Mets deal Church to Braves for Francoeur
by Flynn Blake on Jul 10, 2009 6:08 PM EDT
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Print(07-10) 15:24 PDT New York (AP) -- The Atlanta Braves traded Jeff Francoeur and cash to the New York Mets for Ryan Church on Friday in a swap of outfielders who had fallen out of favor with their teams. The deal came with both NL East teams below .500. The Mets have especially struggled to score lately with stars Carlos Beltran, Jose Reyes and Carlos Delgado on the disabled list.
Church is hitting .280 with two home runs and 22 RBIs. Solid at the plate and in the field, the oft-injured Church was slowed last year by two concussions.
Mets manager Jerry Manuel never seemed to warm up to him, and seemed particularly peeved after Church missed third base while running home earlier this season in a game New York eventually lost.
The 30-year-old Church is in his sixth major league season and is a career .273 hitter.
The 25-year-old Francoeur is hitting .250 with five homers and 35 RBIs. He was a favorite with Braves fans and management during his first full season in 2006, when hit 29 home runs with 103 RBIs while playing all 162 games.
Francoeur hit .293 with 19 homers and 105 RBIs in 2007, but slumped badly last year and was sent to the minors, a move that he found embarrassing.
Francoeur recently was benched for three games by Atlanta manager Bobby Cox.
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Considering how much people have bagged on Frenchy around here (and deservedly so), I find it interesting that the Mets were willing to take a chance. I daresay Francoeur better get his act together fast, or he won't last into 2010 in New York.
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I like it for both sides
Who loves orange soda?
Age
The only thing I like is that French is 5 years younger….
Otherwise I want to tear my eyes out
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Love this
Opens up Right Field for Midseason 2010 for Heyward, this is also a sign that Bobby Cox is done in Atlanta IMO because Francouer was his favorite player. I wonder how McCann is taking this as him and Francouer are best friends.
yeah By 2011 Heyward should be ready to go. a 2011 Of with Mclouth Heyward. Diaz? Jones? Johnson?
by Heyward is the next crime dog on Jul 10, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
As a HUGE Met fan
i LOVE the deal…the Mets get younger, dont lose a thing defensively and IF Hojo can fix his swing/approach to fit Citi Field he can be an upgrade offensively as well.
Eh, Francoeur probably is worse than Church defensively
And he’s significantly worse offensively.
Getting younger doesn’t matter if you also get really bad at baseball.
by thejd44 on Jul 11, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions
no way
francoeur is worse defensivlely…have you watched him play the OF? he has just as much range and a better arm…and if u read what i wrote you would see i never said at this time he is better offensively than church, i said if his approach can be fixed he will be… Ryan Church is not capable of putting together the type of years francoeur put together when he first entered the league. Not to mention he never did squat for us, he had a great month and a half for us before the concussions last year and he was playing well over his head (no pun intended) at that time
We have ways to measure defense...
that are a lot more accurate than “I’ve seen him!”
Take it from someone who watches a 150 Braves games a year… Francoeur’s defense is painfully over-rated. Just like the rest of his game. Sure occasionally he guns someone down at home, but he’ll throw the ball all over the damn field just as often.
Jeff will never get his act together because he can’t take walks. The best OBP I could ever see him posting at this point is maybe .330. And if you’re getting that out of him you have to consider yourself fortunate. Oh yeah, and all that power he showed early in his career. It’s gone.
Watching Failcoeur hit for your team is nothing short of painful.
Q: If on-base pct is so important then why don't they put it on the scoreboard? -Failcoeur
A: Because the Braves don't want to show their fans how bad you suck.
well i think this deal
was just about getting rid of each other’s trash…trust me, even right now, church isnt that much better (if at all) than francoeur. And at least from the Mets side of it we get back younger trash, with a higher upside. Just like I’ve said, sometimes all it takes is a different voice and a change of scenery
by miraclemets on Jul 11, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
hmmm
Ryan Church UZR/150 of 8.1 in RF .707 OPS
Francouer UZR/150 of -1.5 .634 OPS
Terrible deal by the mets
by Michael Cave on Jul 11, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Everybody else covered the defense.
