22 year old reigning AA Pitcher of the year
Having a nice spring so far.
5 innings, 7 Ks, 3 Hits Zero walks Zero runs Zero earned runs.
Did I say he is hitting 96 on the gun?
Oh yeh, I am sure that there are 27 better pitching prospects who fill up the strike zone with 90+ heat (with excellent movement), 4 solid pitches and quality pitching approach.
I guess there is always time for him to fail.
Do people still really think there are 96 better prospects than him? Small sample size, but 96 MPH heat is not so small.
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Do people still really think there are 96 better prospects than him? Small sample size, but 96 MPH heat is not so small.
is he 96 on every prospect list?
also who are you talking about lol
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
Mazzaro I assume
Maybe because he was bad in Single A in 2007 and bad after a promotion to AAA in 08. He may have legitimately turned a corner, but I’m sure a lot of people think his AA performance was a fluke.
Of Oakland's "big 3"
Mazzaro is the least talked about, obviously. It’s hard to gauge how good this guy really is, or may become because his season in AA came out of nowhere. However, there is no denying he was very, very impressive last season. Keep in mind that he only threw 33 innings after his AAA promotion. Even with the down numbers he maintained a nice 3/1 (27/9) K/BB ratio during that time, but it was too small a sample size to put too much weight into his AAA performance. What I can tell you is he, along with Cahill, has been the talk of the A’s camp this spring. He’s been throwing a low-mid 90’s sinking fastball with a lot of movement that has touched 96 at times and his secondary stuff sounds like it’s been just as nasty. It’s hard to get too excited about a few ST innings but it sounds as though Mazzaro may have indeed turned that corner.
I hadn't heard about this improvement of his secondary stuff
That’s really interesting. Do you have any details? Out of curiosity, what’s your source?
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by OldProspects on Mar 7, 2009 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
Sadly enough
He probably is still behind another A-AA kid throwing just as well if not better for the A’s in ST.
One will open the season in Duke’s rotation spot though as he likely will be on the DL come opening day.
My guess is Eveland, Gallagher, Braden, Gio, Cahill. Edgar will make the roster as the swingman allowing the others to cut teeth in AAA. Sacramento will be Mazzaro, Anderson, Simmons, Outman, J Williams
Since I won't start another thread, this got me thinkin ...
IF Eveland is OAK’s opening day starter is he the worst #1 in baseball?
I am sure WAS would put a claim in with Lannan, but who would everyone else say?
Texas
Eveland is also pitching pretty well this spring. Though small sample size,
Eveland wasn't as bad as people think last year.
In fact, over the first half he was one of the best pitchers in the league. He has the stuff to be successful at the major league level and I don’t think a 4.34 ERA as a rookie is something to look down on. He got rocked in a couple outings after the break and up until his last outing in Boston that he was hit hard (and demoted right after) his ERA was under 4. He worked on some things in AAA, changed his mechanics some, and had more success after he returned to the big club. Obviously he is no number one so he is probably one of the “worst” opening day pitchers in the majors, but he is good enough to be a solid middle of the rotation type starter for the A’s in 09’. I would say Millwood is probably in that conversation as well. Big difference being that Eveland is still very young and will likely get better. Not sure what you can say about Millwood at this point.
Eveland was not a rookie last season
That was the fourth season that he spent time in the majors, though I’ll grant you that the other three (31.2, 27.2, 5.0 innings) were pretty forgettable.
Eveland
He was one of my favorite Brewers prospects way back when. He’s still young and I still have hope, but man, he and Hendrickson have me wondering if some guys just can’t handle the Majors mentally, even if the stuff and the track record are there… At least he seemed to make some progress last year.
I'm Matt (expletive) Bush!
Depends on what stats you're looking at.
His tRA is 5.33. StatCorner has him at 1 WAR.
His FIP was 4.09. Fangraphs has him at 2.7 WAR.
His xFIP is 4.62. THT doesn’t do WAR, but that would put him somewhere in the 1.8 WAR area.
I look at his 2008 and I see a walk rate too high and an unsustainable home run / flyball rate. Line drive rate is a little below average, groundball rate is good, flyball rate is low, k rate is average. Nothing anomalous in the strand rates, BABIP, or what have you, so we have a pretty clear picture of his skill set as it stands right now.
There’s certainly some parts here to work with, but he’s surely not a “good” pitcher yet. Really needs to cut down the walks. His groundball rate will erase many free pass mistakes with double plays, but he can’t always count on that. Cut the walks and he could be an effective #2 or #3 starter.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 7, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
eveland had a couple issues
poor eyesight, apparently he thinks contacts have helped and will get lasik surgery after this season
his delivery was too complicated, his trip to AAA simplified it and had better results.
his biggest issue was weight which he got in control last season.
i think if everything goes right he’s a solid 3/4 type, but cahill/anderson and others jump ahead of him eventually . considering he was a throw in and considered the 6th best player in the haren deal at the time. A’s were impressed w/ his mexican winter league last season and took a chance
by Asfan4ever723 on Mar 8, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I really like Eveland
I think picking up Greg Smith and him at the end of the Haren deal may have been one of the smartest things that Billy Beane has ever done (I’m exxagerating, but I do think it was an outstanding move)
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mazzaro
4 stops in 3 years in the minors
era:
5.05
5.33
1.90
6.15
In three of the 4 stops, he gave up over 1 hit per inning. In his one good era stop, he gave up considerably less than a hit per inning.
Maybe it is just me but one of the four stops seem much different than the others.
Maybe a little context would help
2006 – 5.05 Not very good
2007 – 5.22, somehow gets promoted, but does not have a very good year.
2008 – Comes to camp in shape and ready to pitch. Turns every head in camp with new determination to be a great pitcher. Earns a promotion to AA by having a great camp. Dominates AA most of the year, gets promoted to AAA at age 21 and struggles at the end of a year in a relatively small sample size.
The late promotion probably hurt him as a prospect, but helped him a lot as a pitcher as it showed him that he still had much to work on to make it to the show.
2009 – Comes to camp determined to earn a spot on the big league club. Throws 96 with movement, and still has 4 quality pitches. Again turns every head in camp and probably every scout that has seen him pitch.
let's see what he can do once the season starts
I think B/B- is a very fair grade for him right now considering the history.
by playingwithfire on Mar 7, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
data + story = history, data alone does not equal history
Put the data in context and that is the difference between one who is knowledgeable and one who is just a propellerhead.
