Halladay/Cliff Lee Supposedly Traded
by cwhitman412 on Dec 14, 2009 4:07 PM EST
134 comments
Halladay to Philly, Lee to Seattle. SI.com reports hit. http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/status/6673019520 and http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/12/14/phillies.halladay.lee/index.html?eref=BrkNews
Holy shit.
I have nothing else to say.
Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler. Filler.
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Guess Jays return
Jays = Truinfel, D. Brown, Morrow and Gose
Phillies Halladay + Cash, Accardo,
Mariners = Lee
truinfel and Morrow for one year of Lee is a lot, but Lee is cheap this year and Seattle seems to be going for it
by JJACK on Dec 14, 2009 4:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
probably a little much for philly to give up
take Gose off there and its maybe a little more plausible
by JJACK on Dec 14, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Even with this trade, I still don't think they're a top 20-17 system
You’re name has 2k9 in it — what are you some 8 year-old who makes Pillsbury Doughboy cookies and jerks off to that bullshit video game with Tim Lincecum on the cover--
Frederick0220
by Mets2k9 on Dec 14, 2009 4:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i hear
that hamels is going to seattle.. not lee
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 4:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That's OK
I nvm all of your posts.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Dec 14, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Morosi tweets that pitcher Phillippe Aumont of the Mariners and outfielder Michael Taylor of the Phillies are among the players heading to Toronto in the trade.
by fartballs on Dec 14, 2009 5:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Aumont & Taylor
First names reported going to Toronto. That’s a solid start.
by seabass on Dec 14, 2009 5:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
97.5 The Fanatic Reported (Philadelphia)
The Mariners are sending Aumont, Saunders, and Gillies to Toronto. NBC Sports also has Taylor going to Toronto.
Although, The Fanatic also said that Toronto wanted the Mariners’ prospects because they were all “Canadian pitchers” which is at least good for a chuckle.
by ajake57 on Dec 14, 2009 5:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Solid return
for a great pitcher
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Dec 14, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ATTN Minnesota:
This is how you trade your ace…
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Dec 14, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gomez and Guerra were both top prospects at the time
Humber was the year before, and Mulvey was pretty highly regarded as well.
"I see the job in bigger terms. Paperwork, that’s false hustle... Know what I’m sayin’?"
by Evan_S on Dec 14, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
-1
Top prospects in the Mets system does not equal actual top prospects.
Everybody and their mother knew at the time Santana was traded the Twins left a lot of talent on the table, fast forward to the present and there’s zero doubt.
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Dec 14, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, no
Pretty much everyone who follows prospects poo-pooed the deal at the time. Guerra already had his sudden loss of velocity and Humber had already stumbled. Mulvey was thought of as a solid end of rotation innings eater. Gomez was the supposed centerpiece, but even he had some big blemishes (which still carry with him today).
by guru4u on Dec 14, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fairness
In fairness to the Twins, it doesn’t appear as though Halladay exercised quite the same sort of vigorous action in trying to find his way to a particular team. The Twins were limited to the Red Sox, the Yankees, and the Mets. The BoSox very nearly had a deal in place, and after that fell through, the Yankees balked at the price of Hughes/Joba AND Kennedy. Thus, the market was limited to the Mets and as noted below, Gomez and Guerra were thought of far more highly than they are presently (Guerra, in particular, was viewed as a lottery ticket and the memory of the another such player, Francisco Liriano, was very fresh in Minnesota’s mind.)
by GuyinNY on Dec 14, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Yeah, guys Minnesota HAD to trade Santana to the Mets
how in the world would you trade Santana to the AL East and the Teams you’re trying to beat year in and year out to get to the world series…
At the time I was PISSED off at Billy Smith because I knew he could have gotten more
thats not to say Terry Ryan or myself or whoever could have done all that much better…
Rene Tosoni is good.
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Dec 14, 2009 8:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who did the Jays have?
Phillies, Yankees, Sox? Maybe the Angels?
"Chicks dig the long ball, although fat chicks will settle for warning track power" - Nick Diamond
by hero66 on Dec 14, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well ...
I figure that is speculation b/c all 3 M’s guys are Canucks, but I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it were Aumont, Taylor and 2 others from M’s. Whether that is Saunders and Gillies I don’t know, but it would be odd for the Jays to acquire 3 different OF in the deal. I think it could end up being 1 of those 2 and someone else from M’s, such as Morrow, Triunfel, Ramirez, Liddi, etc. really depends on the money moving around too.
by jayjay on Dec 14, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Blue Jays are going to have a strong outfield. Does Taylor start the year in the majors or minors?
by acie4mvp on Dec 14, 2009 5:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
jays fan here
Regaring acie4mvp’s post I would start Taylor in the majors but that’s just me.
by hrv1978 on Dec 14, 2009 6:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
With latest details
Phillies have given up, Donald, Marson, Carassco, Knapp, Brown/Taylor for Halladay/3Years and cash+. Thats a steal. FWIW.
