Sometimes, I'm Ashamed to Be a Met Fan
by METSMETSMETS on Sep 20, 2009 6:07 PM EDT
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Here's a fanpost on what Omar should do for pitching over at Amazin Avenue:
If Omar wants pitching, he needs to make a trade (by Original Poster)
because the only good free agent will be John Lackey. Now the Mets only have 3 trading pieces IMO. Jeffrey Marte who is blocked by David Wright, Ruben Tejada who is block by Jose Reyes and Angel Pagan whom make a perfect trading partner with… Toronto. Toronto needs young position player at 3B, SS, and CF because they don’t have any OF depth or left side infielders. But they have a ton of pitchers.
Halladay, Jesse Litch, Scot Richmond, Jansen, Marcum, and that other guy who is always hurt but is probably their most talented pitcher. From the left side they have Cecil, Romero and Rzepzinski ( also David Purcey). ALL of them are better than any of our pitchers not named Santana or Pelfrey. Our other good prospects should be considered untouchable(F!, Holt, Mejia, ike, Niewenheis, Flores and Havens).
Jesse Litch or Rzepzinski will be perfect
Response:
If I have to give up those three I want Halladay (by Responder)
You know what I'm sayin'
Response again:
Only ONE of those prospects for one of their pitchers. (by Original Poster
Good Grief.
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Pagan for Halladay
I feel like the Blue Jays might not bite on that one. But thats just a guess.
by astrosfanforever on Sep 20, 2009 6:11 PM EDT reply actions
what?
I have no idea what this is saying?
Do you really think TOR would do a trade like that?
You are half the problem!
Our other good prospects should be considered untouchable(F!, Holt, Mejia, ike, Niewenheis, Flores and Havens).
No. No. No they shouldn’t.
Assuming that all the pitchers are healthy the Mets one more front end pitcher. The bullpen is decent as is.
Santana
Maine
Pelfrey
Niese/Perez
As for the outfield, if I ever seen Murphy or Sheffield i’m going to tear my eyes out. They need to focus exclusively on players who bring plus range and plus defense.
Try and pry Carl Crawford from TB. He only has one year left on his contract. Then offer him an extension. The Rays probably wouldn’t go for it after trading Kazmir. But if you can get him for Holt/Mejia, Davis+ go for it. If not focus on signing Hollday, or maybe Cody Ross.
In RF, trade Frenchy. His stock seems to be up but his defense isn’t good enough for that park. If they get Crawford, maybe they can snag Ross for RF.
Sign a one year guy for first, probably Delgado (Delgado’s option is 6.5 million net, or close to that). And trade Murphy if possible. He doesn’t have the power for first, nor does he have the defense for anywhere else.
I would love to see:
Reyes
Crawford
Beltran
Wright
Delgado
Ross
Thole/Santos
Castillo
If they can bring a few plus
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Crawford
will likely cost more than the Mets’ B-list prospects especially now that he’s becoming more and more unavailable. Also, he’s really not worth top notch prospects or an extension… His value only reached over $20 million this year and I believe he’s 28 next year. I’d rather buy low on BJ Upton who is arb-eligible for the first time this year, is only 25 years old and has just as much if not more upside as Crawford. His offensive numbers are discouraging but he’s still found a way to valuable with his defense (and he’s just as much of a base-stealer).
On Ross, he’s rather old and I think he’d cost too much, and why waste money and time on him when we have Angel Pagan and Fernando available?
by METSMETSMETS on Sep 20, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
BJ
Why would the Rays trade BJ Upton or Crawford? The only reason they would trade Crawford is because he is getting expensive. They have no other reason to trade him. That opens up the opportunity for a team to deal for him.
BJ, being cost controlled, won’t be traded.
I just got on twitter.Follow me at http://twitter.com/JDSussman
I'll be trying to post lines and analysis as much as possible.
Remember: baseball guys... baseball...
BJ
would be a trade possibility as he hasn’t been performing offensively, he still has value and this is his first arb-eligible year. So this year his salary may be as high as $4 million, whereas they’ve had him for $400,000 before.
by METSMETSMETS on Sep 20, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I prefer to hear suggestions like this
To those that say we should trade Reyes for Ellsbury and Buchholz.
buchholz
I don’t know. Buchholz is pitching pretty well and could still be an ace. He’s at about a 3.5 WAR pace this year, Ellsbury was at 3.3 last year and 2.3 this year. If Buchholz takes a step up that’s not a bad deal for Reyes. If what you are suggesting is that’s not enough for him.
no, it's pretty bad.
We need Reyes more than Ellsbury position wise, and two players =/= the value of one, even if the wins are equaled out, because of the additional roster space.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
This
Comparing WAR of two players to one player is a pretty worthless endeavor, not to mention that Ellsbury is kind of redundant on the Mets and would likely be pushed to a corner, making the difference between him and Nyjer Morgan essentially nil.
