Esmailyn Gonzalez lied about age
by Zabat on Feb 18, 2009 1:13 AM EST
76 comments
According to SI.com:
A top Washington Nationals prospect and recipient of the largest international signing bonus in team history is not who he appeared to be. Esmailyn Gonzalez, who is listed as 19 years old on the team's roster, is actually 23-year-old Carlos Alvarez Daniel Lugo, four sources have told SI.com.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/02/17/nats.gonzalez/index.html
From 19 years old to 23 years old, how much does this boost in age hurt his stock as a prospect?
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A lot
23 and repeating the GCL? What other 23 year old who repeated the GCL would be much of a prospect? If he’s really 23, forget about him.
by rdf8585 on Feb 18, 2009 1:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
is that a joke?
how much, how about 100%, he is worthless
by IHateMitchMustain on Feb 18, 2009 2:30 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Can they sue him?
I would want my money back and release him immediately.
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by achengy on Feb 18, 2009 2:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
ouch
Is there any way the Nats can get compensated for paying big money for well-disguised garbage? Should they be? I know if I was Jim Bowden I’d be pissed as hell right now, but what prevents other players coming from overseas from pulling the same kinda crap?
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by The Congo Hammer on Feb 18, 2009 2:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
What prevents others
is how tight the US regulations on immigration have become since 9/11. It used to be common practice, now it’s rare. Not sure how he got away with it this long.
by slurve on Feb 18, 2009 6:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's...
not that rare, even today.
by slamcactus on Feb 18, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's certainly
not as commonplace as it once was. We’ll never again see the amount of names we heard all at once when “agegate” broke. Now it’s just here and there as the State Department and USCIS are much more stringent than they used to be.
by slurve on Feb 18, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The state department...
checks records more thoroughly, but that doesn’t have much bearing on record-keeping in the Dominican Republic, which is still shoddy and subject to under the table agreements. I’ve spent a lot of time down there interviewing buscons and team representatives, and to a man the consensus is that the problem has far from disappeared. If teams were to open their books from the past few years when international signings have skyrocketed in price, you would see a lot of renegotiated deals for these 6 and 7 figure bonus babies that were never made public.
by slamcactus on Feb 18, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Au contraire
I know if I was Jim Bowden I’d be pissed as hell right now
If you were Jim Bowden you would be fired, as you don’t have whatever magical powers he uses to keep his job.
by aCone419 on Feb 18, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
have to find a way to write this stuff into a contract, just like other peripheral clauses
by drpat on Feb 18, 2009 6:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Smiley's not the only, or the first
Brings into question, all the top shortstops. Are there whispers on Andrus,Escobar,Truinfel,Flores, Others…..this has been going on for years, what is this 4 years, lets add 2 years to the shortstop lists, does this change perception or rankings..probably… US born players are not out of this mess. check birthdate, it’s interesting that every draft year there are top players with older birthdates relative to there draft class. parents are holding kids back having them repete a grade…..what we are really talking about is draft manipulation and international free agent manipulation, done by parents,buscones,agents……………….The so called level playing field of the future is not all about PED’s and testing……………next time people hype the next great thing…..might want to check a birthdate, a real birthdate
by BBLUEBLAND on Feb 18, 2009 8:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
ive never heard whispers about triunfel, flores, andrus, etc
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Feb 19, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is another huge blow for the Nats...
Their #10 prospect, and their first big signing in their new attempt into the Latin American market.
