more power, but Smoak just seems so much safer, like someone who’ll put up 120-130 OPS+ seasons like clockwork.

by gogotabata on Jan 27, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Carter

He has imporved offensively as he went up the ladder. Not that I’d expect more than .260 is his rookie year.

by faketeams on Jan 27, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m surprised it is this close (127/365 for Smoak at the moment), I think it’s an easy win for Smoak. I’d take Smoak in every facet of the game but power and he projects to have pretty decent power so I don’t think it’s a huge gap in the power tool either.

by jfish26101 on Jan 27, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

average

don’t see why its a forgone conclusion that Smoak will hit for such a higher average. They were both 22 in AA last year and Carter hit 16 points higher in 200 more ABS. And too say there isn’t a huge gap in the power tool is crazy. Aside from hitting a lot of HRs with metal bats Smoak hasn’t shown prestigious power. 15 HRs in 450 pro ABs doesn’t scream game changing power to me.

Only thing I see Smoak having clearly ahead of Carter is defense.

by ScottAZ on Jan 29, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Ryan Howard or Kevin Youkilis.

I think these are fair comps. As much press as Howard gets, Youkilis is a superior ball player. Over 10 years being an operative point, both will be 33 at the end of this period. Which one is more likely to peter out towards the end of that 10 year period? Carter’s skill set reeks of a 3TO or old player skills. Smoak’s seem to have a better chance at longevity.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 27, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t see Carter ever having the peek Howard has and I think Howard is overrated except for that one exceptional year he put up. I think Carter could be a 115-130 OPS+ with a couple peak years above that if he is lucky but, with D factored in, he just isn’t going to be a truly special player. Smoak probably wont be a truly special player either but I think he at least has a shot at being pretty special 1B.

by jfish26101 on Jan 27, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Just working on skill sets here.

Carter’s main strengths are huge power and patience, which is exactly what Howard brings. No, they may not have exactly similar home run numbers (especially not with league and park differences), but the skill sets will demonstrate a similar range of probability.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 27, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

???

Howard has a career 142 OPS+ over five seasons, a +140 last year. He strikes out a ton, but he also draws a lot of walks and has hit more HRs over the past 5 years then anyone. Factor in his defense metrics were greatly improved last year and it is hard to say he’s overrated

by ScottAZ on Jan 29, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Luckily, the A's couldn't care less about years 8-10 (or for that matter years 11-15)

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Jan 27, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

And the way today’s free agent markets are playing out, neither will any other MLB teams

by faketeams on Jan 30, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

safer bet

Carter seems like a riskier play, everyone seems pretty sure that Smoak will be solid, and the main question is what kind of power will he have. . .Carter had the huge year, if everyone thought he could replicate that in the bigs he would surely be a top five prospect, but most have him in the 15-30 range b/c he seems more likely to flame out

by SoCalSoxFan on Jan 27, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I dislike terms like that.

“More likely to flame out”.. sure… but how much more likely? A single percent would still be “more likely”.

I don’t think Carter is significantly higher a flameout risk than Smoak. I just think that if we’re talking about their skill sets, Carter’s come up shorter than Smoak’s over a 10 year span. I’d still expect Carter to be a strong performer during his prime in the majors, though perhaps not as glorious as some are predicting.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 27, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

actually i was thinking he is

one half of a percent more likely to flame out .. ..

his lack of defensive prowess could prevent him from getting multiple looks if he doesn’t hit right away. . .

Why else would a guy w/ a career 925 OPS in the minors not be a surefire top 5-10 prospect?

by SoCalSoxFan on Jan 27, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

There's a thin line between 1B/DH worth.

It’s not like he’s going from catching to DHing. HellAdam Dunn would gain like 15 runs by DHing.

by rglass44 on Jan 27, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I privately suspect that Chris Carter would likely gain like 15 runs from DHing too

I literally have never read a single positive comment about his glove that wasn’t phrased as a someday-hypothetical (like “he might be a decent LF once he gets used to the position” etc etc.). All the present-day reports are just epically horrible.

