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Seattle Mariners Top 20 Prospects for 2010

Top 20 Seattle Mariners Prospects for 2010

All grades are EXTREMELY PRELIMINARY and subject to change. Don't get too worried about exact rankings at this point, especially once you get beyond the Top 10. Grade C+/C guys are pretty interchangeable depending on what you want to emphasize. Complete reports on these and over 1,000 other players will be in the 2010 Baseball Prospect Book, now available for pre-order, shipping on February 2nd!

Star-divide

1) Dustin Ackley, OF-2B, Grade A-: Love the bat, has the type of skills needed in a future batting champion. Can he really play second base though?

2) Michael Saunders, OF, Grade B: I don't like him as much as some people do. I see him more as a solid .270/.330/.450 type than a future star, but he should have a long career.

3) Gabriel Noriega, SS, Grade B-: I have issues with his strike zone judgment, but am intrigued enough with his youth, glove, and overall tools to cut him some slack at this point. Could go up to B+ next year, or down to C if he can't hit at Clinton.

4) Alex Liddi, 3B, Grade B-: High Desert inflates his numbers, but I think he made some real progress. He looks like a better player to me at this point than Triunfel. Double-A will tell us a lot.

5) Carlos Triunfel, SS-3B, Grade B-: Injury mulligan. . .but at some point the numbers have to start living up to the hype. Doesn't turn 20 until February, but he looks more like a third baseman to me than a shortstop.

6) Nick Franklin, SS, Grade B-: Very intriguing middle infielder from the '09 draft, could make a great DP combo with Noriega.

7) Michael Pineda, RHP, Grade B-: Pitched great at High Desert. Main concern is health. I know scouts aren't wild about him, but I prefer him to the tools goofs on the rest of the list. However, I have enough concerns about his elbow to keep him at a B-. If he's healthy I think he's going to surprise people.

8) Mario Martinez, 3B, Grade C+: Tools guy couldn't hit Midwest League pitching due to poor strike zone judgment. Young enough to overcome this, but don't let him anywhere near Greg Halman. Glove at third is a big asset.

9) Dan Cortes, RHP, Grade C+: Control went backwards big-time last year, cutting into his grade. Beavis and Butt-head public urination antics don't go over well either. Ceiling remains high if he gets his head on straight.

10) James Jones, OF, Grade C+: This one may surprise people, but this is a tools guy I would bet on. Former Long Island University pitcher has tremendous athleticism, terrific makeup, and hit well in his pro debut. Need higher-level data, but absolutely a player to watch.

11) Adam Moore, C, Grade C+: Not going to be a star, but can hit .250 with a bit of power and good ability to shut down the running game. Will have a long career.

12) Ezequiel Carrera, OF, Grade C+: Speed demon, hits for average, draws walks, good glove, no power, future reserve outfielder but a useful one.

13) Dennis Raben, OF, Grade C+: Missed the entire year with injury. Low batting average slugger with walks when healthy.

14) Mauricio Robles, LHP, Grade C+: Live-armed lefty acquired in Washburn trade did well in limited action at High Desert. Undersized but interesting.

15) Kanaoke Texeira, RHP, Grade C+: I like him more than most people. Gets grounders with fastball/slider combination, doesn't have ceiling of some of the guys below him but a better bet to reach his floor as a middle reliever.

16) Johermyn Chavez, OF, Grade C: Borderline C+ due to power potential, has a higher ceiling than some of the guys ahead of him, but I have massive concerns about his ability to handle breaking stuff at higher levels. Could hit .300 with 30 homers at High Desert and go backwards with his genuine skills.

17) Julio Morban, OF, Grade C: Enormous potential, but currently has no command of the strike zone.

18) Greg Halman, OF, Grade C: Possibly the best set of overall tools in the minors. However, his ability to use these tools is, um. . .extremely limited to put it kindly. Makes Pedro Cerrano look like Ted Williams.

19) Mike Carp, 1B, Grade C: The Garrett Jones of the year 2013.

20) Maikel Cleto, RHP, Grade C: Great arm, but poor numbers in a limited sample size caused by visa issues. Let's see what he can do in a full season.

OTHERS (Grade C): Steve Baron, C; Tyler Blandford, RHP; Andrew Carraway, RHP; Jhmardy DeJesus,1B; Joshua Fields, RHP; Steve Hensley, RHP; Nick Hill, LHP; Kenn Kasparek, RHP; Brian Moran, LHP; Ricky Orta, RHP; Edward Paredes, LHP; Carlos Peguero, OF; Guillermo Pimentel, OF; Rich Poythress, 1B; Kyle Seager, 2B-3B; Matt Tuiasosopo, 3B; Anthony Varvaro, RHP.

