Futures Game Summation
**It was just one game. As discussed with Eric Hosmer last week, you shouldn't overreact to what you see in one game, especially a game played under "non normal" conditions such as an exhibition. That said, I'll turn around and make some bullet point observations anyway.
**I didn't like Mat Latos' delivery at all. It just screamed "arm problems" to me. I also thought Brian Matusz's delivery looked a bit more awkward than I remembered from college. On the other hand, I thought Kyle Drabek looked really good. Jarrod Parker and Jhouyls Chacin also lived up to expectations for me. Ironic. . .Drabek has already blown out his elbow, while Matusz has been durable and Latos (despite injury problems) has avoided major surgery thus far.
**Leyson Septimo looked pretty impressive, good movement and velocity, enough stuff that he won't have to be confined to LOOGYdom, provided he throws enough strikes of course.
**Pedro Alvarez looked OK, but he didn't look anywhere near as good as Heyward or Lawrie, just to name two guys who really stood out to me.
**Jason Castro: Love the Glove. Yeah, he hit the home run, too, but it was a hanging breaking ball. I'm still not convinced he'll be more than average with the bat, but that will be good enough for him to be a starter nevertheless.
.**Mike Stanton....very impressive. Looks like he might have some vulnerability to outside pitches due to the way he stands in the box, but he's made such strides with his plate discipline that it is hard to complain.
**Everyone is talking about Tyson Gillies, who wowed the crowed with his tremendous speed and excellent hustle. Here is what I wrote in the book about him.
Gillies was a 25th round pick in 2006, out of high school in Vancouver, Canada. He signed as a draft-and-follow guy in the spring of 2007. His best tool is speed: he's blazing fast, and is already an excellent defensive outfielder. He is less effective with the bat; he shows some signs of controlling the strike zone, but he lacks strength and power, and he is still learning to use his speed on the bases. Unless his power develops unexpectedly, he looks like a potential reserve to me. Grade C.
He's hitting .327/.435/.472 this year for High Desert....that's .312/.427/.494 at home, ..342/.444/.450 on the road, so the home park has only helped him slightly. He's stolen 23 bases but has been caught 12 times, so he still has work to do using that speed efficiently on the bases. His Isolated Power was .108 last year, .145 this year, so he's shown more pop but it's not exactly a huge power outburst. He's controlling the strike zone very well and drawing walks with 45 in 350 plate appearances. I'd like to see what he does in Double-A before going all-out with the grade, but he's certainly a lot of fun to watch, and his makeup is reportedly outstanding. I'd move him to Grade B- right now pending more data.
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Comments
Nice Stuff John
The most interesting point to me has been Latos. Some people have said the complete opposite of your points about his delivery.
KG, BP “His straight up-and-down delivery is easy, repeatable, and has a bit of deception”
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by JDSussman on Jul 13, 2009 1:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
latos
I thought it looked awkward and stressful on the elbow.
by John Sickels on Jul 13, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny
Most of what I have read, is that they like his delivery, easy velocity….
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by jbluestone on Jul 13, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
Yeah, that’s what a lot of people say.
I say different. :)
by John Sickels on Jul 13, 2009 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you watched the futures game
It was pretty jarring.
by aCone419 on Jul 14, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beat me to it...
Metty, I was just cutting and pasting to start a separate thread on the disparity between John and KG on this issue. I am not sure how I missed your post the first time around, but I am glad I did not embarrass myself with my own thread. I respect both John and KG and I too was taken by how divergent their opinions were of Matos’ mechanics. I can’t recall John and Kevin having such starkly different observations of same player’s performance previously. I would love to know what other folks think about Matos’ delivery.
by CouncilmanJim on Jul 13, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
kevin
Kevin knows his stuff really well. He likely knows much more about pitching mechanics than I do, and if you choose to be guided by his opinion, that’s certainly a very logical and defensible point of view, and I won’t argue with it.
