Vitters v. Castro: Who's #1?
As of today, in almost everyones estimation Castro is clearly the Cubs #1 prospect. I've done a lot of reaserch and gone back over scouting reports and numbers and I just don't find it to be that clear. I'm leaving Brett Jackson out of this discusion as we only have a small sample size at low levels for a college player and I only have limited scouting reports on him and want to see how his k rate is gonna play at higher levels.
Castro: In a perfect world I see his offensive profile as something along the lines of Yunel Escobar. 280ish 10-15 hr 10-20 sb while playing above average ML defense. Castro is riding some serious helium and I think that has led to ppl overrating him as a prospect. The fact that he reached AA as a 19 year old has also pumped up his prospect status. I have some serious questions as to how high his offensive profile really is. 1st I can't get an accurate read on what his speed actually is. Last year BA said he had average speed w/ possibly more to come and this year they say he's a plus runner. Now from a couple of ppl who saw him not only in the AFL but also during the year I've heard everything from below average to average ( I dont know if I buy below average but I've seen a lot of average). So I'm not sure what the reality is. He profiles to fill out more and add power but if he does how much speed does he lose?
He hit .288 in 111 ABs at AA, which is encouraging but I'm also cautious about how much to read into this. His promotion came at the end of the year when some of leagues better pitchers got promoted and young pitchers are starting to feel the effects of the long season as they are approaching career highs in IP. So I guess how good was the quality of pitching he faced late in the year? This goes for the AFL also. I use this as an example not the rule but players like Lars Anderson and Andrew Lambo cruised through A ball to late season promotions to AA in '08 and kept hitting only to struggle in a full year at AA in '09. Now I'm not comparing any of these hitters just pointing out that we should be cautious about his numbers late in the year at AA.
2010 will go along way toward answering some of these questions like speed, power ETC. As of right now I'd say Castro has the look of a solid average to above average #2 hitter in a ML line up posting numbers something like 280-290 8-12 HRs and somewhere between 10-20 SBs. A nice offensive profile but not a star. Of coarse on the down he could end up a light hitting bottom of the order average to above average ML defender also. Not really the profile I'd like to see from my teams #1 prospect.
Vitters: So many are down on him and yes I can see some of the argumeny why. Poor walk rate and defensive questions. There is still an awfull lot to like. He rates as a 70 in both hitting and power on the 20-80 scouting scale. He has an extremley compact stroke for a power hitter maybe the prettiest right handed swing in the minors. He makes such easy contact that it almost is working against him in learning to wait on his pitch. He hit very well as a 19 year old in the pitcher friendly Midwest League posting 316/351/535 15 46. Coming into this year some were starting to question how much power he would have after posting 25 2b and 5 hr in SS ball. This year he turned those 2b into HR (19 2b 18hr). So he is making improvements and adjustments. In Pablo Sandoval's 1194 PA in low and high A ball he walked only 61 times. Now I'm not saying he's gonna follow KFP development path or even that he ends up as good as him but he's not the 1st ulta aggressive hitter to have walk issues as a young man. Also he only struck out 65 times last year a very encourging number. FWIW Vitters and Sandoval's numbers in the low minors look eerily similar w/ Vitters showing more power.
Yes Vitters struggled in his first taste of high A ball but not that uncommon either. His BABIP was only .259 in a very small sample size. Simply put Vitters gets high marks for work ethic and has shown that he knows how to make adjustments both leading me to believe he will be much improved in high A next year. Defensively he was really bad last year but he gets raves on how hard he works. He's got a strong arm and from what I've heard his defensive problems could come a long way w/ improved footwork which I have to think at some point Alan Trammel or someone else in the organization is gonna put in some work w/ him on that. Some act as if it's a forgone conclusion that he ends up at 1B. He is gonna have to prove to the Cubs that he absolutely cannot handle 3B before they even consider that move.
Vitters could easily be a 300 hitter w/ 25-30 HR power if only he learns to lay off the pitchers pitch and wait on his. He will probably never walk much but if he develops a dangerous bat he'll draw more walks purley based on pitchers being more carefull when working him in much the same way Sandoval drew a career high 52 BB this year. Even if he moves to 1B his bat could still easily play there. To be fair there is also a chance he flames out and never reaches the majors. But given the choice of Castro or Vitters I'd have to take my chances on Vitters. Don't get me wrong I like Castro but I think he offers some of his own questions but not w/ the type of ceiling Vitters offers. At 19 this past year and just turned 20 I cannot understand how ppl can just write him off so easily.