This is a tough organization to get a handle on. They have a lot of guys with huge upsides, but big questions about their actual skill levels. Thus, a list put together by a traditional scout is going to look different than someone going by sabermetric performance. I take a hybrid approach with a sabermetric lean, and thus this list might not satisfy anyone except me. Such is the risk of the business.

I love Ackley, but want to see how he adapts to second base. Saunders is nearly ready and I think he'll be a solid player though not a star. After them, things get muddled quickly, with a bunch of tools guys with erratic performance records and/or small sample sizes at lower levels. High Desert introduces all kinds of distortions. Even after you adjust for the park, league, and age factors, you still wonder if you've adjusted enough. My rankings of Liddi, Triunfel, and Pineda all bear the scars of this process combined with personal observation.

There are some intuition calls here, namely with Pineda, the high and possibly reckless ranking of James Jones, as well as the relatively low ranking of Chavez. Long time readers know that I tend to be conservative, but sometimes I'll play a hunch. And as the book writing process grinds onward towards conclusion and my brain turns to mush, hunches start knocking around the fevered neurons more often.

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Saunders

While I agree Saunders probably isn’t going to be a superstar, I think he’s better than a B-. From everything I’ve read, if he’s relegated to LF (b/c of Seattle CF-RF situation) he’ll be a pretty valuable asset there defensively. Also I think you’re selling him a little short in the power and average departments John. His ISO showed improvements in each of the last 3 seasons, he’s just turned 23 and he’s a big kid, I think he could hit for a little more power than you give him credit for. Also, with his speed and also improving K rate (I’m a sucker for players who move up levels and get better at the same time) I think he can keep his average up a little higher. To be fair the declining BB rate is a concern, so that tempers expectations.

So yeah, I can see him not be a superstar but I just think he’s as good and probably a better prospect than the likes of Josh Reddick and Austin Jackson.

by jayjay on Jan 11, 2010 8:10 PM EST reply actions  

That opinion...

is formed by people who don’t appreciate the value of defense. Saunders is a premium defender at an outfield corner. If he hits what John thinks of as his ceiling, his defense makes him a 3.5 or 4-win player.

by slamcactus on Jan 12, 2010 1:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Saunders

I really have never understood the constant under valuing of Saunders personally, especially by Sickels. He keeps improving himself as a player and every time he seems hesitant to ever really admit him becoming better and having the potential to be really noticed. This isn’t a knock on Sickels cause I appreciate his views even though like most I’ll disagree. It’s just a constant I’ve seen with him on Saunders in particular that maybe rubs me the wrong way after a while

by hybrid on Jan 11, 2010 8:15 PM EST reply actions  

saunders

I originally had Saunders as a B, but then I started thinking about the times I’ve seen him play. . .he’s had significant problems with strike zone judgment and contact when i’ve seen him and that made an impression on me. Perils of in-person scouting perhaps.

by John Sickels on Jan 11, 2010 8:16 PM EST reply actions  

re:

I’m curious, at what level(s) did you see him? Maybe you’re on to something I guess, or maybe he just had some bad games. He really seemed to improve in that area in AAA last year, but apparently was considerably overmatched in the majors. Maybe I’m too forgiving of his age/experience, but I just don’t put much stock into his first cup of coffee in the majors.

by jayjay on Jan 11, 2010 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

saunders

Midwest League, Pacific Coast League, and major leagues. When I’ve seen him, he’s done well against guys with mediocre stuff but had problems with pitchers beyond that.

It is entirely possible I have just seen him on bad days…people who have seen him more may have a different impression. I’m not saying he’s a bad player, far from it. Remember a grade is a shorthand.

by John Sickels on Jan 11, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I for one got concerned when Mariners coaches pulled him at the end of August

To work on his swing almost full time with coaches. His step towards the plate when he was swinging allowed pitchers to pitch him predominantly inside. He didn’t adjust well to being pitched inside with hard stuff and he was only used sparingly for the remainder of the season. Hopefully he’s worked on that in the offseason, or else he’ll be in Tacoma in April

by Scrupio on Jan 11, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Word on the street is that Ackley may make a good second baseman sooner rather than later.

I’d also put Moore a bit higher, both Seattle regimes have been tremendously high on him.

Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!

by lailaihei on Jan 11, 2010 8:23 PM EST reply actions  

Is that a good reason to rank someone higher though?

I have no ability to judge a catcher’s glove, so I can’t comment on that, but the bat doesn’t seem that special. He had two good seasons in the minors, both with a crazy high BABIP for a catcher, and he wasn’t really young for the levels. I mean, I hope he’s all that but it doesn’t really look like it now.

