Pittsburgh Pirates Organization Discussion
by John Sickels on Dec 15, 2009 11:14 AM EST
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No way
Alvarez, Tabata and Lincoln are easily ahead of Sanchez. I’d also rank d’Arnaud ahead of him.
Alvarez is easily ahead of Sanchez...
I’m not so sure I put Tabata and Lincoln ahead of him at this point though. Tabata obviously has the higher ceiling, but Sanchez looks like a pretty good bet to be a quality MLB catcher right now. I’d say the three might be interchangeable depending on personal preferences.
I want to see Sanchez hit above the SAL
He has the defense already, but I’m still not sold on his bat and I want to see him at higher levels before I disregard the pre-draft scouting.
+1 on D'Aranaud
Saw him at 2 levels this year and he was exceptional at both – very comfortable on the field and at the plate. I may or may not put him ahead of Sanchez, but he’s an elite prospect in this org.
As for Tabata I’m not convinced he’s the age he says he is and he’s got some off-field distractions he needs to get rid of (crazy old lady)
A lot of 2009 Draftees will be on this list.
Check out my website, it has scouting reports for all the Orioles' top prospects and is updated daily. www.oriolesprospects.com
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by Jordan Tuwiner on Dec 15, 2009 11:47 AM EST reply actions
Rudy Owens-What’s his ceiling?
Victor Black-Mid rotation starter or late inning reliever?
by another know it all on Dec 15, 2009 11:48 AM EST reply actions
Rudy Owens...
J.A Happ type pitcher. Black has the stuff to be an elite starter, but will more than likely be an elite closer.
list
Tim Alderson RHP
Pedro Alvarez 3B
Aaron Baker 1B
Nate Baker LHP
Victor Black RHP
Ramon Henry Cabrera C
Colton Cain LHP
Evan Chambers OF
Jarek Cunningham SS
Chase D’Arnaud INF
Zack Dodson LHP
Brian Friday SS
Robbie Grossman OF
Josh Harrison 2B
Gorkys Hernandez OF
Brock Holt 2B
Jeff Inman RHP
Phillip Irwin RHP
Quincy Latimore OF
Brad Lincoln RHP
Jeff Locke LHP
Brett Lorin RHP
Starling Marte OF
Daniel McCutchen RHP
Jordy Mercer SS
Quinton Miller RHP
Diego Moreno RHP
Bryan Morris RHP
Danny Moskos LHP
Rudy Owens LHP
Brooks Pounders RHP
John Raynor OF RULE 5
Tony Sanchez C
Trent Stevenson RHP
Hunter Strickland RHP
Jose Tabata OF
Ronald Uviedo RHP
Donald Veal LHP
Zack Von Rosenberg RHP
Neil Walker 3B
looks good
I like the Colton Cain inclusion. I see a lot of extremely raw, extremely toolsy outfielders.
by another know it all on Dec 15, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
maybe not
I think Wes Freeman needs to be in there in some capacity.
by another know it all on Dec 15, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Freeman
and Trayce Thompson look like clones, right down to the terrible plate discipline.
by another know it all on Dec 15, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
pretty good list John
I think my top 5 Pirates
would be:
1. Pedro Alvarez
2. Jose Tabata
3. Tony Sanchez
4. Brad Lincoln
5. Either Rudy Owens or Chase D’Arnaud
H.M. Jeff Locke, Tim Alderson, Zack Von Rosenberg, Robbie Grossman, Starling Marte, gotta love Jon Raynor and Gorkys Hernandez… too maybe Victor Black or Bryan Morris
what to make of Danny Moskos ?
all in all a definate top 10 system overall for me….
Rene Tosoni is good.
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Dec 15, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Potential people to add to you already good list
Nate Adcock, Argenis Diaz, Tom Boleska, Michael Dubee, Shelby Ford, Matt Hague, Jim Negrych, Nelson Pereira, Aaron Pribanic, Rogelios Noris are worthy of consideration for your list.
