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Tony Sanchez and Trading Draft Picks

As I've read the various reactions to Pittsburgh taking Tony Sanchez, even since it was just a rumor, there are two things that stand out: 1) People think it was an over-draft, likely due to signability, and that he would have been available ten to fifteen picks later, and 2) The Pirates, even if signability helped, seemed to fall in love with the kid. With that said, I think this is another angle to the argument in favor of allowing the trading of draft picks.

If the guy you really want in your organization isn't a good value where you're picking, you should be able to trade down, just like the Browns did repeatedly in this year's NFL draft. How many teams would have loved to pick fourth to guarantee they could get, say, Zack Wheeler? The Pirates probably could have picked up an extra pick somewhere in the first few rounds. It works the other way, too. If the A's had gotten wind that the Astros wanted Castro and not Smoak last year, you don't think they would have found a way to swap picks with Houston?

I think people are so paranoid about the Yankees, etc., monopolizing the high-end talent that they've denied teams the right to value the actual picks.

I know I'm not breaking new ground or anything here, but I'd love to see some intelligent debate about the trading of draft picks. Thoughts?

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Trading of draft picks

I think could only happen when combined with
a) a salary cap like in every other sport

or

b) a hard slot system like in the NBA

Otherwise, you have every agent dictating where their player goes. If Strasburg wants to go to San Diego Boras just makes it happen. If Harper wants to go to the Yankees, Boras just tells every team that he wants $100 million, and forces a trade to the Yankees.

by Galt on Jun 10, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions  

That's pretty much my thoughts...

…the system is proving itself to be a failure, and in many ways, its just a more structured free agency period, where draft position is probably less than half the battle when it comes to getting the top talent.

If MLB does change the system, the international free agency process will need to be changed, too. I’m not sure what the pros or cons of making the Rule IV draft for all players, national or international, or if it’d be better to have like two separate drafts.

by jseiner on Jun 10, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

B

There definitely needs to be something like the whole NBA system in place honestly. Hard slot on draft spots, make the kids declare for the draft(HS senior or college juniors) and lose eligibility if they do so, teams retain their rights(no Indy ball to get re-drafted). You can freely trade draft picks at that point without much problem at all.

RIP Nick Adenhart

by gatling on Jun 10, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Open the system up

No draft— players sign with whom ever they want. No restrictions.

Remember: baseball guys... baseball...

by JD Sussman on Jun 10, 2009 5:07 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

more money in the pockets of the players

less in the owners— free market baby

Remember: baseball guys... baseball...

by JD Sussman on Jun 10, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doesn't Make Sense

I’m a big fan of free market economics, but it doesn’t make sense in sports leagues. The ultimate goal of the Yankees, Red Sox, and Dodgers isn’t to put the rest of the league out of business. In order to be profitable, the league needs some level of parity to keep all (or at least most) of the teams financially healthy. That occurs best when every team has a winning season now and again. Going to a complete free market system would just mean that all of the best prospects would end up on the teams with the deepest pockets. Which would be good for the very best prospects. But not so good for the league. And when the league ultimately folded, it would be bad for all of the players…

by knightgalt on Jun 10, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Athletes

In the end, these players are all athletes and the reason why they play baseball is because of their god given ability to do so.

If this were the case, wouldn’t the Yankees, Mets, Dodgers, Red Sox have signed Yona? Wouldn’t one of those teams have signed Miguel Cabrera? Wouldn’t they be the front runner for Sano?

There is more to an open system than money. Players and teams build relationships. Players want to play. Do you really think that Steven Strasbourg would want to be the 7th starter on the Yankees or Sox? Who is to say he wouldn’t go to San Diego? Stay close to home and be at the team where his coach became a HoFer?

The idea of opening the draft up isn’t to help big market teams. Its to help the players. In an open system teams get to compete for players, thus driving the price of these players up. Not to mention that a draft where an employer gets sole rights to an employee is borderline illegal, or it should be.

Could you image graduation HS, College, or Graduate School and getting a phone call from your new employer. Hi, we need you to move across the country. Oh and your contract, where this is about what we have to pay you. Oh and lastly, without signing this contract you are going to delay obtaining your dreams. Thanks, have a nice day.

Sure, players can play chicken with teams. I will go to Indy Ball, I will go back to school! But who gains from that? The player has demands, if one team doesn’t feel they are worth it, another might. And if no one feels they are worth it, obviously they need a reality check.

Players need to be able to negotiate for their future. I don’t really understand how we have two systems. One where the players have all of the leverage (International signings) and one where they have little at all (outside of fear mongering about going else where).

One open system without restrictions. No age limit, no staying in college for X many of years before your 21st birthday. If you want to sign a deal, go for it.

Maybe Bryce Harper gets picked up by my Mets, or the more local Dodgers. But we already see players using fear to move down towards teams with more money. And if the Nationals can sign Strasburg today, why couldn’t they sign him in an open system?

Remember: baseball guys... baseball...

by JD Sussman on Jun 11, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

International signings

If this were the case, wouldn’t the Yankees, Mets, Dodgers, Red Sox have signed Yona? Wouldn’t one of those teams have signed Miguel Cabrera? Wouldn’t they be the front runner for Sano?

There are a lot of factors at work that make international signings different from what we’d see if American teenagers were free agents. Signing at sixteen, age scandals, players trained for showcases not games, teams can develop their own guys at academies, corruption, etc.