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His perfect world comp
is probably a tad higher than Yunel Escobar’s. As for his speed, his game speed doesn’t match his natural speed (raw speed) which may explain the differences
Anyhow, I’ve made plenty of comments on this topic before. I’m debating whether or not to drop Vitters from the top 2 in my final Cubs prospect rankings. While he has plus power potential, there is a question if his swing will lead to plus power. An interesting comparison was made over at BCB awhile ago when someone asked if he was Mark Reynolds. I suggested no, because Reynolds goes up there looking to hammer the ball, whereas Vitters doesn’t, but his raw power leads to home runs.
At the end of the day, if we’re looking perfect world scenarios, we’re looking at a potential AS shortstop versus a potential AS bat (3rd or 1st … I think he can be below average but not terrible at 3rd). I also think Castro has a higher floor than Vitters at this point. My biggest issue isn’t the walks directly, but rather, the lack of pitches per plate appearance (I believe it was around 3.2 or 3.3). That’s just bad … although granted, I’ve never done any research on that to see the success rates of minor leaguers that are that aggressive. I love Vitters swing. There isn’t anything wrong with it, but I have a hard time seeing someone succeed with 3.2/3.3 p/pa.
Even if you think Castro will grow out of short, he should be able to hold shortstop for a few years in his youth. Good character/work ethic gives hope that he’ll maximize his ability, unlike Ronny Cedeno. And thus, since he has a higher floor for me, plus the fact that I would take an AS SS over an AS corner IF bat, I’d put Castro as the top prospect in the Cubs system, with a B+ grade, and Vitters as more of a B.
I'm really coming around on Brett Jackson
I don’t know why it took me so long (I liked him as a draft prospect and was happy we landed him). I thought Callis was overrating him a tad, but … now, the more I contemplate it, the more I think he’s right. Not sure what I’ll do for my own list yet, but there’s enough to argue.
I’d probably give Vitters the slight nod ahead of Jay Jackson, even though I’m a huge fan of Jay. He’s more of a 2 in a best case, and there are some big enough concerns on control and delivery, along with the off-field incidents that, I think Vitters better upside wins out.
Actually, even though I’ve ranked him 4th or 5th most of the offseason, on upside, Cashner has as much as anyone in the system. I mean, if he can simply be durable and last 6 innings or so, plus-plus fastball with a plus breaking ball can succeed. I’m just not sure he’s a starter.
Another
Air tight argument. I learn so much from these posts.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Dec 22, 2009 2:25 AM EST up reply actions
Vitters
I’ll take Vitters as I think his May last year is his upside and he was dominant. The 1st third of the season it could be argues he was a top 10 prospect. Guys who don’t walk don’t scare me as long as they control the zone with low K’s and I feel Vitters does this well. Ny Biggest concern with Vitters is his health. I feel Castro will be the prospect whose stock drops the most this year, I hear some like Law arguing for him as a top 15 or so and that I don’t buy.
Daveh or Freddrick0220...
Could either of you explain what is so clear cut better about Castro over Vitters? I mean you both posted that “it wasn’t even close” and for the most part I think you both are fairly knowledgable and would love to hear your input.
Castro is pretty good across the board
Vitters has a serious, serious flaw in his approach that i feel will severly limit him as he progresses and could even be damning at the MLB level.
Castro isnt really an exceptional talent (nothing wows you), and I dont see Escobar there – lets say more like an average to above average fielding SS with 80% of Escobar’s bat. That would be a pretty nice player.
Id say Vitters would have the higher ceiling IF he could figure things out – I just have zero faith that he will do it.
I like this post a lot.
Though, I’ll say this, talk in Chicago is already putting Castro somewhere in the stratosphere of Alex Rodriguez’s bat with Ozzie Smith’s glove. These aren’t serious projections, just typical overblown hype. Every time I hear Castro’s name mentioned it’s as if every other shortstop in the game should just stop playing to avoid the embarrassment that will come when Castro takes the field.
It’s annoying for sure, but I still think he’s better than Vitters because of the massive, obvious flaw in Vitters’ game.
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on Dec 22, 2009 3:23 AM EST up reply actions
Really?
Your hatred for the Cubs goes so far that you live in your own fantasy world. So what else do the voices in your head tell you?
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Dec 22, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Castro
This post is probably the most realistic look on Castro I have seen in a while. Is he a good player? Yes. Low floor? Yes. High ceiling? Absolutely not. He’s not Hanley… not even close. I actually like the Yunel Escobar comp, but put me in the camp saying his speed is average at best – and probably more like below average.