But your point that his approach needs to be fixed is true, except Frenchy doesn’t WANT to fix his approach. He’s downright belligerent at the thought of drawing walks because “OBP isn’t on the scoreboard” (even though it usually is) so it’s not important. Seriously, aside from being bad, the guy seems to be completely daft as well.
by thejd44 on Jul 11, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Poor Ryan Church
I wonder if Church is going to have crazy nightmares being in a room with Yunel Escobar’s knee all the time.
As a Mets fan, I’m just sad that Minaya agreed to let a divisional rival sabotage his team like this.
I love the move
Church was nothing special, and clearly he wasn’t helping the club much (I was at the Kershaw beat down, wow, it was so painful I left in the 7th inning). I think Franceour has showed his potential in the past, and can reach it again. He is plus defensively, which will be key in Citi’s new cavernous right field. And, as Minaya said, he’s a pull hitter, which plays well in Citi. And he is durable, which is far away from Church’s track record. Add in the 5 years younger, and I love the trade
He’s also more expensive. And he’ll probably be asking for $6 MM in arb this winter regardless of how shitty he plays. So have fun with that.
Q: If on-base pct is so important then why don't they put it on the scoreboard? -Failcoeur
A: Because the Braves don't want to show their fans how bad you suck.
thats a
pipe dream, no way in hell he gets 6 mil in arbitration after the last few years he had
by miraclemets on Jul 11, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
You forgot a key factor, Frenchy isn’t good at baseball. Everyone is laughing at the Mets right now, this was a dumb trade. Church might have health issues, but at least he can play when he’s healthy.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
call me crazy
but i’ll take the guy who is younger, with a higher upside, and who is backed in a corner and should now realize that his appraoch needs to change (frenchy) over an older, less durable, platoon player who has already reached his peak (church)…and if frenchy cant turn it around, it only cost us a platoon player who wasnt a big part of our present and wouldnt have been a big part of our future…i’ll take that gamble any day of the week and twice on sunday’s…now if we gave up a f. martinez, or a flores, or a holt, i would have a problem with this deal, but we gave up NOTHING…
What upside?
Why does he have upside? That’s the token line thrown around to defend this trade, but he doesn’t have any upside unless you’re really dreaming. We have over 2500 PA of evidence that shows that Francoeur isn’t good. Francoeur is a negative value. He costs the team when he plays. He is a detriment to winning. Math.
What you gave up is any chance at winning the division, and if you play him regularly next year he’s going to be a serious obstacle to contention, even with the likely best top 4 group in baseball. This trade made everyone question whether the Betancourt trade was the stupidest of the year. It’s that bad.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
Fuck Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
+1
I don’t see what upside he has. Francoeur is below replacement. He just so happens to occasionally throw a guy out or hit a homer, so people think he’s good because he makes it onto Baseball Tonight.
by thejd44 on Jul 11, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
what upside?
i call low to mid 20’s in hr’s and 100 rbi’s upside…i dont know about you…sure he has been down right bad for the last 2 years but church sucks and has never come close to any of those numbers…and IF frenchy decides to fix his approach this is a steal for the mets
HR’s and RBI’s are really, really poor ways to judge a player.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
Fuck Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
im not saying its the only thing that matters
im saying it is more upside than ryan church has…and thats what the mets need…its a gamble, but imo a good one
Upside is a tricky thing, the likelihood of reaching it is an important factor. The most likely (very much most likely) thing to happen is they are both the same player they have been. Making Church a .270/.340/.440 type guy, and Francoeur a .250/.300/.360 type. And Church’s defense is better. This is a bad trade. You can hope on Frenchy suddenly turning a corner, but those are pretty terrible odds.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
Fuck Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Francoeur was very good
At 21, he showed a ton of power even in the majors. Since then, his K rate has substantially improved, but unfortunately his power has disappeared. If his power continues to leave, then you’re right. If it returns, he could be very good again
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
by OldProspects on Jul 12, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
what your forgetting with your "math"
is the human element involved…numbers cant tell the whole story…this kid is backed into a corner now. He was a home grown Atlanta kid playing for the Braves, on the cover of SI titled “The Natural” living the life…Pitchers adjusted to him and now it is now or never for him to be willing to make the adjustment back…He has to realize if he refuses to make that adjustment, his career may very well be over or he will be sittiing on the bench for the rest of his career
Numbers tell the story in that he isn’t good at baseball currently. It takes some frightening wishcasting to think he will suddenly change that just because he got traded. If he does, I’ll be happy for him, but it’s really, really, really unlikely.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
Fuck Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
upside?
