Martin Perez OR Stephen Straburg
by Mets2k9 on Sep 30, 2009 6:11 PM EDT
88 comments
Question is pretty straight forward. Which would you want to build your franchise around?
To fill the rest of this, I just want to say that Anthony Randolph is far and away the most fascinating figure I have ever seen. He looks like a Greek God, but has the mentality of a prepubescent girl who just got her period. He's like a mixture of a car accident and a russian model orgy: no matter what aspect you're watching, you just can't look away.
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“To fill the rest of this, I just want to say that Anthony Randolph is far and away the most fascinating figure I have ever seen. He looks like a Greek God”
No homo?
by nyy601 on Sep 30, 2009 6:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Very much homo
I just explained to my girlfriend my fascination with Anthony Randolph. I might be single now
by Mets2k9 on Sep 30, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
by flipgatey3 on Sep 30, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone make an argument for Perez over Strasburg
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Sep 30, 2009 7:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hereby name you scout of the year.
MLB Bonus Baby - A Draft Blog - Author
by Andy Seiler on Sep 30, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Don’t bother topping that.
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Sep 30, 2009 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think it can be done
This one clearly has to go to Strasburg.
The only possible reason I could even think of is if you really disliked Strasburg’s mechanics. Im not a huge fan of his mechanics, actually, but my concern there doesnt come remotely close to making up the huge lead Strasburg has everywhere else. The kid is sitting 98-100. Sitting. How could anyone vote for Perez here?
by alskor on Sep 30, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you mean other than the fact that Strasburg has yet to throw 1 professional inning?
by Mets2k9 on Sep 30, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand that argument
By that logic, shouldn’t every minor leaguer be the choice as the better franchise player over Strasburg?
by mg050369 on Sep 30, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's clearly not my point at all
and you are well aware it’s not.
by Mets2k9 on Sep 30, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's an insightful summation of your point
Strasburg clearly has more talent and the higher ceiling. ARL or simply throwing a professional inning should in no way close the gap between the two pitchers; at least not on its own.
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Sep 30, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, its not your point
Its the major flaw in your logic.
Strasburg dominated a very high level of competition. Dominated.
by alskor on Sep 30, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't know if this is so true
Yes he dominated but not in a strong division at all. And when they played
Virginia in the playoffs he didn’t look nearly as dominant.
by son.of.sourman on Oct 1, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strasburg...
is like nothing anyone has ever seen before. Sitting upper nineties with his fastaball, and three other potential plus to plus plus pitches is absolutely amazing. Even Roger Clemens never had this kind of stuff. That’s not even mentioning his make-up and mound presence. Anyone betting against this kid right now is foolish. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has 300+ strikeouts almost every year of his career.
by joegonzo on Sep 30, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take that bet
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Sep 30, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ill give you the fact that he has a plus-plus fastball and a possible plus-plus slider, but I never heard before that he has 4 pitches, let alone that he has 4 pitches that are all plus-plus……Please explain……
by QBsIllest1 on Sep 30, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have heard...
about four pitches that have the potential to be plus plus. He has his fastball, change up, curveball(which is said to be his best pitch), and slider.
by joegonzo on Sep 30, 2009 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That wipeout breaking ball that Strasburg
has has been called both a slider and a curveball.
Does he have to distinct breaking balls?
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Sep 30, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perez is a fantastic prospect — no one denies this. You can probably make a worthwhile argument for Perez versus basically any other pitching prospect in baseball — Bumgarner, Friedrich, a healthy Parker, Davis, Hellickson, whoever. But with Strasburg, we’re talking about a guy with a true 80 fastball and a 70 slider — I mean, filthy, filthy stuff, and he can command it too. Unless you really hate his mechanics, there’s really no argument to be made.
by PhillyFriar on Sep 30, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree, theres no comp between these 2 IMO. But he doesnt have 4 plus-plus pitches either. From all reports IM reading, it says plus-plus fastball, plus slider and an average change up…..