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by JDSussman on Dec 14, 2009 6:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
It is a steal because Brown is the only ++ prospect on here with Taylor just behind as a top 50-75 guy.
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by JDSussman on Dec 14, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is the difference between Taylor and Brown that significant?
Taylor seems to have somewhat more power, and has excellent at either one or two levels higher (depending on whether you think Taylor has proven himself in AAA yet or not). On the other hand, Brown is 2 years younger. Scouting reports seems generally about even, maybe leaning a bit to Brown. I can certainly understand preferring Brown to Taylor, though honestly I think I’d rather Taylor (I like that he’s closer)
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by OldProspects on Dec 14, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brown is terrific athlete
He’ll be a plus defender in RF. While Taylor isn’t a slouch, he isn’t in Brown’s league. He doesn’t have the same speed, arm and I don’t think he projects as much OBA skills as Brown.
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by JDSussman on Dec 14, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
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by OldProspects on Dec 14, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly don't see much difference.
Both guys are big OFs with impressive tools.
Dom Brown’s awkwardness at the plate kind’ve scares me.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
50-75?
Taylor is a top 30 guy IMO.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with this.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 14, 2009 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can see him anywhere from 30-75
The point was that he isn’t an elite talent like Brown. I like Taylor but I think people underestimate how special a corner OFer needs to be to be a productive MLB player. He will be a solid regular.
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by JDSussman on Dec 14, 2009 9:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I see Taylor's ceiling as being
.305/.385/.530
I really can’t see Brown doing much more than that.
If Brown were projected to be a CF, it would be another story.
However, that’s not the case.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Taylor
I don’t think Taylor profiles to maintain that kind of average. He is probably higher than I said (again the point was that Brown was better) but I probably spoke to soon, I haven’t done a list yet. However, I’ve always said there isn’t really a difference in these rankings. Top 100 is still top 1% of minor leaguers.
I see a player with a 8%-10% walk percentage, above average power (200 ISO), solid defense and decent but unspectacular average (.270-280). I think his 2009 is a good representation of his ability. Given that, and average defense, he could be a 2-3 win player. That said, I see Brown as a player with star potential, 4-6 win player.
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by JDSussman on Dec 14, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
eh
I really like Taylor . . .not quite to variablesdont’s “has a ceiling of being the best hitter in baseball” level, but I’m definitely big on him.
I really don’t get the Brown hype. Not sure his bat is quite as good as people seem to want to think it is based on his 2009. Still a very good prospect, but I’d take Taylor and I wouldn’t think that long about it.
by mrkupe on Dec 15, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
scouts don't want Taylor over Brown
neither do the Phillies. I really don’t see a reason to like him better.
by daveh33 on Dec 15, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know the scouts don't want Brown over Taylor
Brown is both more athletic (not that Taylor is a slouch) and younger, you really can’t blame the scouts for taking him. He’s also probably more versatile as a defender, as most everybody seems to think that Taylor’s size precludes anything more than LF at the major league level. Defense does count for a lot . . .not that you’d know it from looking at a minorleagueball.com community prospect list, but I digress.
Taylor’s bat IS better, though. There are things not to like about Brown’s bat at this point, and Taylor absolutely crushed AA. Even those who prefer Brown at this point note that Taylor looks like a safe bet to be a major league regular . . .I don’t think the same can be said of Brown just yet, no matter how much he may impress sometimes.
by mrkupe on Dec 15, 2009 1:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what about Brown makes him unsafe to be a MLB regular?
sorry I just don’t think that’s true.
by daveh33 on Dec 15, 2009 9:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Saying D'Arnaud Now
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4742072
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by cwhitman412 on Dec 14, 2009 6:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Aumont, D'Arnaud, and Taylor isn't bad for Toronto
although I do think they could do better.
Of course that’s assuming that the Jays see Aumont as an SP and not a RP.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 14, 2009 6:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
According to a source who spoke with two teams involved in the trade, Toronto would get highly regarded Mariners pitching prospect Phillippe Aumont, Phillies catching prospect Travis d’Arnaud and another Phillies prospect in exchange for Halladay. Indications are that the Phillies have balked at Toronto’s repeated requests for outfielder Domonic Brown, and the Phillies are offering highly touted outfielder Michael Taylor instead.