I am not even saying the the future holds or anything, but the A’s management evaluation last spring was exactly correct and I suspect this year it is also.
one more thing
I mention this case not because I care if this guy makes it any more than anyone else. I am just of the opinion that Mazzaro is the prime case why scouts still have jobs. The numbers of 2006 and 2007 obviously did not tell the story for 2008.
I suspect that the odds of him dominating again are, barring injury, are pretty high if the eary spring is any indication.
history also tells us that Spring Training is not a very good indicator of talent
by playingwithfire on Mar 7, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
not true
For the vast majority of cases, ST is a very good indicator of talent. Just looking at the results of ST is probably a fairly poor indicator.
I would say in the very high percentage of cases, a professional talent evaluator can tell if someone has talent by the end of ST.
Obviously, there are instances when the talent evaluator is wrong, but that would probably be in the small minority of cases.
The people who are wrong most often are those who look solely at the numbers, just like most of the people on this board who rated Mazzaro so low.
look
Mazzaro’s problem was he walks too much.
Now if he keep his rate at last year’s pace, he can be a good middle of the rotation candidate. If the rate goes back up to 3.5+ per 9 innings, he’s not going to have too much success. He simply doesn’t have the strikeout history to rank higher than a potential #2 and with his short track record, it’s reasonable to see him as a bottom of the top 100 list prospect.
by playingwithfire on Mar 7, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
This is basically my opinion as well
although there’s an outside chance that he could make a run at being a Derek Lowe type (good control, few flyballs).
I think he’s pretty clearly a top 100 prospect at this point, however. That’s not to say that people who graded him outside the top 100 in December were wrong, just that there’s more available info now.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
FIPs
3.80
4.93
3.00
4.31
Looks like he’s been pretty unlucky with his ERAs, mostly in environments that heavily favor hitters.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
Right.
Not that I trust minor league FIP numbers either, but when, folks, are we going to stop using ERA as an indicator of anything?
ERA is a team defensive run prevention stat, not necessarily an indicator of pitching talent.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 7, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
that FIP is still hardly
premium pitching prospect level, no?
by playingwithfire on Mar 7, 2009 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
3.00 is pretty elite
4.93, not so much, obviously…
Keep in mind, scoring an FIP much under 3 is almost impossible for starters. There were all of three pitchers in the entire major leagues who managed that feat in 2008, and two of them won Cy Youngs.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
The 3.80 and the 3.00 are and the 4.31 would be league average.
The 4.93 not so much.
So the question is, what was the real fluke?
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 8, 2009 6:12 AM EST up reply actions
Well, in his defense the 4.31 was in 33 IP
When he was 21 and in AAA. He seems to be a somewhat above-average pitcher who had a horrible year in 2007. I’d be surprised if he becomes more than a #3 starter, and frankly expect him to be more of a #4 or #5 starter, but that’s still worth something
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by OldProspects on Mar 8, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like a man-crush
and love is blind.
Lets see him have some success this year before I jump on the band wagon.
I am not on Board the Mazzaro band wagon
That said if he has success this year thier is no chance to jump on the Bandwagon he will offically be elite because sucess this year will mean a quick promortion to the big leagues.
I threw up in my mouth
reading your post
what happened to objectivity?
Where did you get the 27th pitcher from?
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I just counted, could have counted wrong
But it seems that if AA is the dividing line, the place where most prospects live or die, and one has the returning AA player of the year at age 21, then that would hold a little more water than 97th best prospect.
Just doesnèt make sense. Especially if the guy a really good stuff. I could see it if the guy throws mid 80s, but we are talking about a low to mid 90s and fills up the strike zone.
I can see the argument about wanting see the guy put 2 good years together. But really, there are a lot of guys ahead of him that have not had any year nearly as good as him.
for example
I know very little about Adam Miller, but, statisticly, if Mazzaro were to be hurt for the next 2 years, then that would equal the career of Adam Miller.
Yet, Miller is still considered a better prospect? It does not make sense.
I'm sorry, but I meant which list
BA?
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by OldProspects on Mar 7, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
And where was he rated #97?
I’m not disputing where he should be rated, btw (I like him but am more cautious than you), just curious
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by OldProspects on Mar 7, 2009 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, thanks!
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by OldProspects on Mar 8, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
very good stuff?
he dosenr have very good stuff. Tommy Hanson and Brett Anderson and those guys have very good stuff.
The fact that he hit 96 in spring dosent constitute as very good stuff.
He is a nice prospect, no where close to elite right now though.
I think this is a bit enthusiastic
I like Mazzaro and he is doing very well this spring, but we have to look at the whole picture. The list was done before spring training and nobody was talking about hitting 96 with the fastball. Also, it’s fun to talk about a 96 mph sinker but the consensus still seems to be that he sits in the low 90’s with it and that’s not all that amazing. I think it’s fair to wonder how much real progress Mazzaro made last year and how much was luck.
I don’t know how far Mazzaro’s secondary stuff has come but he has never been a big strikeout guy and that is definitely something to be concerned about at lower levels. Guys can succeed pitching to contact but it’s not the surest bet when your doing it in A ball.
One thing I do agree with is that I think people misinterpret Mazzaro’s AAA stats from last year. If you look closer at the numbers Mazzaro was pretty much the same pitcher in AAA as he was in AA, just severely unlucky. If he maintains his improvement in control I think he can move up the list but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have him around 100.
No
Maybe 150 better prospects. yawn Pitchers are always ahead of the hitter in the first couple weeks of ST so your stats are essentially meaningless. Go ahead get excited about those 5 innings but they don’t thrill me at all.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Mar 8, 2009 10:24 AM EDT reply actions
i think at times
mazzaro is getting overrated a bit and simmons underrated…i think they are pretty even
from interviews a’s seem to add mazzaro along with cahill/anderson. forst said mazzaro actually had more velocity, pitching. hard breaking stuff, a bigger breaking ball than cahill. said that mazzaro had as good a year as the other guys, just didn’t get the recognition.
simmons as discussed before had a medical issue w/ sleep apnea, which caused some struggles, but held his own in AA. here’s a goldstein q&a including mazzaro/simmons
Compairing Simmons to Mazzaro is like compairing apples to oranges.