Justin Wilson should definitely be on there, we had a vote on a pirates website and he ranked #19.
by houksyndrome on Dec 15, 2009 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
oops
this was meant to be a reply to the above
by reverse apache master on Dec 15, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Justin Wilson, anyone?
I like the inclusion of Freeman. I’d cut Harrison off the list.
Aaron Baker and Irwin, too.
Maybe Nelson Periera deserves a mention, too.
Agreed on Wilson and cutting Harrison.
by thegreatchris on Dec 15, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
VSL guys
I like the inclusion of Cabrera. I haven’t been following these too closely so I dont know if you normall go all the way down to the latin american leagues, but Jorge Bishop had a pretty big year at an appropriate age. Exicardo Cayones too. Jonathan Barrios at one point was having a great year but I think he dropped off towards the end.
by reverse apache master on Dec 15, 2009 12:27 PM EST reply actions
VSL
With extremely rare exceptions,I don’t do the VSL or the DSL guys.
by John Sickels on Dec 15, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
list
Tim Alderson RHP
Pedro Alvarez 3B
Nate Baker LHP
Victor Black RHP
Ramon Henry Cabrera C
Colton Cain LHP
Evan Chambers OF
Jarek Cunningham SS
Chase D’Arnaud INF
Zack Dodson LHP
Wesley Freeman OF
Brian Friday SS
Robbie Grossman OF
Josh Harrison 2B
Gorkys Hernandez OF
Brock Holt 2B
Jeff Inman RHP
Phillip Irwin RHP
Quincy Latimore OF
Brad Lincoln RHP
Jeff Locke LHP
Brett Lorin RHP
Starling Marte OF
Daniel McCutchen RHP
Jordy Mercer SS
Quinton Miller RHP
Diego Moreno RHP
Bryan Morris RHP
Danny Moskos LHP
Rudy Owens LHP
Brooks Pounders RHP
John Raynor OF RULE 5
Tony Sanchez C
Trent Stevenson RHP
Hunter Strickland RHP
Jose Tabata OF
Ronald Uviedo RHP
Donald Veal LHP
Zack Von Rosenberg RHP
Neil Walker 3B
Freeman on, Aaron Baker off.
Ramon Aguero, Justin Wilson
I wouldn’t leave these two off. Wilson started his pro career at high A, struggled, then finished very strongly. Aguero went from nowhere to AA and a roster spot. He was Altoona’s best reliever in the late season. He throws in the mid- to upper-90s with a good change (I think he has a reverse platoon split) and decent command. I’d put them both ahead of Freeman, Harrison and Irwin for sure, along with a lot of others here.
sounds like another sues evaluation. not high on aguero because of the talent level he faced down the stretch. wilson is intiguing but likely to end up being another grabow for the bucs.
What grade do you guys think Von Rosenburg will get?
Check out my website, it has scouting reports for all the Orioles' top prospects and is updated daily. www.oriolesprospects.com
Follow me on twitter @orioleprospects and discuss the Orioles' prospects in my forums
C+
He has good potential but he’s gotta play first(besides 1 inning).
Same with Colton Cain.
Great picks by the Pirates.
higher than c+
sickels said in june that ZVR has #2 potential
the kid has a live arm but it takes something upstairs to harness that. does zvr have it? he has a long way to go.
Yeah
ZVR is at least 4 years away and so many pitchers with #2 potential, good stuff, good command go into the minors and struggle.
I’d just like to see some success in short season ball against some top high schoolers and some college guys.
I can see a B- but like joegonzo said, no higher.
by UncleBuck44 on Dec 16, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Any idea on where this organization ranks? Top 15? Top 12? Top 10?
It’s an interesting group in that, looking at the list, there are probably 30+ guys who could make a lot of top 20s, although many of them would fall into the back end. A lot of teams might have better top 10s, but how many run as deep?