De Gutibus non disputandum est

by Bearskin Rugburn on Jan 11, 2010 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Last year Rob Johnson had a .274 wOBA and was worth ~0.8 WAR/600 PAs.

CHONE projects Moore to have a .304 wOBA despite projecting a .297 BABIP when his career BABIP is a much higher .322. He’s a good contact hitter and tends to keep the ball lower to the ground rather than hitting a ton of flies, which is indicative of a high BABIP.
A guy who can step in and be about league average I think is worth at least a B-. He obviously has room to grow, as well, and a I don’t think it’s out of the question for him to have a string of league-average years at the plate, which puts him in the 3+ WAR/600 range.

Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!

by lailaihei on Jan 11, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

WAR is WAR. I was just using Rob Johnson as an example because he hit so poorly yet was still above replacement level.

Adam Moore is easily a better hitter, has more offensive upside, and is more valuable at the moment. Projecting Moore for 2010 it’s hard to give him less than 1 WAR. Moore’s has good contact skills, good plate discipline, and enough power to be a mediocre offensive catcher.

Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!

by lailaihei on Jan 11, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

saunders

Here is the actual comment for Saunders.

Saunders looks great in uniform: strong, agile for his size, a bit of speed. I’ve seen him play since 2006 and have never been massively impressed with his ability to handle pitchers with plus stuff. His production has usually been just okay for context, though he was safely above average in the PCL last year at +21 percent OPS for Tacoma. This was an improvement over the +14 percent mark he put up in the Southern League in ’08. On the other hand, he was overmatched during his major league trial, showing significant problems with plate discipline. On the third hand, he often struggles in his first look at a new level, before making adjustments. Injuries have been a problem for him and have likely slowed his development to some extent. Saunders is a solid defensive outfielder at either corner and can play center in an emergency, though I think his speed is a little short for long–term play up the middle. I don’t think he will become a star, but I can see him as a .260-.280 hitter with 20-homer power at his peak. Other people see more in him than that. Grade B-.

by John Sickels on Jan 11, 2010 8:30 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks

for taking the time to post that and comment

by hybrid on Jan 11, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

Agreed, thanks a lot for posting that John!

by jayjay on Jan 11, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't hate the B- ranking...

I think his strike zone judgment needs improvement before he can get a solid B. He can be a major league regular right now because of his defense, but his bat is still a project.

Hey everyone, Follow me on Twitter!, check out My Baseball Blog, and Last.fm me!

by lailaihei on Jan 11, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Am I wrong

…in thinking that your description makes him sound a lot like Mark Teahen?

If I had a rocket ship, I'd never want to land.

by dman126 on Jan 12, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Teahen

Teahen also popped into my mind after reading the description, but I think Ryan Church is probably a better comp. Teahen has less power than John is expecting from Saunders (.030 lower SLG) and is a bad defender. Church is a good defender with a more similar overall line. Xavier Nady is another guy with a pretty similar line (though he is not much of a defender).

Church career: .272/.345/.441
Nady career: .280/.335/.458
John’s expectation for Saunders in his blurb: .270/.330/.450

by mymrbig on Jan 12, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

see

See, now that is useful to me.

After all the comments are written and preliminary grades given, I go through and make a list like this and see how is missing, to make sure that everything is balanced correctly. That is how I spot guys who have been under or over-ranked intiially. This list shows that yes, I may in fact be underrating Saunders as a B-, because I do consider him a candidate for the top 50 and to get him on there I might have to bump him to a B.

So thank you for a useful and constructive post. This is the kind of feedback I need.

by John Sickels on Jan 11, 2010 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Well for one

John’s ranking of the pitchers is on an entirely different scale than how he ranks the hitters. He’s only had to say this about 1,000 times. As for the hitters on the list, yes I would take most if not all of them over Saunders. He’s been overhyped for too long, I wouldn’t be surprised if he goes down a similar career path of Jeremy Reed… I think he should be better than that offensively, but I’ve always seen him more as a 4th OF type.

The 2008 Rogelio Moret League Fantasy Baseball Champions!

by The Congo Hammer on Jan 11, 2010 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Hm can you actually back that up with more than an opinion?

by hybrid on Jan 11, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

whats the biggest difference between say

Josh Donaldson’s B-
and Adam Moore’s C+

?

thanks

I'd rather have Nick Punto playing 3B and Felipe Lopez playing 2B

than Punto playing 2B and Kouzy, Crede, DeRosa or Glaus playing 3B.

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jan 11, 2010 9:54 PM EST reply actions  

?

Um….I’ve seen them both in person and I think Donaldson is slightly better….better plate discipline for certain.

by John Sickels on Jan 11, 2010 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

This...