That is a pretty big blow. I found it funny in thr article that Texas was the next closest bidder at 700K vs. the 1.6M the Nats paid him.
by laxtonto on Feb 18, 2009 9:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
albert
lots of talk regarding the cards slugger being several years older than his listed age. And doesn’t jose contreras look 45 or so and not the mid 30’s age he is listed at?
by tuna411 on Feb 18, 2009 9:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Booorring
Nothing has been remotely substantiated showing Pujols to be older than he is. Even if he is who cares? Even if he’s 35, it doesn’t really matter at this point as he’s the best hitter in the game and doesn’t look to be slowing down anytime soon. His production levels / curve doesn’t fit with someone who is older as he’s obviously in his prime. It’s just a ridiculous accusation by haters. Move on.
by slurve on Feb 18, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols
Pujols went to high school in the United States and played at a college for a season and then was drafted in the 402nd round of the amateur draft and signed to a modest signing bonus. It is not like he is one of these international signings where the player is just looking to get rich quick and is signed for millions of dollars. That is the situation where players have a motivation to lie about their age. Pujols would have had no motive to do so.
by daser on Feb 18, 2009 10:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
re
I played in the Area Code Games against Pujols and believe me, the same things were being said about him back then.
And no motivation? There is no motivation for a 20 year old man to lie, claim he’s 17, beat the sh1t out of high school kids, and then get drafted?
by ScottAZ on Feb 18, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Danny Almonte went to school in the States too
I honestly don’t care that much about Pujols’ age, because his greatness so transcends age that it’s amazing while it lasts, no matter how old he is (and he doesn’t play for my team). But I don’t think that reasoning as to why he wouldn’t falsify his age works. I mean, if Matt LaPorta could convince us he was 21, we would be calling him the next Harmon Killebrew.
by aap212 on Feb 18, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agree
see my post above.
Pujols is a stud irregardless if he’s 29 or 39. It obviously means more for a young prospect in A ball than an established star like Pujols
by ScottAZ on Feb 18, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Please
use “regardless” instead of irregardless. I’m pretty sure that it’s not an actual word. I tried to ignore its use the first time, but the second post made me twinge.
by JayWise on Feb 19, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
only if
you refrain from using the word “twinge”
by ScottAZ on Feb 19, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Twinge is a real word. One definition of it describes a momentary sharp pain.
by JayWise on Feb 19, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And the OED considers irregardless a word
neither, however, should be used in this context
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by OldProspects on Feb 19, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The OED?
Lets not kid ourselves. They also consider rancidification and “rat pack” to be words. If you wanted to take any issue with “twinge,” there was a grammatical error with the sentence structure. Irregardless is just not a real word, regardless of what the OED says. And it’s a pet peeve of mine when people use fake words.
And, as a side note, “irregardless” is generally defined as the bastard child of regardless and irrelevant. Some people were confused and misused it. I take my stand here.
by JayWise on Feb 19, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure...
the sentiment he was going for was “the second post made me cringe.”
by DrunkIrish on Feb 20, 2009 10:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was actually me who said it
And yeah, cringe would have worked fine as well. Thanks for the defense there.
by JayWise on Feb 20, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, but not the same
Irregardless is a word in broad compendiums because it is used so often as to become part of the vernacular. It is still an abortion of language.
Twinge, though mostly used as a noun, can be validly used as a verb in the way JayWise did.
by aCone419 on Feb 21, 2009 8:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
CORRECTION
Of course I meant to say he was drafted in the 13th round with the 402nd pick overall, my point being that he was not a hugely hyped international signing. He signed for peanuts compared to Smiley Gonzalez.
by daser on Feb 18, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
quite surprising
i thought this issue with age went away post 9/11 with the government making it MUCH more difficult to falsify documents, but apparently it’s still going on……..hopefully it’s an isolated incident, but the rumors about triunfel (which i had discounted) do take on a bit more credence now……i guess time will tell
back on smiley though, wasn’t someone in the nats front office fired when rumors of a kick back in his contract first started? i know someone in chicago was for similar reasons……..did rijo or baez pocket some cash on the side in this transaction?
by Wheelhouse on Feb 18, 2009 9:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
sure enough
here is the article:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3483972
bowden and rijo have even more explaining to do with these new facts coming to light……..sounds very fishy
by Wheelhouse on Feb 18, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
David Wilder, CWS
Link to the White Sox scandal from last year: http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/5/19/520840/white-sox-fire-scouting-di
The pinata in their story was, lo and behold, again a coveted young shortstop in Juan Silverio. Rumors have flown about suggesting the supposed 16-year old was actually 21, though nothing conclusive (to my knowledge) has come about. Even though Silverio made the top-20 Appy league prospect list (barely), many observers commented him on him being completely over-matched despite not looking his age. Something to keep an eye on.
by Grudyfan on Feb 18, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Andruw Jones and Greg Oden are throwing him a party
And Edgardo Alfonzo is making a beer run.
by aap212 on Feb 18, 2009 11:19 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
...
