Most crippling contracts in baseball?
by ScottAZ on Mar 20, 2009 10:38 AM EDT
187 comments
My brother and I got into a discussion last night over who had the most crippling contracts in the game today. Not refering to guys like CC Sabathia, because even if he doesn't pan out the Yankees have enough resources to burn up his 7 year $161 mil deal. I am talking about teams that are affected by the bad economy and have guys that are putting a huge strain on resources while providing little on the field. Being here in Arizona, we hand the dubious honor to Eric Byrnes. Byrnes being a 32 year old career journey man/ 4th OFer that cashed in on a big 2007 season and is currently fleecing the Dbacks for $11mil per year. Byrnes not only raises the ire of Dbacks fans because he is our highest paid position player and sucks, but also because every time I see him I think he is the sole reason Orlando Hudson and Randy Johnson are not on the team this year. Further more, Curt Schilling made statements back in the winter saying that he wanted to be reunited with the Dbacks and Randy Johnson to finish out his career. Schilling may never pitch again, but if he does and he still has something left in the tank and he goes somewhere like Philadelphia because the Dbacks either don't have the money or don't have Randy Johnson, it will give me yet another reason to boo the shit out of Byrnes every time he bats.
Andruw Jones may have received attention before being released, but I'm not sure how his $18mil/per affected the Dodgers budget.
Who else should be nominated?
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Dontrelle Willis
Game over.
The 2008 Rogelio Moret League Fantasy Baseball Champions!
by The Congo Hammer on Mar 20, 2009 10:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Even though Miggy is still tearing it up, gotta say the Tigers are going to regrret dealing Miller and Maybin for Willis and Miggy.
by Summa Slugga on Mar 20, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um
No. They have one of the top five hitters in baseball. Believe me, that lineup needs that.
by Daniel Plainview on Mar 20, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
trade
it was extending dontrelle to 3 years, $29 million (to a guy who sucks, honestly) that was the bad move. the trade was a good move. the tigers did receive the guy who led the american league in homeruns last year at age 25.
by richieabernathy on Mar 20, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
A contender trading young cheap high-upside bats for a big impact bat is not a bad move, if it helped them win a championship no one would complain. Willis was the bonehead move, not Miggy.
The 2008 Rogelio Moret League Fantasy Baseball Champions!
by The Congo Hammer on Mar 20, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
trade as a whole
was a bad move!!!!The fact that they got a top player in miggy doesnt dismiss the fact that they traded two potential Stars!!!! Both Maybin and Miller are still sooooo freakin young!!!
by Summa Slugga on Mar 20, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Miggy's not?
He’s what, 26? And he’s already a Hall of Fame caliber bat… mind you, he needs to stay away from the buffet line, but he’s got one of the best bats in the game.
by demondeaconsbaseball on Mar 20, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, you are right summa
Trading for possible the most productive 24 year old in all of baseball, a player coming off 4 years of 112 rbi or better, 4 years of 26, 33,33,34 homers, 3 years of on base % of .385, .430, .401. A player who would end up leading the american league in homers in his first season as a 25 year old and have his best homer and rbi (127) seasons to date.
Imagine trading two guys who MAY be productive major leaguers for cabrera.
I just don’t understand the tigers thinking!
by tuna411 on Mar 20, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lol
Nice hint of sarcasm there tuna411….look, Miggy is elite, nobody can doubt that. Sometimes we need to separate fantasy and real life.
This post is about crippling contracts…..bottom line is, Florida had to make that deal in order to at least get something in return for Miggy. Time will tell whether or not it pans ut for them. Miggy would have crippled Florida more than anything, so the trade had to be made from their end. Willis would have demanded money on the open market as well, so Detroit was the unlucky one to get stuck with him.
Bottom line, franchises with money will always have the advantage because they can afford to miscalculate a players potential more often than not.
by jepmotors on Mar 20, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again
This trade was invloving Dontrelle Willis too!!!!!! Stop harping on Miggy!!!
The fact is Dontrelle’s contract is horific and he stinks. The tigers have that fat ass contract on their hands, and as Jepmotors said this post was about crippling contracts.
If you look at this deal NOT from a fantasy percpective you have got to be nuts to think the Marlins did not win this deal. They unloaded to LARGE contracts, one of them who is terrible and they got back two young studs, one of them who was just legal enough to buy alcohol and can be a 20/20 guy as soon as this year.
by Summa Slugga on Mar 20, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
two young studs
i’m not doubting their talent, but the reality is:
Andrew Miller 2008: 6-10, 5.87 ERA, 1.64 WHIP.
Cameron Maybin 2008: .831 OPS in Double-A and struck out 31.8% of his plate appearances.
Oh, they’re definitely young. But studs? Eh.
Now Miguel Cabrera leading the AL in homeruns at age 25? Young AND stud.
by richieabernathy on Mar 20, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miggy
in his firstyear in the league hit the following:
12HR, 68RBI and hit .268 with a .793 OPS, in 314 AB’s and struck out 26% of the time. That nothing to write hom about. Maybin hashad a quarter of that amount of Ab’s yet. Give maybin a 400 Ab’s and I gaurentee you he has better numbers then Miggy’s first year!!!
by Summa Slugga on Mar 20, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he sure did
AS A TWENTY YEAR OLD!!!
and by the way… not to be grammar police, but then isn’t than and vice versa. also, G-U-A-R-A-N-T-E-E.
by richieabernathy on Mar 20, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
spelling
sorry buddy, i am typing fast and I didnt think this was a spelling test. but thank you Mr. Abernathy….Hope I get an “A” this semester.
Oh and btw, Maybin is only 21 himself.
by Summa Slugga on Mar 20, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
math
Apparently you’re no good in that subject, either. Look again and you’ll see Maybin’s birthday is 4/4/87, meaning that 2009 will be his 22-year-old season.
by richieabernathy on Mar 20, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh boy
well in that case Miggy’s birthday is April 18,1983, that would make him almost 26 (not 20 like you said)….Oh wait we are talking about their MLB first season!!! Can you tell me how old Maybin was when he took his first MLB swing??? Same age as Miguel Cabrera!!
by Summa Slugga on Mar 20, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I call 'em like I see 'em
and you, my friend, aren’t very smart.
by richieabernathy on Mar 20, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great way to end a converstation when you realize you have been wrong.
Bottom line is that Miggy RIGHT NOW is far away better than Maybin (no discussion). BUT 4 years from now, when Maybin will be 26, you cant tell me that you dont think he will be a top 10 OF! Additionally, Andrew Miller has the stuff to be a front line starter in a couple of years.
So all I am/was saying is that Miguel Cabrera is not bringing a World Series to Detroit anytime soon. If you put Maybin and Miller back in Detroit, together with Porcello i think that is a solid 3 guys to build a team around.