To my eye, Latos’ delivery looks like it stresses his elbow excessively.
by John Sickels on Jul 13, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No insult intended
John, by no means was I saying KG was right and you were wrong. I am not qualified to say someone’s mechanics are good or bad, and I have followed you long enough and have been helped by your insights enough times for me to show you the proper respect. I am just curious that two respected guys such as yourselves differed so greatly on this one. It should be fun looking back on this in time and seeing how it played out… much thanks.
by CouncilmanJim on Jul 14, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
insult
Sorry if it came across defensively. I’ve got a lot of stress going on right now.
by John Sickels on Jul 14, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and I liked this so much tweeted this for ya! haha
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I'll be trying to post lines and analysis as much as possible.
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by JDSussman on Jul 13, 2009 1:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re: Gillies
The kid obviously looked impressive, but I can’t help but to think this one game is going to make him a little overrated.
And regarding his power, the average ISO in the NWL was .116 in 2008, the average ISO in the CAL is .146. Add that with the fact High Desert is an extreme hitters park in the CAL, he hasn’t really improved his power.
And just a small pet peeve, just because his home/road splits are close, doesn’t mean that High Desert hasn’t helped him a good amount. Small sample sizes there and we know for a for fact High Desert is very much a hitters park.
by bigboy1234 on Jul 13, 2009 1:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gillies
This does have the feeling of going from under rated to over rated in 1 game flat. That said, here is an answer from the BA chat about him:
cjb (madison, wi): opinion on Tyson Gillies? + or – being an Ellsbury type of lead off hitter.
Ben Badler: He could be. I agree with pretty much everything the scout from Jim Callis’ Futures Game story said about Gillies.
by FRANCHISEv2 on Jul 13, 2009 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
“He was almost like Jacoby Ellsbury for me, a lefthanded leadoff hitter with the speed to make things happen,” said a scout with a National League club. “He’s a high-energy guy who just seems like he does everything right. Looking at what he did in High Desert, the way that park is friendly to hitters, I was skeptical. But seeing him here had me pretty excited. I can’t think of any major leaguers who could run that time from home to first on a drag bunt.”
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/futures-game/2009/268532.html
by rdf8585 on Jul 13, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kelly
I came away pleasantly surprised by Casey Kelly’s inning of work. Delivery looked good, command was there and velocity was as expected.
Overall, a fun game to watch..
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Jul 13, 2009 2:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
League average bat + good glove = All-Star catcher
If a guy can be +7.5 runs (not hard for a catcher if you shut down the running game and block a lot of balls in the dirt) with the glove, and league-average with the bat, that’s a player who’s two wins above average once you factor in positional adjustment.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Jul 13, 2009 5:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's pretty much what Kurt Suzuki's been this year,
right?
Outman, fighter of the Hitman, champion of the K, he's a master of scoreless innings and friendship for everyone.
by walk off bunt on Jul 13, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, and I think the comparisons between them are fairly solid
although I expect Castro to hit for more power and less average.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Jul 14, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
heck if you hit .216
and play excellent defense, you’re still above average (see Molina, Yadier, early career)
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by harendaman365 on Jul 14, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure if this is the right place to ask this question, but is Heyward not pretty much the consensus #1 at this point? And if not, how close is he to being there?
Q: If on-base pct is so important then why don't they put it on the scoreboard? -Failcoeur
A: Because the Braves don't want to show their fans how bad you suck.
by timmy3 on Jul 13, 2009 6:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Heyward
He’s number one in my mind. But, there’s not a clear consensus. Bumgarner, Heyward, Strasburg (when he signs), (maybe) and maybe Stanton could all be considered the number one prospect, depends on who you ask. Any other guys I’m missing?
by byronlhsdrmr on Jul 13, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he's consensus right now
but won’t be if/when Strasburg signs
by was385 on Jul 13, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question for you...
… and everyone
Why the fuck do we have to wait for Strasburg to sign for him to be anything??? Its such an arbitrary and unavoidable outcome.
Seems actually retarded to not just rank him now.
by casejud on Jul 14, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah
Out of guys you’d generally consider to have the raw physical talent to be elite, keeping in mind the age-relative-to-competition factor, he’s certainly having one of the better statistical seasons . . .but that doesn’t mean he’s the best prospect. If that was the case, Andy Marte and Jeremy Hermida would both be perennial All Stars (or something close to it) by now. It’s about trying to determine who’s developing in such a way that he’ll be a top producer in the majors . . .no doubt Heyward rates up there, but if there’s a consensus at this point, it’s a mistake.