… is where my handy-dandy C++ would come in. ;)

by The Colonel on Jan 11, 2010 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

speculating here

But I think, at least in Morban’s case, KG has trained his audience to expect recent big bonus IFAs to be highly ranked, and thus they are more prone to react when that pattern is broken.

by aCone419 on Jan 11, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

While I do have some disagreements with the list Robles may very well end up being a reliever.

Which hurts his value, I think Noriega is ranked too aggressively same with Liddi.

You got slurved!

by Slurvey on Jan 11, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

This isn't KG's blog.

I’m not going to piss all over Sickels in his home.

I think the other reason is now that we’ve seen one person do it, then two, we’re just shrugging our shoulders and giving way to the inevitable. Gabriel Noriega is the new Tyson Gillies. Seems like there’s always got to be one.

There are lots of things I could say about this list, but I think I turned my interest away during the prospect list discussion threads.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 12, 2010 3:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I didn't see the reaction here, but fans that know the system should know that it's justifyable.

I wouldn’t put him quite that high, but he’s definitely top 10 for me. Probably 6-7ish.

by JonBBT on Jan 12, 2010 4:08 AM EST up reply actions  

My only slight issues with this list

Would begin with Liddi being ranked so high. I’m skeptical of his bat outside of High Desert, and I have doubts that he’ll even so much as sniff that .414 BABIP outside of that environment.

I also don’t like Franklin that high, to be honest. The reports have been good on his defense, but what I’ve heard about his bat scares me. It’s been said that he’ll have to rework his swing to be a major league hitter (don’t remember where I heard this though).

On the flipside, I think Moore is too low in the list. Moore looks like a good bet to be an at least average catcher, which has it’s value. He’s definitely top 5 for me in this system. I’d definitely rank Poythress higher, as well. He’s probably 8-11 in my opinion. Some considered Poythress the second best bat in the draft behind Ackley. I was surprised that he fell as far as he did.

me so cool

by Humongo on Jan 12, 2010 4:17 AM EST reply actions  

hard to say with Liddi

Yeah, he’s not the hitter he was in the Cal League . . .but considering he played the two previous years as a teenager in the Midwest League, nobody’s really sure as to the extent that his production and present skills are linked.

The easiest answer? The truth is somewhere in the middle. Not sure he’ll hit for average, but I buy into his power development.

by mrkupe on Jan 12, 2010 7:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Jones/Hill

Can’t say I’m the biggest fan of this list but I definitely like the aggressive James Jones ranking.

John, why no love for Nick Hill? Given his limited history, I thought he looked pretty good in a few late-season starts in AA last season. Is it because you see him as more of a reliever than back-end starter?

by ThomasG on Jan 12, 2010 8:37 AM EST reply actions  

Hill

I actually like Hill, and his review in the book is positive. He may end up getting a C+. I see him more as a reliever.

by John Sickels on Jan 12, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Rich Poythress

I think Poythress is the biggest exclusion from the Top 20; I see him on the other names list below, but there’s no way he’s below the Dennis Raben line, in my mind. His college power was legitimate and he profiles well as an old-player-skills candidate, similar to Raben, but with higher ceiling, due to physical prowess/college performance.

by jalopy37 on Jan 12, 2010 2:45 PM EST reply actions  

Saunders

John, while I disagree with your evaluation of Saunders, if you really think his likely ceiling is .270/.330/.450, then unless you think his defense will be excellent, I think B- is right.

Don’t get me wrong, I think he will be a little better than that, but if you think he is Ryan Church (.272/.345/.441 career), Jody Gerut (.264/.329/.436), or Xavier Nady (.280/.335/.458), then maybe you should stick with a B-. Nothing wrong with any of those guys, all have started at times in the majors and are good complimentary players, but never stars.

I look at Saunders and see a guy who over the last 3 seasons has done the following (age, level, BB%, K%, ISO):
2007: 20, A/AA, 12%, 30%, .170
2008: 21, AA/AAA, 10%, 30%, .180
2009: 22, AAA, 9%, 19%, .234

So he’s been young for every level, he has moved up a level every year, and he has improved or held steady every year.

If he struck out 30% of the time in AAA this year, I think the B- would have been justified. But with his improved contact% and power and the fact that his BB% has held pretty steady, I would have gone B, but maybe noted some upside beyond that based on his defense and emerging power (if he can maintain it for more than 1/2 season).

But you’ve got to go with your gut, otherwise it wouldn’t be your blog!

by mymrbig on Jan 12, 2010 4:06 PM EST reply actions  

This is probably too late

If Ackley is able to stay and play 2nd would you be comfortable moving him up to an A?

by coreyjro on Jan 14, 2010 5:00 PM EST reply actions  

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