I cant say Detroit would like a millugan on the deal BUT if you think about it for a second and look at the deal NOT from a fantasy perspective, you will see its a bad deal for Detroit.
THIS IS MY HUMBLE OPINION!!!!!!
by Summa Slugga on Mar 20, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
top ten outfielder
No, I don’t think Cameron Maybin will be a top ten outfielder in the Major Leagues in 2013, his age 26 season. I’ve honestly (humble opinion) never been THAT high on Maybin. Top ten? No way. Justin Upton will be in his prime by then. Grady Sizemore may be continuing to be very good. Also, Jason Heyward will be in the Show by then.
by richieabernathy on Mar 20, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if Maybin is a top 10 OF
and gets traded for a top prospect, you’ll be ranting about how bad of a deal that was.
You overvalue prospects. It is what it is.
by Locke000 on Mar 20, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn't wrong
He said Miggy was 20 during his rookie season, not right now.
Also, you compared the numbers of a 20 year old in the majors to a 21 year old in AA. And as it turns out, the numbers aren’t that far apart. Nice argument.
me so cool
by Humongo on Mar 23, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s always someone out there who gets infatuated with prospects, I guess.
Any GM in the league who wouldn’t give up Maybin and Miller for Cabrera straight up is insane. And taking on Willis? It’s only money.
It was win-win only because the Marlins couldn’t have kept Miggy, so getting something back for him was great. But from a baseball standpoint, they lost this deal.
by Locke000 on Mar 20, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
.....
Are you serious?
M-Cab is one of the half dozen or so most valuable commodities in MLB.
Miller is no certainty to work out, and Maybin’s ceiling is worse than M-Cab is right now. And M-Cab is 25!!!
I’d like to invite you to join my dynasty leagues, please.
by nivarsity on Mar 20, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeeezuz
we are not talking about fantasy baseball!!!!!!
We are talking about real life, where salaries, defense etc is teken into account.
by Summa Slugga on Mar 20, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not either
I’m pointing out that you overvalue prospects.
I like Maybin, but Miller is a huge wild card. Cabrera is a superstar.
It would take them both becoming impact players for the trade to even be close to a bad one for Detroit, and that is far from certain.
by nivarsity on Mar 20, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was a 2.9 WAR player last year and was overpaid by ~$2 million dollars.
He’s due for some regression, but if the Tigers had know Cabrera was going to struggle that much they probably wouldn’t have traded Maybin for Cabrera straight up. Throw in the fact that they basically swapped Miller for Willis and there’s no way the Tigers won that trade.
by acblue on Mar 20, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait...
we are not talking about fantasy baseball!!!!!!
We are talking about real life, where salaries, defense etc is teken into account.
So when salaries and defense matter more… that’s where Miggy shines…?
by alskor on Mar 20, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
????
not really sure what you mean, but I was saying that since salary and defense is taken into account that is why Miggy is not as valuable as in fantasy baseball.
Miggy is a top 10 pick in any fantasy draft right now but if you would do a real life draft where anyone can be drafted, I highly doubt miggy would go in the top 10.
by Summa Slugga on Mar 20, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're nuts
Real life draft top ten?
Pujols
Wright
Miggy
Han-Ram
Santana
A-Rod
Sabathia
Peavy
Lincecum
in some order.
Lincecum, Peavy, Santana and Sabathia because a true ace at the top of the rotation is a beautiful and rare thing. Wright, Han-Ram, A-Rod and Sizemore because they are elite all-around players at cornerstone positions.
And Pujols and Cabrera because they are the best pure hitters in baseball and are both young Hall of Famers to-be.
Sizemore
by Locke000 on Mar 20, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the younger cheaper under control guys
would go first.
by groundingout on Mar 23, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To follow up a bit
Superstars are not replaceable.
Maybin could end up being very good, and Miller could be solid, and they would still not be as good as M-Cab.
Miller especially is a total wild card right now. Maybin’s ceiling appears to be an Eric Davis type, which while excellent is not as good as Cabrera.
It’s going to take them both reaching their ceilings and staying there a while for that trade to be a bad one for Detroit.
by nivarsity on Mar 20, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah. Cabrera > Miller/Maybin
And Granderson > Maybin, too.
I’m not big on Maybin.
by thejd44 on Mar 20, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
any bad contract discussion
has to start with Barry Zito. He couldn’t get me out.
by richieabernathy on Mar 20, 2009 10:45 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
He's in no way worth his salary
But there’s no way he’s as bad as he was last year. His FIP has been basically the same for the past 4 years – he hasn’t gotten worse, just unluckier. He’s simply a decent pitcher who managed to still do terrifically in Oakland despite some pretty mediocre stats
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by OldProspects on Mar 20, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Continues a trend
The Rowand deal doesn’t look like it’ll be regarded as a “good signing” in another year or two. But, he was a knee-jerk reaction after not getting Juan Pierre or Gary Matthews, which were busts anyway.
Benitez and Roberts sucked too.
"Well, um, actually a pretty nice little Saturday, we're going to go to Home Depot. Yeah, buy some wallpaper, maybe get some flooring, stuff like that. Maybe Bed, Bath, & Beyond, I don't know, I don't know if we'll have enough time."
by Azantor on Mar 20, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
That contract looked insanely stupid from the moment it was announced but has turned out even worse. It was obvious to any A’s fan that Zito was in decline, but obviously the Giants don’t pay attention to what is going on across the bay.
by DeJay on Mar 29, 2009 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Off the top of my head
Vernon Wells with Toronto- Seven year 126 million dollar deal. Comes out to 18 per through 2014.
Toronto has a pretty good core, and that contract will most likely keep them from being able to add much at the major league level.
by Birdfan01 on Mar 20, 2009 10:47 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
In fairness
That deal looked perfectly fine at the time. So I’m willing to cut the Jays slack there.
The worst contracts to me are the ones that were terrible decisions then and remain indefensible now.
by nivarsity on Mar 20, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vernon was overrated at the time of the deal
C’mon, he’d had two really good years, has a career OBP right around .330 and really good but declining defense. Offensively he’s never really been much more than a 5th or 6th hitter in a real lineup. I think he tends to get overrated offensively because he’s decent and he has such good defense.
I’m willing to cut the Jays some slack given the PR hit they would have taken had he walked, and the fact that they likely have to overpay to attract players with their location and division. But it still wasn’t that good of a deal.
by Ophidian on Mar 20, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree that he's overrated
But he was young and very solid. He was overrated then, but probably underrated now. And while the number is high, no one could have predicted MLB’s financial climate taking the hit it did.