once upon a time, a 21-yo named jeff francoeur hit 300/336/549 in his first exposure at the major league level. he also showed decent range and racked up a ton of OF assists. it was enough to get him 3rd place in the RoY voting despite the fact that it was only 70 games.
as we all know, he’s spent most of the past four years sucking. but of course he has upside. he’s still a gifted physical specimen who just needs to get his head on straight. 25 is not too old for that to happen. i’m not saying that it’s likely, but it’s definitely possible. how else do you define upside?
Once upon a time…yes, once upon a time. Not now. 2500 AB’s later, he’s pretty clearly garbage for an MLB player. Maybe you’re right though, we should cling to those 250 AB’s from 4 years ago.
Age relative to league isn’t everything.
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
Fuck Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
Once upon a time, Bobby Crosby hit 21 homers and won ROY
As an A’s fan, I could tell you all about the dangers of wishcasting on “once upon a time”…
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Jul 12, 2009 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Once upon a time
Francouer was a much better athlete then. He is bigger and slower in all facets of the game now. That guy who tore up the league at 21 is gone.
seems reasonable
both guys definitely fall into the “could use a change of scenery” category.
Church
With the way some people are talking, it’s like the Mets moved David Wright. Church is nothing special. He’s 30-31 years old and is a platoon outfielder at best. Granted, Francoeur has done next-to-nothing to get excited about lately, but he’s 5 years younger and was widely considered an elite-level prospect just four years ago. He needed to get out of Atlanta just like Church needed to get out of NY.
Maybe Francoeur is nothing more than Joe Borchard II, but his upside far eclipses that of Church. I’m no Minaya fan, but this was a very smart gamble.
I'll 2nd it
at his best, Ryan Church was a platoon type guy. At his worst, he was a bench guy. You can find those guys at the deadline if you need to, without giving up an arm and a leg. Ideally, you’d have that type of guy in the system to save you the bucks. It’s a good gamble.
I will also say
though, that it makes sense for the Braves, who had soured on Frenchy, and needed someone to produce. I’ll take my chances on Church being more productive than Frenchy for the rest of this year.
It's a great trade for the Braves because they no longer will feel obligated to play Frenchy
He’s been among the worst players in the league for a year and a half now and below average since his face appeared on that magazine. To replace him with a platoon player is a huge boon.
Francoeur needs to keep the goddamn bat on his shoulder
or ill straight up slug him.
According to Fangraphs's metrics, Francoeur is almost 30 runs below average for his career
and, making things (a lot) worse, most of that is recently.
Church is a decent platoon outfielder, and I really don’t understand why anyone would give him up for roster filler like Francoeur.
It’s not very common that you get two trades in the same day which flat-out make no sense for one of the teams involved…
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Jul 11, 2009 2:35 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
QFT
It’s not very common that you get two trades in the same day which flat-out make no sense for one of the teams involved…
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
Paul, I need you in my life.
Is that creepy?
by thejd44 on Jul 11, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, kind of
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
Oh, well, in that case
I rather enjoy your posts on blogs and would like to continue reading them.
Better?
by thejd44 on Jul 12, 2009 3:54 AM EDT up reply actions
For example
Somebody needs to be ranting on AN about how much of an idiot Geren is for putting Davis in right and Hairston in center when Davis is 2 effing wins better (over 150 games) in center field.
And Geren really needs to be beaten half to death for batting Cabrera second. He makes baseball not fun.
I’m too lazy to give this rant the juice it needs.
by thejd44 on Jul 12, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure I have "the juice" either...
That stuff is kind of penny-ante (especially the batting order thing, and especially on an offense as atrocious as the A’s offense). Even the defense thing probably isn’t more than 1 win a year difference.
I don’t know what it is about managing, but something about it seems to just infect otherwise intelligent people with this virus of moronhood. I mean, our alternative was Ron Washington, who recently decided it would be a great idea to leave a left-handed pitcher in to pitch to Franklin Gutierrez in the 8th inning of a one-run game. Even Joe Maddon, who typically does some fairly innovative things, managed the World Series like a kangaroo with a major brain injury.