Around 15
Alvarez is really the only impact prospect. They have high upside guys that are very far away and that’s the part of the system that I like (but it obviously has the highest bust potential).
What is Lincoln's ceiling?
Some people seem to think he’s an ace ready to go right now, others that he’s just another middle-of the rotation at best kind of guy like the Pirates seem to have a lot of. What’s his realistic peak?
I really don't think anyone sees him as an ace
You’re name has 2k9 in it — what are you some 8 year-old who makes Pillsbury Doughboy cookies and jerks off to that bullshit video game with Tim Lincecum on the cover--
Frederick0220
If you read his scouting reports, you'd think ace
but his stats tell a different story. He was dominant for half of 2009 at AA. But was mediocre at AAA after his promotion. He never put up good minor league numbers prior to this year. I’m a Pirates fan and I don’t know what to make of him at all.
by houksyndrome on Dec 15, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
I don’t see ace when I read his scouting reports. I see a guy with a good fastball and a pretty good curve whose lost time really hurt his development. Without a significant improvement in his change up, I’d be surprised if he’s anything more than a third starter.
When you see his fastball-curveball combo...
some could think ace, but not everyone does. I could see him being a good #2 though.
Of course
I’d be happy if he turns into a solid #3 starter. I just don’t read ace when I look at his scouting report.
Jose Ascanio
Does he lose eligibility based on time spent on the active roster, or just passed the prospect stage at this point?
Benjamin Pribanic
instead of Harrison…
Solid before & after the SEA trade
list
Tim Alderson RHP B-
Pedro Alvarez 3B
Nate Baker LHP
Victor Black RHP
Ramon Henry Cabrera C
Colton Cain LHP
Evan Chambers OF
Jarek Cunningham SS
Chase D’Arnaud INF
Zack Dodson LHP
Wesley Freeman OF
Brian Friday SS
Robbie Grossman OF
Gorkys Hernandez OF
Brock Holt 2B
Jeff Inman RHP
Phillip Irwin RHP
Quincy Latimore OF
Brad Lincoln RHP
Jeff Locke LHP
Brett Lorin RHP
Starling Marte OF
Daniel McCutchen RHP
Jordy Mercer SS
Quinton Miller RHP
Diego Moreno RHP
Bryan Morris RHP
Danny Moskos LHP
Rudy Owens LHP
Brooks Pounders RHP
John Raynor OF RULE 5
Tony Sanchez C
Trent Stevenson RHP
Hunter Strickland RHP
Jose Tabata OF
Ronald Uviedo RHP
Donald Veal LHP
Zack Von Rosenberg RHP
Neil Walker 3B
Justin Wilson LHP
Not a big Pribanic fan.
Aguero looks interesting. But who do I cut to make room? Uviedo?
+1
I really like Uviedo. I think he is one of our most under-rated prospects. He converted to a starter this year and pitched pretty well.
by houksyndrome on Dec 15, 2009 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Argenis Diaz too
already at AAA at 22 playing “sound” D at SS…. bat is still a lag behind but hit a respectable
.246 /.297 /.286 considering was rushed.Could be a factor in 2010 IF bat translates well & he starts to find some gap power.
I know that most 2009 draftees don't have any experience yet
and therefore it’s tough to rank them (especially high schoolers), but I love their picks of Colton Cain and Zack Von Rosenberg. I think Huntington is slowly turning this around and making somewhat good decisions (as opposed to strictly “good decisions”).
I like what he’s done draftwise quite a bit. The hand he was dealt at the major league level in terms of major league talent, farm system, and budget constraints was a pretty tough one to figure out how to play. It really looked like it might be a 7-8 year rebuild in terms of major league team and farm system behind it when he took over and he may have sped that up at least a little. They need to find impact talent with the #2 pick next year, though, and keep attacking the later rounds.