Just because the Yankees don’t flood one market with money (and they are still consistently one of top spenders down there, anyway), doesn’t mean they would do the same in a much safer market.

by aCone419 on Jun 11, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dam this got deleted the first time

In a safer market, teams who have less disposable income will be more likely to spend. The Yankees already have more resources, so the risk is less for them.

Take a look at the spending last year.


1 P Michel Ynoa A’sDominican Republic $4.25M
2 OF Rafael Rodriguez Giants Dominican Republic $2.55M
3 OF Yorman Rodriguez Reds Venezuela $2.5M
4 P Adys Portillo Padres Venezuela $2.0M
5 OF Luis Domoromo Padres Venezuela $1.25M
6t 3B Roberto De La Cruz Cardinals Dominican Republic $1.1M
6t OF Julio Morban Mariners Dominican Republic $1.1M
8 SS Alvaro Aristy Padres Dominican Republic $1.0M
9 SS Gian Carlos Arias Yankees Dominican Republic $950,000
10 OF Ramon Flores Yankees Venezuela $775,000

This doesn’t have many huge payrool teams. In fact, I would argue that the low income teams have taken more of a risk here on the open international market. Lets look at the all time spending list. Its a fair assumption that the more money a team has, the more times they can flex their muscles to get their guy.


1 P Michel Ynoa ‘08 A’s Dominican Republic $4.25M
2 OF Rafael Rodriguez ‘08 Giants Dominican Republic $2.55M
3 OF Yorman Rodriguez ’08 Reds Venezuela $2.5M
4 OF Wily Mo Pena ’99 Yankees Dominican Republic $2.44M
5 SS Joel Guzman ’01 Dodgers Dominican Republic $2.255M
6 P Byung-Hyun Kim ’99 D’Backs South Korea $2.25M
7 P Chin-Hui Tsao ’99 Rockies Taiwan $2.2M
8 3B Angel Villalona ’06 Giants Dominican Republic $2.1M
9t OF Juan Duran ’08 Reds Dominican Republic $2.0M
9t P Adys Portillo ’08 Padres Venezuela $2.0M

Again, the big markets aren’t that well represented. All we have are the Dodgers and Yankees (and Giants?).

I really think that this would be no different that real life. Every negotiation has their own quirks outside of money.

Remember: baseball guys... baseball...

by JD Sussman on Jun 11, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

In a safer market, teams who have less disposable income will be more likely to spend. The Yankees already have more resources, so the risk is less for them.

Disagree. Small market teams have the incentive to take bigger risks. Playing it safe when you are at a severe resource disadvantage makes little sense. The recent emphasis on Latin America by clubs like Oakland, San Deigo, and Cincinnati illustrates this.

Focusing on “record bonuses” misses the point. Not all foreign imports are as risky as 16 year olds with no formal training who might be 20. Big market teams have shown no hesitation flexing their muscles on the “safer” bets. Its not a coincidence which teams consistently get the biggest names from overseas, who end up with MLB contracts instead of bonuses:

Matsuzaka (Boston) , Irabu (NYY), Contreras (NYY) , K. Matsui (NYM), H. Matsui (NYY), Soriano (NYY), Fukudome (CHC), Ichiro (SEA), Johjima (SEA), Kaz Sazaki (SEA), Kuroda (LAD), Nomo (LAD), Igawa (NYY).

All those teams have got a bunch of money and they use it to get the elite international free agents. Now other teams get involved now and again (Danys Baez in Cleveland for example; Atlanta with Kawakami), but the big players are clear. The best players in the draft are much more akin to these type of players than Rafael Rodriguez.

by aCone419 on Jun 11, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Off Topic But....

Will Bryce Harper be the #1 overall pick NEXT year?

his parents are trying to find a way for him to be a draft eligable High School Jr.
right?

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jun 11, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

…unless the Nats (or whoever has the #1 pick) simply don’t have the funds or he gets a nasty injury.

by jfish26101 on Jun 17, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

If this were the case, wouldn’t the Yankees, Mets, Dodgers, Red Sox have signed Yona? Wouldn’t one of those teams have signed Miguel Cabrera? Wouldn’t they be the front runner for Sano?

International signing is different. Loyalty to your runner is the key here.

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by 306008 on Jun 18, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Said by a fan...

of one of the teams most willing to overpay for players.

Adam Dunn: Proof that even sabermetrics doesn't have it right.

by Boxkutter on Jun 11, 2009 4:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mets overpay for players recently?

Sorry I must of missed that. Other than the stupidity of Castillo and Oliver Perez, Minya has been pretty decent with his signings. The core of this though is Latin America and the Draft neither of which the Mets have been huge spenders or an over slot organization.

Remember: baseball guys... baseball...

by JD Sussman on Jun 11, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Those were recent signings.

by jfish26101 on Jun 11, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Leave it as is

Why fix it if it isn’t broken? There is no draft like the MLB draft. Football is 7 rounds, basketball is 2 and hockey is, well…who cares, it’s hockey.

We’re talking about 50 rounds here. It’s a dynamic that no other league has to deal with. Also, you’re talking about such an insane range of ability levels. There are way too many question marks to make a hard slot system.

I’m all for a salary cap, but at the same token it’s not all that essential. Scouting is the name of the game. Leaving the draft the way it is actually gives the smarter/better scouting organizations a leg up. Think about what happens to the Nats if they do commit $50 million to Strasburg and he fizzles out. They’re screwed for a while.