I know a lot of A’s fans have crushes on Simmons because of his fast rise in the minors, but Simmons is not even in the same league as Mazzaro prospect wise.
Mazzaro tops out throwing a 96mph sinking fastball with multiple “plus” breaking pitches, while Simmons throws high 80’s with no “plus” pitches and only a slightly above average change-up.
Depending on how his control develops Mazzaro could end up as a #2/3 pitcher, but depending on how Simmon’s breaking pitches develops Simmons could end up as a poor man’s Joe Blanton.
Simmons and Mazzaro are not even prospects.
Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.
by Threepwood XX on Mar 8, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I missing something?
What are these plus breaking pitches of Mazzaro? My understanding was he had a very good sinking fastball, but that everything else was quite questionable. I thought I was one of Mazzaro’s biggest fans, but apparently not. If he has “multiple plus breaking pitches”, as well as this fastball, then how come he struck out less than 7 people per 9 innings?
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according to the A's minor league director
Mazzaro has a better breaking pitch than Cahill.
Look, I am not saying that this spring performance means he is the best prospect in baseball. I am sure he will fail a number of times in the near future.
However, I also think that he should have been considered a top 25 prospect based on his stuff and his AA performance.
Obviously, no one here has a personal vendetta against the guy, but I find it interesting why the 21 year old AA pitcher of the year with excellent stuff gets rated so low.
Possibe causes:
1. Just looking at his minor numbers from 2006 and 2007 does not really tell a great story about his performances. He had great stuff, he was just really inconsistent. No noe knew what kind of pitcher would show up on any given day. He obviously fixed most of those problems last year which is why I thought the performance so significant.
2. With the performances of Cahill, Anderson and the signing of Inoa, I think there was a fairly large shadow cast. Not a lot of scouts talking about this guy. The ones who did however give him glowing reviews from last year.
3. Sinker ball pitchers tend to show much more success as they move up. Depending on low A and high A fieleders would make a lot of guys crazy. I would call it the Tim Hudson effect.
Just some ideas. I still think he is a top talent. Well above Simmons and should have landed in the middle 20’s to 30’s. Just my opinion.
according to the A's minor league director
there you have it….do you realize EVERY spring some guy has three plus pitches, some guy is in the best shape of his career, some guy gained 15 pounds or lost 20 pounds.
EVERY spring it happens, and 95% of the time it amounts to nothing.
This arguement is very simple: if he has a 96 MPH sinker with a plus secondary pitch, he wouldnt have gotten jacked around in AAA lol..end of story.
Cecil
How do you think he stacks up as better than a guy like Cecil, who I thought we rated a little too low, but should be in 40-50 range anyhow.
Rios is the next Juan Gonzales, thats right, I said it.
by KaoticKlown on Mar 10, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Mazzaro has always had the breaking pitches. In fact, in ‘06 when the A’s drafted their high school “little three” of Italiano, Lansford, and Mazzaro, Mazzaro was considered to be the best of the three because while Italiano had power but no breaking pitches, and Lansford had breaking pitches but no power, Mazzzaro had both. On top of that he’s improved his breaking pitches greatly since he was drafted and even A’s manager Garen was commenting how good his curve has become.
Mazzaro’s difficulties have stemmed more from control then from the quality of his offspeed pitches. You can’t strike a hitter out if you are walking them or leaving your pitches in the hitter “wheelhouse.” Mazzaro’s K/9 has steadily gone up with every promotion he’s had since being drafted, so I wouldn’t worry too much about the K’s yet.
Also strikeouts may not be one of the best indicators of how well he is pitching, Mazzaro had a 1.10 WHIP in 137 innings in AA last year. That’s 2.4 whole points below Simmon’s whip. That tells me that Mazzaro is MUCH less hittable then Simmons.
Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.
by Threepwood XX on Mar 8, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
WHIP is a fantasy stat for point giving.
It means doubly nothing to a minor leaguer.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 8, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, why is WHIP so pointless for analyzing a minor league pitcher and what should I be using instead?
Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.
by Threepwood XX on Mar 9, 2009 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Why
WHIP was created purely to give pitchers another stat to get points from for fantasy leagues. It really isn’t an indicator of anything. The main idea is that a lower WHIP means that a player walks people less and gives up fewer hits, and is a per inning basis.
Allowing baserunners on free passes is generally a bad idea, so we already have stats that measure walk rate. Whether you choose to use BB/9 or BB% (walks / total batters faced), you have the idea already. Even if you wanted to parse that down to a per inning basis, you’d still have it.
We also already have hit rate stats. Again, whether you prefer H/9 or H% is your perrogative. There are two fatal flaws with even considering hit rate as an indicator of pitching talent: defense and luck. Defenses vary wildly, especially in the minor leagues, and balls in play turned into hits in the minors may not be with a superior defense. There is also little to no correlating evidence that pitchers can control whether a ball hit by the batter will be a hit or not. Generally, we just prefer if the batter doesn’t hit the ball at all (swinging strikes / strikeouts = good). So, WHIP, which combines walks AND hits into a singular stat, already has one theoretically flawed pitching talent evaluator included.
WHIP also doesn’t differentiate between a pitcher who gives up a ton of hits or a ton of walks. Thus, your Carlos Silvas would get lumped right in there with your Rich Hills, even though they’re two entirely different pitchers. Which is worse, in your eyes? A pitcher who gives up a lot of hits or a pitcher who offers a bunch of free passes? Determination of a pitcher’s skill set and talents rests upon using these stats individually, not combining them into a singular baserunner stat like WHIP.
What you should be using instead are the controllable factors of a pitcher. Walks, strikeouts, ball in play types, etc. Context is also important. A pitcher posting good numbers and a low ERA at High Desert, for example, may be a superior pitcher or he may not. Eliminate the noise and go with the skill sets and judge from there.
Scouting, honestly, is the best way to go for minor league prospects. Minor league stat analysis is always going to have the potential for outside factors screwing up the data.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 9, 2009 6:10 AM EDT up reply actions
No stat tells you the whole picture
ERA might say that Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux had similar success, which doesn’t mean that they’re the same pitchers. That doesn’t make it an invalid stat, just one of certain value. WHIP is a composite stat, which means that while it isn’t as precise as H/9 or BB/9, it gives you a more total picture. Scouting also plays a very significant role in understanding prospects, but stats do a better job of explaining just how good a player is right now, and WHIP is one of them, not the best, but one of them
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I'm sorry but...