Guys I could see an argument for:
Heyward
Tillman
Strasburg (let’s just throw him in there, risking injury and wasting valuable service time accumulation in the majors due to signing next year is NOT in his best interests)
Bumgarner
Aroldis Chapman (some folks seem to love him)
Stanton
Drabek
D. Brown
M. Taylor
Carlos Santana
Buster Posey
Smoak
And that’s just who I could see as a possibility . . .I’m sure there are people I’m forgetting, and others that some other folks are really high on and would push.
by mrkupe on Jul 13, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would have loved to see Smoak, Posey and MadBum in this game. Of course, the first 2 weren’t invited and MadBum and Tazawa got shafted by the rain delay. I really think that they need to open up the rules from 2 guys per MLB team allowed. Probably they could just do it by adding to the number of position players invited. Are you trying to tell me that there was no room for Smoak to play several innings at 1B on Sunday? Carter ended up playing all 7 innings there for the USA team. Other guys that played all 7 were Jennings for the USA, and Escobar, Gillies and Lawrie for the World. IMO, that’s just not fair to the players or the fans.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 13, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you've listed three Phillies too many
by byronlhsdrmr on Jul 13, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
All are outstanding prospects. All have a very solid chance to be well above-average players for quite a few years.
Personally, I think excluding them from the conversation is just groupthink. There is very little to complain about with any of the Phillies’ trio. And often times guys who aren’t “in the conversation” so to speak emerge to become some of the best players from the list, let alone the guys who are. Of course, my goal is to jump ahead in that process and figure them out beforehand.
What makes, say, Michael Taylor a worse prospect than Jason Heyward? I’m assuming you’re going to say age, but I would argue that both have tremendous potential with the bat and that Taylor at age 25 in MLB probably stands to be a player of similar productivity as Heyward at age 25 in MLB (give or take a bit on either end). Perhaps Heyward is a HoFer in the making, but I don’t believe in making such a ridiculous forecast so early in the game, and if he’s not, I don’t think I’m wrong for arguing that Taylor is comparable. Heyward may be younger and perhaps that means that he’ll get to play longer . . .but it’s really, really hard to try to figure out what a player in his teens or young 20s is going to look like as a 30-something-year-old player. I just work with what I have.
by mrkupe on Jul 13, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because 19 year olds develop
When Taylor was 21 he was OPSing .665 in short season A ball.
When Heyward is 21 he will be facing major league pitching.
That should tell you enough.
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by VivaLosBravos on Jul 14, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it doesn't.
I do not care what Michael Taylor did when he was 21, because he is not 21 and he is not OPSing .665. The guy has put up an OPS of well over .900 at three different stops in the last two years.
Heyward will likely be quite good, but while his rate of development has been faster thus far, it does NOT mean that his upside is that much greater (if it is in fact greater) than Taylor’s. You’re suggesting that the relationship of age-relative-to-competition is linear, which is something I do not believe to be true. If it was, then there is no possible way that Taylor could ever match Heyward’s production assuming that both develop as expected from this point forward. In reality, we’re working with calculus and not algebra here. No matter how spectacular the initial rate of development might be, the reality is that almost all players level out to a certain extent at the highest levels – individual player performance, adjusted for luck, has an approachable (if not yet clearly defined) limit. I add the qualifier “almost” only because we do have some cases of incredibly fast development to a tremendously high peak level of player (Albert Pujols being the modern example) . . .but even there, I do not see anything conclusive as to whether Pujols just represents the extreme end of the system rather than breaking it outright.