I personally feel that if Strasburg gets anymore than $15 mil the Nats are making a mistake. Tell him to screw and get yourself a nice compensation pick in return if he’s asking for too much. They have a young pitching staff with potential. Keep your $50 mil or go sign Ben Sheets for 3 years. At least you know what you’re getting. 140 innings a season, but 140 innings of quality pitching.

If you think it needs to be changed, let us know why. For every Joe Justin Upton there’s a Matt Bush. Houston got reamed last year for taking Jason Castro. Looks like they were right and we were wrong.

by rutgersjpm on Jun 10, 2009 6:55 PM EDT reply actions  

but is is broken...

Pittsburgh and Baltimore should have drafted Matzek and Turner or Purke but they drafted whom they drafted because of fear of the signing bonus. A slotting system will allow them to sign the BPA. I don’t care if the players get more money or the owners because will are just fans, we don’t win anything if Matt Purke or Matt Wieters or Porcello get 7 million or 2.5 million. We should only care about our team getting the BPA A slotting system will allow every team a chance to be competitive.

by LCT on Jun 10, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please don't take offense to this anyone, but

…how do we know who each team should draft. We’re prospecting. No science involved, just guess work. No one knows what’s going to happen before these guys make it to the bigs. Maybe Pitts mentality was that their pitchers aren’t developing as well as they would like because they’re missing an intelligent catcher in the system.

Sure, signing bonus play into the decision making process, but I read in many places that after Strasburg and Ackley the entire first round was a crap shoot. So why not go with the cheap, sure thing instead of the high school arm that’s going to cost you millions that may not give you anything.

I like things the way they are. It makes things a little more exciting.

by rutgersjpm on Jun 10, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

In one sense, the first round (after Strasburg and Ackley) was a crapshoot; but there were certainly tiers of players who were generally grouped together. I cannot believe that Pittsburgh honestly thought Sanchez had a higher upside than a good 15 – 20 players that were available; the only reasonable explanation for their choice that I can find is that they felt economic pressure to select someone that (1) they believed was very likely to sign and (2) that was someone they could afford to sign.

I am not a Pirate fan nor an Oriole fan, but I was saddened by their picks. The whole purpose of the amateur draft is to distribute talent to the teams that (we assume) didn’t have much talent the previous year. Once again, that goal was not achieved.

Getting back to the original question, I think I’d like to see draft picks available for trade; but I agree there would have to be some kind of slotting system and perhaps a salary cap. My fear is that organizations like Pittsburgh are not just short-sighted and cash-strapped – I fear they aren’t smart enough to handle a newer flexible system that would allow the temptation of trading draft picks away.

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by Lyle on Jun 14, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Neil Huntington

Actually had a pretty smart plan(atleast I think it was). He went cheap on Sanchez and drafted abunch of high upside highschool pitchers in the later rounds. He drafted Sanchez knowing, and liking, what kind of player he will be. There was definetly better potential talent available but they took a solid player who signed for slot allowing them to spend bigger in later rounds on guys who dropped because of signability. I like it.

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by gorillakilla34 on Jun 14, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

But he didn't went cheap

He pay slightly over slot. He didn’t save any money to throw to the other picks or the Intl’ Market

by LCT on Jun 15, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Compared to the players

that were considered to be candidates to go at #4, the Pirates likely saved quite a bit of money. Matzek is on record wanting record money for a HS pitcher, that means more than Porcello’s $7.3M bonus. So they’d save roughly $5M with Sanchez right there.

RIP Nick Adenhart

by gatling on Jun 15, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

The slots are incredibly stupid- an arbitrary bonus recommendation determined by the Office of the Commissioner. What matters is that Sanchez was cheaper than another pick would have been.

by David Tokarz on Jun 16, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

How many highly drafted pitchers flame out? They had zero actual prospects in the organization at the catcher position. Sanchez might not have that high of a ceiling but it’s fairly certain that he will be a great defensive catcher with projectable power and, as previously stated, cost millions less than other options at no.4 which allowed them to spend that money on numerous high upside arms as opposed to just 1.

Yes, I do spoon with my bat. I named it Jack. -Freddy Sanchez

by gorillakilla34 on Jun 18, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is flawed

GM A and GM B are both equally talented, have equal staffs, and do everything exactly the same. GM A works in a market where he can spend $130 million a year, GM B works with $50 million a year. Yes having a good set of scouts and a well run organization is important, but in the end, money is wayyyyyy to important in the current draft system to really have things equal.

Not to mention, the idea is for the bad teams to have an advantage in the draft with earlier picks. That’s completely nullified if a player like Rick Porcello decides he’s only signing a to a big deal, and only a handful of teams can realistically afford to pay him that.

by jseiner on Jun 11, 2009 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

every single team couldve realistically afforded to give porcello $7+ million....

my team, the Royals was able to give a much lesser prospect $6 million the next year, but couldnt afford Porcello? I dont buy that. Theres no excuse for any team to not have drafted Porcello.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jun 12, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't have the full numbers in front of me...

but I’d imagine a lot of teams had draft budgets that barely surpassed the $7 million mark, let alone putting that towards one high school player.

by jseiner on Jun 12, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

True, but that's begging the question

The only reason their draft budgets were so low is because they chose to spend their (ample) money elsewhere.