Where on earth are you getting an idea that WHIP gives you a more total picture of anything?
And if I may again.
Those are two sabermetrics experts in those links, certainly better at this then I am. Dave Cameron may not be well liked on this site, but he knows his maths. Graham is one of the founders of StatCorner and the awesome tRA stat. If you like, I could probably find a Tom Tango article dismissing WHIP as well.
In fact, I would love to find a single expert out there that likes WHIP and thinks that it gives you a total picture of how good a pitcher is. The case against the stat is too huge to be taken seriously. It was created for fantasy baseball and that’s it. It should not be used as a talent evaluator.
Oh, and one more thing:
ERA
I know I mentioned it, but it was done for a reason. ERA is another incomplete stat in evaluating pitching talent. As I pointed out elsewhere in this comment thread, FIP is much better (and no, it isn’t perfect either).
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 9, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I think as a quick and dirty tool, WHIP isnt terrible
Its very inaccurate, yes, but the best pitchers are typically the best at limiting baserunners – so there is some relationship there. Limiting baserunners correlates well with being a successful pitcher, so if we were to plot WHIP we would find the best pitchers with the lowest WHIPs in general, and the worst pitchers with the worst WHIPs in general…
I never really use it for anything, myself, but I wouldnt throw it away. I think of it in the same way I think of OPS. We know the components arent in the correct ratios in either stat, but theyre a decently useful broad strokes tool – as long as youre aware of the limitations.
You could say the same thing about ERA
That a good pitcher should have a low ERA and a bad pitcher should have a high one. It doesn’t change the fact that having a low ERA or a low WHIP doesn’t tell you anything about the pitcher’s talent.
WHIP doesn’t tell you about run prevention, it only tells you about base runners. To WHIP, a guy walking the world or giving up a ton of hits is exactly equal. To WHIP, a guy giving up a ton of singles vs. giving up a ton of home runs is equal. To WHIP, innings pitched is a controllable skill for pitchers.
Seriously, there is nothing that WHIP tells us that’s useful. If you want walks, go look at walks. If you want hits, go look at hits. If you want innings pitched, go look at innings pitched. WHIP is a fantasy stat and tells us next to nothing about a pitcher’s talents.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 10, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Just plain old runs per nine innings would be the best "simple" indicator of pitching talent
although unfortunately it’s not printed very often.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
Runs per 9?
Run prevention is the effort of both the pitcher and the 8 guys playing defense with him. I don’t see why you’d use runs given up as an indicator of talent.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 10, 2009 4:03 AM EDT up reply actions
It's a better indicator of talent than ERA is
because pitchers have some control over the number of batters who reach on errors.
Neither one of them is a very refined measure of pitching skill, but neither is OPS a very refined measure of hitting skill.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
This... I have never heard.
because pitchers have some control over the number of batters who reach on errors.
I would love to see evidence of this. I mean, in the same vein as allowing hitters to put the ball in play or in some other way?
If it’s the former, okay, sure, I suppose. But that’s only taking into account a fundamental part of balls in play. That is, being the nature of the ball in play (grounder, liner, fly ball). Beyond that, the pitcher really doesn’t have any control over whether Butterfingers McShortstop mishandles a hop or throws a yikes and away (unless you’re Gaylord Perry, then we KNOW why he threw a yikes and away…).
If it’s another nature of the game, I’m open to listen.
Neither one of them is a very refined measure of pitching skill, but neither is OPS a very refined measure of hitting skill.
This is true. More data is always what is needed to effectively drive good conclusions.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 11, 2009 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure
It may be simply groundball rate (and ball-in-play rate, of course). Groundballs are obviously much more likely to provoke errors than flies and liners are.
It might be slightly more refined than that in ways that we can’t really measure at this time, but obviously the vast majority of control over error rates is in the hands of the fielders.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
I would think that any involvement of a pitcher
would be so incredibly minimal that it wouldn’t be measurable. I mean, it’s really hard to make sense of Yuni Betancourt being Felix Hernandez’s problem meanwhile New York pitchers somehow make Derek Jeter’s hands much more sure (range still sucks, but his hands are not in question).
Just sayin’. Doesn’t sound like it holds a lot of water to me.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 12, 2009 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions
All of the criticisms from your first link
(that hits and innings are not strictly under the control of the pitcher) applies precisely as well to H/9, which you endorse above. If your goal is to find holes in the stat, then that is of course not very difficult to do. The tactic of sabermetrics is to use a series of stats in order to get a better understanding of what precisely the player did – if you needed a single stat, I’d also use FIP and after that ERA, but I don’t think WHIP is a terrible option, despite it’s fantastical roots
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by OldProspects on Mar 10, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Clarification
(that hits and innings are not strictly under the control of the pitcher) applies precisely as well to H/9, which you endorse above.
I didn’t endorse it. WHIP is a combination of walks and hits added together and divided by innings pitched. If you needed to know someone’s hit rate, there’s a better way to get it. I said the same thing for walks. Statistically, there is a valid reason to keep track of the number of hits that have occured while the pitcher is pitching. There just isn’t any reason to use it to evaluate pitcher talent.
The tactic of sabermetrics is to use a series of stats in order to get a better understanding of what precisely the player did –
Naturally. This should be what everybody does. More information gathered helps with good process. In this example, I’m simply pointing out why WHIP sucks.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 10, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm..
Mazzaro tops out throwing a 96mph sinking fastball with multiple "plus" breaking pitches
Then he’d be Felix Hernandez.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 8, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The only purpse of that comp is to undermine my argument.
You are purposely picking the most extreme comparison you can, even if it makes no sense, to try to delegitimize my argument without making one of your own. It’s rude, it’s bad form, and I don’t appreciate it.
There are lots of good #2/3 pitchers out there that throw mid 90’s and have 2 plus breaking pitches. Those two things alone do not make you an ace pitcher and DEFINATLY do not make you Felix Hernandez.