It doesn’t seem unreasonable to suggest that Heyward in his prime is, say, a perennial .950 OPS as a high-end outcome. But I see nothing that suggests that Michael Taylor is incapable of the same. After all, his tools are outstanding and he’s done just this over the last two seasons. The margin of reasonable expectations out of the two players is quite close, and certainly close enough to the point where personal preferences for various aspects of each’s game are enough to shift your opinion in one direction or the other. The one thing I will concede is that, being 4 years younger, Heyward might be expected to have a longer duration of major league success than Taylor . . .but once again, trying to predict that either of these guys at 35 is going to resemble the player that they are in their early 20s seems a bit much for me. While I do understand and appreciate the literature that suggests major league players who develop earlier have a longer career duration than those who do not, I also understand that this is a general rule with plenty of exceptions, and I don’t see why I’d believe that either player can be categorized under either heading just yet, especially when neither has received so much as a single major league AB. Hell, Heyward (despite his freakish athleticism) has even had some minor injury issues as a teenager, which makes trying to project his longevity even more difficult than your standard case. There are just some things you and I don’t know, and there is no reason other than unwarranted hype to pretend that we do or even that we can. But as for the things that we DO know, we do know that both players look like they have a high-probability at producing at a high level in the major leagues. And given that, I see no reason why you can’t or shouldn’t prefer Taylor to Heyward other than groupthink, and I think by now that we all know better than to put all of our faith in that method of evaluation, especially when comparing players as talented as these.
by mrkupe on Jul 14, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So would anybody
take Taylor over Heyward if you were a GM and could take either right now.
by smoooooth on Jul 14, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Define "anybody"
If we’re talking about fans, people on this website, that sort of thing, my guess is that you’d find maybe 1 out of 20 or so who would take Taylor over Heyward. If we’re talking about scouts, GMs, baseball insiders, those sorts . . .I’d guess something like 7 out of 10, perhaps 8 out of 10 take Heyward over Taylor. At the same time, you could turn it around and say 2 or 3 out of 10 would take Taylor over Heyward. If BA put something out there like that, you’d suddenly start seeing people on here saying, “Wait a second . . .couldn’t that 20 percent be right?” I’m sure they’re out there, but the information isn’t really put out there for whatever reason (my assumption would be for the various prospect-watcher publications’ marketing purposes). And for the most part, I just see an utter lack of willingness to really go against the groupthink perpetuated by the big publications. For some reason people seem to think that putting Neftali Feliz at No. 25 rather than No. 10 on a top prospect list means something . . .it really doesn’t. Putting Neftali Feliz at No. 75, however, just might.
In 2006, how many people do you think would have taken Delmon Young (#1 on BA’s list) over Carlos Quentin (#20 on BA’s list)? Quentin was one month and a broken bone away from winning the AL MVP last year. Delmon Young wore out his welcome in one place, seems to be well on his way to doing so in a second, and has struggled to even be a replacement-level player in the meantime. If it can happen then, it can happen now.
by mrkupe on Jul 14, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
anyone=people on this site who read this, who they'd take
I was just wondering how close this was. You never did mention who you’d take, which I would find much more interesting than some speculative percentages, groupthink accusations and a Young Quentin comp. I personally would take the 19 year old over the 23 year old if I thought they were at similar talent levels.
by smoooooth on Jul 15, 2009 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
stuff
What, is the Young/Quentin comp too inconvenient for you? I gave an example of two players of the same position, both considered good-to-excellent prospects in a given year, but given a choice between the two at the time virtually everybody would have taken Player A over Player B. It’s still relatively early but obviously, we screwed up and took the wrong guy. Looking back on it, there is really no excuse as to why Quentin wasn’t mentioned in the same breath other than that in the eyes of most expert opinion Quentin was a “good” prospect while Young was a “great” prospect, and that making an evaluation that Quentin was superior would be going against the vast majority of opinion.
I can find a ton of examples in which groupthink has come up with oddball results . . .I’ll pull out another one, which I referred to an earlier post. In Metty5’s top 50 prospect list (disclaimer: I happen to think that Metty5 is one of the more grounded posters on this site), he says about Neftali Feliz, “While his stock has dropped in the eyes of many, I never had him THAT high to begin with.” Okay . . .so does Metty5 surprise us by having him as, say, prospect No. 50 on his list? Top 75? Does Metty5 really shock us by saying that while he acknowledges and respects Feliz’s natural talent and notes that he has a chance to succeed, he doesn’t quite make the top 100?
Well . . .no. Actually, he has Neftali as No. 18 on the list. He thinks that out of all minor league pitchers, Feliz (who he’s not that high on by his own words!) is a better prospect than all but 6 of them! Don’t you find that discord to be the least bit unsettling? I certainly did.
