SS who will actually be SS....
by slickterp on Jun 17, 2009 9:38 PM EDT
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Any thoughts on decent SS prospects that will likely remain SS long term? Recently I have drafted guys like Sean Rodriguez and Manny Burriss when they were SS, and now they flop to 2B, leaving me shorted at SS in the future. Thoughts? How about guys like Triunfel, or Cardenas (I know the A's just started toying with him at 3B)? Any good indicators on how one can predict who will stay and who will move?
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Cardenas
He’s only played 8 games at SS this year. He has been playing primarily at 2nd, and I assume that they’re moving him to third becasue of the way Weeks is hitting (and because they don’t have anyone else to play third).
Triunfel
has absolutely no shot of staying at SS. That ship sailed a long time ago, nevermind the serious injury this year.
Hard to judge
There are a lot of guys with the tools to be good shortstops, but for whatever reason, they can never get it together mentally. On the other hand, there are plenty of guys who don’t have the traditional physical tools needed to man SS, but they can make it work for whatever reason.
Three guys in the Cubs’ organization could fit what you’re asking for…
1) Starlin Castro – Hitting .293/.327/.376 as a 19 year old in the Florida State League. Has the physical tools to stick at SS, but needs to cut down the errors.
2) Ryan Flaherty – Hitting .239/.315/.421 in the Midwest League, but has been playing a surprisingly decent SS. It’s strange, since he was known for his bat and not his glove at Vandy. I still think he’ll have to move, but hey, who knows?
3) Hak-Ju Lee – Started the season rehabbing from Tommy John Surgery, going to Boise for short season ball. Has all of the physical tools to be a very good defensive SS and a speedy leadoff type of guy with some pop, but needs to show production first.
We’ll see what happens with all three. I feel best about Castro at this point since he’s holding his own at the plate in the FSL and has more growing to do, but who knows what will happen to all three in the next few seasons?
Reben Tejada
On the mets. He is more than holding his own in the Eastern League (AA) as a teenager. Seems like he might be one of those guys who is a better player in real life than he is in fantasy.
Yes
But he’s probably going to end up playing second on the Mets, unless he’s moved. Considering that the Mets are probably going to have to eat Castillo’s contract during the life of the deal, I doubt they deal from second base depth (even with Havens on the table).
Good Point
That Jose Reyes guy is pretty good. Of course they have a lot of holes right now, and he could always be traded.
Dee Gordon
In Low A for the Dodgers is looking pretty interesting so far. He has committed more than his share of errors but it sounds like he has all the tools, just needs more experience to get consistent with the fielding.
Agreed
He was compared to Jimmy Rollins by BA and his speed off the charts. You have to like his bloodlines with Tom “Flash” Gordon as his father.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Jun 18, 2009 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions
hmm...i may be missing something...
but i dont necessarily know how Flash’s killer curveball benefits his SS son in any way
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jun 18, 2009 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Bloodlines
Guys who have family in baseball tend to benefit from the experience and opportunities provided to them by their families. John Sickels often admits that he likes bloodlines when looking at prospects.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Jun 18, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
And, maybe more important, I think those guys get a little more from organizations
An extra chance, a few more at bats/innings, etc. If it’s out of respect to the bloodline or the belief that more time will bring out the talent that must be there, I don’t know, but a guy definitely stays a prospect longer based on name. Doesn’t mean that it’s always warranted though.
by thejd44 on Jun 18, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
To add to this
Sean Burroughs was a prospect for like 3 years after he proved to be not very good at baseball, and I don’t think he would’ve gotten so many chance if not for being a Burroughs.
by thejd44 on Jun 18, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Typically the have better makeup
My understanding is that kids of baseball players (or possibly even pro athletes in general) are often considered to have better makeup due to having grown up around the game and thus not being awed by everything.
Is there any truth to this, though?
I can’t help but notice that there are an awful lot of outstanding players whose parents did not play major league baseball. There are a few whose parents did, but is there any evidence that this actually matters?
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
by OldProspects on Jun 19, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It's really impossible to know...
but what’s important is that the PERCEPTION is there. Is there a difference between “having” positive intangible qualities and being perceived to “have” them?
AH
I was going to point out Devaris Gordon as a sleeper for the future for his tools and bloodlines but it looks like hes been talked about.