Fielding a major league team at the minimum salary costs only $10 million a year. Even a chronically hard-up team like the Pirates could easily afford to spend $20-25 million a season on player development by eschewing free agent signings.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Jun 12, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

That doesn't make it a wise decision...

…to put that much of your eggs in one basket. $7 million looks a heck of a lot bigger when you’ve only got $50 or so million available as opposed to $100+ million. Fact of the matter is that it probably isn’t wise to put that big a chunk of your budget into a guy that may never throw a pitch in the major leagues. At the very least, it’s a much easier investment decision for a team that can afford to risk wasting that $7 million.

Big market teams get enough of an advantage investing at the major league level in free agency. Odds should at least be even at the lower levels.

by jseiner on Jun 13, 2009 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

The odds ARE even

It’s not the fault of the bigger teams that the smaller teams are deliberately choosing to tilt the playing field against themselves.

Don’t get me wrong, I think MLB needs a salary cap yesterday. But when it comes to the amateur draft, small-market teams have no one to blame but themselves.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Jun 15, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

How are the odds even...

…if big market teams can afford to put significantly more money into both amateur signings and the free agent market. In what way are the smaller teams deliberately choosing to tilt the field against themselves?

If Porcello had been injured right after that signing and never pitched in the bigs, it would have been $7 million out of Detroit’s pocket. If Detroit can afford to put $125 million a year on average into total player salaries, that’s roughly six percent of their total available funds.

On the Pirates $60 million payroll (and $60M is being very generous), that same $7 million is about 12 percent of their total payroll. The Pirates would have to spend twice as much as Detroit in terms of percentage of available funds just to take a risk on Porcello.

I’m not saying the Pirates have historically done good things in the draft, or that money is the only reason they’ve gotten such miserable results, but you’re kidding yourself if you really think the odds here are even.

by jseiner on Jun 15, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Detroit can't afford that

Trust me here- the only reason the Tigers are paying out 125 million dollars is because Mike Illich owns the team.

Their signing of Porcello would have happened regardless of Detroit’s payroll- investing that much money is okay if you feel you’re getting a high return.

by David Tokarz on Jun 16, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, the question is once they agree to pay 60 million dollars

what’s the best way to invest it? Of course any time you give 7 of those million to anybody, there is the possibility of injury or them simply forgetting how to play, but there is also the potential pay-back that they might play considerably better than somebody making 7 million normally does (as weird as that may sound)

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by OldProspects on Jun 16, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

the pirates receive more funds from mlb central pool, revenue sharing and luxury tax...

than $60 million, so to say thats all they can afford is ridiculous.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jun 16, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

True...

…and I would argue that the system (and perhaps this is looking at a much larger scale than just the draft now) is flawed because it allows ownership to decide to spend cheaply in all aspects of the organization.

The Pirates, among other teams, have managed to significantly underspend at both the Major Leage level and in the draft/international free agency period, and have turned a profit in doing so. It’s not Kevin McClatchy’s fault that he found a loop hole of sorts in the system, exploited it for all the money he could make (in an entirely legal way), and left thousands of Pirates fans furious in the process.

The blame all falls on MLB for allowing a system to persist that can be corrupted in such a way and leaves its fans susceptible to such exploitations.

by jseiner on Jun 16, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's nothing

Compared to the genius of Jeffrey Loria.

by Fanon on Jun 16, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

You don't seem to be getting it

There is a practical limit to the amount of money a team can usefully spend on amateur talent, and it’s around $20-25 million a year. There just aren’t enough good prospects to justify more than that.

Every team can afford to spend that much money. I don’t know exactly how much more competitive baseball would become if the bottom 25 spenders stopped signing the Alex Coras of the world, hired minor league lifers at the minimum salary to fill out their benches, and spent the money on the draft instead— but it’s a lot.

The large-market teams would still have a significant edge because of free agency, but it’s an edge which can be overcome. By contrast, trying to win without signing overslot draft picks is essentially hopeless.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Jun 16, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Brewers have done it

It was a great selection of awesome.

by battlekow on Jun 16, 2009 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

1 playoff appearance?

and the huge bonuses and overslot signings late are a pretty recent phenomenon…we’ll see what happens in 3-4 years

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jun 16, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eliminate bonuses?

I’m not sure even I would do this, but tell me what’s wrong with this.

- Assign a specific amount to each pick, like the estimated slot. Say the #1 overall pick gets $6 million, no more, no less. Then #2 gets $5 million, #3 gets $4.5m, $4m, $3.5m, $3m, and so on.
- If the team in possession of the top pick wishes only to pay $2 million on their first-rounder, pass on the pick until #8 and take the best player available.
- That player has less leverage because the only way he will get more bonus money is if he goes higher in a later draft.

In what St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa called a "big day" for his club, starter Chris Carpenter took the mound for his first session of live batting practice and promptly buzzed the fuzz on catcher Jason LaRue’s chin with an errant fastball.

"Sorry," Carpenter called from the mound.

"Don’t say you’re sorry," LaRue barked back.

"He said it," pitching coach Dave Duncan said from the side of the cage, "but he didn’t mean it."
~ DG

by mateodh on Jun 10, 2009 10:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Next bargaining agreement...

I think this is more or less what will happen. MLBPA can’t really make an argument against the top guys selected getting the most money.

by jseiner on Jun 10, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not fair to the players

They should never be hoping to go later in the draft. Seven figures for a small-market team is a lot, but it’s way better than having to pay for that talent in free agency.