Understood
I get the 2 for 1 aspect. You’d prefer the best player in the deal. The thing is, Buchholz could very well be a 5-6 WAR starter eventually, and although pitchers are risky I am pretty confident he will do just that if not more.
Not sure I’d do it, and also you are trading reyes at a low ebb, but an injured guy who is a 5.5 WAR guy when healthy (of course, Reyes could get better than that even, but for right now the risk is even getting back to that) for a potentially dominant starter (I like Buccholz in the NL east at Citi), with Ellsbury as a throw in? Well, make it Ryan Kalish and I’d probably pull the trigger. Stick Tejada at short or Havens when he is ready.
Buchholz
I hadn’t looked at him too closely. I may be overestimating his chances to bea consistent 5-6 WAR pitcher. Hasn’t matched the earlier minor league k/bb rates, although there are some encouraging signs (GB rate up, etc.).
Nope
You were right on. He’s been lights out recently. His stuff is Ace stuff. He’s emerging into the front of the rotation pitcher he was expected to. It would be tempting, but I wouldnt trade him for Reyes, given years of control, proclivity for injury, cost, etc…
must be a fair trade
Since neither side’s fans like it.
Seriously, maybe it doesn’t make sense for either team. Hopefully it can be revisited after next year after Buchholz strikes out 200 and Reyes scores 120 and steals 50.
proclivity for injury?
Before this year, Reyes had the last three years missing less than 5 games each.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
METSMETSMETS
Just learn to read and stop being a moron (I would said something worst, but not because of respect to Mr. Sickels) and stop repeating this. In my post I NEVER said trade for Halladay. Those are your words, NOT mine. But what can we expect from a troll. All I was saying was to go for one of their lessen pitchers, whom the worst BlueJay pitcher is lots a better pitcher than our options
Scott Richmond??
the worst BlueJay pitcher is lots a better pitcher than our options
I object!
Excuse me
I didn’t edit one word in there.
All of the above was an exchange between you and fxcarden.
What I found ridiculous about this conversation is not only fxcarden’s comments about Halladay which I am not assigning to you, but what I found incredulous was that A) You assign Marte, Tejada and/or Pagan enough to land Rzepczynski or Litsch and B) you would only give away ONE of those to get Rzepczynski or Litsch.
by METSMETSMETS on Sep 22, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Tejada
is worth those guys by himself, at least. I like both Rzep and Litsch. But I’d like to see what I might have in Tejada before dealing him for them.
Tejada is worth Rzep or Litsch by himself?
I’m gonna have to disagree there. Now I like Ruben, in fact I wrote a well-received piece on him for Amazin Avenue a month back or so. But let’s be real. Rzepczynski is a young, controllable lefty with brilliant stuff, who is a shoe-in to be a #3 pitcher in just about any rotation, and if he hones his command a little bit more he’s an ace. Ruben Tejada is good and all, but let’s face it: his entire offensive ability hinges on his batting average. He’s a B- prospect who has some upside but let’s not get ahead of ourselves here.
by METSMETSMETS on Sep 22, 2009 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Jays pitching
I think you have really misassesed their situation. First of all, Jansen belongs nowhere in the discussion as one the Jays top pitchers. He has been next to atrocious this year stuff wise and in stats, is a reliever at best in my eyes. Litsch is a borderline 5 and I would rather have many others in my rotation. Marcum and McGowan are both recovering from significant arm surgeries, so it is too early to count on their return to form. Cecil, Mills, and Rzepczynski are still wild cards and developing. Richmond looks like a decent 4 very good #5 starter. Purcey’s future is even more so in doubt and is not reallyin the picture for now.
Basically, Halliday is going to be gone after next year and Richmond and Romero are the only certainties for 2011. The Jays need to count on one of McGowan and Marcum recovering. They also need to hope on at least one of Rzep, Mills, and Cecil working out, 2 would be better. But with so much uncertainty, the Jays would probably be unwilling to trade much this year.
The Mets best hope is to try pulling McGowan or Marcum from the Jays when their value is low from the uncertainty surrounding their recovery. It is a risk, but if it can be done with a B prospect or a couple Cs its a good move. Out of the prospects, Cecil is untouchable right now in my opinion, the Jays are really set on him. The Mets might be able steal Mills in a prospect for prospect trade. I really do not see Halladay ending up with the Mets this year unless they really sell the farm to Ricciardi.
by tdot mariner fan on Sep 21, 2009 11:53 AM EDT reply actions
Litsch
As an extreme groundball pitcher with great control and a reasonable strikeout rate for his skillset, I wouldn’t write Jesse Litsch off as a “borderline 5”. He compares favorably to a guy like Kyle Lohse, who has been a 2 win pitcher on average the last three years.