Concerning Taylor and Heyward, the reason I haven’t said who I would take is because frankly, I haven’t decided which one I would take. Or even that the one of thsoe two that I would take would be the No. 1 prospect. I’m using Taylor here as a case study . . .but you’d have to figure, given his undeniable talent (he rated No. 23 on BA’s list) and his performance, there’s at least SOME chance that he’s better than Jason Heyward, right? What kind of rough estimation do you think the odds of that happening are?
Last but not least, do you think the answer to that last question would correspond roughly to the percentage of people who would take Taylor over Heyward right now? Shouldn’t it? And if it doesn’t, then what does that say about the evaluation process?
by mrkupe on Jul 15, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jumping in...
The thread is a little heated, and I may not understand the argument, so my opinion is this…
Could Taylor be better than Heyward? Sure.
Could Heyward be better than Taylor? Sure.
Are they producing at close to the same level right now? Sure, if any edge to be given goes to Taylor.
Who’s the better prospect? Heyward.
Why? Simple, because he’s younger and all the advantages that go along with that.
That just seems pretty straight forward, so not sure the reason for the debate. It’s just simple prospecting, edge to the younger guy because you have a better idea for ceiling with the older guy.
I like Taylor, for sure, but Heyward is the rarer prospect.
Right now Taylor is a 30-30 guy, Heyward is a 30 hr guy. But the fact that Heyward is a 30 hr guy at 19 makes it more impressive because we don’t know what his ceiling will be at 23, and that is what makes him for valuable to me.
Poster formerly known as artie
by beastball on Jul 15, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
I didn’t think it was heated at all . . .I’m quite enjoying the discussion.
It may be simple prospecting to you, but I just don’t see the basis here. If Taylor’s ceiling is as a 30-30 player with a strong batting average . . .well, isn’t that a REALLY impressive and rare ceiling? Just because his ceiling may be more readily apparent due to his age does not make it any less impressive. Heyward’s ceiling is also very high, obviously, but is it that much higher (or necessarily higher at all) than Taylor’s? We may not know exactly what his ceiling is, but that is not inherently a good thing.
I’d also remind you of my earlier assertion that player performance curves are not linear, but in fact approach a limit. So while Heyward may have an elite ceiling, it is by no means a unique one, not even when evaluated against only the pool of his peers.
by mrkupe on Jul 15, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
It’s as someone else mentioned, debating between #1 and #15 is kinda splitting hairs, so…
Sometimes the answer is really simple, if you’re talking about two players at the same level posting similar stats with similar tools, then the difference maker is age. That’s why it’s simple.
I’d be happy with Taylor as a 300-30-30 man. Given Heyward is posting similar numbers (minus SBs) being 3 years younger means there’s projection left, so he may not be just a 300-30 guy, he may post Manny-type numbers, so 330-50.
There are risks involved, sure. Taylor could easily backslide, Heyward could back slide, that’s the nature of prospects.
Anyway, like I started with, deciding these ratings are really splitting hairs, but when most things are equal, you look to what isn’t, and in this case, the biggest difference is age, and that difference is significant, and given that, Heyward seems to clearly be the superior prospect. He may not end up being the superior player, but he is the superior prospect.
Poster formerly known as artie
by beastball on Jul 15, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I
don’t see that much difference from a #1 ranked guy vs. #20. The top 50 and even out to a 100 guys are all high end players and have chances to be outstanding players. I tend to take rankings not as literally as some do, it’s more a reference as to who’s good. I find them mostly subjective as to who did the rankings and most people have attributes they value more so than others. It’s kind of like the college football rankings. A bunch of people who have never seen most of the teams somehow get to rank them in order of who they think is best and most of the time the results leave something to be desired.
So your comp of Young vs. Quentin doesn’t really do much for me, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if some guy ranked lower than these two had a better career. A lot has to do with opportunity and environment. I personally think that if Quentin was still in Arizona and Young in Tampa that things would be quite different from how they are now. Quentin and Chicago are a great fit for each other and he’s benefited greatly from it, much more so than he ever could have in Arizona.