In what St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa called a "big day" for his club, starter Chris Carpenter took the mound for his first session of live batting practice and promptly buzzed the fuzz on catcher Jason LaRue’s chin with an errant fastball.

"Sorry," Carpenter called from the mound.

"Don’t say you’re sorry," LaRue barked back.

"He said it," pitching coach Dave Duncan said from the side of the cage, "but he didn’t mean it."
~ DG

by mateodh on Jun 13, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I posted this on a Mets message board a couple days before the draft

In regards to the draft coverage:

Are the players actually going to be there like they are for other sports?

If so, I can’t wait until the Padres or Pirates make a signability pick for a guy who wasn’t invited.

Shocker, shocker, shocker.

Be like the Rays. Spend the money. And you will get better.

Be like the Pirates. Keep making signability picks. And you will continue to play like you’ve played for the last 15 years. And continue to draw like you have for that period of time.

by Fanon on Jun 11, 2009 2:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Maybe you weren't paying attention

But the Pirates had one of the best drafts in the league, and will likely spend more than just about every team when all is said and done.

by RedSoxFaithful on Jun 11, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

except that.....

the Pirates spent the 4th most money on the draft in 2008 and will likely spend the same amount, if not a bit more, in 2009.

Is it better to spend 2/3 of your draft budget on 1 player or spread that money out and have a better chance of getting multiple impact (or solid) MLB players out of a draft? How many players are really worth spending half or 2/3rds of your budget on in this draft?

by ej6687 on Jun 11, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some years...

…there probably are players worth spending half the budget on, especially at the 4th pick. This year, however, was not one of those years.

by jseiner on Jun 11, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

They've definitely gotten better

I don’t give them that much credit for last year considering it was almost all bonus for one guy.

Either way, I think you should always pick the best player available, pretty much regardless of money.

And it wasn’t that I wasn’t paying attention, it’s that I didn’t have internet until about twenty minutes before I wrote that, checked the first round, and the Pirates have made a pick roundly looked at as an overdraft.

by Fanon on Jun 12, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Check out the rest of their draft

Especially days 2 and 3. They made so many likely above-slot picks that towards the end I was starting to get worried that they weren’t picking enough organizational filler to staff rosters at the lower levels (they also picked 34 pitchers out of their 51 picks).

The real test will be whether they can sign enough of these people to outweigh going conservative in the first round, but they sure hedged their bets by making sure they had plenty of options should some of them decide to honor their college commitments.

by Dignan on Jun 12, 2009 6:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cool

I wouldn’t worry about a lack of organizational players though. There are plenty of indie leaguers and undrafted college seniors out there who can take those spots if no one else will.

by Fanon on Jun 12, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is very true

It was late when I wrote that. In any case, I saw the Sanchez pick and was like, “Really, they’re back at this game again?” It’s good to hear that they went crazy though, I want that franchise to succeed.

by Fanon on Jun 12, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with what mateodh said

about the money for the pick every time every year..

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jun 11, 2009 11:45 PM EDT reply actions  

trade picks

a month before the draft. Not enough time to do it on draft day. That would also facilitate some May trades.

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Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY

by RangerMad on Jun 11, 2009 11:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Sanchez signs for above slot.

“Stunning”

It was a great selection of awesome.

by battlekow on Jun 12, 2009 9:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Officially

dumb

In what St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa called a "big day" for his club, starter Chris Carpenter took the mound for his first session of live batting practice and promptly buzzed the fuzz on catcher Jason LaRue’s chin with an errant fastball.

"Sorry," Carpenter called from the mound.

"Don’t say you’re sorry," LaRue barked back.

"He said it," pitching coach Dave Duncan said from the side of the cage, "but he didn’t mean it."
~ DG

by mateodh on Jun 13, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

We’ll see how many of those second/third day ‘over slot’ draftings they make actually get signed now. Making a signability pick in the first so that you can draft more higher-upside guys lately is an interesting strategy (not sure I’d do that), but if they’re paying Sanchez over slot now (why? seriously?) then I’d assume they’re not going to be in a position to sign as many of those kids as Pitt fans originally thought.

by metafour on Jun 13, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe

Depends on the budget Pittsburgh has allocated for the draft. Let’s say they had a $9 million draft budget. That means they could have gone with say, Matzek at #4 leaving them $1-2 million to spend on the rest of the draft. Instead, they spend $2.5 million on Sanchez(all of what, $25K over the suggested slot amount, not exactly a huge deal) which would leave them $6.5 million for the rest of their draft.

I mean what were people expecting Sanchez to sign for? Sure, it’s just over the suggested slot amount, but it’s way less than what the “better players” they should have taken at #4 would have cost. The only way thisgoes wrong is if Pittsburgh goes cheap on all the other picks, nullifying the reason to draft Sanchez in the first place.

RIP Nick Adenhart

by gatling on Jun 13, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why did they even give him slot? Sure, relative to who they could have drafted they saved money, but is Sanchez even worth the slot-money for a #4 pick? Arguably not even close. That franchise looks so inept, why would they draft a signability guy and then fail to sign him under-slot? ANY money they could have saved on Sanchez’s deal could have gone towards signing some of the other kids they drafted, many of which BTW aren’t going to sign for “slightly above-slot” money, so if you’re going to draft Sanchez at #4 you damn well better pinch every penny you can away from him.