Bad contract, definitely. Terrible one, I’d say no.
by nivarsity on Mar 20, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's certainly not one of the worst contracts in the game
But the criteria of this thread, to my understanding, was the overall effect on the franchise. The Jays have limited resources and to have 18 mil tied to Wells hurts their ability to compete much more than contracts like Zito’s to the Giants.
by Birdfan01 on Mar 21, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zito, Wells, Helton, Hafner
In terms of crippling effect, I’d go with Helton still. He’s been good, but they just have no roster flexibility due to his contract.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 20, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gary Mathews
Gary Matthews Jr. of
5 years/$50M
Although the Angels can “afford” having a crappy player at such a high salary.
by Summa Slugga on Mar 20, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Right
Not in love with the word “crippling” framing this. You immediately are letting the Sox, Yanks, Angels, Mets, etc… off the hook.
by alskor on Mar 20, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i see your point.
but it’s a reality. small/medium market teams can’t afford to make mistakes – or, at a minimum, the spectacular type mistakes – that the large market teams can.
by larry on Mar 20, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the Rangers got
Michael Main & Neil Ramirez with those picks.
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
by Kinslerhomer on Mar 20, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair...
Only one of those picks came from LAA and the other one was a supplemental pick. If the Angles didn’t sign Mathews they would have only gotten one of those picks back, so it is:
GMJr for a boatload of money and a first round draft pick.
Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom
by designatedforassignment on Mar 21, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I know.
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
by Kinslerhomer on Mar 21, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carlos Silva
Carlos Silva rhp
4 years/$48M
$12M per year for a #4 or #5 starter should def. rank up at the top
by Summa Slugga on Mar 20, 2009 10:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How
he got that money is a mystery to me. Yuk
Another guy the Twins were wise to let walk
by smoooooth on Mar 20, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is?
Bill Bavasi was just that bad. He really was. They had no friggin clue what they were doing in that front office and it showed all over the place. They didnt do their homework. They just preferred to just wing it and eyeball player values. Complete and total incompetence.
by alskor on Mar 20, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It alone is not crippling to the Mariners, though.
If they had that money, they could have done more. But you could have said the same thing for Washburn, Batista, and Jojima’s contracts.
The Mariners problem is that they gave out TOO much stupid money to TOO many people. Silva alone didn’t cripple a team with a $110+ million dollar payroll in 2008.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 20, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tigers
Combination of Dontrelle Willis, Nate Robertson, Brandon Inge, Gary Sheffield, Carlos Guillen and Jeremy Bonderman.
Bondo, Guillen and maybe Sheff have some upside- the rest are money sinks.
by demondeaconsbaseball on Mar 20, 2009 11:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
mike hampton
8 years 121mil i believe. Check out the link below. Largest sports contracts and Hampton is ranked at 24th. Last year was the final year of his contract…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_sports_contracts
by kershaw_equals_stud on Mar 20, 2009 11:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If we're talking all-time
Then there’s no doubt in my mind that the most crippling contract to a single team ever was Mike Sweeney’s contract with the Royals. The couldn’t do anything for years because of that immovable beast. At least the Braves were able to spend around Hampton.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 20, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Braves weren't paying most of it. The Rockies ate a lot of that.
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Mar 20, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After he was traded
the pay split over the remaining life of the contract was:
Colorado: 49 million
Atlanta: 48.5
Florida: 23.5
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Mar 20, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so he was crippling 3 franchises....we've got a winner
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Mar 20, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
yeah, when you absolutely suck and are a total bitch and are dragging down three teams’ payrolls, you are the winner of the most crippling contract in baseball. congratulations, mike. i’m sure your father is proud.
by richieabernathy on Mar 20, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know he is, his son has made 135 million dollars playing baseball.
It’s not his fault someone gave him the contract. It’s the teams fault.
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Mar 20, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or NOT playing baseball as it were...
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Mar 21, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What About....
Michael Young, Adrian Beltre, Francisco Cordero…..
by jepmotors on Mar 20, 2009 11:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Beltre
earns his money. He’s such an underrated player. He’s the more than likely the best defensive third baseman on earth.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/can-we-please-stop-undervaluing-adrian-beltre
by richieabernathy on Mar 20, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair Point!
I take back Beltre. But his contract still hurts Seattle.
by jepmotors on Mar 20, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for taking it back
and you’re right; his contract still wasn’t in Seattle’s best interest.
by richieabernathy on Mar 20, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he earns his money, how was it not in their best interest?
I’ve heard this argument a ton and I still don’t understand.
by acblue on Mar 20, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it doesn't.
$12 million really isn’t that much relative to what free agents have been getting on the market the past 4 years. In a world where Juan Pierre and Gary Matthews make $10 million, to put Beltre’s name anywhere in this discussion is ridiculous. Beltre is a 3-5 win player who gets paid like a 3-win player. The Mariners have paid him less money per win than the average free agent contract
over the duration of his contract. How the hell does that hurt the Mariners?
by slamcactus on Mar 20, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not crippling
those teams spend a ton of money
by jsmall404 on Mar 20, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to Mention....
Miguel Tejada, Brian Giles
by jepmotors on Mar 20, 2009 11:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"Crippling."
To Cripple a team, a contract has to seriously hurt their flexibility to make good moves. Tejada’s contract was never even 15% of his team’s payroll, and he more than earned his deal each of the first 3 years. Now that he’s an Astro, the contract is about 14% of team’s payroll, and it expires after this year. That’s a bad contract, but at worst it hurts flexibility for one more season. Nowhere near the most crippling in baseball.
by slamcactus on Mar 20, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brian Giles?
Let me just say I strongly disagree.
by rglass44 on Mar 25, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya know
I noticed that even teams that spend alot of money…ala Washington, Seattle, Texas etc….the guys they have, and the contracts they have, probably turn away some of the better, bigger name free agents out there because they know that even though they can get alot of money, they still wont have a chance of winning a title. I mean what was the incentive for Tex to sign with Washington or Baltimore? Ya, he would get some nice money, but the rest of the money Washington, Seattle and Texas, and teams like that spend, is on crappy washed up players like Kevin Millwood, Vicente Padilla….
As long as you have teams throwing away money on guys like Byrnes and the others mentioned in this post, parity in baseball will be hard to come by.
by jepmotors on Mar 20, 2009 12:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Luis Castillo
Yeah, the mets are fine even with him – but that was a contract they desparately wanted to be out from under.
by Locke000 on Mar 20, 2009 12:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good Question
I’m looking at bad, rather than crippling, contracts. For example, Kyle Farnsworth’s deal may be crippling to KC but not to Boston or the Yankees. Therefore, in no partciular order, my top 5 bad contracts:
Helton – 9/$141.5M
Matthews – 5/$50M
Zito – 7/$126M
Schmidt – 3/$47M
M. Young – 5/$80M
by mg050369 on Mar 20, 2009 1:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Helton might be worth it
Ditto with Young
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 21, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Michael Young
If he is on this list, you got to put Derek Jeter on here. Young puts up pretty simliar numbers to jeter and the Rangers have money too, albeit not nearly the same as the Yankees.
by Summa Slugga on Mar 20, 2009 1:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They both should be.