It sems that JoeGonzo combined Matusz and Strasburg iunto the same person….
by QBsIllest1 on Sep 30, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where are people hearing his slider...
is his best pitch. I have heard 80 fastball, 80 curve, and potentially 65-70 slider and change up. His curve is his best pitch and his change up is still developing, but could become one of the btter change ups in the game. He also has a filthy slider that ranks up their, but it shouldn’t even be mentioned next to his curve.
by joegonzo on Sep 30, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The scouting video I’ve seen only has him throwing his fastball and his curve, which I called a slider above because it looks and functions more like a slider. I’m only aware of those two and his change up, which he never really needed to use in college; if he has a second breaking pitch, this is the first I’m hearing about it.
by PhillyFriar on Sep 30, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seen him pitch live twice. He has two breaking balls. Curve and 90 mph cutter/slider.
by NRC on Oct 2, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the counterargument is
21 yr old in the majors next season
by iam2asian4u on Sep 30, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
18 year old comp
Strasburg wasn’t pumping 100 as a high school grad. I know most here think Strasburg has the higher ceiling, but youth’s ceiling is always higher. Perez could add 6-8 ticks to his FB over the next two years (even if the frame doesn’t imply it….. Neither did Pedro’s) and he’s got the pitcher’s mentality, as opposed to Strasburg who would be better characterized as the thrower of the two. It may be a stretch but given that the collegiate righty hasn’t pitched as a professional and that the pseudo-prep pitcher is in AA…I would say either is a luxury that any club would be envious of having. But between the two, I want the teenage southpaw…on upside.
Chicks Dig The Long Ball.
by ILuvDaBush on Oct 1, 2009 6:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ugh. no.
By that logic, the 14 year old kid who made varsity for my local high school has a higher ceiling than Perez. That’s not an argument, that’s ridiculous.
by PissedMick on Oct 1, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
This is the best argument you can make for Perez. At 18, Perez dominated low A and held his own in AA. Strasburg? He was barely holding his own against weak D-I competition. Strasburg never really started dominated until his Soph year.
Perez at 18 is a MUCH better overall prospect than Strasburg was at 18. Can Perez at 21 be anything like Strasburg at 21? Who knows. I would still vote Stras, but it is not as far apart as a lot of people would lead you to believe.
by guru4u on Oct 2, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If that's the best argument you can make, then it's a pretty weak case.
I think there are much better reasons to like Perez.
Pitchers don’t improve like hitters. Their growth isn’t a curve so much as it’s like a staircase. Pitchers improve when they master a pitch, or alter their mechanics in a way that improves control—something like that. Of course, a lot of that improvement happens at a young age, but it’s not nearly as likely as it is with a hitter, who is getting stronger and learning to recognize pitches better as he ages. With a pitcher, improvement isn’t that much less likely to happen at 25 as it is at 21. That’s why you see so many more pitchers come out of nowhere, and jump up and down prospect lists.
Age-relative-to-league just isn’t THAT important for pitchers. They’re either good enough to pitch in the majors, or they’re not. You can hope Perez will make that jump, but he’s not Jason Heyward in AA at 19.
by PissedMick on Oct 2, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so why were people so up in arms when Porcello
skipped AA and AAA this year?
and if pitchers just dont improve with age, explain strasburg, explain greinke’s stuff going from good to absolutely dominating, etc
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Oct 2, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you reading impaired?
I didn’t say pitchers don’t improve with age. I said they don’t improve the same way hitters do. It’s much more about big jumps than it is gradual year-to-year improvement. Pitchers don’t NECESSARILY improve as they age, either. It’s pretty rare that you can say the same about a hitter.
by PissedMick on Oct 2, 2009 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hitters dont always improve either...
and are you really saying that most pitchers are the same when the come into the league as when they are at their peak?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Oct 2, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's saying
hitters take a more static approach to their progression. Whereas pitchers are volatile prospects, “putting it together” can happen without warning.
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Oct 3, 2009 4:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
And you can’t really count on that progression the same way you can with most hitters.
by PissedMick on Oct 3, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People thought, correctly, that Porcello would be mediocre in the majors
because he was mediocre in the minors last season, ERA notwithstanding.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Oct 3, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
people thought he would get destroyed and it would kill his development...
i think both of those things look to be pretty false at this point
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Oct 4, 2009 2:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bet against him being a HOFer?
an upper tier one like clemens at that?
yes
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Sep 30, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im talking about raw stuff...
yea he does have the raw stuff to be better than Clemens.
by joegonzo on Sep 30, 2009 9:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
you predicted him to have 300+ ks every year
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Sep 30, 2009 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and thats clemens/rj level stuff/results
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Sep 30, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think were being stubborn. its possible that strasburg does that but billy is being rational and arguing that there is no sure thing and it is rude to project him 300ks a year without him pitching a professional inning yet.
by mjr20 on Sep 30, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't project...