The Nationals made a signability pick at #10 and they got Storen signed for $1.6 mil…nearly $300,000 less than slot for the #10 pick this year (almost $500k less than last year’s slot). The logical move would have been to float $2 million at Sanchez, thats still Top 8-10 money and its not like Sanchez is going to turn that down when he’s a late first round talent in the first place and cant benefit in any way from not signing. That right there saves them $500k and lets them pay one of those HS kids 2nd-round money.

by metafour on Jun 13, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sanchez

First the complaint everyone had against the Pirates taking him there was passing on better players and taking Sanchez because he’s a signability pick. Now the complaint is over $500K? Like I said before, unless they go cheap the rest of the draft, there isn’t anything to get up in arms about. They took a guy they liked, got him signed and can get him started in the minors, and they have money to spend on the high upside guys they took in the later rounds. Just because it’s not the status quo approach doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

RIP Nick Adenhart

by gatling on Jun 13, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

The logical move would have been to float $2 million at Sanchez, thats still Top 8-10 money and its not like Sanchez is going to turn that down when he’s a late first round talent in the first place and cant benefit in any way from not signing. That right there saves them $500k and lets them pay one of those HS kids 2nd-round money.

You say this like he definitely would have taken that. How do you know they didn’t start out offering $2 million? Also, I doubt the Pirates would have wanted negotiations to drag out until the last minute, so probably decided that going slightly overslot was better than having to go through long negotiations and not seeing him play until next season.

I am like your Dan Aykroyd and biglow would be Jane, the ignorant slut. -Chad

Good ol' KO

by thecoolest on Jun 13, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really, so a guy who outright knows he was drafted based off of signability is going to NOT take $2 million? Whats he going to do, sit out a whole year and MAYBE get half of that next year? Sanchez is a late first round talent in ANY draft, chances are strongly against him that he’ll luck out and have someone overdraft him again next year, and ability wise he’s not going to play into $2+ million dollar range. The choice for him is pretty easy IMO, if Pittsburgh doesn’t draft him he could have fallen all the way back to the end of the first and gotten a $1 million bonus, he’d be stupid to pass up $2 million.

The Pirates aren’t the Yankees or Red Sox, to get some of the guys they drafted in the later rounds signed they are going to need every single penny they can get. To get outright fleeced by a kid who had next to no negotiation power is hilariously sad. How can you seriously argue that drafting a guy based off of signability (which is what they did, no matter how much they say they liked Sanchez) and then botching the negotiations and actually giving him a bit MORE than slot is not a serious “WTF?” move. Drew Storen signed for under-slot within 24-hours of being drafted, he knew his standing and knew that even “just” $1.6 million is probably more than he’ll ever get as a college reliever…and heres the thing, Storen actually had a lot more power than Sanchez because he was a draft-eligible Sophomore and legitimately could have threatened going back to school.

Yeah the Pirates got their guy signed quickly, but when they come $500k short of signing Von Rosenberg (for example) its going to look utterly stupid giving Sanchez an extra $500k for absolutely no reason. Like I said initially, we’ll see how many of their guys they actually get signed…I’m not alone in being worried, theres already Pirates fans who are predicting that their draft “plan” will flop.

by metafour on Jun 13, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't forget...

The Pirates may have felt some pressure to get a deal done. After last year’s cluster!@#$ TS actually had some leverage, since they didnt want to go through that again and he knew it… Meanwhile Storen knew that the Nats draft was all about Strasburg, so his deal was very much take it or leave it.

by ADLC on Jun 16, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

It just strikes me as a bit premature

Why sign him within the first week? Let him sweat a little bit and see if you can save.

by Fanon on Jun 14, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Definitely

But if waiting a month meant that you could bring the price down and sign one of the picks you grabbed lower down that you wouldn’t otherwise, isn’t that potentially worth as much?

Also, it’s not like the Pirates are hurting in the catcher position and need to rush him to the majors, and considering that defense is his calling card, if he needs to be rushed a little tiny bit it should be fine. A month isn’t going to make much of a difference.

by Fanon on Jun 14, 2009 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I fail to see why it would even take 2+ months if they low-balled him…as again, Storen signed within 24 hours for under-slot. I’m not even trying to “pick” on Sanchez, but in my eyes the decision for him is made for him…there is nothing he can gain by holding out, in fact, if I were a Pirates fan I wouldn’t even be disappointed if they failed to sign Sanchez, got the #5 pick next year, and had that entire $2.5 mill to sign almost all (if not all) of the HS kids they drafted. Sanchez cant sit for months and hope the Pirates cave because there is about no way his stock will ever be as high as it was after he won the lottery and got taken 4th overall.

For the Pirates I just feel that its poor execution, which really isn’t a surprise from a franchise that has looked totally inept. If they sign everyone despite paying slot for Sanchez then I’ll be happy for them, but given that franchise’s history I have a feeling they’re not going to get as many of the “big names” signed as the “plan” called for and then failing to use the bargaining power on Sanchez will be really noticeable.

by metafour on Jun 14, 2009 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

All of this is true

I just don’t see why you pay a guy over slot when everyone accuses you of an overdraft.

by Fanon on Jun 14, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

They paid him slot, not overslot

And anyone who “deserved” to go 4th would have cost much more than slot.

by aCone419 on Jun 14, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

They did pay him slightly over slot
Boston College catcher Tony Sanchez, the No. 4 overall pick, accepted a $2.5 million bonus from the Pirates…Sanchez’ deal was slightly higher than MLB’s bonus recommendations, estimated to be $2.475 million at No. 4.