Although Jeter is probably the worst PR situation in baseball, where the Yankees just can’t get away with not keeping him.
by aap212 on Mar 20, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why...
on earth would you put Jeter up there as a “crippling” contract? New York has clearly had enough resources to make big deals notwithstanding his contract. Jeter gets overrated by Yankees fans to be sure, but he’s a much, much better player than Michael Young.
Young doesn’t put up anywhere near Jeter’s numbers. He had one offensive season (2005) that compares with what Jeter’s done on a yearly basis. Over the past 6 years, Jeter’s been worth 165 batting runs above a league average hitter compared with Michael Young’s 44 runs above average. Neither were defensive wizards, but the best defensive metric out there (UZR) has Jeter at about 35 runs better than Young with the glove during that time, too.
On WAR values, in Michael Young’s single best year (again, 2005) he was worth 3.7 wins above replacement. That’s Jeter’s worst total in the past 6 years. His totals in reverse order (2008-2002): 3.7, 3.7, 6.4, 4.5, 5.0, 4.2, 5.5.
Jeter isn’t the best player alive, but he’s a damn good player, and Michael Young isn’t in his class.
More importantly, Jeter’s contract doesn’t “cripple” the Yankees in any way. It overpays him, but “crippling” means that a contract hurts a team’s ability to make future moves. The Yankees have over a half a billion dollars committed to guys on the roster not named Jeter, and they’ve signed all of them since Jeter inked his deal in 2001.
by slamcactus on Mar 20, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAR values
Where can I find other WAR values?
by 90210 on Mar 22, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RE: JETER
Even if his is not the most crippling contract, he’s certainly the most crippling player, since his reputation as a “baseball diety” will untimately CRIPPLE the Yenkees ability to dispose of him when the time arrives—a time that is closer than New Yorkers will ever care to admit.
If I had to assign Jeter a WWE name, it would be Captain Crippler.
by damianschaab on Mar 26, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I was just thinking that as I was reading rhe replies. It’s not exactly a “crippling” contract (which many here are content with just naming bad contracts, which we have done on this site many times. The original question was about crippling contracts), but it does hurt the team more than most other bad contracts. Since he is being paid so much, they feel compelled to play him to try to get some of their money’s worth. But all that would do would take at bats from Ethier, Kemp, or Man-Ram (most likely Ethier). I think that hurts the team quite a bit.
Zito, while grossly overpaid still fills a role with that team. He is a great inning eater, and a solid back of the rotation arm now. Give me a #5 SP who guarantees me 200+ innings a year with a 4.8-5.2 ERA and I will take it. Of course I don’t want to pay them what Zito is making, but that contract is not crippling. Helton is in the same boat. Grossly overpaid, but he is still prooductive. It does hurt the Rockies more than a lot of the contracts being mentioned though since they are rarely contenders in the free agent market now because of him (and organizational philosophy). Gary Matthews I don’t feel is all that crippling to the team. It is a bad contract though. Jeter, while overpaid for his production, probably makes the Yankees money with his combination of production and fan appeal.
Luis Castillo I think was a fine contract, he just had one bad season, which unfortunately was in the first year of the contract. I see him bouncing back and having a very solid year this season. Michael Young, Adrian Beltre are both fine for their contracts. Maybe slightly overpaid, but it’s in no way crippling. Dontrelle Willis is obviously overpaid, and that is almost dead money in the pot right now, but Detroit is a spender now, and I don’t think it is crippling them right now.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on Mar 20, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Byrnes
I wouldn’t boo the shit out of him. He got hurt. His contract may be bad for the franchise, but he played hard and had a great year. Boo the gm, not Byrnes.
by wobatus on Mar 20, 2009 3:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's pretty funny!
This may or may not be fact, but what I’ve heard is Josh Byrnes hands were tied by his owner who basically made him resign Eric. That move also essentially meant he had to trade Carlos Quentin because there was no room for him with J-Up and Chris Young entrenched in the OF.
Tools Whore
by Tyler on Mar 20, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
that was my impression as well.
Josh Byrnes is a great GM, regardless
by alskor on Mar 20, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was Moorad, by most accounts
And I think Moorad should have to take him to San Diego with him. Imagine if that team’s outfield was Young, Upton, and Quentin.
by aap212 on Mar 21, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luis castillo
I know, Mets. Supposedly deep pockets. Except word is the Wilpons got majorly damaged in the Madoff ponzi.
Castillo contract may have kept them from bidding on Orlando Hudson, and also prevent a bid on Pedro Martinez. As much as a gamble as he is, I’d take it. Certainly preferable to the attempts at a 5th starter they are making: Livan, Freddy Garcia, Redding. Niese was just sent down.
by wobatus on Mar 20, 2009 3:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Completely disagree on this one
Yeah, it’s a bad contract, but it’s far from crippling. I don’t think the Mets would have spent much this winter one way or another, because of the fear that the economy will wreck sales of their massively overpriced tickets.
And as for Martinez, They don’t want to pay Pedro because they’re not looking to overspend on a guy who will end up taxing their bullpen, so I’d rather take Livan and his 2 billion innings per year at a discount than Pedro at above market cost.
by JayWise on Mar 20, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worst vs. Most Crippling
There’s a difference between “worst” contract and “most crippling” that hinges on the context of the team’s payroll.
For Most crippling, I’ll go with Jose Guillen, who takes up over 20% of his team’s payroll and performed at replacement level last year. Vernon Wells gets #2. He’s a decent player, but he’s had disappointing seasons for 2 years running, he’s 30, and he’ll be paid $21 million per season during his age 32-35 seasons on a team that really can’t afford bad contracts if they want to compete in their division.
For worst contract, Barry Zito is the obvious choice.
I vote Torii Hunter for #2. His defensive performance is lightyears behind his defensive reputation. He was worth 2.3 WAR last year, and there’s little reason to believe he’ll be any better over the next 4. The Angels can look forward to paying a league average player in decline $18million for each of the next 4 seasons. Ouch.
by slamcactus on Mar 20, 2009 4:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Zito
Second isnt close
Those harbinger make me smile more than the fracture of Manny on the teammate.