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Jan 27, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

I think this is closer than the % even though I went with Smoak. No one has mentioned Smoak’s huge platoon split last season (even though it was a SSS). The big advantage Smoak has is he is a 1st baseman rather than a DH, like Carter. Otherwise, I think their offensive output (Carter trading some AVG and BB% for more power) is going to be equal.

Follow me at http://twitter.com/JDSussman
Remember: baseball guys... baseball...

by JDSussman on Jan 27, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it's because people see those strikeouts as "massive holes in his swing"

When that’s not necessarily the case. In fact, people who have really seen/scouted him (like you) don’t really indicate there are huge holes. Strike outs, yes, but I’m not sure they’re of the “he’s going to get killed in the majors” variety.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Jan 27, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I took Smoak

I think if you’re going to be a career DH like Carter could very well be, you have to be Edgar Martinez or David Ortiz. I agree with gogotabata that Smoak is the “safer” bet, and I don’t think the difference in bats is enough to offset the difference in defense.

2010 Tigers deadweight contracts coming off the books:

Maggs (18M)
Willis (12M)
Bonderman (12.5M)
Robertson (10M)
Inge (6.6M)

2011 is the year of the Tiger!

by sportznut3081 on Jan 27, 2010 11:54 AM EST reply actions  

Smoak

Two big reasons (which have mostly been covered):

1) Defense. The difference here is fairly self explanatory. Smoak is pretty good and has the tools to be a plus defender at 1B. Carter has some decent defensive tools but bad hands/reactions.

2) Hitting for Average tool/skill. Although Carter improved his contact ability significantly this year his swing still has some major holes in it. I expect Smoak to regularly hit for ≥ .300 and he’s also a switch hitter who shouldn’t have any discernible platoon split.

Carter takes a huge cut and makes it work b/c he’s a disciplined hitter. I consider him a top 15 prospect. Smoak has a neat, compact swing that generates plenty of back spin and loft without sacrificing plate coverage. Smoak also has a good amount of natural power, though not on Carter’s level (ranked pure 80 by some). Smoak also has an impeccable approach at the plate. Smoak is top 10 for me.

So, theyre both excellent prospects and I want to say we’re splitting hairs… but, OTOH, Its Smoak for me, and not a really tough call, either. I’ll take Smoak’s appreciably better defense, AVG and OBP over the 10-15 more HRs.

by alskor on Jan 27, 2010 12:44 PM EST reply actions  

"switching hitter who shouldn't have any discernible platoon split"

That is, in fact, one of the question marks regarding Smoak. He hit .196/.268/.314 in Double-A and .231/.324/.338 versus left-handed pitching.

by richieabernathy on Jan 27, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Hitters see considerably less LHP than RHP. What is the ratio? I’m sure someone has the ratio over the history of baseball or something like that calculated. I’d bet hitters generally see 66-75% more RHP than LHP but perhaps I’m wrong, I’m never all that concerned when I see a hitter (especially a young hitter or a hitter who hasn’t been playing against pro competition long) struggling against LHP.

by jfish26101 on Jan 27, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

It's defs too small of a sample to claim he has a huge platoon prob.

I wouldn’t say, though, that his ability to hit from both sides of the plate means he FOR SURE can avoid a platoon issue.

by rglass44 on Jan 27, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Even if he hits .220/.320/.400 vs. LHP, just how many ABs are we talking about? 150 out of 500? Heck Carter’s total BA will probably only be .30-.40 points higher than that. It just isn’t that big of an issue, I think you are grasping at straws by trying to suggest this could possibly keep Smoak from becoming a special player.

by jfish26101 on Jan 27, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, OK. Yeah I can agree with that, some switch hitters actually give up one side or the other later in their careers due to struggles. I’m not sure if that will be a problem or not for Smoak but, even if it is, I’m not all that concerned about it.

by jfish26101 on Jan 27, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

For the record

I wasnt arguing that his switch hitting was the reason why. It is typically good evidence of that, but not always. The scouting is the reason why. He had no platoon issues in college and has a pretty swing from both sides of the plate.

by alskor on Jan 27, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Doesn't concern me at all

This isn’t Josh Bell. That was a SSS with an oblique problem on one side.

Scouting wise, he has a nice swing that makes tons of good contact with great plate coverage. He has always been projected by scouts as a .300 hitter.