It was a great selection of awesome.

by battlekow on Jun 16, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm

Keep in mind that MLB reduced the bonus recommendations across the board by about 10 percent this year. So while Sanchez’s bonus was higher than this year’s slot, it was actually still less than last year’s bonus recommendation for the No. 4 slot.

Eric Arnett and Drew Storen have already signed as well, but I’m guessing that almost all of the other first rounders are looking to at least secure 2008 slot money. Nick Franklin is the only draftee that jumps out to me as a likely candidate for below-slot money.

by mrkupe on Jun 17, 2009 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

that they should have signed him for 2 million since low cost/signability is why they drafted him. However, you can’t group the current Pirates organization with the pre-2008 organization’s decision making. They have been impressive with most of their decisions, including last year’s draft. I am confident that they will get alot of these high ceiling HS guys signed.

So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded!? Yea, totally. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets do a sample. There are 4 of us and you're retarded. Thats 25 percent. -South Park; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce.

by gorillakilla34 on Jun 14, 2009 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

One Big Problem with the Draft

Is if you slot picks, how many rounds are there going to be in the draft? If you pick someone do they automatically get the slot money they are assigned to? Most teams will sign 20-30 of their draft picks out of the given 50. If you have a 50 round draft with a hard slotting system then they would be required to sign all 50 players I would imagine. Also think of how much leverage HS players will have. If they don’t like their slot $$$ they will just go to school or JC and re-enter the draft in 1 or 3 years again. I think the only solution is just allow teams to trade picks before the draft and keep it that signed players can’t be traded for 1 year after they sign.

by AthleticsReign on Jun 13, 2009 1:21 AM EDT reply actions  

Well, you've got two options

The NHL option and the NBA option. The NHL option is that once a player is drafted, his rights stay with the team that drafted him whether he signs or not. (Many NHL draftees play all the way through college without signing a pro contract.) The NBA option is simply to force players to really enter the draft, and give up amateur eligibility in doing so.

This is not an intractable problem.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Jun 15, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

NBA Solution

How do you actually enforce that guys are giving up amateur eligibility?

And with guys picked in the first five rounds, wouldn’t the presence of the indie leagues throw a wrench into that?

Honest questions, I’m not that familiar with the NBA’s drafting system.

by Fanon on Jun 16, 2009 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

You give them a deadline to declare for the draft

and sign with an agent. Right now, college/HS players can have an agent as an “advisor” without hiring them, which preserves their eligilibility as I understand it. With the NBA draft, players can declare, but if they haven’t signed with an agent prior to the deadline they can go back to school(basically if they’ve gotten word from teams that their draft position isn’t worth staying in the draft). They’re actually moving the deadline back for next year in the NBA, I think it’s May 8th or something starting next year.

So you do the same thing, make HS seniors and college juniors(and eligible sophomores) declare for the draft and hire an agent by a set date. I’d say mid-May at the latest, but maybe as early as the first of May or even sometime in April, if teams needed more time to re-adjust their draft boards. Like PT mentions about the NHL draft, in the NBA once a player is drafted, his rights are owned by the drafting team regardless of whether he signs right then or not. It’s why you see NBA teams draft European players and leave them overseas for a few years, they can wait as long as they want to try and sign them(Arvydas Sabonis was drafted by the Blazers in like 1986 but didn’t sign with them until the mid to late 90’s).

Now you could skip the declaring for the draft and all, and just go with the teams retain the rights to players they draft whether they sign or not. High school kids could still go play college ball if they wanted, they’d just know what team they have to negotiate with when they’re ready to play pro ball. That eliminates the whole Indy ball scene/using college as leverage aspect to the draft, so guys like Crow and Scheppers last year couldn’t just sit out because they don’t like the money offered. You wouldn’t have to add picks as compensation if a team doesn’t sign the player they drafted the year before, like the Nats getting the #10 pick because they failed to sign Crow.

My thought is to go with hard slotting on each pick, make players declare for the draft, and let teams retain the rights to the players they draft. You’d shrink the draft pool a bit, probably allowing the draft to be shortened by 10-15 rounds at least I’d think, maybe as much as 20-25. Because of the hard slotting, the players that do declare for the draft would know they need to sign if they really want to play pro ball. It takes away the advantage/leverage the draftees and agents have over the teams right now, and it helps the teams drafting at the top get the best players, ideally leading to more parity in the league. Even without a salary cap parity could be achieve to an extent, because the best players aren’t falling to good teams to do bonus demands, and the worse teams would potentially get 6 years of service time minimum from the top talent year in and year out.

RIP Nick Adenhart

by gatling on Jun 16, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, okay

The agent would be the difference maker. That makes perfect sense. I couldn’t figure out how you would bar them from amateur participation, but that would work.

by Fanon on Jun 16, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

The NBA has what amounts to "indie" leagues as well... namely, European leagues

though they haven’t really risen to a level at which they can attract and keep elite talent. Just like baseball’s indie leagues.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Jun 16, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

True

But I think it’s different in that the top picks from basketball are all going straight to the NBA, while the top picks from baseball still hone their craft in the minors for a year or two.