Get important hitting.
by CB30 on Mar 20, 2009 6:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Carlos Lee, Houston
Likely on the steep decline phase of his career, a bad defender, and 18.5 million per year on a team that had a total payroll of under 90 million last year (that’s over 1/5 for you math geniuses out there).
by JayWise on Mar 20, 2009 9:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Um
Dude had a .937 OPS last year. So if by “steep decline phase” you meant “playing better than he ever has before,” then well done. Right now, the math geniuses are laughing.
by mrkupe on Mar 21, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
mrkupe once again proves
that half of the commenters on this site don’t actually read. I never said that he was bad last year (in which he only made 12-13 anyway). I said that he was in the phase of his career where most people expect a significant drop-off.
And as for the Math Geeks? Check baseball-reference.com and their top five “similar batters through age 32.” (Lee turns 33 this year). Keep in mind that he has 4 more years left on his contract.
1) George Bell – in the season in which he turned 32 he was OPS+ at 117. The following season he was an OPS+ of 99
2) Shawn Green – His OPS+ was 114 that season, and dropped off to a 95 the following season.
4) Raul Mondesi – 114 in the age 32 season, 79 in the 33 season.
5) Greg Luzinski – 129 in his 33 season, 89 in his 34 season, out of baseball the next year.
by JayWise on Mar 21, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tough to be owned by somebody...
who can’t count to five.
by DrunkIrish on Mar 21, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dear god man, you too?
“And as for the Math Geeks? Check baseball-reference.com and their top five "similar batters through age 32." (Lee turns 33 this year). Keep in mind that he has 4 more years left on his contract.”
Roughly translated this means “go to baseball-reference and investigated their top five” rather than “i will reprint the entire top five here to save you time.” Maybe you need help counting to reading comprehension? (Did you see what I did there? I don’t literally think that reading comprehension is a counting skill.)
by JayWise on Mar 21, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For some reason, this site won't post the comment that I'm trying to make as it shows up in preview, in complete form. Here I go, trying again
Please read carefully before arguing.
“And as for the Math Geeks? Check baseball-reference.com and their top five ‘similar batters through age 32.’ (Lee turns 33 this year). Keep in mind that he has 4 more years left on his contract.”
(emphasis added)
Roughly translated this means “go to baseball-reference and investigate their top five” rather than “i will reprint the entire top five here to save you time.” I did happen to reprint four of the five names. These four names were consistent with the argument that I was trying to make. I was under no obligation to reprint the fifth name, because I thought it was pretty plainly implied that I had left him out for the exact reason that he did not necessarily support my argument, and I try not to do other people’s work for them. Maybe you need help counting to reading comprehension? (Did you see what I did there? I don’t literally think that reading comprehension is a counting skill.)
by JayWise on Mar 21, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dear god man, you too?
“And as for the Math Geeks? Check baseball-reference.com and their top five ‘similar batters through age 32.’ (Lee turns 33 this year). Keep in mind that he has 4 more years left on his contract.”
Roughly translated this means “go to baseball-reference and investigated their top five” rather than “i will reprint the entire top five here to save you time.” Maybe you need help counting to reading comprehension? (Did you see what I did there? I don’t literally think that reading comprehension is a counting skill.)
by JayWise on Mar 21, 2009 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you reprint 4
and leave the other one for us to go find ourselves?
by TheBigOne on Mar 23, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read above.
Looks like he was having issues getting the post to post in the first place. It was probably an SBN lag spike. Happens to me every so often.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 24, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
God I need to learn how to read other people's posts first.
Disregard my comment.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 24, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's hilarious. =)
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 23, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you
actually go and look at what these guys were producing at the plate. None of these guys produced at El Caballo’s level in the seasons preceding the 32 year old season. Green and Luzinski had already been battling injuries, Mondesi never even had a 100 rbi season in his career, and Bell doesn’t compare well to Lee after age 27. In the 3 years previous to last year, he had played in 162, 161, and 162 games. To assume that just because a guy turns a certain age, that his production is going to drop off, especially when he has show to be quite durable and consistent in his production, isn’t really giving a player a fair shake.
by smoooooth on Mar 22, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
weird
I read just fine, thanks. I just don’t get why in the world you think that a guy is a “likely” candidate to suddenly drop off a cliff production-wise when he’s A) been a model of consistently well above-average offensive production for almost a decade and B) coming off of a season in which he actually produced better relative to his peers than ever before. I mean sure, he COULD significantly drop off production-wise . . .but is there a reason to think that he’s going to other than “four of the five guys who were statistically similar to him dropped off”? I mean, is there a reason that has to do specifically with Carlos Lee?
I believe somebody else did a fine job of illustrating just why all of those other guys are bad comps once you get past the raw numbers. None of them were producing at Lee’s level and none of them shared his remarkable durability. He plays terrible defense, to be sure. But then again I’m not the one who decided to play him in LF, and in any case his production is good enough to make him an above-average offensive contributor at any position in the game.
This all being said, I think it’s only fair to directly address your evidence. So I went to baseballreference.com and pulled the list of Lee’s top 10 comparables. Here’s the full, unabridged list:
1. George Bell
2. Shawn Green
3. Rafael Palmeiro
4. Raul Mondesi
5. Greg Luzinski
6. Billy Williams
7. Andre Dawson
8. Reggie Smith
9. Dave Winfield
10. Gary Sheffield
So we have 2 current HoFers on this list (Williams, Winfield), another who had the statistical credentials to get in but obviously won’t get in because of what he did to get those numbers (Raffy), a fringe guy who might eke his way in next year (Dawson), and a fifth active player who will probably get in (Sheff). So . . .out of the ten guys most similar to Lee at age 32, HALF of them put together not just good, but HoF-caliber careers that extended well into their late 30s? I’d say your evidence, when presented free of bias, actually works against you.
Just a bit of advice. You want to discuss contrasting points of view, I’m all for it. But don’t even think about cherry-picking points of a body of evidence and blatantly manipulating data for your own means, all while having the audacity to say that I’m the one who can’t read. It’s hypocritical and ignorant, and you intentionally attempted to mislead other posters on this site while claiming some bizarre notion of immunity to points of data that detract from your argument. Others will see through it. I will see through it. And I will gladly call you out on it, just as I’m doing right now.
by mrkupe on Mar 22, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Rec'd
Quality post as usual.
Same guy, new name.
by stillredsoxfan on Mar 22, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But don’t even think about cherry-picking points of a body of evidence and blatantly manipulating data for your own means, all while having the audacity to say that I’m the one who can’t read.
But how else can he sound as arrogant as he wants to? I mean sure, it’s intellectually dishonest, but really, isn’t life about the trade-offs?
by Locke000 on Mar 22, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not about sounding arrogant, and it's certainly not about cherry picking
It’s about taking the facts that are available and making an argument with them. Of course he’s going to be hitting better than the other guys on this list because he’s hitting in a different era. The “similar batters” function is meant to compare batters across eras.