Really grasping at straws to base a concern on his platoon split in a SSS when he was rushed to AAA with an oblique injury in his first full season as a pro.

by alskor on Jan 27, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Just mentioned this in reply to John's post, but I'll ask you here

What “holes” does Carter have? Serious question. Yes, he Ks a lot. But much of that comes from him being a power hitter who draws a lot of walks. What is he bad at doing when it comes to hitting? Curveballs? A good fastball? Hitting in certain counts? Is his swing fatally flawed? I haven’t heard anybody actually explain this.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Jan 27, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

He takes a big cut, has a two part swing that causes him major problems with offspeed stuff and breaking balls & he obviously has a lot of swing and miss in his game.
one scout had more concerns about Carter’s propensity to swing and miss than anything positive to say, noting that he’s “so big and strong, and it is absolutely enormous power. But if the ball is not in his immediate bat path, he misses.” The scout added, “He’s bad at seeing the slider, and bad at laying off the slider, and that’s a very tough combination to overcome,” admitting there are some fears that Carter will be just an up-and-down player in the end. “He’s going to keep putting up big numbers, but he has holes above and below the barrel, and lots of areas that big-league pitchers can go to get him out. With what the A’s have done with Jack Cust, you’d never want to say never, but I think when he gets to the big leagues, he’s just going to strike out a ton.”

http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9154

The Mexican Pacific League is a unique place to play. Filled with pitchers from the home country, there’s rarely any need to bring a radar gun to the game, as fastballs ranging in the 80s are the norm, but they can all spin a breaking ball. That’s led to a combination of dominance (four home runs in 28 at-bats), and embarrassment (14 strikeouts) for Carter, who still needs to adjust to non-fastball offerings, both in recognizing and lunging at secondary stuff.

http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9672
He is a dead red bat. He can handle the fastball and even some mistakes with other offerings but they have to be up. Sure he has a good hand pivot and a soft subtle approach but he shifts and lunges to the front side creating issue’s with pitchers who know how to change speeds and locate.

Carter’s sway-back rear hip load is very inefficient and causes him to get onto his front side too early. When it comes time to launch his swing, his weight has already shifted to his front side, leaving him vulnerable to good off-speed pitches down and away.

What remains to be seen is if he can make the necessary adjustments to cover all areas of the strike zone to handle Major League quality pitching, or if he will forever be a Five O’clock superstar. Carter has the athleticism and power to do damage in the Majors, but going forward the pitching will only get better and smarter and exploit the holes in his swing.
http://projectprospect.com/article/2009/09/25/chris-carter-scouting-report



He actually had huge holes in his swing going into 09. This was pretty widely reported and talked about frequently around here. He made a lot of adjusments in 09 to improve that, as previously he had major problems with offspeed and breaking stuff as well as better pitchers (which added to the perception he’s a mistake hitter). He’s still something less than good with that, though.

Its not a huge concern, and his natural power makes up for a lot of it… but we’re comparing him to a pretty elite prospect here w/ Smoak.

by alskor on Jan 27, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

So, to be clear, this is different than the normal correlation between power and Ks

Carter has some problems with his swing that leave him vulnerable to a few things.

by alskor on Jan 27, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

so you're saying

a 22-year-old who hit .337/.435/.576 in Double-A in ’09 before getting promoted and going on a homerun tear in the PCL playoffs has room to improve? Sweet.

by richieabernathy on Jan 27, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, ty to stay with me here...


STATS – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - SCOUTING

MINOR LEAGUE PITCHING – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - MAJOR LEAGUE PITCHING

by alskor on Jan 27, 2010 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know if it's "Room to improve" as much as "necessary areas to improve"

I get what alskor is saying. Right now, Carter is good enough with what he’s good at to compensate against lesser pitching. When he reaches the Majors, he’ll face a lot of guys who can just attack his (apparently) gaping-hole weaknesses. If he can’t patch those holes up, at least to some extent, he’s going to have a hard time ever utilizing his strengths because pitchers will completely avoid those.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Jan 28, 2010 2:48 AM EST up reply actions  

have the guys at

project prospect earned the respect to use them as a source? I’m asking b/c I’m not too familiar w/ the site. Sure, they can drop some nice verbage about a guys swing and point to certain things and say that will be his downfall, but have they said any of this about a guy and been right?