I bring up the indie leagues because Europe hasn’t really been used as a bargaining chip, as far as I know, but the indie leagues definitely have been in certain instances (Hochevar, Drew) for baseball players. The only difference I see is that NBA players are likely to jump straight in and are missing out on precious time, while baseball players aren’t necessarily changing their clock all that much by playing in the indie leagues for a summer, considering the level of competition is often about what they’d face in their first season of pro ball anyway.

Correct me if I’m wrong on any of this, trying to work it through myself why MLB would be different. Because I do think that the indie leagues would make it more difficult for MLB to have an NBA style system.

by Fanon on Jun 17, 2009 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

leverage?

How do you figure slot will give HS players leverage? If they think they can go to school and improve their draft position good for them, thats the point. Going to school and working hard trying to earn more money in the draft is the way its supposed to work.

Right now your getting idiots who are top 10 talents who can’t improve their draft position because they are all ready at the top. They are falling to the end of the round, or not signing at all because they think they can demand whatever money they want. By doing this Agents and 18 yr olds are running the game which is BS.

They should go with strict slot, everyone who wants to play in MLB must go through the draft process. And if you don’t like the slot money you better study something pretty damn good while your in college if you expect to find a job where your getting paid a million dollars for an entry level job.

And as far as the agents who created this problem,Boras, MLB should crack down and refuse to certify any player agent who tries to negotiate for both union(MLB) and non union(draft eligible) members. The way it is now the same agents are trying to control the league from both top(FA) and bottom(Draft).

Right now MLB is succeeding(revenue wise anyway) in spite of itself. If MLB set up a salary cap system, and a worldwide slotted draft, every single market in the league would be thriving instead of the what 8 that do now. This idea that competitve balance is bad is crazy. The NFL goes with a cap and they are the most powerful sports league by far.

As far as the cap I know people will argue if teams(Yankees, etc.) make all that money they should be able to spend it. Well under a capped system all the money they made would be profit, which they could then turn around and use to finance their OWN ballparks without any public money which is the way it should be. They can still make as much money as they want and spend it on whatever they want to, just not to gain a gross competitive on the field.

by GoldenSpikes24 on Jun 14, 2009 2:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Ballpark Finance

Isn’t going to be a big deal for decades, considering everyone has a new, fancy park now except the Florida teams (Miami is on the way), the Dodgers (Dodger Stadium is probably here to stay), the Royals (basically a new park after the renovation), Toronto, the White Sox, and the Red Sox and Cubs who are quite happy with their parks going forward, considering they sell out every game.

And as far as the agents who created this problem,Boras, MLB should crack down and refuse to certify any player agent who tries to negotiate for both union(MLB) and non union(draft eligible) members. The way it is now the same agents are trying to control the league from both top(FA) and bottom(Draft).

And I’m pretty sure this is illegal.

by Fanon on Jun 14, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

We're looking at this the wrong way

The claim being made constantly on this FanPost is that high end talent is slipping to big market teams (NYY, BOS, LAD, LAA). That’s a legitimate concern, but you’re not going to get the real answer unless you take a look who drafted expensive players and who was drafted by the big market teams, as follows.

Expensive Players-Team Drafted-Team Payroll (2009) (note- all team payrolls are rounded)

Donovan Tate-San Diego Padres-$44 Million
Tyler Matzek-Colorado Rockies-$75 Million
Aaron Crow-Kansas City Royals-$70 Million
Alex White-Cleveland Indians-$82 Million
Shelby Miller-St. Louis Cardinals-$78 Million

This isn’t a comprehensive list, but what I’m seeing is that midmarket teams are picking up premium talent. Heck, take a look at the top 10 teams in payroll (NYY, NYM, CHI, BOS, DET, LAA, PHI, HOU, LAD, SEA) and look at who they picked. The only true top tier talents went to Detroit at #9 and Seattle at #2. So either small market teams are acting like idiots or they didn’t want to spend money on “high ceiling” players in this draft.

What I’m getting at is that if you look at the teams that are supposedly “large market” (and I’d chop Detroit and Seattle off that list of top 10 teams), they’re not pulling a massive amount of talent out of the markets due to incredibly large bonuses, but due to scouting and luck. Sure, they have a structural advantage, but even the Yankees have a budget.

by David Tokarz on Jun 16, 2009 1:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Scouting

Correlates directly with money. But not really in a way that any alterations to the draft could change.

by Fanon on Jun 16, 2009 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why?

Are the best scouts making substantially more than the worst scouts to the point that only rich teams have good scouts? Do the Red Sox hire three times as many scouts as poorer teams? Are they able to build larger and better baseball academies in Latin America that give the wealthier teams a distinct advantage in recruiting the best international free agents? What do you mean?

TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems

by OldProspects on Jun 16, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Both of the latter two questions can be answered "Yes"

Not sure about the first one.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Jun 16, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not possible to predict who "the best Latin American players" are at the time of signing,

because they’re mostly 16-year-olds who haven’t stopped growing yet and have barely played organized baseball.

That being said, large market teams routinely get the vast majority of the acknowledged “top prospects” every season. Last year was, I’m aware, an exception to the rule.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Jun 17, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is ironic because last year

also saw a dramatic increase in the amount of money spent in Latin America. In other words, it isn’t quite so simple.

TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems

by OldProspects on Jun 17, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why is that ironic?

More competition = higher prices. Seems fairly simple to me…

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Jun 18, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

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