Additionally, it’s not cherry picking to find the facts that support your argument and use them. To present all facts equally is just stupid. It’s not my job to say “on one hand….on the other hand.”
Third, the top five of those top ten hitters are the best comps, so obviously they have greater weight than the later guys.
Fourth, two of the “omitted” guys are likely and/or proven steroid users, and therefore the duration of their careers are bad for comparison (Palmiero and Sheff).
Fifth, to call Carlos Lee’s durability “remarkable” is a bit of an overstatement. For the majority of his career he played in almost every game. Last year he played in less than 2/3, because he got injured. However, to claim that he is likely to play in almost every game this year is disingenuous, considering that you have absolutely no idea as to how to predict injury probability in players, no basis of facts upon which to predict the injury, and no argument but “Carlos Lee is great now.” No one would have predicted last years injury, and who is to say that this year he won’t develop a back/knee/hip problem is a bit presumptuous.
Sixth, this was never about how great Carlos Lee has been as a hitter, and you refuse to acknowledge that. This is about the fact that he is likely to be no more than an average hitter by the end of the contract, and he’s getting paid 18.5 million per year on a team with a payroll under 10 million.
Seventh, by arguing with me you’re basically saying that you think that this is a good contract? Or at worst an average one? I just want to confirm that, because I get the feeling that you’re arguing this more because you like Carlos Lee than because you don’t believe that his Contract will be a serious disadvantage to the Astros in the coming years.
And as for arrogance? Maybe I am arrogant, but it’s hard not to be when you’re arguing with someone who is talking past you rather than addressing genuine concerns. (additionally, it wasn’t cool when mkrupe tried to mock me with your original post).
by JayWise on Mar 23, 2009 7:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Additionally, it’s not cherry picking to find the facts that support your argument and use them. To present all facts equally is just stupid. It’s not my job to say "on one hand….on the other hand."
Incorrect. Sure, as a lawyer, advocating for my client, my job is to put their best argument forward, and leave the other side to prove their case as best as they can (and if they miss something, too bad for them. Because that’s the way the adversary system is designed – two (or more) parties inherently interested in diametrically opposed outcomes and working as hard as they can to make the one they’d prefer turn into reality in a zero sum game. (Lets leave out settlement for now).
But that’s not the way a site like this is meant to work; nor should it be the way it actually works, unless you have some undisclosed (and, to be honest, unfathomable) interest in convincing people that Carlos Lee is about to enter a sustained slide. Absent some wholly irrational bias towards that conclusion, your “job” should be to put all of the evidence forward and see how it stacks up, evaluating, learning from and adapting your opinion based on the new data and other reactions your post generates.
Or, to put it more succinctly: You don’t win anything for being “right”, so stop acting like you do.
Fifth, to call Carlos Lee’s durability "remarkable" is a bit of an overstatement. For the majority of his career he played in almost every game. Last year he played in less than 2/3, because he got injured. However, to claim that he is likely to play in almost every game this year is disingenuous, considering that you have absolutely no idea as to how to predict injury probability in players, no basis of facts upon which to predict the injury, and no argument but "Carlos Lee is great now." No one would have predicted last years injury, and who is to say that this year he won’t develop a back/knee/hip problem is a bit presumptuous.
Except that if that’s your argument, comps are irrelevant. Last year’s injury wasn’t his body breaking down any more than (P) Chris Young’s injury was. Lee got hit by a pitch, and broke his finger. That has absolutely no predictive value for future injury, and every single batter in the league has roughly the same chance of a similar freak injury.
Moreover, considering that health is the norm and injury the unusual, how do you justify shifting the burden to me to prove “that he is likely to play in almost every game this year.” In fact, as the one claiming that’s unlikely, you need to supply some evidence. And as I pointed out above, “he got hit by a pitch last season” doesn’t cover it.
Seventh, by arguing with me you’re basically saying that you think that this is a good contract? Or at worst an average one? I just want to confirm that, because I get the feeling that you’re arguing this more because you like Carlos Lee than because you don’t believe that his Contract will be a serious disadvantage to the Astros in the coming years.
Actually, the part I disagree with is the claim that Lee is “Likely on the steep decline phase of his career”. Is it possible that his is? Sure, anything’s possible. But his performance to date hasn’t indicated that it’s “likely”
(additionally, it wasn’t cool when mkrupe tried to mock me with your original post).
I have no idea what you’re talking about now
by Locke000 on Mar 23, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not necessarily his performance to date that would indicate likely decline
it’s player aging curves in general. He’s about at the age when hitters of his type enter the decline phase of their career. I don’t necessarily think it’s going to be a steep decline, but his defense is almost certainly going to go from bad to worse, his offense will likely decline a bit and he will make progressively more money. That’s problematic.
by acblue on Mar 23, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was also -6 in LF and had a market value of $15 million.
He’s going to have to improve to be worth what he makes next year.
by acblue on Mar 21, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I had mentioned bad defense in the original comment but didn’t have the stats on hand to back it up. Do you have the link for the site where you found that?
by JayWise on Mar 21, 2009 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seeing as
he only played 115 games last year due to being hit in the hand with a pitch, I would say he has a pretty good chance of outperforming last year.
by smoooooth on Mar 22, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he had a negative six over 115 games.....
….doesn’t that multiply out to a -8.5 over a full season?
by JayWise on Mar 23, 2009 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It certainly doesn't imply you would be better.
Besides, I don’t see how his defense would be effected by a hand injury. Most of an outfielder’s defense is covering ground.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 23, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wasn't talking
about the -6, everyone knows he’s a poor defender, it was the market value.
by smoooooth on Mar 23, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the -6 UZR is an outlier.
He’s probably closer to -10 or so. And for what it’s worth, CHONE has his projected wOBA about 15 points lower than last season.
by acblue on Mar 23, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
acblue's pretty much got it nailed here.
So I’ll just talk about value. Lee’s been worth $12.7 and $15.3 million over the first two years of his contract, in terms of wins above replacement and market value. Basically he’s been worth $29 million and been paid $24 million. In short, he’s been worth his contract and then some.
But 2009 is where his contract starts to get wonky. Per Cotts, he’s due $18.5 in 2009 and every year until the contract is over. His 110 games in 2008 was the most valuable he’s ever been, even though he’s put up better WAR in the past. Let’s give the +$5 million in value he’s been so far and credit it towards 2009. That’d mean he’d only have to produce enough WAR for a $13.5 player to break even in value. Essentially, he’s going to have to be worth 3 WAR again minimum.