As for Neftali Feliz, I just don’t see what he has to do with Heyward and Taylor and who you would take, what I really want to know. I might actually be able to come up with more than 6 pitchers I would prefer over him. If people get upset over their guy being ranked 6th best minor league pitcher, especially when he still is more of a thrower, well, then oh well.
So if you want to wait and choose not to say one player or the other fine but don’t come round here with bunch of other BS, just say that, I would understand, the rest of this is all filler.
by smoooooth on Jul 15, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll even open it up a litte more
If you could pick one minor league OF to be the cornerstone of your outfield who would you take. It’s pretty simple, looking for opinions, there is no right or wrong answer. I’ll even allow guys who have exhausted their rookie eligibility this year into the discussion. So if you want Rasmus or FMart go ahead, pick em
by smoooooth on Jul 15, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
more stuff
None of this is filler, or “BS” as you put it. Sorry if you’re taking any of this personally for whatever reason . . .it was not my intent.
Agreed on the matter of rankings not meaning terribly much, but that’s another story entirely. To explain why I chose the comparison that I did, I took two players at the same defensive position with a similar gap in stature on BA’s rankings list (Quentin was #20 in 2006 when Young was the consensus #1) as Taylor and Heyward (Taylor #23, Heyward #1). I guess it also works in that the prospect profiles match up nicely, but that wasn’t my main intent.
Quentin’s definitely benefited from the environment in Chicago, but I think he might’ve been even better in Arizona. Arizona is actually a better park for hitters than the Cell, and Justin Upton is at least as good and probably better lineup protection than anybody the White Sox have. Young had over 1200 ABs in 2007-2008 despite well below average production in both seasons, so I can’t say that he hasn’t had opportunities to show something. And he’s been even worse this year. For what it’s worth, I’m almost positive that you’ll find numerous players rated lower than both who end up being better over the long-run, but wouldn’t that just strengthen my point of view?
by mrkupe on Jul 15, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jesus Montero
was #3 on BA’s midseason top 25. I dont like him that high, nor would I advocate him as #1… but he likely deserves to be in the discussion despite his lack of patience.
by alskor on Jul 13, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Castro and Carter
Thanks for the analysis John – insightful as usual.
I have 2 questions.
1. How can you say you love Castro’s glove off of this game? Sure his arm was great, but he was very lazy on several pitches that I saw. He just reached out with his glove and didn’t move his body at all. It ended up biting him on the one play in the 7th where he let the ball get by him and the runner advanced. I’ve never seen him play before, so maybe you’re going on past observations?
2. I thought that Carter looked horrible at 1B. He seemed to have no clue on how to stretch for a throw, and he botched the ground ball in the 7th that turned into a double and knocked in the tieing run – he should have at least knocked it down to keep the runners on 1st and 3rd. Is he always this bad on D? Beyond that, his at-bats were unimpressive, to say the least. Why did the USA have nobody better to sub in for him? I can’t believe he got to play the whole game when other, seemingly more-deserving, USA players were limited to 2 or 3 innings.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 13, 2009 7:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
castro
combination of college observations and arm strength and scouting reports.
by John Sickels on Jul 13, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Valid observations...
just want to remind you the field conditions were terrible.
by alskor on Jul 13, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty sure people in the know see him as either a corner OF or a DH
He’s just not good at handling ground balls.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Jul 14, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
John
What’d you think of Duffy? I wish Ozzie would have let him throw a full inning….
Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.
by 306008 on Jul 13, 2009 11:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he was going to pitch the 6th full
rain shafted him
how hard was he throwing? did you watch it? i had work.
baseball rules.
by doublestix on Jul 13, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They actually have a full game day with radar readings
b/c of where it was held
93, 93, 92, 74 (curve), 73 (curve), 93, 92, 83 (change), 93
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2009_07_12_wftmin_uftmin_1
by alskor on Jul 13, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
duffy
was around 96 consistently in his inning at the cal league all star game. . . one scout said “he looks like a nice reliever”
by SoCalSoxFan on Jul 14, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That scout sucks.
Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.
by 306008 on Jul 15, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some other velocity readings-
Neftali Feliz: high 90’s(97-100). Triple digits 6 times in the first, 101 once.