Mazzaro is over two years older then Felix when he broke camp, does not have his build/height, and has not as of yet proven his control. Comparing Felix to Mazzaro at this point is like comparing Mazzaro to Simmons—they just aren’t in the same league as each other.
Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.
by Threepwood XX on Mar 9, 2009 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions
My point is that the information you provided was bad.
Simply giving me “96mph sinking fastball” and “multiple ‘plus’ breaking pitches” makes the player sound greater then he is. Since Felix Hernandez was highly thought of because of a mid to high 90s heater and three plus offspeed pitches, you’re making them sound very similar without context. I think we can agree that if Mazzaro was really as good as you think he is, especially with the breaking pitches, he’d be a better prospect.
I don’t personally have any interest in Mazzaro one way or the other, but you’re not doing your argument any favors, hence the quip. So, yes, I am undermining your argument by pointing out the flaws. You have to understand, though, that’s what everybody disagreeing with you is also doing. Those you are trying to convince will not be if you do not make a stronger case.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 9, 2009 6:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Well that didn't work.
The bold was supposed to start and end with “Multiple”. Ignore the rest of the bolding.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 9, 2009 6:18 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
It would also help if somebody brought a source for these plus breaking balls.
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by OldProspects on Mar 9, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
he dosent throw 96 and he dosent have mutiple plus breaking pitches
NEWS FLASH!! people with that stuff dont get their ass handed to them in AAA for 30 innings. he gave up 49 hits in 33 innings…his stuff isnt as good as you are makijng it out to be
33 innings doesn't mean much
Plus he had a .404 BABIP and a 4.00 FIP in those 33 innings, so he probably was unlucky on some of those hits. I’m sure many pitchers that went on to have productive MLB careers had their “ass handed to them” in tiny sample size promotions at the end of minor league seasons.
missed my point
guys with his “supposed” stuff do not get knocked around like that.
Guys with good sink of a low 90’s fastballs and average secondary pitches do, which is what he is.
propeller head observation? Hard to say
Do youknow he was knocked around? Did you see any of the games?
Maybe he was struggling with a nagging injury.
I know, for example, that Brett Anderson’s would have been amazing last year had he not tried to pitch through an injury in A ball.
What I do know is that he dominated AA for most of the season and was the AA pitcher of the yearat 21 years of age. I suspect that he has far better stuff than you realize.
Who still uses the phrase "propeller head"?
And you still haven’t explained why you think he has plus secondary pitches. Considering I really like him, I’m hoping you’re right, but you haven’t presented any evidence, propeller head or not, in favor of it
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plus secondary
Have I used the word ‘plus’? Can’t remember.
You might check but I doubt that I did. I have used the word ‘quality’ and that is the word that I have heard used to described his secondary pitches.
He is 22 and Iam sure he will have days when the stuff is not there. I do know that they say he has a better breaking ball than Cahill, which is pretty good.
I'm sorry
Threepwoodx said that he had 3 plus breaking pitches. You said that he had 3 solid ones, which also surprised me as BA implied that though his fastball is very good, his secondary stuff needs serious work.
I’m sorry, but who said that he has a better breaking ball than Cahill?
I think the general point, though, is that he is an interesting prospect with solid stuff but with a lot of holes in his game that still need to be fixed, which is why he finished at the bottom of the Community list, and didn’t even make BA’s or BP’s list (which I disagree with, incidentally)
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by OldProspects on Mar 9, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Can' remember exactly
It was either the A’s minor league director or their personnel guy.
He has no real reason to inflate Mazzaro over Cahill.
He does
have reason to inflate Mazzaro’s value. It makes sense for the A’s to inflate his value if they wanted to trade him. It’s possible they want to sell high on him.
Not saying they will or should, just giving a possible motive.
not really
Not at the expense of Cahill.
Besides, they are not going to trade Mazzaro or Cahill.
Not really
Nobody’s questioning Cahill’s breaking ball. People are questioning Mazzaro’s. The effect, therefore, is to raise Mazzaro without much damaging Cahill. It’s the equivalent of a Kennedy saying that Patrick Kennedy is as good of a speaker as his uncle – nobody would take that as an insult to Ted Kennedy’s speaking, but everybody would understand it to be (high) praise of the nephew
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by OldProspects on Mar 13, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
then how about
at the expense of there own credability (sp?). Its not like someone thinks another team would want him without seeing him pitch.
The whole issue is nonsense. Mazzaro is not going anywhere. If he does, it wil be to a team that has scouted him in detail because Beane will be extracting top dollar.
As of today, all reports are that he has a number of quality pitches. Please post anything recent that says otherwise.
Well, Baseball America's book for one
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by OldProspects on Mar 14, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Tell me what it says
and was it actually based on someone seeing him pitch.
Today on the MLB network, the A’s personnel director said Mazzaro has a plus curve and a plus slider. He still needs to work on the change-up. He also said Mazzaro can throw 95-96, but that it does not sink much so I figure the higher octane pitches are 4 seemers.
Again, it was an A’s employee, but it is pretty easy to verify if it is true. The guy must have something of quality because he has put up some good numbers.
I don't have it in front of me
But I’m sure somebody else here does.
One thing – you’re coming dangerous close to mixing up two points. One possibility is that he had good secondary stuff last year, which is how his numbers in AA were so strong. In that case, you’re disputing a whole series of sources that disagree with you. Your much more viable argument – which may very well be correct – is that over the off-season he improved his breaking balls. I’d still like to see a source not being paid by the Oakland As or a local journalist before jumping too hard on that bandwagon.
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by OldProspects on Mar 14, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
From Today's SF CHronicle
Mazzaro appears to have a slight edge among the three. He is the oldest, at 22, he has more time at Triple-A, and he’s also throwing lights out this spring. He has worked five innings, allowed three hits, walked none and struck out seven. Opponents are batting .167 against him, and scouts rave about his clean, balanced delivery. Plus, he throws in the low-to-mid-90s, and he has a good changeup and a hard slider.
“Mazzaro is very impressive – wow!” one scout said by text message after his most recent outing, two scoreless innings.
“Man, I’d like to have him on our club,” another said. Asked what he liked best about Mazzaro, he replied, “Everything. The ball comes out of his hand like – poof!”
haha ok
I have followed him pretty closely actually…I know you will try to explain away getting hit around like that, but guys with elite stuff (like you are trying to fabricate he has) dont do that.