For how little he has played organized baseball in the past, he is more than holding his own in professional baseball right now.
brandon crawford
for the Giants seems to be solid defensively and holding his own at the plate. He’s in AA right now and is merely waiting for Renteria to finally fully disintegrate.
by The Gottfather on Jun 17, 2009 11:34 PM EDT reply actions
Alcides Escobar
I will toss a wager he can stay at SS
tim beckham
don’t forget about him, the #1 ss prospect in minors
by jarjets89 on Jun 18, 2009 12:28 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Just want to point out again:
What the hell with Zobrist and Bartlett? Where in the world did this power come from?
by Lunkwill Fook on Jun 18, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
zobrist
claims to be under tutelage of some hitting instructor. bartlett I don’t know. mayb Zobrist’s instructor is named Mr. Clear.
yes
That’s where I read it. neyer linked to it in April. Here:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/sweetspot/0-1-116/Friday-Filberts.html
That article also mentions Zobrist weight-training. But really, my Clear line was justa toss off, what with all the Ibanez stuff. I was really just trying to say i had heard it was a hitting instructor, and then make I guess a poor joke, but really just a haha, everyone gets suspected when they get hot line. I don’t have any reason to think he is on steroids.
I kinda like the hitting instructor thing. reminds me of the episode where George Costanza is explaining the physics of hitting to Jeter and bernie Williams.
another blogger throwing out steroid allegations
Watch out for Ibanez. He’ll get you.
Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.
C'Mon man..
Given the fact that I KNOW Ben, graduated with his brother from high school, I can tell you he is a devout Christian. His morals and beliefs would never allow him to do such a thing.
It was just a tossed off line
ease up guys. I usually put a smiley face after a line like that but it gets annoying. I had read the hitting instructor thing on something neyer linked to a a month or so ago. And I actually tend to believe that he has just improved. Apologies for the tossed off line.
I am sure he is a wonderful guy, and I even had him on my fabtasy team roster last year. Wish i had him this year.
zobrist
to me, there are only a handful of SSs I’d rather have than him right now. switch-hitting SS with an OPS over 1? yes, please.
i believe the improvement is here to stay as well.
by son.of.sourman on Jun 19, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
His OPS will most likely settle, but his bat is very much legit.
His defense at SS is not. He’s awful. He just isn’t a big league SS for any team who likes their pitching staff. A very solid 2B, but he cannot play SS.
Tools Whore
definitely
Devout Christians like Zobrist and Pettitte would never even THINK about breaking the rules
Brignac probably won't be at SS in the majors though
Unless Bartlett gets traded, he’s blocked there.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Trade bait?
Since Brignac’s value is higher at SS, I think they may look at trading him.
They can probably use him at 2B
Aybar doesn’t seem all that competent there, and the team seems to like Zobrist better in the OF (that is, if he’s not a flash in the pan).
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
E-6
huge hole in his glove, even during basic BP fielding drills.
by SouthAtlanticLeagueFan on Jun 18, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
We'll see if it improves
Jeter had 50+ errors in low-A. Brignac had 40+ and by most accounts is a plus defender now. On the other hand, some like Upton never get over the errors and need to move.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Beckham that is, don’t know how good of a fielder Brignac is
by SouthAtlanticLeagueFan on Jun 18, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Justin Jackson
Is supposed to be an excellent defender and could possibly make it to the majors based on that solely. If his bat does not come around his MLB floor is John McDonald with untapped power and more Ks. If he develops, I see Brandon Phillips at short.
Another more polished prep Jays SS, is Tyler Pastornicky. He does not have the same offensive cieling as Jackson has in my opinion, but he should stick at short.
by tdot mariner fan on Jun 18, 2009 1:27 AM EDT reply actions
some others
Zach Cozart
Dusty Coleman
Juan Diaz
Ehire Adrianza
Pete Kozma
Oscar Tejeda
Coleman
From that list I really think COleman has the best shot at staying at SS. The A’s really haven’t had anyone else there for a while and he is proving to be a pretty solid prospect.
Kozma may make it in STL as they have also always struggled at SS.
Coleman
From all accounts Coleman has the hands and the range to be an above average defensive SS. The errors are not much to be concerned about at this level yet.
There's some evidence that being credited with errors at low-minors levels
is actually a positive indicator for defense. See, eg, Elvis Andrus.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
more
Chase D’Arnaud (A – PIT)
Ian Desmond (AA – WAS)
Danny Espinosa (A+ – WAS)
Ivan DeJesus (AA – LAD)
Not positive on Ivan’s D, but everyone else can stick there without much to project.
http://rswanzey.blogspot.com
Where does everyone think that Wilmer Flores will end up?
I’m hoping he would stay at SS, but I’m afraid CF/RF or 3b would the places he could end up.
"When Justin Upton faces Lincecum, I think Christ might appear in the heavens, and the world will end." -JakeFree
I've heard LF/1B
The Mets are pretty set at CF, 3B, SS… and FMart will be establishing himself in RF prior to Flores’ arrival. Given that his issues are more range than arm, I’m guessing he ends up in LF rather than 2B.
CF
Just as an aside, Beltran’s contract expires after 2011, so it is conceivable that the Mets will be looking for a CF in 2012 (I’m not suggesting Flores would be the answer, either).
