Chicago Firesale? What The White Sox Received
by Andersklasen on Sep 1, 2009 1:34 AM EDT
31 comments
Late Monday night, after a 4-1 loss to the Twins, the White Sox announced two trades that effectively raised the white flag from the south side of Chicago.
Or did it?
Trade No. 1: White Sox trade Jose Contreras to Rockies for Brandon Hynick
Although this one technically came after the other trade, the ramifications of this trade are far less. Contreras boasts a league-leading 13 losses on the season and has an ERA of 5.42 to prove it. His ERA+ is just 87, and some would argue that this trade, via addition by subtraction, actually makes the White Sox better, even though it's unclear who will fill the rotation gap.
Hynick isn't a top prospect by any means. Rated #17 by Mr. Sickels in his preview for '09, Hynick has since posted an ERA of 3.83 through over 150 innings with Triple-A Colorado Springs. Neither his WHIP nor SO/9 are nothing to write home about, he has a ceiling of a decent back-of-the-rotation starter. Hynick hasn't made his major-league debut yet, but the former 6th round selection could battle for a rotation spot next year as a 25-year old.
Trade No. 2: White Sox trade Jim Thome to Dodgers for Justin Fuller and cash
I'm not entirely sure why the Dodgers need another designated hitter on their team, as Manny Ramirez seems to have that territory fairly well covered, but Thome is a potential future Hall-of-Famer who can easily provide some power off the bench. (Thome's last defensive game was June 13, 2007 as a first baseman - his only non-DH/PH game of season. He participated in three games in 2006 that involved wearing a fielding glove.)
Justin Fuller is an interesting prospect. He was an 11th round selection back in 2006, and is currently hitting an OPS of just .758 in the SALLY League. He hasn't shown any real power, nor speed, but can consistently get on the bases at a decent clip. Any other insight anyone would have regarding this young man would be greatly appreciated.
Thome is living off a $13 million club option this year, and many would assume he plans on retiring after this season. Could this trade simply be a friendly gesture from Chicago that would allow Thome to get one more chance at a World Series ring?
What do you think of these trades? Do they help Chicago in any immediate fashion, or are they simply salary-dumps? Does this signify the white flag being flown from US Cellular, or do they still have plans of taking down the Tigers?
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a former white sox prospect
who was traded for quentin a couple yrs ago…carter has 3 hr tonght
by Asfan4ever723 on Sep 1, 2009 1:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, because that was a terrible trade for the Sox....
Kenny got the better end of that deal…. if Quentin can stay healthy. He got hurt again this year, and just hasn’t gotten it back. Last season, Quentin showed what he can do. That player is definitely better than Carter’s minor league homers.
by throwingsmoke on Sep 1, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this is a pretty dumb statement to make
Almost any time a major leaguer (and Quentin was just barely one when he was traded) is traded for a minor leaguer – especially a guy in A ball at the time – the deal will look better for the guy getting the major leaguer. For a while. The way I see it, Carter has progressed more quickly and he’s developed better than most people would’ve thought. Quentin showed what he’s capable of doing, but the thing that’s held him back before has held him back again in two straight seasons.
I have little doubt that Carter will hit as well as Quentin (of course he’ll be doing it in Oakland, not Chicago, so his raw numbers might not be quite as good). And it’s not like Quentin is anything special defensively.
Fact is, Williams got lucky with this move. He got lucky there were injuries in spring training 2008, or Quentin doesn’t make the major league roster. You can give him credit all you want, but the organization lucking into the guy nearly being the MVP when they really didn’t even want him on the roster isn’t something Williams should include on his resume.
by thejd44 on Sep 1, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the funny thing is the dodgers traded TONY ABREU
for JON GARLAND… What a f’ing joke…. Garland is garbage and we traded our 2010 2nd basemen for 5 garbage starts from him….
you would think the white sox could have gotten something better for thome if the dodgers were willing to givee up abreu for JON GARLAND
by matthewmafa on Sep 1, 2009 3:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Garland going to be a Type A though?
So maybe it’s not that bad?
by Fanon on Sep 2, 2009 3:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
garland cannot be offered arbritration even if he is...
plus hes not even a Type B….. hes nothing as of right now…
by matthewmafa on Sep 2, 2009 3:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that case
Innings are highly underrated.
by Fanon on Sep 2, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We got Tony Abreu?
Haha. Not bad Byrnes. I would have liked to see Ryal at 2B next year, but meh. You aren’t going to get too much value for Garland.
by CaptainCanuck on Sep 1, 2009 3:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
for 2b
dodgrs will still have dewitt and dejesus later on
by Asfan4ever723 on Sep 1, 2009 4:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's a firesale/dump
It seemed clear that Kenny was willing to talk about a lot of players, based on media reports, so the intent is clear. Makes sense, as they were slipping and the Twins were also surging, making it tougher. That said, losing Thome and Contreras is … well, not that big of a deal. They didn’t get much in return, but at this stage, neither was a key aspect of the club.
by toonsterwu on Sep 1, 2009 7:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thome
Is still a valuable hitter. The Sox are bowing out.
by Conjunction on Sep 1, 2009 9:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thome is not a valuable hitter.