Possible? Sure. I see no reason to assume he’ll be a below 3 WAR player yet. But after that, there’s no more crediting for the $18.5 he’ll have in 2010, 2011, or 2012. He’s going to have to be a 3.75 to 4 WAR player in his age 34, 35, and 36 seasons in order to validate his contract. We cannot reasonably expect that he’ll put up those kinds of numbers as he ages. In fact, the decline will probably look more like a 2.7, 2.5, and 2.0 WAR in those seasons, vastly short of what he needs.
Lee, like Aflonso Soriano (and many others), was given a contract with such heavy backloading that there’s no way the player could break even in value. Worse, for the player, is that fans don’t like overpaid players who don’t produce. Backloading works in the NFL. It doesn’t work in baseball. So, while Lee’s contract is currently not at albatross level, after this year, it sure as heck will be. Unmovable, unproductive, and unsinkable as a cost.
Thankfully, we’re starting to see this idiotic practice go away in baseball.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 23, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slight backloading can work because of inflation but yeah.
For all intents and purposes it should never happen.
by acblue on Mar 24, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
And, in actuality, it’s not totally stupid if 2007 were 2001 and the cost of a marginal win kept increasing along the same lines as the contract. If we assume that teams were willing to spend $8 million per marginal win by the time he hit the $18.5 mark in his contract, then things would still look fine. But, honestly, inflation doesn’t raise that quickly. Backloading is mostly done for the benefits of the short term, not the long term. The idea is that by the time the player hits the “big” part of the contract, you have other contracts off the books that allow you to “afford” the big contract.
it makes sense in some ways, but for the most part teams are just shooting themselves in the foot after the player’s way past their prime.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 24, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Given the shift we've seen this offseason
I think it’s likely that obscenely huge and/or long contracts for all but top-top-tier FAs are likely to become a thing of the past. The Longoria/Sizemore/Hanley model makes way more sense for everyone involved.
by acblue on Mar 24, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides, I don’t see how his defense would be effected by a hand injury. Most of an outfielder’s defense is covering ground.
UZR does not consider OFer’s arms at all, in fact.
by alskor on Mar 24, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about
Eric Chavez, BJ Ryan, Brian Giles, Aaron Rowand, Bill Hall, Jose Guillen, and Jose Contreras?
Never, Never, NEVER give up
by hero66 on Mar 21, 2009 1:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Farnsworth!!!!!!!!!!
that jackass might have cost us the opportunity to sign Orlando Hudson this offseason…
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Mar 21, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barry Zito, Jason Schmidt, Mark Mulder are a few pitchers.....
Also the Jason Giambi contract that he signed with the NYY still boggles me….
after the fact
Garry Mathews JR and the LAA
is a good one
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Mar 21, 2009 9:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Barry Zito
Last season he went 10-17 with an era above 5. Not bad for someone who made 18 million that year. If the Giants didn’t sign Zito for 126 million, they could of made an offer to Manny or maybe even C.C.
by brosendin on Mar 21, 2009 10:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fred Wilpon signing on with Bernard Madoff
may also have cost a team Manny Ramirez…
by alskor on Mar 21, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Albert Belle
5/65
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on Mar 22, 2009 1:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re: I'd have to say
Barry Zito, Gary Sheffield, Nate Roberston, Luis Castillo, Andruw Jones and Jason Schmidt, Carl Pavano, Kei Igawa*, all take the cake. * though the Yankees can afford the putzing around of Kei Igawa….*
and let’s not forget Mike Hampton.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Mar 22, 2009 10:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re: worst contract v. Most crippling
Though there IS a difference, I would automatically assume that “worst contract ever”=
“most crippling”.
although in the Yankees perspective, neither the worthless contracts of Pavano or Igawa were “crippling”.
Crippling would also be say, Robertson and most of the Detroit long-term contracts…and Luis Castillo too.
Would Pedro Martinez count as a “Worst Contract?” hmm
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Mar 22, 2009 10:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
Jury is still out on Castillo, he could put together a better season this year, and he’s much healthier than he was last year (when he was limping when he walked, his running aside).
Pedro produced stellar numbers in his first year as a Met, and very good numbers his second year. With inflating salaries, he also wasn’t particularly high paid a year or two into the deal; he was paid about the same as Millwood and got hurt. Pitchers get hurt. Giving a rapidly (and obviously) declining Dontrelle a three year deal is a horrible contract. Giving one of the best pitchers in history a four year deal for top dollars isn’t the same thing, even if he was clearly an injury risk.
by Fanon on Mar 23, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You cant just throw out "pitcher get hurt:" with Pedro and call it bad luck
It was easily forseeable and resulted from a injury that existed at the time of his signing. The Mets knew he was likely going to get hurt – they were just willing to pay that price, all things considered. He had a tear in his labrum already – it wasnt just a chance of injury issue… I dont know how many times I heard the word “ticking time bomb.”
I dont think it was a bad contract, either, but still…
by alskor on Mar 23, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two points
1) The Mets went in expecting to get three years out of the deal. They got about 1 3/4. It didn’t work out. But if Pedro had been healthy for all of ’06 and through part of ’07, the deal would probably be considered a ringing success, particularly if the Mets had made it to the World Series in ’06 (even if Pedro had nothing to do with it).
2) The best way to sum up my “pitchers get injured” argument is that there’s a difference between giving that deal to Pedro and a deal like the one the Phils gave Adam Eaton. Pedro’s production had suffered a little bit the previous year, but that might have been a fair bit of bad luck, and he’d been pretty healthy since missing some time in ‘01. He was definitely a ticking time bomb, but it wasn’t a stupid bad deal (i.e. Eaton or if someone had paid out for Sheets this offseason), it was just a deal that didn’t work out.
by Fanon on Mar 23, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barry Zito!
Ultimate bad contract- it’ll take a while for the Giants to dig themselves out of that.
I heart prospects!!! Just not Red Sox prospects :)
by I Watch ur Farm Systemz on Mar 22, 2009 8:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Juan Pierre's is pretty bad...
as is Mathews and Dave Roberts (before he got cut). Pierre and Mathews are backups while Roberts isn’t anything better than a pinch runner.
by Havok1517 on Mar 22, 2009 11:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As an A's fan I have to nominate Eric Chavez and the $11 million
a season the A’s are paying him. He’s an all-star caliber 3B, especially when considering his defense, when healthy. The problem is he never is. I’m hoping he plays in 130+ this season and can hit something close to .260/.340/.460 but I have my doubts. Considering the A’s are a low revenue team in a small market with a low budget, $11 million to spend most of his time on the DL is really hurting that team.
by JPShark on Mar 23, 2009 1:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Most crippling contracts
Has to be Kevin Millwood combined w/ Vicente Padilla
The Rangers have 23 million tied up in these 2 for the next 2 years. They are not only blocking progress of more talented young pitchers, but they are hinderences to an organization that claims to be hamstrung by finances, and are no better than 4th starters at this point in their careers.