If your main arguement for him is “he as the AA pitcher of the year” then that explains why you start a whole post based on his outings in spring training…it means NOTHING.
plus
you can make the arguement that he got lucky in his stint at AA with only a .282 BABIP. Onviously not all 49 hits were line drives, but that is just an insane amount of hits for someone with a “96 MPH fastball with good sink, and a plus secondary pitch”
Daaron said he thinks Mazarro deserved to be a top 20 prospect…find me some top 20 prospects who gave up 49 hits in 30 innings at ANY point. Guys with elite stuff dont do that.
Brett Anderson
Gave up 50 hits in 39 innings in A ball.
That was the ffirst guy I looked at. I suspect it is far more common than you portray.
It's 40 innings, geez
I don’t think he’s a top 20 prospect or that he has a 96 mph sinker and 2 plus breaking pitches. But he’s solid. You don’t have to talk like he’s a AAA filler to prove.
A lot of pitchers don’t do well in small samples sizes
Phil Hughes-Scranton-2008
by playingwithfire on Mar 9, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
it is a small size
but it is pretty convenient to be able to just throw away getting hit that hard to “small sample size”…when the logical arguement is that his stuff didnt play up to that level and he will have to make adjustements.
No, the logical argument is that 40 innings is a ridiculously small sample size
You’re confusing “logical” with “typical,” when typical human thought process involves rejecting the existence of luck and assuming everything is caused by the conscious control of some being or other.
Dan Haren had roughly a .250 BABIP over his first 100 innings in 2007, and roughly a .350 BABIP over his second 100 innings. Those are samples which are MUCH larger than the one you’re using for Mazzaro, and his BABIP varied by 100 points!
Arguments based on hits are generally retarded, but this one is particularly nonsensical.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
What Paul Thomas said.
I know that a lot of people don’t like the argument that a small sample size pollutes effective analysis, but it is a basic foundation of any statistical analysis. Text book, as it were. If you don’t like that, there’s plenty of math professors around the country you can take that argument up with.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 10, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd like to pop in here and repeat something I said above
Hits given up are not an indicator of pitching talent one way or the other. To assume the pitcher has control over the ball once a hitter makes contact is a judgment that isn’t supported by empirical data. What we do know is that the pitcher has the ability to determine (most of the time) what kind of ball in play it is: ground ball, fly ball, or line drive. Beyond that? Not much.
A lot of folks believe that a pitcher can induce weak contact or strong contact and while it may look like they can because it happens (ball off the end of the bat, busted off the thin part of the bat, pop up, etc) if a pitcher really could control that then there would be pitchers who could never be hit. Ever. Why would you ever throw a pitch that could be hit if you could control it not being hit?
Hits are the result of the batter’s skill, the defense playing behind the pitcher, and luck (bloops, ground balls with “eyes”, high bouncing choppers, etc). The pitcher can determine whether the batter puts it on the ground or in the air or on a line, but after that, it’s to the Baseball Gods (and the spectrum of probabilities) to decide.
So, yeah, hits against the pitcher. Ignore that. Stick to what the pitcher CAN control. Walks, strikeouts, batted ball data, etc.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 9, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
all hits are not created equal…but when you give up that many in AAA, when you have dominated AA, it tells you something…especially since he is a ground ball pitcher and only got 45% GBs in AAA..the obvious conclusion is that his stuff did not translate well initially.
There are certainly some things to look at.
He spent 4 months in AA Midland and 3 months in AAA Sacramento. Sadly, that one month in AAA is only 29.3 innings worth of data. It is going to be extremely hard trying to extrapolate anything meaningful from it.
The most obvious and glaring stat that pops out at me is the increase to a 26% line drive rate (split even more, 37.8% to lefties). The ground ball rate diminishing plus the line drive rate increasing does seem to imply that he left more pitches up and in the middle of the zone. That could mean that he simply lost a feel for his location, especially trying to pitch down in the zone where a ground ball pitcher has the most success.
There is a possibility that he was doing the same thing and the advanced AAA hitters were all over it. His strikeout rate and walk rate remained relatively similar to his AA numbers, after all. Meanwhile the ball in play data changed rapidly, including a much more “normal” looking 9% home run to fly ball ratio.
So what happened? Advanced hitters getting around on his stuff more or just a bad month? It’s only 29 innings. Very hard to make any kind of determination. Obviously, more time at the AAA level is required before we can start making any kind of notable conclusion.
In the meantime, the larger sampling of AA stats should be our main indicator of his progress. He certainly warranted a promotion to AAA, and for a lot of players there’s an adjustment period to consider. Perhaps we should simply be patient and observe.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 9, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Crap.
4 months in Midland and only ONE month in Sacramento. I don’t know why I had the number 3 in my head when I typed that.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 9, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
The ground ball rate diminishing plus the line drive rate increasing does seem to imply that he left more pitches up and in the middle of the zone. That could mean that he simply lost a feel for his location, especially trying to pitch down in the zone where a ground ball pitcher has the most success.
You could say that, or you could say that his stuff just didnt translate very well…maybe his stuff was just alot more hittable in AAA
I am not surprised you folks that want to apply statistics to everything scream small sample size, and I understand it is a small sample size.
But, I know for a fact those numbers are not indictive of top 20 talent, which was the whole point…
Uh ok
You understand that it’s a small sample size…but yet you apparently don’t understand that you shouldn’t make definite judgments based on SSS.
Your high school stats teacher must be disappointed.
"We were s--, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Mar 10, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
actually
buy a freaking clue if you wanna come on here and insult my intelligence.
It is widely accepted that 30 is usually the acceptable minimum sample size in statistics.
Jesus, you are a freaking nerd and cant even be a smart one.
Wow....
I have never seen someone be so wrong so many times in one thread.
First of all, that 30 doesn’t apply here. If we are talking about using a sample size of 30 random selected pitchers, then yes we may be able to make statistical inferences from that sample. 39 innings from ONE pitcher is not enough to make any sort of conclusive assertion.
For example, let’s say Marco Scutaro had a stretch in which he went 10 for 30. He had the minimum of 30 at bats right? Using your logic, YOU would conclude that he’s a .333 hitter since he met your “acceptable minimum”. Yet we all know that he’s not really a .333 hitter because the results are subject to small sample size.