I think teams should hire a “tactics coach” to handle things like steals, bunts, pitching changes, lineups, etc. Hell, you could even have two— one for offense, one for defense. I doubt it’d be that expensive— $40K or so each would land you a couple of bright-eyed youngsters (like, to take an entirely coincidental example, me) who might add a win a season or so. That’s pretty cheap compared to $4M on the free agent market.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
The lineup stuff is something I usually avoid
I don’t care if Holliday bats third or fourth or fifth. I don’t care that Adam Kennedy bats first, even if he might not be ideal.
But batting a guy who has been a win below replacement – one of the 10 worst wOBAs in baseball – in the top 2 spots would be Holliday batting ninth. It’s such an egregious error that it has to be pointed out.
I agree that most of the quibbles are small. But there’s an effing shitload of them. Those add up. And when you have a pretty blah team anyway, having a manager who seems to go out of his way to lose MORE games doesn’t help. I can accept bad players being bad. I can’t accept blatant stupidity.
Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled thread.
by thejd44 on Jul 12, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Too Soon
Is it too soon to start a Free Jason Heyward campaign?
lol yes
I just got on twitter.Follow me at http://twitter.com/JDSussman
I'll be trying to post lines and analysis as much as possible.
Remember: baseball guys... baseball...
That would be really silly
“Hm, we just got rid of a superficially talented outfielder who ended up with a terrible hitting approach who was brought up at the age of 21. Who should we replace him with?”
“I know, a superficially talented outfielder who’s 19!”
Yeah, no.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
You think Heyward is superficially talented? Did you mean that in a current sense (as in, he’s not currently ready) or in a absolute sense?
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
Fuck Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
It means:
“We think this guy is talented, but don’t have enough evidence to really be sure of it yet.”
Not a diss to Heyward; he’s just not at a high enough level yet to where firm judgments can be made.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
I see
Proud father of Juan Carlos Perez. Think Albert Pujols at second.
Fuck Juan Uribe. Dios es grande.
This could be a pre-trade
I don’t know who the Mets could get for Francoeur…
Straight talk
Just to cut through the rather pronounced bias exhibited towards towards one or the other teams in this deal . . .let’s just make it clear what this trade was about. It wasn’t about the Mets fleecing the Braves for a talented youngster . . .Francoeur’s numbers have ranged from passable to awful over the last several years. Perhaps he improves, but there’s should really be no doubt that at the present, platoon or not, a healthy Ryan Church is a better contributor to a team trying to win ballgames.
It’s a simple trade of two guys who had lost favor, one with more upside, one with a higher floor of return.
Yup
Both guys are likely to be non-tendered in the end, unless they show improvement.
Church is the better player right now, but he really hasn’t had the same production either in the year since the concussions. Frenchy has been awful for a year and a half, never really was that good to begin with (his “good” seasons were not better than Ryan Church’s) but is only 25, and seems to have had at least a bit of bad luck on balls in play over the last season and a half. And it’s foolish to think he can never get his power back, considering power tends to peak around 28.
???
" (his "good" seasons were not better than Ryan Church’s) "
how can you possibly say that? Ryan Church has never had more than 15hr and 70rbi’s in a season and has never walked more than 49 times in a year
Frenchy has had as many as 29 hr’s and 105 rbi’s…
Your mistake is assuming that raw HR/RBI numbers have something to do with being good
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
no its not
look at all the other numbers as well…im not even going to count church’s slugging % and obp in ‘06 when he only got 196 ab’s…all the othe numbers are fairly equal except for what the mets want, power potential…look, neither of these guys are on base machines, neither walk a lot, and im not saying that frenchy is the answer to our problems, cause certainly he isnt…what i am saying is that it is a great gamble for the Mets
The numbers?
Ryan Church WAR
2005 1.9
2006 1.9
2007 2.9
2008 1.6
2009 0.4
Total for the past 4 1/2 years: 8.7
Jeff Francoeur WAR
2005 3.0
2006 1.0
2007 3.6
2008 -1.3
2009 -0.6
Total for the past 4 1/2 years: 5.7
by thejd44 on Jul 11, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
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