There aren’t any questions about Andruw’s age, and Oden has a medical condition.
by mraver on Feb 18, 2009 10:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was a joke
But you haven’t heard the questions about Andruw’s age? Or the noticed that it would actually explain a lot about him?
And seriously, the Oden thing is a joke, and one of the most common jokes in all of sports right now. Benjamin Button starts at center for Portland.
by aap212 on Feb 19, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
If Jones was a few years older than believed it would better explain his development curve which is unusual to say the least. Breaking into the majors at 19, peak years from early to late 20s and completely failing apart by the time he is 30. As you say it would explain alot.
by DeJay on Feb 19, 2009 5:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What?
Andruw Jones peaked at ages 28 and 29. Breaking down once you hit your thirties is anything but atypical, especially for someone who doesn’t exactly watch their weight.
by aCone419 on Feb 19, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you add four years to his age...
Then his peak started when he was about 25 and he fell off a cliff when he was 35. And it would mean he made a splash in the playoffs at 23.
by aap212 on Feb 19, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And if my aunt had a ding dong...
That is different, not more likely; but what’s more, that explanation doesn’t actually fit with how his body actually looked and developed. His career arc needs no explanation and there has never been any question about his age.
by aCone419 on Feb 19, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I disagree with your logic, I have heard questions about his age, and—all together now—I was making a joke. Why do some people only come to this site when they’re cranky?
by aap212 on Feb 19, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Meh
I obviously was referring to legitimate questions about his age. Clearly out in the ether of the internet there are questions, otherwise this thread of conversation wouldn’t exist. But I’ve never seen anything beyond speculation of the “he was young and now sucks” kind.
I am aware that you were making a joke upthread. That’s why I addressed myself originally to DeJay, who was not making a joke. You then replied to me. Talk about cranky…
by aCone419 on Feb 21, 2009 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think a big part of this is that the steroids/Bonds*/ARoid era has skewed our idea of a natural career path.
We were all amazed when Bonds and Clemens were the best at the their positions at advanced ages – ages where, in the past, guys would be in serious decline. Now, seeing guys getting another contract at age 40 doesnt even faze us. Look at Omar Vizquel. Twenty years ago, the idea that someone would hand this guy a starting job at his age would have been one of the stories of the offseason. Its barely a blip on the radar screen. Not to imply that Omar is on roids – Im confident he’s not, but his thunder has been stolen b/c of all the guys that are.
Its perfectly natural for a guy to peak at 28, 29 and it used to be pretty common for a lot of guys to be almost done at 35.
by alskor on Feb 19, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right
But an athletic player suddenly falling off a cliff at 30 has rarely been normal, and one offseason of eating shouldn’t explain it. But of course, no one thinks Brad Wilkerson fudged his age either.
by aap212 on Feb 19, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One off season of eating?
That is just inaccurate. Andruw has been fielding criticism over being a fatty for years. And that is because he has been kind of a fatty for years.
by aCone419 on Feb 21, 2009 8:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Throw in in AA, see if he can play
Try and salvage the asset.
Then sue him.
Remember: baseball guys... baseball...
by Metty5 on Feb 18, 2009 11:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think it would be very interesting if the Nationals tried to get some of that money back
And it would present and interesting legal case. The player fraudulently entered into the contract (which might actually void the contract, though I don’t know that for certain). I would think the Nationals could go after him for some of that money.