I mean, you could break down video on Ichiro and say he has too much movement to succeed, or Sheffield’s bat wiggle will be his downfall, but good/great hitters do overcome these things. There is not one perfect swing that everyone is trying to replicate, that’s kind of the beauty of hitting.

by SoCalSoxFan on Jan 27, 2010 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

As an A's fan...

If Texas offered Smoak for Carter, I’d take it in a heartbeat. Smoak has a defined position, and is still a very very good hitter. I’d take that over a HR/K guy with no set position or defensive value.

Sometimes the impossible can become possible if you're AWESOME!

by ZeroIndulgence on Jan 27, 2010 1:20 PM EST reply actions  

I talked to a scout this last week who told me he thinks Smoak is Teixiera junior...

He said expect him to get called up at some point this year and to stick.

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Jan 27, 2010 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

Honestly, 2007 Jack Cust might be a good idea of what a typical Carter year would look like.

Maybe with a little more in the AVG department, and less walks.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Jan 27, 2010 2:55 PM EST reply actions  

Smoak has question marks too

His power was nowhere near carter’s level last year, it was a disappointment. Carter probably needs more AAA time but in double A where he spent the majority of his season last year he cut down his ks to 24.3 % which isn’t terrible. Carter isnt a bench out there either. He has the athleticism to at least be average at first.

by jarjets89 on Jan 27, 2010 3:08 PM EST reply actions  

Being average at first base doesn't have much to do with athleticism

First basemen don’t really get a lot of opportunities to really flex their athletic muscles, so to speak. Most of it is being reliable and surehanded enough to make a ton of routine plays with very few mistakes.

Shawn Spencer: "I’m receiving a transmission from your husband. Really more of a voicemail, if I'm being honest. A status update. Perhaps a twitter."
Burton Guster: "I believe it’s called a tweet."
Shawn Spencer: "There’s no way I’m saying that."

by PaulThomas on Jan 27, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

it does help with range though. I was responding to people who think he is only a DH, which isnt fair. Most only DH only guys are really slow and fat, or are too injured to play the field

by jarjets89 on Jan 27, 2010 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Smoak is the obvious choice here.

He should hit around .300 on a regular basis, with solid plate discipline and 25-30 HR power. He also looks to be pretty solid on defense, giving him the clear edge over Carter. That said, as I stated further up in this thread, I think the majority of people on this site underrate Carter’s bat. He’s got huge power, takes a lot of walks, and has shown the ability to hit the ball hard consistently. He’s gonna strike out, but he’s no Jack Cust in that department. He won’t hit .300, but there’s no reason he can’t consistently hit in the .265-.275 range with 35+ Hr’s annually. I guess i’m in the minority on this one, but I just think it’s a mistake to label him another Jack Cust or Rob Deer. He’s a much better hitter then either of those guys.

by JPShark on Jan 27, 2010 5:07 PM EST reply actions  

No, I know Cust was, and hopefully still is

a valuable player. The guy manages to put up excellent offensive numbers in the hitter hell that is the Oakland Coliseum. That’s not something many manage to do. I just think Carter clearly has what it takes to be a better hitter then Cust, that’s all.

by JPShark on Jan 27, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Both could have been A's...Both could have been Rangers too
The minor league leader in total bases and extra-base hits (and runner-up in home runs) was High A first baseman Chris Carter, whom Oakland acquired from Arizona in this winter’s Dan Haren trade. The reason I note this is that, two weeks before the Diamondbacks sent Carter to Oakland in mid-December, they’d acquired him from the White Sox for Carlos Quentin — shortly after Chicago was reportedly prepared to trade Carter to Texas for Akinori Otsuka, before the White Sox reviewed Otsuka’s medical records and withdrew the offer.

Jamey Newberg

by SaltyDawg on Jan 28, 2010 1:12 AM EST reply actions  

voted smoak

alot more well rounded. and the power is plus just not plus plus in my opinion.

Fresh since 1822

by kmacsm on Jan 29, 2010 2:51 AM EST reply actions  

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