And lastly, next time you decide to pompously flaunt your own “intelligence” and insult and call other people names, at least make sure you’re right….cause that ain’t the case here.
"We were s--, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Mar 11, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
It is widely accepted that 30 is usually the acceptable minimum sample size in statistics.
AHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHA
HAHHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAH
Boy, that was a real knee-slapper. Got any more like it?
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
the most comedic thing
Is that Mazzaro’s WHIP last year was almost identical to Feliz’s was in low A ball – 1.67 to 1.72.
This guy maintains that Feliz is the top pitching prospect in base ball also in another thread.
A more funny comedian is hard to find.
Seriously???
I could care less about this argument, but that WHIP was in 15 IP. That’s far, far more meaningless than the SSS jsmall was talking about. Besides he was also striking out 16+ per 9 IP in the same sample…he just happened to have a little problem with control when he first moved to the Texas organization.
And...
He was talking about getting hit, and Feliz allowed just 13 hits in those 15 IP. There’s nothing contradictory in those 2 opinions. Nice try though, let other people attack his credibility and try and snipe in with a quick insult to his intelligence…man you almost had him good.
13 hits with 12 walks
means he was pretty hittable when he was around the strike zone. K rate is great and he has improved his control tremendously.
Not disagreeing on the prospect status, only saying that just looking at a small sample size does not say very much without knowing anything about the conditions.
Which you would have seen if you were not so darn sensitive about your precious Feliz.
My precious Feliz???
Where the hell did you get that? If anything I’m lower on Feliz than most.
You attempted to make someone else look dumb by pointing out how he is high on Feliz (who had a high WHIP in 15 IP), but doesn’t like Mazzaro because he gave up 49 hits in ~34 IP. That doesn’t make him look dumb as the two are entirely unrelated. Feliz was dominating the hitters he faced (as evidenced by the high k rate and impressive .228 BAA), while batters had little trouble hitting Mazzaro (.328 BAA). The sample size you were using was also twice as small.
As I said I’m not interested in this argument about whether Mazzaro’s AAA numbers are meaningful. I don’t think they’re meaningless, but I also probably don’t think they’re as important as jsmall. My point was you attempt to insult was ill conceived and ineffective.
To be a little more precise...
Feliz’s numbers point to a lack of control over ace quality stuff. Mazzaro’s numbers on the other hand seem to point to good control over far less impressive stuff. Jsmall’s point was that the numbers call into question Mazzaro’s stuff. It’s far easier for a young pitcher to improve his control than it is for him to improve his stuff, and as you mentioned, Feliz proved this past year that he had improved his control. Besides those questions about Feliz’s control were a big part of the reason he barely cracked the top 100 last year. In fact, he was ranked #93 and your complaining about Mazzaro being #97.
I guess I’m just failing to see the point of your comparison.
One thing doesn't equal the other.
I am not surprised you folks that want to apply statistics to everything scream small sample size, and I understand it is a small sample size.
Being “not surprised” doesn’t mean you understand and accept the reasons behind statisticians believing a small sample size will screw up your analysis. Your next line seems to indicate that you don’t.
But, I know for a fact those numbers are not indictive of top 20 talent, which was the whole point…
No. Your opinion is that those numbers are not indicative of top 20 talent.
Look, you’re arguing with someone who doesn’t give a crap if Mazzaro is ranked 5th, 40th, or not at all. My problem has been with the process of analysis that some folks have been taking here. Yours, in particular, has not been sound.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 10, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
neither do i
i dont care about his rank either…but top 20 prospects dont give up that many hits during ANY 30 innings stretch. guys with top 20 stuff just arent that easy to hit….you can scream about small sample size all you want, but mix in a little common sense as well.
Wrong still
CC Sabathia gave up 50 hits and had a 7.31 ERA in his first 38 innings last year — even elite players can have extremely bad stretches over that sort of sample size.
thats not what I said
“A TOP 20 PROSPECT” wont get hit around like that
was CC a prospect last year?? I must have missed that
If the top pitcher in the majors could do it and it doesnt mean anything
it stand to reason a top prospect could do it and it doesnt mean anything.
Its just 30 innings. You cant take it as a conclusive referendum on whether the guy is a top prospect or will be a success
Hmm..
but top 20 prospects dont give up that many hits during ANY 30 innings stretch
Beware blanket statements. You didn’t like the Brett Anderson comment above because he wasn’t a top prospect in A ball, but he was / is a top prospect in 2008 and here’s an interesting stretch:
April – May: 50IP, 53 hits.
Rick Porcello May-June: 51.7 IP, 57 hits.
Chris Tillman June-July: 48.3 IP, 54 hits.
Every pitcher is going to go through a stretch where more balls find holes in the defense. I don’t care who the hell you are, it’s going to happen.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 11, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
listen
you cant put a statistic on what i am saying..i know this through experience and years of watching guys who have dominating stuff (like a top 20 prospect does): guys with elite stuff just do not struggle like that. sure bad, stretches, but 49 hits in 30 innings is getting shelled.
There stuff is just not hittable enough for the competition level they are on. maybe that dosent make sense because you have nnot been able to see hundreds of innings from elite level talent.
Oh Christ.
We’re done here. You’ve pulled the “holier then thou” card. I’m not going to debate with someone who can’t accept rational logic and has to put up a pompous exterior in the place of reasoning.
When an ace quality, Cy Young candidate has patches of struggles and you don’t accept it has any merit to the conversation, you have to be seriously deluded by your own arrogance.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 11, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I saw that long ago
It is why I decided to respond to the deluded individual with a ‘.’
the good news is
that Mazzaro will be pitching tomorrow and we will see if he does well. If he does poorly, then I imagine that this thread will not live long. If he continues to do well, then there will be room for more discussion.
Either way, it wasn’t bad for a first thread.
Again, I have no care in the world about
Mazzaro. Scouts are really good at taking smaller snippets of visual evidence and forming sound opinions. Statisticians need more then that.
In light of that, don’t put too much weight into a handful of starts here. Give it more time.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 12, 2009 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Mazzaro's line so far this spring
8IP, 7H, 0R, 1BB, 8 K’s
Hey
More power to him. Regression to the mean is always a possibility, though, so be careful with your enthusiasm.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 12, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course, the extension of this logic
is to hope that he starts off terrible in order for him to pitch better later?