That said, they’ll probably try to aggressively promote him now. And who knows, maybe he’s capable of facing tougher competition but the Nats never pushed him because he was only 19.
by thejd44 on Feb 18, 2009 1:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
There must be a precedent, right?
Lots of teams have been screwed by players like this in recent years. Did any of them find a successful course of action?
by aap212 on Feb 18, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is an odd situation though
Other guys, like Furcal, were already established major leaguers. Regardless of the age, the teams still got production out of the player. Has there been a situation where a huge bonus was given to a guy who, based on age alone, didn’t deserve it? 4 years is a huge difference (most of the age issues seem to be just a year or two).
Without recalling all the past age-gate players offhand, this seems like an extreme example, and one where the teams might want to look at their legal options.
by thejd44 on Feb 18, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting question, but do they have a case?
After all, he signed a contract to play baseball, not to “be 16 years old” (which wouldn’t be something you could contract to “do” anyway). I’m sure they could invalidate whatever player contract he’s playing for them under right now, without any trouble. But can they recoup the bonus money? There’s all kinds of hurdles that a smart lawyer will throw in their path: claiming Gonzalez didn’t know his own birthdate, claiming the Nationals knew or should have known how old he was, claiming the Nats had no right to rely on DR players’ ages, claiming they didn’t suffer damages… and a lot of the money may have moved offshore to where they have an awfully hard time getting at it.
They’ll be lucky to get half of the money back, I’d say. Oh to be a fly on the wall in that process.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
by PaulThomas on Feb 19, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What if you sign into a contract using a false name?
I defer to you on this matter. I don’t know if contract law is your future (or current) specialty, but I know you have more law knowledge than me anyway. If I enter into a contract as Paul Thomas, isn’t, at very least, that contract not a legal document? Essentially he forged somebody else’s name.
by thejd44 on Feb 19, 2009 3:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, there's no doubt that whatever player contract he might happen to be under is void
The thing is, as a minor leaguer who’s not even on the 40-man roster, he’s almost certainly operating under one-year contracts. He probably doesn’t even have a deal active right now.
The interesting question is whether they can get the bonus money back. If he really, genuinely snookered them, they’ll get a judgment against him eventually (note I didn’t say “get the money eventually,” since he might well be judgment-proof— if I stole a million dollars from someone, I’d get it offshore as fast as possible) on fraud, which is properly a tort rather than a breach of contract. If they knew about his age when they signed him, they won’t get anything.
The interesting question is what happens if the Nationals didn’t know but obviously should have known, i.e. they ignored clear signs that something was not right in the transaction. Gonzalez, or should I say Lugo, might be able to argue that their reliance on his claimed age was unreasonable and thus their losses were their own fault.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
by PaulThomas on Feb 19, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you've gone to law school
This is the dying heifer hypothetical. Of course they can sue to get the bonus back. It’s just unlikely they’d actually be able to get the money because it’s mostly in the DR. Realistic best case scenario is they negotiate a reworked deal and he returns part of the money.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Feb 20, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I must have slept through that hypo...
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
by PaulThomas on Feb 22, 2009 1:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't go to law school
But i’m guessing he means if you buy a heifer and it turns out to be dying, and the selling farmer knew, then the deal was negotiated in bad faith and the seller would have to recompense you for it. But I’m just guessing
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by OldProspects on Feb 23, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
100%
the Nationals could contest the contract in court. If you falsify your name, then there really can’t be a contract in the first place. The Nationals signed into an agreement under false pretenses.
The stuff about the Nationals knowing, well that probably why Bowden has been under investigation.
And the money, Wheelhouse is probably right, he spent every dime. Which doesn’t mean that he wouldn’t have to pay- but this could turning into a criminal trial for falsifying federal documents (I’m assuming he needed a visa, etc.)
Remember: baseball guys... baseball...
by Metty5 on Feb 19, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not only did he sign the contract under a false name
But also I see no reason why teams couldn’t put in some sort of age certification clause in the contract too.
