2-Pitch Pitchers
by Dewey Finn on Aug 2, 2009 4:06 AM EDT
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PrintQuite often I've read in prospect books, magazines, and websites, that if a pitcher only has two pitches, he is destined for the bullpen. "Must develop a third pitch to remain a starter" is something that I am tired of reading. In my opinion, to be an effective starter, a pitcher does not always need 3 pitches. Sure its useful, but not necessary. Here are examples of some notable two-pitch pitchers that have done quite well for themselves as starters:
Cole Hamels - fastball/changeup
A.J. Burnett - fastball/curveball
Edinson Volquez - fastball/changeup
Johnny Cueto - fastball/slider
Justin Verlander - fastball/curveball
Edwin Jackson - fastball/slider
Derek Lowe - fastball/slider
Josh Beckett - fastball/curveball
Brad Penny - fastball/curveball
Clayton Kershaw - fastball/curveball
Wandy Rodriguez - fastball/curveball
Johan Santana - fastball/changeup
*I'm sure there are many others, these are just the ones I thought of off the top of my head.
Perhaps I am just venting cuz its frustrating reading about your favorite pitching prospects labelled as future RPs.
What do you guys think? Do you agree that too many pitchers are prematurely put into relief roles? There are several instances where certain minor league pitchers have performed extremely well with just two pitches, but are unfairly labeled as future relievers because they lack a 3rd pitch. Subsequently, they are moved into the bullpen without getting a fair shot to succeed as a starter. I feel that in some cases, pitchers can be successful with just 2 pitches.
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Beckett
He doesnt use it as much anymore, but he still goes to his change (which is a very good pitch) >7% of the time. For his career he throws 12.2% changes.
...
Most, if not all, of those pitchers throw at least a “show me” third offering.
Johan Santana’s happens to be the best change up in baseball, btw.
its late
oversight on my part. Was aware of the changeup, just slipped my mind.
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
+1
If you’re going to make a post per day and ignore anything advice that anybody tries to give you, at least put some thought/work into your threads. You could have very easily researched this at FanGraphs and realized that it was a pointless, stupid topic.
by RedSoxFaithful on Aug 2, 2009 5:09 AM EDT up reply actions
lol
I don’t feel the need to take “advice” and meet your and other haters “standards” of posting here.
I do appreciate the response though. I feel like we have this weird love/hate relationship. It seems you can’t help but be drawn to my posts, even though you have such intense hatred for me. Magnetic.
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
my bad
Should’ve written fastball/changeup for Santana. He hardly uses the slider anymore. Will edit.
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
I should mention
That Hamels has an excellent curve. I wish he would use it more often. It’s buckling.
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
some guys that are seen as future relievers because of a lack of a 3rd pitch...
Jenrry Mejia
Andrew Cashner
Bradley Holt
Bud Norris (getting a look as a starter for the Astros, woo hoo!)
Neftali Feliz
Zach Stewart
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
Feliz
Lacks a second pitch right now, lol :(
The thing is, he’s barely 21 and his fastball is a straight-up 80. His curve and change have both shown promise; if he takes some time to work on em, they could become quality offerings.
Kanye, you want to be the voice of this generation? Get in line! It goes me, Obamagirl, the Freecreditreport.com guys, then It's a tie between you-and Crocs.
-Stephen Colbert
Pitch Fx from Futures Game
check out Feliz changeup there.
by ChalupaCabrera on Aug 2, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
The 90 mph change?
That was intriguing to watch, if only for the basis of studying how exactly a change of pace with that sort of velocity would work. Based on reports I’ve read from the many fine folks dilligently covering the Rangers’ MiL system, the changeup is, at best, slightly above average(At this point). I’d like to give it some time in the Majors and then check his Pitch Values to see just how successfully he’s throwing the secondary stuff (if he goes to either pitch more than 10% of the time)
Kanye, you want to be the voice of this generation? Get in line! It goes me, Obamagirl, the Freecreditreport.com guys, then It's a tie between you-and Crocs.
-Stephen Colbert
And he's only 19
A bit early to declare him a reliever due to lack of a third pitch.
People see him as a reliever because he’s short.
Which is interesting
Since he’s essentially the same size as a guy that is continually profiled as a #2 SP in Kyle Drabek
Bloodlines?
I think it has to do with Kyle having pretty much exactly the same build as Doug, and Doug having been an excellent starter for his entire career.
That said, it’s a bit absurd considering Drabek is two years older at the same level yet doesn’t have the same stuff buzzing around him.
A slider as well
He’s also got a slider (or it may really be a cutter) that looks like another big league pitch.
+1
Mark Prior was also a primarily a 2-pitch guy – same with Randy Johnson.
The thing about it is that these examples are exceptional. The pitches they do throw are both good enough to be most pitchers best pitch. Most mortal pitchers do in fact need a third pitch.
Johnson was a true 2-pitch pitcher for about the first 10 years of his career
He didn’t really refine the change until he was with the DBacks, but before that it was almost all FB/SL. Of course, when you have the best fastball and the best slider in the league, you can get away with that.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Most of the guys listed have at least 3 pitches, the 3rd offering is just seen as more of a “Show me” pitch though.
For this purpose, I’m ignoring all pitches thrown < 5% of the time, as it could be an error with the system, or something just not thrown enough to be relevant.
The following are not 2 pitch pitchers
Hamels – 60.9% FB, 9.9% CB, 29.2% CH
Volquez – 58.5% FB, 7.0 SL, 9.2% CB, 25.3% CH
Cueto – 62.9% FB, 31.9% SL, 5.2% CH
Verlander – 67.3% FB, 21.5% CU, 8.6% CH
Jackson – 66.0% FB, 26.1% SL, 5.1% CH
Beckett – 61.4% FB, 27.1% CB, 7.2% CH
Penny – 73.5% FB, 19.4% CB, 7.0% SF
Kershaw – 72.9% FB, 17.5% CB, 5.4% CH
Rodriguez – 58.0% FB, 33.5% CB, 8.5% CH
Santana – 59.4% FB, 9.7% SL, 30.9% CH
Only Burnett and Lowe fit as “2 pitch pitchers” by this description, and even those guys have other options (Lowe throws a CH 3.7% and a SF 3.5%, Burnett throws a CH 3.0%), they just fell below the bar I set.
Point is, to be a good starter you need at least 3 pitches, the 3rd can definitely just be a show-me pitch, but you gotta have one in your arsenal.
Rich Harden literally has only thrown fastball/changeup this year. LINK
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Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons
by CaliforniaJag on Aug 2, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
im pretty sure that jake peavy only throws a fastball and a changeup
fuck lookout landing for banning me for no reason at all...nerds
It's not that hard to go to Fangraphs and look this stuff up
They have every pitcher’s pitch breakdown there.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
"show me" pitches
Can these be below average pitches or must be at least average pitches?
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
Average means MLB average
Nothing wrong with an average pitch. Near half the pitches in baseball should be worse.
To be an effective 3rd pitch, it probably should be at least near to average though.
Average is 50 on the scouting scale, you probably want at least a 45.
A real “show me” pitch is often fringe rather than average.
Those are the guys you think of moving to the pen and ditching the poor third pitch.
It depends on how good the overall stuff is, though. Can the guy get through a lineup three times?
There are also guys with 3 good pitches, none plus, who can’t get through a lineup more than twice.
His overall point.
I do understand Deweys overall point. I read so many scouting reports where a guy has 2 above average to plus pitches and not much for a 3rd and immediatley said to be probable releivers. Where as the truth is if they can learn how to mix and spot those 2 pitches ala Rich Harden they can become a quality ML starter.
+1
A guy not having a GOOD third pitch isn’t the same as a guy having NO third pitch.
WordUpThome: I CANNOT BELIVE THAT THIS PRODUCT IS NOT BUTTER
Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons
by CaliforniaJag on Aug 2, 2009 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
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