I am sure he will have his off days and as I said, I am not really a great fan of his in particular.
I just noticed a huge discrepency in valuation at Minor League Ball of clearly a top tier talent.
I am sure he will have many many bad days ahead of him. However, if he stays healthy, there should be a lot of good ones too.
the one that had me rolling
was when the guy said that 30 was an acceptable sample size in statistics.
Not even 30 random samples??? Just 30!! This guy knows even less about statistics than me, if that is possible.
Mazzaro
Forgetting about the small sample size issue for one minute, Mazzaro was also very unlucky in his short time in AAA. In 33.2 innings he may have had 6.15 era and 49 hits allowed but he had an very high BABIP of .404 and his FIP was 4.00 which is actually pretty good for a 21 year old in his first taste of AAA.
+1
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by OldProspects on Mar 13, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
.404 BABIP off a 26% line drive rate is only
Slightly unlucky.
The whole thing reeks of minor fluctuations polluting the results because there isn’t a large enough data pool to weed them out. With him putting up similar peripherals to his AA numbers (walks and strikeouts, anyway) there isn’t any particular reason we should suddenly give this sequence of results more weight then the rest of the sample.
Toss it out, ignore it, move on. The A’s are still high on him, and that’s really all that needs to be said about his AAA numbers.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 13, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
30 IP doesnt show us anything at all
You could find lots of great pitchers and pitching prospects who went through 30 IP stretches that were that bad.
Correct.
The larger sample should always be given more weight over the smaller sample. That’s just basic statistical analysis. For now, focus on the AA numbers (larger sample) as one set and the AAA numbers as a separate set that’s too small to analyze effectively.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 10, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Or just use the combined stats...
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
I don't generally like that.
You could do that, and a lot of people do, and honestly I don’t think it’s going to be a detriment to what you’re trying to do.
My problem with it is that not all things are equal in the minor leagues. A ball numbers certainly shouldn’t be combined with AAA numbers, as the differences in league strength are too great. AA and AAA aren’t so bad, in this example, but I wouldn’t take AAA stats and combine them with Major League stats either.
The problem with doing it my way is it creates a ton of small samples (going back to the Chris Davis argument thread). But at least you’re not equating one thing to another and opening up the potential for errors.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 10, 2009 4:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Shrug
The pertinent question is whether combining them or looking at them separately is more likely to give you an accurate read on a player’s skill level. I postulate that the combined line is a better measurement.
Just seeing the rate-stat numbers (like “6.50” in the ERA column) is prejudicial— even if you are aware of the SSS problem. To make a legal analogy, even if the jury is instructed not to consider the testimony, it’s still going to have an impact. To make a lolcats analogy,

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
I get your point about combination numbers
But I disagree with the assertion of permanent prejudice. While, certainly, there are going to be thickheaded morons out there who wont accept another point of view, it is our duty as analysts to give them something else to think about.
After all, I’m sure there was more then one guy who thought Josh Hamilton was a washed up drug addict bust. Perception can change in the light of new or better information and evidence.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 11, 2009 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Methinks you overestimate the flexibility of the human psyche
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
I quote Agent K
“A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.”
I believe you can always rationally get through to someone when you use sound unquestionable logic. There’s only so many times a person can deny fact before they must come to grips with it and have an epiphany.
Groups of people is tougher, for sure. However, we also are a people that either leads or follows. Those that follow can be swayed by the influence of one. As long as that one’s influence is based on good process, then change can happen.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 12, 2009 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions
i think theyre equal because theyre different cases
Mazzaro has more upside, but is more likely to bust
Simmons is as sure as a bet as you’ll find to be a solid 3/4 starter
"Sometimes Joe (morgan) doesn't like facts to get in the way of his opinions."- billy beane
"That was a great pick...if this was 2002" Me, to guy who selected Barry Zito in a fantasy draft
www.27ClubPeak.blogspot.com
by harendaman365 on Mar 9, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
You say one can be a 2/3 guy and the other can be Joe Blanton (which is a fantastic comp)..
But then you say they’re not even prospects? WTF?
Never, Never, NEVER give up
I think he meant even as equal
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
No, no, no
I’m not saying Simmons will be a bad player, I think he’ll be a Joe Blanton without the nasty curve which should be good for a #4/5 innings-eater type starter. What I’m saying is you can’t really compare Simmons to Mazzaro because expectations for each are so different.
You also misunderstood me. I never said that they weren’t prospects, just that you can’t really compare the two. They will both likely be in Oakland by the end of the year , so they are both prospects.
Sometimes life will strike you out on a curve ball and the only choice you have is to flip off the umpire and walk to first base anyway.
by Threepwood XX on Mar 8, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
law likes anderson at least
not a fan of ross/hunter…of course all is based one 1 game
might prefer Brett Anderson to Dan Haren by the end of this year.
Anderson showing his value to A’s
Sunday, March 8, 2009
Oakland’s trade of Dan Haren looked at the time like a bid for quantity over quality, but the rapid progression of left-hander Brett Anderson has changed that.
He’s a quick worker with an aggressive approach and a clean delivery that he repeats well. Anderson only has six starts above A-ball, but he’s never been challenged in pro ball, and both his stuff and polish are big-league ready.
Keith Law's scouting on Mazarro:
"Oakland rookie right-hander Vin Mazzaro reportedly has been clocked at up to 96 mph with sink while throwing primarily fastballs, but Tuesday, he worked on off-speed stuff. He was not impressive. His fastball was 90-94 with some sink and life, but his changeup was way too hard at 87-88, and his mid-80s slider had a long, hard, horizontal break that took it well out of the strike zone. Neither pitch was effective at missing bats, which has been a problem for Mazzaro since he signed.
Mazzaro still is an interesting prospect, but there’s no way the stuff and command he brought Tuesday could work in the big leagues right now; I assume he’ll be sent over to minor league camp shortly to continue working on his secondary pitches."
Yeahhhhh really sounds like top 20 prospect stuff to me!!!
7 SEVEN earned runs in 2 innings
Does this outing mean as much or less as his earlier outings? He is a top 20 prospect, isn’t he?

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