Not sure if the Nats actually did that with this guy’s contract, but I see no reason why teams couldn’t do it going forward.
by guru4u on Feb 19, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what makes you think there is any money left?
he probably doesn’t have a penny to his name
by Wheelhouse on Feb 19, 2009 3:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is funny...
I was living in the DR when Gonzalez signed, and a few people told me they knew he was 21. Those rumors get thrown out about everyone, though, so I filed it away under curiosity – not worth reporting anywhere, but something to keep in mind.
The first guy who told me about it gave me info (in non-repeatable rumor form) about several other players, one of which has also been “outed” since. Leads me to believe it’s a much more widespread practice today than people seem to think.
by slamcactus on Feb 18, 2009 2:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
maybe off-topic, but
how was it, living in the DR? my fiance and I will be moving there in the next few years. lots of baseball to be seen?
Josh Kinney wrestled a bear once.
by mateodh on Feb 18, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Short answer:
Amazing. Longer answer: there’s virtually no infrastructure outside of wealthier areas of Santo Domingo and Santiago (and, of course, the tourist towns on the North Coast). They were working on a huge subway installation project when I lived there, so if that’s been completed, the city might be easier to navigate. They outlawed drinking WHILE driving in the third month that I was there – keep in mind, they didn’t test you for drunkenness, just made sure you weren’t actually drinking alcohol while you were driving.
Tons of baseball in the winter, but the summer leagues are a bit of a trek outside the city limits.
by slamcactus on Feb 18, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wow...what a place....no dwi laws?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
they have them now, and technically I think it’s illegal to drive drunk, but when they made it illegal, it was a really big deal. Their enforcement was to barricade major streets in the cities and check for alcohol in cars. They didn’t actually have breathalizers.
by slamcactus on Feb 19, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was in Santo Domingo...
for two months this summer, and people are still driving while drinking. In Boca Chica, where Baseball City is, there are billboards warning that drinking and driving is illegal. It’s jarring when the guy driving the car pulls over to buy a round of beers, but it’s not so far out there. Can you still have an open container in Lousiana? Montana? I think there are some states that lagged behind in this regard…
by Patrick Clark on Feb 20, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Looking forward to all the baseball
Just gotta keep the missus safe on the roads, lol. Any place you’d recommend living?
In what St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa called a "big day" for his club, starter Chris Carpenter took the mound for his first session of live batting practice and promptly buzzed the fuzz on catcher Jason LaRue’s chin with an errant fastball.
"Sorry," Carpenter called from the mound.
"Don’t say you’re sorry," LaRue barked back.
"He said it," pitching coach Dave Duncan said from the side of the cage, "but he didn’t mean it."
~ DG
by mateodh on Feb 21, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
makes a huge difference
in todays baseball world the difference from being 19 and 23 is immense
unless he starts to play like a 23 year old phenomenon might as well right him off
Happiness is only real when shared
by manny59 on Feb 18, 2009 10:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
With that money...
they could have signed Aaron Crow and save some for this year draft :-(
by LCT on Feb 19, 2009 8:19 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
it's all so hard to make sense of...
If it’s a kickback scheme, which strikes me as likely, I don’t think that the money is going into the pockets of club officials. I know there was Wilder and the cash, and I don’t doubt that club officials take a sort of fee for themselves. mostly, i suspect the clubs are willing to pay inflated bonuses a) as payola and b) to create for themselves a Latin American slush fund.
but I don’t see who’s getting hurt. the players themselves get used, but do they wind up getting less money than they deserve? the Dominicans who bring the players to the market make out, but that’s capitallsm, anywhere, and especially in the developing world. even in this new age of exploding international bonuses, Latin America still represents the place to find cheap and excellent talent, which is why the clubs are investing there.
meanwhile, if it’s like this in the DR, which is as U.S.-friendly as any Latin American country, what’s it like in Venezuela?
by Patrick Clark on Feb 20, 2009 9:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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