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my 2 cents
saw mcswain 2x last year. he’s gone from a thrower to a pitcher in one season after having some personal issues last winter. works both sides of the plate, three solid average pitches with a change that’s ranging plus at times, and a gamer. not likely to be more than a middle reliever but has a chance of back of the rotation Duke’ish numbers or better if he doesn’t go soft again.
mcswain over latimore all day long.
agree on freeman. better tools than grossman but not getting any attention from the pirates rovers.
d’naud has some average tools and util down the road.
sanchez will get love from the prospect systems but he rates backup receiver down the road.
saw stevenson and i’d rate him as the best hs arm they took last year though many won’t agree. he’s just further off.
how do you drop ford off knowing he was ko’d with a multiple injuries including some the org didn’t disclose? he has a ml average bat for 2b, a little cannon arm, a little speed, and nice range. he’s their 2b in 2011 if he bounces back.
tabata will get too much love from his afl action. sweet stroke, better d than he had been running, but at the end of the day if he can’t play center…
chambers will be one of that org’s surprises down the road i’d guess. he, morris, lincoln, and alvarez need some love.
not sold on cain or black yet. both have some growing up to do.
My perspective as a Pirates fan
I am a worrier, so here are my concerns:
Will Alvarez be able to play 3rd? Will he K so much that he won’t be useful?
Will Lincoln’s numbers ever match his scouting reports?
Will Tabata ever hit for power?
Why was everyone so down on Tony Sanchez? He hit for good average AND power at A ball. It seems like people are making too big a deal over past conditioning issues.
Will Alderson’s velocity come back?
How will Owens do against better competition?
Every prospect has question marks. Ours are no different. As I see it, these are the chief knocks against our top prospects.
I'm a cynical Pirate fan
-Maybe for a while, but I wouldn’t expect much range. I don’t really have a problem with moving him as I don’t see a competent first baseman in the system. The Ks are a concern, but I like the bat enough where I think he’d a star even at first
-I see a third starter and, while I have nothing to back up this opinion, I fear he may end up as a late inning reliever if he doesn’t improve his change up (but that’s pure speculation).
-I’m skeptical. He should be able to hit for average and play a pretty good RF, but I don’t see him as more than an average big leaguer.
-I still think his bat is a question mark. We have to keep in mind that his numbers were in the SAL. I don’t want to disregard the pre-draft scouting until he hits at higher levels. If he repeats his performance next year in the FSL, I’ll be a much bigger believer.
-It wasn’t just his fastball, his curveball wasn’t as good this year either. There’s a reason he was traded for Freddy Sanchez.
-I like Owens, but we’ll see what happens.
The prospect that’s most impressed me this year has been Chase d’Arnaud.
What were/are the concerns with Sanchez's bat?
by houksyndrome on Dec 15, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
per BA
Offensively, Sanchez has solid-average power, but his bat is not a sure thing. He punishes fastballs but struggles mightily against breaking balls, though he’s an intelligent enough hitter to lay off breaking stuff that he cannot hit. He has a mature approach at the plate and excellent makeup on the field and off.
Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for.
I have little experience playing baseball, so I may be way off base here. Don’t most players struggle mightily to hit breaking balls? I thought the whole idea was to recognize breaking balls and then lay off of them unless you have 2 strikes and it is gonna be a strike. It sounds like he does a good job of doing that.
by houksyndrome on Dec 15, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
Well
It depends how much he struggles against breaking balls, if he has trouble hitting ones that are thrown for strikes, that’s a pretty big problem even if he lays off the ones out of the zone. I think that’s what the report is saying, but I’m not entirely sure.
I see, that makes sense
BTW, if you are a fellow Pirates fan you might be interested in these sites too:
by houksyndrome on Dec 15, 2009 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
I'm a member of this board
http://www.changeinatmosphere.com/forum/index.php?
I post under the name of jeffr92, but it’s definitely not a board for the faint of heart.
grades
Von Rosenberg will get at least a C+…..but I REALLY like him and might go to B-. I haven’t decided yet.
Alvarez is an A.
Should have them done tomorrow afternoon.
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