I said I would not be surprised if he had 300+ almost every year of his career. Read before you make ignorant comments and call someone rude.
by joegonzo on Sep 30, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you wouldnt be surprised if a guy who's never pitched to a professional hitter
became one of the top 10 pitchers of all time?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Sep 30, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point I'm making is...
his upside is that high. Also, yes I wouldn’t be surprised if he became one of the top ten pitchers of all time.
by joegonzo on Oct 1, 2009 7:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you should read my post before you make ignorant comments.
i clearly didnt call you rude. maybe i tangled your words a bit, but you didnt get my point. i said billybeingbilly was arguing that it is “rude”- a word used to state that strasburg has high expectations and it is almost rude to expect him to do that. the point of my post was to point out that i do not think both of you were being completely serious and that he clearly wouldnt be surprised, in my opinion, if Strasburg ended up a HOF pitcher.
by mjr20 on Sep 30, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only argument is
cost to sign vs possible rewards
tbd
stupid thread
by Bud Light on Sep 30, 2009 9:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd prefer something like
Perez vs. Feliz or Perez vs. Jesus. It’s not a fair question with Strasburg involved.
I like steak.
by Conjunction on Sep 30, 2009 9:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow
This is the first time I’ve ever heard someone say Strasburg is better than Jesus.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Sep 30, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I thought I would get paid
I would bet $1000 strokemberg doesn’t have 100 major league starts by the end of 2013.
by tuna411 on Sep 30, 2009 10:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Super.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Oct 1, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strokemberg?
That’s honestly the worst/gayest changed named I have ever seen.
by nyy601 on Oct 1, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
'tis pretty terrible
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Oct 1, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, way to go out on a limb there
You could replace Strasburg with any pitching prospect, and you’d still be $1000 richer in all likelihood.
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Oct 1, 2009 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well then...
that statement right there proves exactly WHY there’s no wrong answer on any of these
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Oct 1, 2009 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
That statement puts every pitcher on equal footing in the sense that they’re all capable of flaming out. The fact is, Strasburg is the best pitching PROSPECT heading into 2010, if you’d rather have another pitcher that’s your preference, but to say it’s because he probably won’t be pitching in the majors in 2013 is a bit shortsighted.
Then again, in an opinion poll there is never a right or wrong answer; perhaps just a more sensible one.
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Oct 1, 2009 3:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with all of that....
and i voted for strasburg, but i think the dismissal of perez is ridiculous…there are things that stras doesnt do flawlessly
one argument that is valid for perez is the comparison of what the two were doing at 18 years old….perez was dominating high A ball while stras was pitching out of the pen (with much lesser stuff than perez currently has) in the MWC
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Oct 1, 2009 3:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm so tired of people using age as a huge factor in prospect pitcher evaluation.
IT JUST DOESN’T MATTER LIKE IT DOES FOR HITTERS
by PissedMick on Oct 1, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
b/c significant improvement cant be made b/w the ages of 18 and 21?
good to know stras is still throwing lows 90s, is fat and has attitude problems. whats all the hype about?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Oct 1, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not that age is irrelevant
it’s that it doesn’t make a difference in this case. If Strasburg is clearly the better prospect at this point in time, what difference does it make if Perez is currently younger? Or if Perez was pitching professionally at a younger age?
Honestly, explain how that in anyway makes Perez a more appealing option..
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Oct 1, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've read it so many times
“strokerberg is going to be in the majors to start 2010”…“he’s ready now”…“he’s the best and should be paid $30 million”. blah, blah, blah
How do you pay someone $17 million or whatever and he isn’t expected to be in the majors immediately? If he doesn’t start for washington next april, then this is exactly why you don’t pay such rediculously stupid amounts to kids.
I’ll stick by my pre annouced estimation of what he should have received, which was $10 million or less.
by tuna411 on Oct 1, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's ridiculous, with an "i"
Strasburg was considered by many analysts to be the best pitcher in the history of the draft. He was paid his market value, and it was less than many expected.
The Nats would have been fools to pass on Strasburg because of his price tag.
by PissedMick on Oct 2, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"market value?"
If he’d been free to sign with any team, he would have easily cleared twice his current contract, probably more than that. There’s no reason to think he’s any worse than Aroldis Chapman, and Chapman is expected to pull down $30M+.