Unless he hits a home run (which has dropped considerably), he his a liability. He seriously has trouble running from 1 base to the next. His doubles have dropped this season because his feet just don’t let him run. He seldom scores from second on a single because he is just too slow. Us White Sox fans love Jim Thome, but I’m so tired of him, Konerko, and Dye clogging the basebaths. There is a pretty argument to make that the Sox are better without Thome and Contreras, as different players can will get some AB’s and Starts.
Personally, I think this is Kenny Williams’ way of giving Slugger Jim another chance at a World Series ring.
by throwingsmoke on Sep 1, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he’s not going to start in LA, he’s not going to play defense, so if he can get on base late in the game (and he still has this year to a tune of .372 OBP) let someone run for him and then double switch… he’s still pretty valuable, even if he’s “clogging the basepaths”
see above
The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn from the crow
by gorilla_baller on Sep 1, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is it possible that in this day and age, there are still people who use the phrase "clogging the basepaths" without irony?
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Sep 1, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're called "Dusty Baker" or "White Sox fans"
I’m not sure if there’s a fan base that’s less saber-inclined than Sox fans. It’s the primary reason I’m not one anymore.
by thejd44 on Sep 1, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All, no? Most - and as far as I've seen, moreso than other fanbases? Absolutely.
Although I prefer the term “meatballs” to “meatheads.”
If there are saber-friendly White Sox communities on the internet, they’re very new and I’ve never seen them.
by thejd44 on Sep 1, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's hard to be SABR-inclined
When your organization’s philosophy is to piss on stats.
by Fanon on Sep 2, 2009 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somewhat agree
I used to agree 100% but then I had to watch Frank Thomas and Bengie Molina round the bases for the Jays. Now I agree 99% of the time.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Sep 1, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's something to be said for not having the two slowest runners in the majors on your team
Which, for me, makes it about 99% as well.
by Fanon on Sep 2, 2009 3:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you watched a Sox game this year?
Here is the Sox’s problem… from the middle of their order, unless someone hits a HR, it takes 4 singles to score a run (and I’m not lyin). I’ve watched Thome, Konerko, and Dye get held up at 3rd from 2nd base way too many times. I’m not saying Thome should have been the one to go, but something had to be done. There is plenty of value in the OPS and OBP, but all three of those guys on the Sox need wheelchairs to score from second. The Sox have lost many, many runs this season from guys either being held at third or being thrown out at home.
I wasn’t referring to Thome as “clogging the basepaths”, but moreso the entire middle of the Sox lineup. Maybe Ozzie should have moved players around in the lineup?
As for being a “White Flag” trade… I don’t look at it that way. Contreras was done with the Sox this year. He wasn’t starting any more games. That has been established. And since the Rios waiver deal, Thome has seen his ABs drop significantly. He wasn’t a significant part of their plans anymore this season.
by throwingsmoke on Sep 1, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BUT the problem isnt the middle of the order hitters "clogging the basepaths"
Its:
a) Moronic lineup construction; and
b) Awful hitters at the bottom of the order who arent driving in all the guys above them, even though those guys are doing a great job getting on base; and
c) Bad roster construction – with four guys who would ideally be DHing… lots of old, slow guys.
Any way you cut this, the problem is not guys getting on base and “clogging the basepaths” In fact, that’s arguably the only thing that wasnt a problem. It was a lot closer to a strength.
Also, I cant watch White Sox games b/c their announcers are terrible. “Get up! Stretch!” makes me want to take a bat to the television.
by alskor on Sep 2, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree...
This is the point I was trying to make… that Thome is just one of the “slow” players in the middle of the lineup… and someone had to go.
I’ve been saying for a couple of years now that the traditional lineup doesn’t work for the Sox because of the reasons you stated above (4 DHs and bad hitting 789 hitters). I’ve been begging for Ozzie to move people around in the order, but obviously that isn’t possible. I think you’ll see the Sox make some changes in the offseason and be a much quicker lineup.
by throwingsmoke on Sep 2, 2009 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We can measure how much those guys cost on the basepaths versus how much they provide offensively
and the score is not close. It is, in fact, a blowout.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Sep 2, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clogging the basepaths
/facepalm.
Because getting on base is just oh so terrible.
"Chicks dig the long ball, although fat chicks will settle for warning track power" - Nick Diamond
by hero66 on Sep 1, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1) It’s not a salary dump if you cover most of the salary
2) Why would Thome retire this off-season? He’s still a perfectly good DH.
by aCone419 on Sep 1, 2009 9:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
White Sox waived the white flag
And more importantly saved money. Good job saving money because they’re not making the playoffs with or without them. (Hate to lump Thome in with Contreras).
If there’s anything to question, it’s why the Dodgers trading for a pinch hitter/DH for their NL run? I hope they’re paying almost nothing, apparently they gave up pretty much that.
by cowboy4eva on Sep 1, 2009 6:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the white sox are paying the rest of his salary
by matthewmafa on Sep 1, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nvm
the dodgers are paying 1 mill of the 2.6 mill
by matthewmafa on Sep 2, 2009 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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