Chris Tillman: 93-95. Topped out at 96
Kyle Drabek: 95-96
Brian Matusz: 92-94
Matt Latos: 95-96
Chacin: Low 92-93, a few lower. Touched 94 once.
Casey Kelly: 93-94
Trevor Reckling: 90-91
Brad Lincoln: 94-95
by alskor on Jul 13, 2009 11:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Probably also should be noted
These guys knew that they were pitching 1 inning max, in front of a ton of interested scouts and a national TV audience . . .so they were most likely throwing a bit harder than they usually would in an real game. I figure it adds ~ 2-3 MPH on average.
by mrkupe on Jul 14, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
And throwing harder was likely counterproductive for quite a few guys.
"There's only one cure for what's wrong with all of us pitchers, and that's to take a year off. Then, after you've gone a year without throwing, quit altogether." -Jim Palmer
by Baltimo on Jul 14, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Some guys get nervous and lose velocity. It’s important to note the ease at which they are throwing. If you get tense, you lose explosion and power.
Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.
by 306008 on Jul 15, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OR gameday adds 2-3
A lot of people observed that the ESPN gun was a lot slower than the gameday velocity readings, and while I don’t think the ESPN numbers were reliable either, I also think the gameday numbers looked a bit high. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I’d knock maybe 1 mph off those readings.
On Duffy, ESPN had those FB at 90-91 instead of 92-93. I’d guess 91-92.
by acerimusdux on Jul 15, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
drabek
started out at 97 last week in a regular start in Reading, then settled in around 94. . . same gun had Alderson at 88-89
by SoCalSoxFan on Jul 14, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Careful !
The Alderson fan club around here still thinks he’s going to be an Ace or 1/2 starter!
by alskor on Jul 15, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know that was mostly in jest, but I think even the most ardent Alderson enthusiast would acknowledge that he regularly throws his FB in the 88-90 range, with occasional dips to 86-87, and blips up to 91-92. The most ardent believe that he’ll add about 20% to his FB velocity as he reaches his true physical maturity, but that still only puts him at 90-92. Alderson won’t be a flamethrower. If he’s going to be successful it will be through command and control, movement on his FB, spotting his great curve, and developing a potent changeup.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 16, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One more thing
With Lincecum, Cain in the Bigs, and MadBum on his way, I believe that most Alderson fanatics don’t expect him to be a 1/2 starter.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 16, 2009 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
most impressive offspeed pitch?
i thought chacin’s changeup was #1. tillman’s curve, as well as drabek’s curve (though i think he only threw one) also looked quite good. any other thoughts?
by drewlev on Jul 14, 2009 11:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
casey kelly
The fact that Kelly was hitting 94 with his FB might make him sneak in to my top 30. The curveball, control, and command are all easily plus, the change will probably be above-average but he definitely has time to get that pitch to be plus as well.
by J51 on Jul 14, 2009 5:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kelly
I think he might have been the biggest beneficiary of the environment re: velocity . . .not only was he pitching a one inning stint, but he also knew it was the last pitching work that he was going to do this season, giving him no reason to hold anything back. Haven’t the game reports on him suggested he’s more in the 88-90 range?
Obviously he could add more velocity as a starting pitcher and there seems to be a pretty substantial group of people who think he’ll do just that (his work in the Futures Game should encourage that optimism). But shouldn’t we rely much more on what he’s actually shown in such situations for the moment?
by mrkupe on Jul 14, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
velocity
your 2nd paragraph was in line with what i was going for. Right now he wont be sitting there but the fact that he can hit 94 know, and the fact that he is 19 with room to fill out leads me to believe he will be sitting 92-94 in a few years. If he can do that I think he can be #2 starter.
by J51 on Jul 14, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question
Why will Kelly not pitch any more this season? During the broadcast the announcers did say that he plays SS on days he doesn’t pitch, but made no mention that he was being shut down as a P the rest of the season.
As a side note, I was intrigued by Kelly’s unique contract, and wondered if the Rockies were thinking about doing something similar in order to try to entice Tyler Matzek to sign with them instead of going to U of O.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 14, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kelly
He hasn’t played short at all this year, he’s just been a pitcher. He worked out an agreement, once he hit a pre-determined innings count on the year (which he just did), he would stop pitching and switch over to shortstop, which I imagine he’ll be doing every day.