"Dying is no big deal. The least of us will manage that. Living is the trick." - Red Smith
F-Mart = LF? Flores = RF
I thought F-Mart was a little light in the arm department, and projected for LF rather than RF. Flores could end up in RF because he has the arm for SS or 3B.
Fernando
From what I’ve seen, his arm is actually pretty strong, but it’s a limited sample size. But I don’t think it’s as strong as Wilmer’s.
More that FMart will be established
If FMart has the arm for RF, and has been playing it for a couple of years in the majors, I don’t necessarily see the Mets moving him to Left for “some unproven kid with a better arm”. It might not be the optimal configuration, but it’s also been established that the defensive difference between LF and RF isn’t worth all that much except at the extremes of the spectrum
Indicators...
The original poster asked for indicators. It’s really all about the scouting reports, but if you’re watching players yourself, lateral range and loose arm motion are the two biggest indicators. SS needs to cover the most ground, and they have to make throws from all sorts of different angles to shave precious milliseconds off of their time to first base. If you see a guy who has great reflexes but not a very good first step to either his left or right, chances are he’s a third baseman. If you see someone who really needs to plant his feet and square up his throw, he’s probably a second baseman.
any from this SS group ?
lillibridge
hu
pennington
donald
plouffe
valaika
tyler greene
burris
hm
Hu is an elite defender, Plouffe is god awful.
Lillibridge and Pennington I believe are both good (not pos. on Lillibridge) but they’re basically UT guys…you don’t want them starting.
Donald I think I remember being average. You’d have to ask someone else on that.
The others I am not familiar enough with to say anything without looking them up on BA, and I’m way too lazy to be doing that right now.
http://rswanzey.blogspot.com
Hu for sure
But if you’re thinking fantasy, I doubt any of them makes much of an impact.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
yeah, exactly
If you’re doing a sim league like DMB, OOTP, etc., then yeah, depending on how deep rosters/# of teams are, these guys might be options to consider as fringe-starter types. If a Hu or someone gets an excellent defensive rating, they’re probably a quality regular and maybe more depending on the bat.
If we’re talking standard 5×5 or regular fantasy, none of those players should ever sniff your roster unless your teams run real deep.
http://rswanzey.blogspot.com
Tyler Greene is a SS
The bat is questionable though.
college SS drafted in recent yrs
darwin barney
ryan flaherty
brian friday
josh horton
Jordy Mercer
Danny Espinosa
Zack Cozart
Danny Worth
Brandon Hicks
wow, thanks everyone!
A truly solid and wide range of answers and options! Just what I needed. I am in a SIM league, so defense certainly counts. I now have ALOT of guys to look at coming up. We carry 60 man rosters, and have a fall draft (all those who came up, played enough to qualify, and are not on rosters already), a Rule V, and a spring draft (draftees who sign ML contracts, foreign signees, and anyone who played AT ALL the previous year, but didn’t play enough to qualify for the fall draft).
Jiovanni Meir
some mixed reviews, but a 1st round pick this year, where most people think he’ll make it as a SS. bat might be somewhat questionable, but he has some upside.
by auclairkeithbc on Jun 18, 2009 11:34 PM EDT reply actions
From all accounts there are as few questions about his glove as there can be for an 18 year old.
It’s spectacular. His bat is another story. There is ability there, but like you said, questions about how he’ll adjust to the pro game.
Tools Whore
I worry about those...
“great glove if he can just hit enough” players at SS. John did a series or articles earlier this year about SSs and where they came from, and I noticed a trend with the glove-first shortstops… most of them never even became a regular at the major leagues.
Adam Dunn: Proof that even sabermetrics doesn't have it right.
Very true, although defense is now being understood much better, that will help some of these guys.
Adam Everett is a putrid hitter, but his defense is so amazing that he’s still and valuable player and very worthy of a starting spot. Now if you can’t hit at all, you have to be spectacular defensively, but Meirs scouting reports are fantastic.
Tools Whore
Jeff Bianchi
just promoted to AA. and he’s got as clear of path as anyone if he produces!
baseball rules.
pennington for 2010
considering cabrera/crosby have been a waste of 9mill in 09 and are FA’s, they will be looking for a SS.
pennington has qualities of a plus defender, efficient base runner, and solid OBP ability. Unfortunately not much power, but decent hitter. It wouldnt be horrible to put him in the 9th spot everyday. Green (if signed) and Coleman are several yrs away, so pennington has a shot. I’d compare him to a ryan theriot type player or maybe the non 09 version of bartlett. I also like gregorio petit, but he rarely gets any chances to play.
Pennington or Petit might be the A's starting SS in 2010
But that won’t change the fact that they suck.
Don't believe in yourself.
Believe in Me who believes in You.
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