They still have 12 more million dedicated to Millwood to be their “ace” for next season, but they can at least get out from under Padilla for 1.75 mil next season.
I just sit back and root for the taser
by Hyatt on Mar 23, 2009 11:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Neither are locked in past 2009
Both have options. Millwoods is innings based and vests at 180 innings this year. Padillas is a club option which if he performs well will be a relative bargain.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Mar 23, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say Zito
because the young pitchers that the Giants have (Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner, Alderson) are all going to be better than Zito. They will pay 18 Million $$$ for a 5th starter, who probably doesnt deserve to be. That, is frickin crippling, especially if he’s gonna block some prospect
"Sometimes Joe (morgan) doesn't like facts to get in the way of his opinions."- billy beane
"That was a great pick...if this was 2002" Me, to guy who selected Barry Zito in a fantasy draft
www.27ClubPeak.blogspot.com
by harendaman365 on Mar 23, 2009 11:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's gotta be Zito
What is the biggest thing preventing the Giants from competing? Lack of offense. And Zito is guaranteed a spot in the rotation when Jonathan Sanchez is probably a better pitcher right now, and definitely will be going forward. If it wasn’t for that absurd contract, Manny Ramirez could very well be a Giant right now, which probably would’ve provided enough pop to compete, considering how great their rotation is outside of Zito. That team could be contending if 20% of their payroll wasn’t dedicated to paying Barry.
by Fanon on Mar 23, 2009 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mike Cameron @ 10 Mil this year
Hurts the Brewers especially considering the outfield market this year. They could have used that money to get a legitimate starting pitcher. It is not a horrific contract in the grand scheme of things considering his defense but its not a great contract for a team that has to spend like the Brewers.
You could also put Jeff Suppan at 12.5 Mil this year and next as pretty terrible. The Brewers are lucky they have enough young talent to be able to shoulder these contacts while fielding a competitive team.
by uwbadger on Mar 23, 2009 6:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's a fantastic contract.
Mike Cameron is an absurdly underrated player.
by acblue on Mar 23, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A one year deal is never a crippling contract.
And $10 million for a player who has been worth 4.5, 2.3, and 4.1 WAR the last three years is a bargain. All Cammy would have to do is provide enough defense for 2 WAR to validate the $10 million. Since I know he’ll bring at least a win with the bat and a win with the glove, the rest is cake.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 23, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Morris
post trade to Pittsburgh. The Pirates paid him what, like $3-4m at the end of 2007, plus another $10m the next season?
Imagine if they would have put that bonus towards Matt Wieters. The legacy of Dave Littlefield lives on..
by jseiner on Mar 24, 2009 2:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if by anchored
you meant “a heavy weight that held down the whole team from competing”
"Sometimes Joe (morgan) doesn't like facts to get in the way of his opinions."- billy beane
"That was a great pick...if this was 2002" Me, to guy who selected Barry Zito in a fantasy draft
www.27ClubPeak.blogspot.com
by harendaman365 on Mar 24, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zito. But how 'bout an MVP being crippling?
I agree with many others who say Zito’s is the most crippling. I’m amazed they’ve “overcome” it as well as they have.
But could you make a case for ARod’s Texas contract being the most crippling? Sure he has a fabulous player for them, and it wasn’t necessarily a horrible contract, but it was for that team. Had they spent that money on four-five sensible contracts and used more of it to shore up what was then a pretty weak farm system, I think the franchise would have been better off. Yeah, they weren’t on the hook for the whole ten years, but besides a few seasons of gaudy stats, what did it get them – two years of Soriano (which begat Wilkerson and Sledge, yay!), and it CRIPPLED the team from making any other moves to turn the team into a winner.
The wind is in the buffalo.
by journeymen on Mar 24, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A-Rod wasn't the money problem on those Rangers teams
Those were teams that paid guys like Chan Ho Park, Todd Van Poppel, Dave Burba, etc. I seem to recall that in at least one of those years, if you had added A-Rod’s salary to the A’s payroll, their payroll still would have been lower than the Rangers’ payroll. I’d rather pay 30 million to shortstop A-Rod in his mid-20s than pay eight figures to Chan Ho Park.
by aap212 on Mar 24, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This absolutely.
That was a good contract. He earned his money.
by acblue on Mar 24, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He may have earned it
but the Rangers didn’t need to pay him that much. They were bidding against themselves, and “overpaid”.
"Dying is no big deal. The least of us will manage that. Living is the trick." - Red Smith
by finman on Apr 2, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If a player earns the money they're paid it can't be "crippling."
There were so many terrible contracts on the books for the Rangers that singling out A-Rod’s seems short sighted and disingenuous.
by acblue on Apr 2, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ohh, What in the World were the
St. Louis Cardinals thinkging when they gave
SP-Kyle Lohse his new contract?
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Mar 25, 2009 12:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Alfonso Soriano
Full NTC
09: $16M
10: $18M
11: $18M
12: $18M
13: $18M
14: $18M
He turned 33 back in January. Something tells me this contract is going to get really ugly sooner rather than later.
by Outshined_One on Mar 25, 2009 4:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Probably
It would help enormously if he’d be willing to hit fifth. It’s a waste of his skills to have him leading off, and he’s not very good at it. The Cubs would do well to give the leadoff job to Theriot this season and tell Soriano to suck it up and hit in a place where his homers might do something. Adam Dunn made more sense as a leadoff guy than Soriano, at least he walked.
by Fanon on Mar 25, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Soriano's a pretty big one.
Though we’ll see how bad it is with the new Cubs ownership.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Mar 25, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re: injuries
If someone spends half the time on the DL in the midst of his long term expensive contract, it’s a waste of money and he did not live up to the contract expectations or obligations.
Now, it’s hard to predict who will stay healthy or not, but injuries have to count when it comes to “crippling” and “worst” contracts. and I am not blaming the injured player, just saying. I don’t think anyone would argue that Carl Pavano’s contract wasn’t crippling or worst!
just my 2c worth.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Mar 25, 2009 10:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A Couple More
First, if Juan Gonzalez had signed that 8/140 deal, he’d be entering the final year of his contract this season. That would have easily taken this inglorious award, as there’s no way the Tigers could’ve added the additional payroll around his $17.5M AAV. He probably would have kept them from making the World Series.
Denny Neagle has to be in the discussion, as well.
by seabass on Mar 27, 2009 8:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re: how about Todd Helton?
he has $59.6 million remaining for the next 3 years…ouch. talk about an immovable object.
at least Pirates’ Jack Wilson is a free agent this season, and he plays shortstop.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Mar 29, 2009 6:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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