I think this is a much tougher decision than it initially seems . . .I think as a pitcher he looks safe but without truly elite upside, as a true shortstop with awesome tools and a somewhat raw bat he is risky but with massive potential. If you just view him as a shortstop he’d have to be one of the top 3-4 shortstop prospects in the game if not THE best, his upside is that high as a position player. Not to mention that he just happens to like playing shortstop much more to the life of a pitcher . . .maybe next year he ends up at DH/1B on some off-days to save his arm, develop his bat a bit more and delay the decision a bit longer?
Finally, can’t see that happening with Tyler Matzek. He wants to get paid, and for the moment he’s worth much more on the mound. Maybe he goes to Oregon, but if the ability to play some first base ends up being his deciding factor, he’s making a mistake.
by mrkupe on Jul 14, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
correction
“he just happens to prefer playing shortstop to the life of a pitcher . . .”
by mrkupe on Jul 14, 2009 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
Yeah, the guys in the booth didn’t explain his situation well. They implied that he was already playing SS while still pitching every 5th/6th day.
As for Matzek, I don’t think that you’ve read him correctly. I believe that playing in the field and batting every day is a big deal to him – just like it was to Kelly. He’s very cocky and I believe that he thinks he could also make it to the big leagues as a power-hitting 1B (apparently he was also the best hitter on his HS team that won the state championship). I also think that he’s cocky enough to believe that he will be a #1 overall in 2-3 years if he goes to Oregon and pitches to his ability. Finally, I think that he’s already focused on being a media superstar, and therefore he wants to go to a big-market team like the Yankees, Mets, BoSox, or Dodgers. For all these reasons, I seriously doubt that the Rockies can sign him for less than $8M (allowing him to make a big media splash as the 3rd highest bonus ever behind Strasburg and Prior), without getting creative and signing a contract like the one the BoSox gave Kelly.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 15, 2009 5:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree for the most part
He might be a legitimate prospect as a 1B . . .but I think he’d have to either be an absolute crusher or really flame out as a LHP prospect (read: multiple significant arm injuries) for anybody to give that route a thought.
You said it: “I also think that he’s cocky enough to believe that he will be a #1 overall in 2-3 years if he goes to Oregon and pitches to his ability.” Nowhere there did you mention playing first base . . .it’s all about the $$$.
Like I said, he might go to Oregon, but it wouldn’t make any sense for him to do it because he wants to play first base. Thinks he could be No. 1 pick in 3 years, risky but not unreasonable given his current draft position. Thinks he wants to go the a big-market time, also risky but he could consider that route as soon as next year if he wants to go to a CC rather than Oregon. Thinks people will pay him even more as a 1B, he is nuts.
by mrkupe on Jul 15, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your logic
I don’t think that it’s smart of him to even consider turning down anything over $4M in this uncertain environment (who knows what the economy and the financial state of MLB will be like next year – much less 3 years from now). However, a cocky 18 year old kid can hold some pretty strange beliefs, and I put Matzek in that category.
I think that Matzek does realize that in the end he’ll make his living as a pitcher, but I also believe that he’s not ready at this time to give up the fun and challenge of also playing in the field and hitting between starts. Of course, this is all just me practicing psychology from afar, and I’ll be the first to admit that I could easily be hilariously wrong. I’m only going off the one video interview that I saw, and the fact that he must have raised all types of red flags during pre-draft talks for so many teams in the top 11 to run away from him. To me, his drop didn’t so much speak of only excessive bonus demands as it did that teams heard the things that he was saying or relaying to them and thought, “this kids a bit nutty.”
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Jul 16, 2009 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ive always heard he sits low 90's
Found these quotes:
Fastball has excellent downward movement, and generally sits between 89 and 92 mph. Many scouts project that he’ll sit in the 92-94 mph range after he fills out.
http://soxprospects.com/players/kelly-casey.htm
On the mound, his fastball sits at 90-93 mph, and his extreme athleticism allows for plenty of projection.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8444
by alskor on Jul 15, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs











