Comparson, Clone, =. and > posts.
by cubsfan1 on Jul 31, 2009 12:19 PM EDT
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PrintI'm sorry guys but I find these posts just totally ludicrous. Let me start by saying I've read posts and play in a league with King Billy Royal and Dewey Finn and I have the utmost respect for not only their overall baseball knowledge but also there fanatical love of the game. That being said the most recent posts as well as some others have made me laugh. Knapp a Halladay clone and Westmoreland = Sizemore, really? Is this serious. Your comparing 2 established ML superstars to 2 guys who havn't played above Low A ball. People become enamored with what guys do in A ball and put way to much stock in it. In A ball so many guys survive and put up big numbers soley on pure skill. As we all know just having the pure skills dosn't always translate into good ML careers. Learning the nuances and intracacies of the game will tell if a player is gonna make it to the show and have a career. Probably the biggest jump for a prospect is going from A ball to AA in my opinion. If I have to read 1 more scouting report about some guy with good control but not an overpowering FB compared to Gregg Maddux or some guy with a good change being compared to Johan Santana I'm gonna flip out. There is only 1 Maddux and there is only 1 Santana. Those posts written by KBR and Dewey seem to be more written for shock purpose and to create controversy and get recomends from there buddys then to have actuall real value. And while I liked the Jaff Decker/Travis Snider post I don't really see how comparing what 2 guys did in A ball has any real value. I bet if I spent the time to go through the last 20 years of what guys did at A ball I could find handfulls of players with similar stats but never made the ML. Also aside from body type I don't see Decker and Snider as similar players. Decker controls the strikezone much better and Decker has a cannon for an arm making him a viable option to end up in RF where as Snider I don't think anyone can see him RF (though I think his defense is better then most ppl on this site think). It's like every black 5-tool player gets the Willie Mays comparison and every white 5-tool player gets a MIckey Mantle comparison. Their is only 1 Willie Mays and only 1 Mickey Mantle. Let's try to stop pigeon holing prospects and making comparisons to established ML stars which in my opinion leads to guys getting overhyped and putting unatainable expectations on them. The Cahill> Webb? post still stands as 1 of the stupidest things I've ever read and using there MiLB numbers and showing how Cahills numbers were better then Webbs is such a weak argument. I can find you 50 pitchers who put up better numbers in there MiLB career then Webb who either never played in the ML or will never end up half the pitcher Webb is. Minor league numbers are so overrated is not even funny. Yes they have SOME value but actually watching players and seeing if they are learing how to set up hitters or learning what pitchers are trying to do to a hitter from AB to AB is far more important then putting up monster numbers in A ball. I'm sure I'll take a lot of flack for this post and get ripped by KBR and Dewey and their little cronies but I felt this needed to be said. No hard feelings guys just 1 persons opinion.
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Oh yeah.
The Norris>Davis post is another 1. Norris dons’t have nearly the polish or secondary stuff as Davis. Also I drafted Westmoreland and Norris in the SSKL so it’s not like I dislike either prospect, in fact the opposite I like both very much so there isn’t and bias there.
LOL you seriously have a problem with this one?
From YOU later in this thread: “The Havens>Cardenas post was great. LOVED IT. Those type posts and prospect smackdowns are great.”
How is Norris vs. Wade Davis ANYTHING different from that? It’s exactly the same. You have now successfully contradicted yourself.
WordUpThome: I CANNOT BELIVE THAT THIS PRODUCT IS NOT BUTTER
Formerly Gallagher's Watermelons
by CaliforniaJag on Aug 1, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I just hope they catch the guy who put the gun to your head and made you read those threads
Hopefully they put that bastard away for a looooong time.
by alskor on Jul 31, 2009 12:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I wonder if that guy also made him write one long jumbled paragraph that I absolutely refuse to read
Somebody tell me if a good point was made.
by thejd44 on Aug 1, 2009 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions
+1000
Enough with this. See ESPN, where there is an article called, “They’re called prospects for a reason.” We have no idea how these guys will turn out, and to compare them straight up is just stupid. We overvalue these guys to such a ridiculous level. Look, if you want to compare arm action of a pitcher to a major leaguer. But you cannot compare a prospect to a pro straight up, at least the superstars of today. It’s just stupid
cubsfan1 > Dewey Finn
Honestly, I have stopped reading almost any thread started by Dewey Finn. He is Bravesin07 v2.0… seemingly more intelligent, but not as entertaining.
Adam Dunn: Proof that even sabermetrics doesn't have it right.
THANK YOU Cubbie!!
I too am so tired of being flooded with quotes about this guy > the proven guy. Especially during the trade deadline periods…“every” prospect is considered untouchable. This makes everyone believe even more the prospect is worth more than the ML player! Guys…Fantasy is now a business. The hype machines are a business…to sell magazines, book, subscriptions! It is REVENUE!! The more you read…the more you eat…the more you buy!
The results being…the Cahill and Mazarro arguments! WTF is everyone smoking??
I like
Dewey Finn – the man starts conversations.
Quick point. Im not sure how this keeps getting ignored, but in this case Dewey did not create that comp. It was a baseball writer. He simply repeated it to see what conversation could happen.
+1
Generating discussion on prospects is a GOOD thing. When someone posts a fanpost and gives stats, quotes from scouts, and a reasonable upside comparison, what is the problem? Too many guys on this site are quick to criticize people like Dewey and myself, yet they never seem to create any content (i.e. fanpost) for the community to discuss.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Jul 31, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
If the hate is that strong, as mentioned multiple times in this thread: Ignore the threads he creates. This place benefits from Dewey’s threads, I have no doubt about that…
+1
Couldn’t agree more. Prospect analysis isn’t scripture to be followed like dogma. The point of comparison is analysis, not projection. The point of analysis may be projection in some cases, but the projection is a product of the analysis, not the comparison. We can all agree its silly to say simply that “Cahill is better than Webb”. This is obviously not true to anyone who knows anything about baseball, even someone who doesn’t know who Cahill is could reasonably infer that this probably isn’t true, but that doesn’t mean saying “Cahill is better than Webb was five years ago” can’t tell us anything. It can tell us what Cahill is doing right, what markers and red flags to look for in his development, and give us a bit of insight on what the possible outcomes for Cahill are. Saying “Cahill is better than Webb five years ago” DOES NOT IN ANY WAY suggest that Cahill now must follow a congruent development path to Webb and thus eventually become a better player. The term must is universal, and in this case implies a type of deductive, syllogistic logic that is NEVER present in statistical analysis, which is, by its very nature, a form of induction.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 7, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
FWIW
My sole purpose on this site is to encourage discussions on topics that I find interesting. Whether it be comparing a prospect to a current major leaguer, projecting upsides of prospects, or even discussing controversial issues such as the ages Latin baseball players, and today Canseco’s contribution to baseball.
For me, It’s not about getting people on board with my opinion, I appreciate comments that both agree and disagree with what I have to say. That is the beauty of a message board, is it not?
I just don’t see the point of people making comments that they don’t like reading my posts. If that is truly the case, then don’t read it. Simply ignore anything written by me. That’s not too hard is it?
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
Prospect discusion IS good.
If your making a reasonable post to create discussion thats awsome. But when you make statements like Knapp = Halladay clone is just downright ridiculous to say a guy who has posted 116 2/3 ip and none of it above Low A is a clone of a Cy Young award winner, established player, and 1 of the best pitchers in the game. It’s like saying Stasburg > Koufax before Stras has even thrown a pitch in profesional baseball. If your making shock statements for the pure fact to generate discussion and not based on being a reasonable argument then I think it’s not productive. I don’t hate Dewey or KBR I just think people are fed up with seeing ridiculous posts for the sake of starting convos that have little to no merit and being recomended (by the same ppl) like they are great fanposts, when in reality the are being recomended by the same little click.
Jeez
Did you even read the post “Jason Knapp = Roy Halladay Clone?” ? NOTE THE QUESTION MARK!
I was questioning a comment made by a scout and presenting it to the community.
I never compared Knapp to Halladay. Please read carefully next time.
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
People aren't complaining about the post, they're complaining about the deliberately sensationalized, manipulative headlines.
If you think a comparison is ridiculous, it shouldn’t be given any credence at all.
If you headline a post “Scout compares Jason Knapp to Halladay” and then critique his logic in the body of the post, I don’t think anyone would have any problems with that.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
This.
I have tried to explain this to him about a dozen times, but he doesn’t seem to be able to comprehend it. His posts’ content aren’t the problem. They’re not great posts, but they’re not terrible, either.
The problem is that people rec them without fail, and that Dewey is only encouraging them by going out of his way to be controversial and manipulative.
by RedSoxFaithful on Jul 31, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
The reccing is sarcastic
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
you're probably right
I am not naive to believe that I have ‘fans’ out there, haha.
Perhaps there’s a cult following? Either way, I’m not changing my style.
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
by Dewey Finn on Jul 31, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
attention grabbing headlines (my fanpost titles)
What I do is no different from what newspapers do. They create a headline that will draw attention and get the person to open up the newspaper and read the article. I do the same.
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
Hmm
You want to base your writing style on a business model that’s imploding before our very eyes? What’s next, you going to start buying stock in butter churn or buggy whip manufacturers?
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Aug 1, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
as long as I can keep you as a loyal reader...
I’ll be fine ;)
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
To be fair
The online blogging business model is thriving and they are even more sensationalistic than newspapers. Sites like Perezhilton.com generate huge traffic with this approach.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Aug 2, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot of your headlines are actually misleading (like the Canseco HOF post)
That’s not what newspapers are (supposed to be) doing
by thejd44 on Aug 5, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Dewey seems to have a hard time coming to terms with the fact
that most people actually don’t like being bait-and-switched.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
This is a fair criticism
And probably is a part of the reason Dewey’s posts seem to generate so many more comments, because he deliberately uses a false conclusion as his title. Its possible to create catchy titles without being misleading, and the act of being misleading typically only adds to the level of “noise” in discussion.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 7, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Canseco future HOF?
Come on be serious. A man who was a catalyst for starting the use of PEDS then turned around and snitched on everyone for doing the same thing he did and started should be in consideration for the HOF? Yeah lets put a guy in the HOF who started this whole problem. I cannot see how this is a good post..
There were no PEDs before Jose Canseco?
You are making it sound like Jose Canseco is the Pablo Escobar of Major League Baseball.
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
How many people....?
How many players were shooting anabolic steriods before Canseco?
ever hear of amphetamines? greenies?
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
Yup
Such “pure” stars and “patrons” of the game like Hank Aaron and Mike Schmidt took amphetamines, but nobody cares about that.
Solace: Law says he's a fourth OFer
PaulThomas: I think Keith Law is only a fourth analyst
UHHHH
While I am not condoning the use of"greenies" it’s a bit of a stretch to put them on the same level as shooting F***ing steriods into your body that make you bigger,faster, stronger and rebound faster from not only injuries but the day-to-day grind. Never heard of amphetamines making a middle releiver who threw in the upper 80’s before use, to mid-90s.
which middle reliever went from upper 80s to mid-90s due to roids?
I’m honestly curious, are there documented cases of this type of transformation that can be attributed to steroids (or HGH or any other similar type of PED)?
Also, the point of using amphetamines was in fact to be able to overcome the wear and tear of the daily grind.
exactly
MLB is attempting to isolate this problem as much as possible. PEDs were around long before Jose Canseco came along and provided tutorials to anyone that would listen. It is much easier for Major League Baseball to isolate the issue and refer it to the “Steroid Era” outling the late 80s to early 00s, rather than admit that baseball has always had cheaters.
Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!
i agree baseball has always had cheaters
but I also think you should try to limit the “cheaters”. And i agree steroids are a different degree of gaining an advantage from amphetamines. Like the difference between looking back at where the catcher is set up to having binoculars in the centerfield fence to steal signs. Or, almost like the difference between taking St. John’s Wort and coffee or Xanax. As an aside, I also think Bill James is being a bit naive to just say that steroids help guys stay young. I don’t look at giant bulbous heads and body-builder physiques and think, gee how youthful.
Its a completely different class of substance
The thing about amphetamines is you can take them every day, multiple times a day, and pretty much stay awake, alert, and focused with no apparent side effects. So while they may not increase muscle mass, it is possible to argue that the cumulative effect of amphetamine usage can have at least as great an impact on shifting a player’s level of play than years of steroid cycles do. The problem wasn’t that steroids became “favored” so much as the fact that amphetamines are just so easy to test for, and there really isn’t another class of substance that functions in quite the same way. Drugs like Caffeine and Ritalin have negative effects on motor function (hand shaking for example), obviously not a benefit to baseball players, and not something typically associated with typical amphetamine usage.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Aug 7, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
For the record...
It’s not like I don’t like some of your posts Dewey. The Havens>Cardenas post was great. LOVED IT. Those type posts and prospect smackdowns are great. I just hate the stupid comparisons of guys who have never played in the majors or even above A ball being compared to ML superstars.
i liked the cardenas/havens idea
not sure how much i agreed with it, but it was still a topic of conversation, so it served its purpose.
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
cubsfan1
Im not sure of another way to say this, I think it’s been said multiple times:
Dewey Finn did not compare Roy Halladay (ML Superstar) to Jason Knapp (Guy in A Ball). A sportswriter did.
Even if he did, so what? Bad comparison? Yes. It sure is. I mean, theyre each pitchers who have some good scrabble letters in their names. Theyre pretty tall. Theyre righties. That’s about it.
Anyway, if you don’t like those posts, as has been recommended, don’t read them.
if you don’t like a thread, just leave it alone…
I find that people like making comparisons. It provides a frame of reference. Also, I’m not sure that it is comparing as much as projecting. What could Aball guy be?
-1
It isn’t your place to moderate the forum, that is John’s. We are here to discuss prospects and however ridiculous you think Dewey’s opening posts are, that is exactly what he starts every single time. A prospect discussion. I bet John likes Dewey on this forum because it gets hits, traffic, and conversation going when he can’t post updates. This community continues to amaze me, probably the worst I visit when it’s all said and done. Many of you have a good bit of knowledge but you can’t get over being complete assholes to everyone. If everyone had the exact same opinions and thoughts, there wouldn’t be anything to discuss.
So if you think a post is ridiculous, reply to the post in a respectful way and give your counter points so it can be debated.
by jfish26101 on Aug 1, 2009 10:43 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
FINE JOB!!!!
I happen to like both BKR and FINNS post ,and i read them all cause of the different opinions. The major league comps are great , it gives a feel of what kind of player they could be. Keep posting guys
I like the posts
since it’s a baseball prospect discussion. And this is a baseball prospect website. And I come hear to read people argue and discuss. If I wanted anything less, I would just stay at foxsports.com.
Im very confused...
What exactly is wrong with comparing a prospect to a major league player. Thats the entire point of a comp, to say what type of player we see the prospect developing in to.
Whats the point of comparing a guy after he’s proven his skill set? The fun/interest comes from those early comps and how they work out
nothing wrong with comparing a prospect to an MLB player,
they’re just arguing as to how people make their post, thus gathering more hits. I do agree with cubbies, that I dislike how Dewey titles his posts, but some of the content is good when you get past the general crap. The issue I have is the condescending tone that pretty much pisses the majority of the general public off. Sarcasm is something else that is easily misunderstood in print. Apparently that’s another issue with certain members in the community.
"When Justin Upton faces Lincecum, I think Christ might appear in the heavens, and the world will end." -JakeFree
one long unreadable paragraph > enter key
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