I am somewhat excessively negative about Litsch but there are reasons to worry
In 2007 and 2008, Litsch has put up lower than league average BABIP while striking out no more than 5per 9. His batted ball profile analysis in TRA does not really like him either with rates of 5.63 and 5.11 in 2007 and 2008. He throws a slightly above average cutter, but the rest of his pitch repetoire is fringe average or worse on his off days to me. He really needs to just a few more bats for what he looks like right now, statistically and scouting wise, is a borderline #5.
by tdot mariner fan on Sep 21, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
mets message boards
this is an “in general” statement, so no need to get huffy if it doesn’t apply to you….
i’ve been a frequent poster (as a braves fan that mets fans could tolerate because i don’t attempt to play down everyone else’s team but my own) on a number of different mets boards, including one board that is an all mets-fan board…my take on many mets message board posters: they have a HUGE inferiority complex…they are so used to hearing yankees, yankees, yankees in their own home region that they hold onto anything possibly positive about their team for too long, too hard, and they are overly knee-jerk about failures by anyone not home-grown….i can’t tell you how many threads i saw last year and over the winter wishing terrible, horrible things upon luis castillo…and this year, he’s been one of their few consistent members of the lineup, bringing exactly what you thought you’d get from him: high OBP, decent basestealing…
that’s why this post doesn’t surprise me…any decent prospect will be viewed as amazing by mets fans, many of whom flooded twins boards with how bad the twins robbed the mets for santana….that’s worked out super for the twins, hasn’t it :p
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Guilty as Charged
Done in my Kelsey Grammar as Sideshow Bob imitation voice.
Seriously though, thte Santana deal wasn’t awful for the Twins. Gomez was 2.5 WAR or so last year. He regressed, but he wasn’t awful and then lost his job. Mulvey was turned into Rauch. Guerra had a 3.5 FIP at 20 in AA this year.
Santana is hurt. And Santana cost a boatload more money than the 4 players the twins got in return, allowing them to keep Kubel. and Mauer, who while he is signed to a fairly reasonable deal, is still part of the Twins budget.
It wasn’t a great deal and it seems better deals maybe were out there, but it hasn’t killed them. Gomez taking a big step back and Guerra not quite developing as well as expected yet knocked it back a peg.
in retrospect
it was probably the second best deal…the mariners went after johan hard before finally giving up (the twins refused to trade him to the AL) and going after bedard….the reported offer from seattle looked a lot like the one the orioles got, but with morrow and jones involved, along with balentien…there’s debate over what the last piece was, but it was believed that sherrill was one of the offered final pieces….
the deal, along with the garza deal, really were black eyes in the twins attempting to take that step from great team to elite…they were afforded an abundance of pitching, but chose to stick with the wrong guys and didn’t really get pieces they needed for the ones they let go…their left side of the infield has been putrid, and there were options out there that would have afforded them acquiring nice pieces for that…
the mets deal wasn’t horrible, but to hear it at the time, you’d have thought the twins had just acquired the next rickey henderson, two future perennial cy young candidates, and a future all-star closer…and that’s certainly not true!
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on Sep 22, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
um
read…please…that’s not anything that i’ve said…i like to discuss the game with fans of various different teams, and i’ve been invited to be part of mets communities because i DON’T rag on their team…it was a simple observation…many mets fans who can actually be objective readily admit these observations…
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on Sep 22, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that the inferiority complex is there, without a doubt
But I think the minor league hype has more to do with having a pretty bad system for a lot of years than it does with anything else. Fans of any team with a crappy system tend to overrate the few gems they do have (thus Cale Iorg is a prospect in the eyes of some). I do think there’s a marked difference between the system now and the system five years ago, with significant improvement since then. Less guys who could become Bs, more guys who are Bs.
He's not
he’s talking about the general attitude of Mets message boards.
by METSMETSMETS on Sep 23, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly!!
someone gets it…lol…
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on Sep 24, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Which Mets boards do you frequent?
Because the ones I hit up are full of prospect loving weenies but even the most extreme among them thought it was a pretty fair trade at worst, a steal for the Mets at best. Yes, it hurt to give up Gomez and Guerra in particular, considering they were two of the higher ceiling players in the Mets’ system, but no one was complaining.
the comments
….were mostly made on local twins boards by mets fans…kfan’s message boards were probably hardest hit…
the mets forum that i still frequent is mets refugees….but i used to talk with guys at espn forums (before they went to heck in a handbasket), mlb forums, and a couple more that i don’t have bookmarked anymore that were suggested by a few guys from other boards that chatted on those…
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on Sep 24, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, the Twins didn't refuse to trade him to the AL
He basically refused to go to the AL. And I really, really doubt that the M’s could have given him the contract the Mets did. I think you’re forgetting that Johan had a no trade clause and could essentially choose where to go.
he wanted the mariners - bad
his best friend was there, carlos silva….that was part of the reason that he walked away from the table with the twins is that they let silva go…he wanted west coast AL or any NL is what his agent constantly told the twins…and terry ryan is about as forthcoming as any guy in the business, and he was explaining that they were handcuffed to AL West or the NL, and they chose to make sure he went to the NL…
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on Sep 24, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
at least they're not red sox fans
Disclaimer: Post-2007, that is.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf"
-Tug McGraw
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