As for the previous comment: paying $17M for the first three years of Strasburg’s MLB career plus three more arb-controlled years is likely to be a ridiculous bargain for the Nationals. $6M/year is Braden Looper / Livan Hernandez territory, and you don’t have to be nearly as optimistic as some folks on this thread to see him easily exceeding that kind of value, quite possibly completely blowing it out of the water. He’s massively underpaid, not overpaid, precisely because he’s not on the free market. (Which may or may not be good for baseball, but that’s another topic…)
by ManConley on Oct 2, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
under paid vs over paid
Bobby Abreu, very much established but received just $5 was under paid.
strokerberg, very much not established and a college pitcher received $15 million but was under paid.
Yeah, I get it.
by tuna411 on Oct 3, 2009 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Strasburg was on the open market he would have probably topped $50m
$50m > $15m ergo underpaid. It’s pretty simple really.
by DeJay on Oct 3, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if's and butt's
You are right, it is simple. ’borg is NOT a free agent so why even discuss that aspect?
by tuna411 on Oct 3, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Abreu was for just one year
But Strasburg’s for at least 6 years dumbass.
The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...
by Kinslerhomer on Oct 3, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How does Perez have any votes??
Unlike other threads like this, there is only one right answer on this one: Strasburg. Plain and simple.
Jack "The Must, Just has no Rust, ain't no Bust, after him the ladies Lust, turns pitchers into Dust, likes his pizza with no Crust" Cust
by FrankCohen on Oct 1, 2009 2:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Because it's so plain and simple
Everybody has a choice to vote for whomever they want. The fact is nobody knows who’s going to be better and thus, someone put it to a vote here so we could all discuss the point of how Strasberg is better than… well, everyone, including Jesus. Now yes, most people do believe that Strasberg is the best but only time will tell. We are all voting about the future. Why do people bet on the underdog? For those of us who voted for Perez, we feel in the long run, he will be better…or we like to vote for the underdog. Plus, how many can’t misses missed?
by discndat on Oct 1, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No reasonable person could pick Perez here
I really dont get it. Strasburg is just better all across the board.
by alskor on Oct 3, 2009 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strasburg
But it’s definitely not a silly question.
While both are huge flameout risks, the mechanical flaws of Stras are pretty significant. For folks who put a lot of weight on that, I can certainly see picking Perez.
by nivarsity on Oct 1, 2009 12:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Strasburg's
mechanical flaws were significant we’d probably know that by now. Fact is, there really isn’t any data to substantiate that claim. If his arm blows up, people will say he had flaws. If it doesn’t, people will say he’s lucky.
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Oct 1, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other pitchers with similar mechanical flaws weren't well known by their junior years in college.
See Pryor, Mark.
by nivarsity on Oct 2, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Prior, Mark?
I assume we’re talking inverted W?
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Oct 2, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer Feliz to Perez anyway
Feliz Strasburg is more interesting comp. From what i’ve read Strasburg tops him, but feliz was just so damn good at the major league level this year.
by wobatus on Oct 1, 2009 5:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Strasburg has slightly better velocity and a more consistent breaking ball (according to reports- and this is emphasized for a reason) but due to the fact that he’s never faced competition and has a more questionable delivery, I’d have to think long and hard about it.
I like steak.
by Conjunction on Oct 1, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never faced competition? Really?
The Olympics doesn’t count? And he’s pitched on TV, if you haven’t seen him, that’s your fault. His breaking pitch is sick.
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Oct 1, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree with his breaking pitch,
but what makes it sick is the velocity of his heater… the hitter can really do nothing but sit on the heater and pray… there is too much of a discrepancy between hit fastball and his breaking stuff.
"When Justin Upton faces Lincecum, I think Christ might appear in the heavens, and the world will end." -JakeFree
by JT12340 on Oct 1, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, the Olympics don't count
The level of competition there does not equate to anywhere major-league hitting.
Yes, I’ve seen Strasburg’s secondary offerings. They look quite good. But I can’t say I’ve seen enough of him to speak of the consistency with which he can deliver them.
I probably still take Stras over Feliz. But I would deliberate about it until my timer was up.
I like steak.
by Conjunction on Oct 2, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strasburg, Any Day
For all the Orioles' prospect information and scouting, check out
www.oriolesprospects.com
by ravensfan3 on Oct 3, 2009 8:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not close, In my view
For all the Orioles' prospect information and scouting, check out
www.oriolesprospects.com
by ravensfan3 on Oct 4, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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