Vitters
Vitters plate discipline is below zero. It’s hurting him, his ability to hit looked miserable in a small sample at Daytona. He’s shown in the low minors that if you want to get him out all you have to do is not throw him a strike. He’s not going to take a walk.
Castro’s extremely risky, the scouts seem to generally like him and he’s got plenty of projectability there. He’s quick but not a great baserunner yet (things he can learn) and he’s a decent fielder and a good hitter.
I would argue that Cashner/B. Jackson/Castro/Vitters could all be considered #1 in the Cubs system and I wouldn’t blink an eye. I had Vitters #1 a few mo ago, but I don’t know if I’d put him #1 now.
Wow
It’s truly impressive that he’s the first player in baseball history to walk fewer than 0 times in a season. They must have had a ticker tape parade for him after the season ended. Such a mind blowing accomplishment deserves to be celebrated.
Well, Vitters certainly got schooled by all those AA/AAA pitchers in the AFL. If some anonymous Internet shlub like you knows how to get him out, then he must have struggled to hit .100, right? You are a master debater.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Dec 22, 2009 2:34 AM EST up reply actions
I have a bet on Vitters with a Cubs fan
5:1 that he has equal or more HBP than BB next season (min 75 games played). In 2009 he had 10 HBP, 12 BB. Any chance I win or was that a dumb bet to take? Logic would dictate that his plate discipline couldn’t get worse, right?
by two fishsticks on Dec 22, 2009 4:27 AM EST up reply actions
Oh yeah great bet....
because there is no chance in hell his PD improves and i gotta think if vegas was setting odds it would open at least 20 to 25:1 odds.
Right
I’ll take those odds. Care to back that up with some of your own money? I’ll gladly put down $100 to take you for $2500.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Dec 22, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry Wayne..
but i don’t make moronic bets like that. Do you know how many times a player has had more HBP then BB in at least 75games in the history of baseball both major and minors? I havn’t done the reaserch but I’d venture a guess of somewhere pretty damn close to 0. I wouldn’t make a stupid bet like this the same way I don’t take a 3 game parlay of road fav’s in the NFL. It’s called stupid betting and falls into the category of having a gambling problem.
My point was that I thought he should have at least gotten better odds both based on the probility of how many times it’s happened in history and that fact it’s not a sure bet that Vitters dose not make some strides PD wise. Thanks for the offer though.
Angel Villalona was close (twice)
2008:
123 Games
3 Intentional Walks
15 Unintentional Walks
16 Hits by Pitch
2009:
74 Games
2 Intentional Walks
7 Unintentional Walks
8 Hits by Pitch
LMAO...
Call your bookie after you lose a close 1 and tell him your team almost covered and see how far that gets ya.
Seriously though I’m not saying it’s impossible. It very well could have happened 1,000 time in the history of baseball especially if your using MiLB players but now divide that by the millions of players and seasons and your probility rating is something like .00001 (maybe worse) as a rough guess. My point was I don’t make stupid moronic bets no matter how sure it would seem to win a $100 v. losing 2500 that I don’t have to throw around.
I didn't say I would make the bet
The odds are much better than that though because you’re not factoring in the player. Vitters came close last year and I wouldn’t be shocked if he happened to pull it off.
True
Vitters in himself could make this bet worth while. But taking in pure probility I still say it’s highly unlikley and factoring that it’s not so unlikley that a 19 just turned 20 year old player could make some real progress in PD especially I have to think/hope that this is a point of emphasis w/ the Cubs organization for him this offseason and training camp they will be working w/ him on it.
LOL..also...
i’ll admit, the fact that we are even having this conversation speaks volumes how poor his PD is and how much work he needs to do on it. I still believe though…………
Give me Vitters...
and I’ll worry about his lack of walks later. There’s the possibility he ends up like Jeff Francoeur, but he’s got too perfect a swing and too much contact ability for me to be terrified just yet.
His swing looks so nice because he gets all that extra practice
…swinging at pitches in the dirt and at his ears that other guys wouldnt even flinch at.
awsome.....
…….conclusion..why don’t you work as a scout??
I think I like...
Castro, Jackson, and Cashner over Vitters at this point. 2010 will be a telling year for Vitters.
I definitely do
I really see league average as Vitters’ ceiling. But then, Ive never liked him and been plenty vocal about it.

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