Seattle would also send two prospects to Philadelphia in exchange for Lee, who is a year away from free agency
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 6:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
j0on heyman
hearing aumont is likely in #mariners pending deal for cliff lee. perhaps michael saunders, too. morrow may stay.
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 7:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Toronton Needs to Be Smart
Learn from Minnesota’s mistake and get at least one major league player.
Who didn’t know that a package of the raw Carlos Gomez and Deolis Guerra plus overrated Kevin Mulvey(Mets fans overrating of course as usual just like the Yankees) and the average Phil Humber was a bad return for Minnesota?
The Blue Jays better not come away with just Phil Aumount(who may or may not be a starter), Travis D’Arnaud(a Low A ball player) and Michael Taylor(good prospect but no major league ABs) for the 2nd best pitcher in baseball.
Couldn’t they have gotten JA Happ last summer? They couldn’t get him now obviously but get someone like Brandon Morrow who could be your closer.
by UncleBuck44 on Dec 14, 2009 7:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely disagree
Aumont/d’Arnaud/Taylor for one year of Halladay (at $15M) is a great deal. If they get more than that, I’d consider it a huge win for Toronto.
by jar75 on Dec 14, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Taylor...
…is as much a sure thing as you’ll get in a prospect. He’s not young, he’s not raw, and he’s absolutely mashed at every level the past few years.
by metafour on Dec 14, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Taylor
Taylor is the only prospect I really like in the deal. Aumount was handled poorly by Seattle and has had elbow soreness in the past and is now a relief pitcher that might head back to the rotation and might be good. Arnaud is a Low A catcher that hit .255 though he’s good defensively. Still he’s 3 years away. And this was for the 2nd best pitcher in baseball.
I’d be upset if I were a Blue Jay fan.
One year plus exclusive negotiating rights is a huge deal for Philadelphia. If Toronto let New York have a shot a Halladay next winter in free agency, the Phillies wouldn’t stand a chance.
The Rockies got Carlos Gonzalez, Huston Street and Greg Smith for what could have been 1 year of Matt Holliday who was moving out of Coors Field so it was risky. Now that is how you should do it. Street struggled in 2008 but he had been fine in 2007. The stuff was still there and it showed in 2009. Greg Smith was a good back of the rotation starter in 2008 and was an excellent part of the deal. He got hurt but that is baseball for you. He could still be good in 2010. Carlos Gonzalez was a toolsy major league ready youngster and has turned into a good major leaguer.
by UncleBuck44 on Dec 14, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not disagreeing that the Rox got an awesome haul, but
Greg Smith was a good back of the rotation starter in 2008 and was an excellent part of the deal. He got hurt but that is baseball for you. He could still be good in 2010.
Greg Smith was not a good BOR starter at all. He only looked decent because of the park. 4.82 FIP, 1.28 K/BB, 20.3 LD%, 5.36 tRA, 5.30 xFIP… Not a good pitcher, at all, and a huge regression risk when the A’s traded him. He was nothing more than a throw-in.
I’m not disagreeing in the slightest sense that the first Holliday trade was stupid for the A’s from the onset, just the point on Smith.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 14, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As a throw in
He was still a pretty good throw in after a solid closer needing a change of scenary and a top OF prospect with big league experience.
The Rockies were back in the playoffs this year because they got major league ready help.
by UncleBuck44 on Dec 14, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Taylor alone is worth more than the Mets package for Santana.
by Bravesin07 on Dec 14, 2009 8:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
not exactly true
Any factual evidence at all towards this rumor?
Carlos Carrasco, Alex White along with Tanner Scheppers to the Twins
Glen Perkins and Beau Mills to the Rangers
Francisco Liriano and the rights to Boof Bonser + a PTBL to the Indians
(will Smoak and Feliz go to Fla. for Josh Johnson?)
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Dec 14, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That could be true.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so as it stands Jays get.....
Travis D’Arnaud
Michael Taylor
Tyson Gillies
Phillip Aumont
Mariners get:
Cliff Lee
Phillies get:
Doc Halladay and a prospect from the M’s ?
is that correct?
Any factual evidence at all towards this rumor?
Carlos Carrasco, Alex White along with Tanner Scheppers to the Twins
Glen Perkins and Beau Mills to the Rangers
Francisco Liriano and the rights to Boof Bonser + a PTBL to the Indians
(will Smoak and Feliz go to Fla. for Josh Johnson?)
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Dec 14, 2009 8:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Now they're saying Drabek's involved.
This deal just got so much sweeter for Toronto if they get Drabek and one of Taylor/Brown.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 14, 2009 8:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Drabek and one of Taylor/Brown are involved, I’ll kill someone. I mean, in what universe would the Phillies need to give up Cliff Lee, and Domonic Brown, and Kyle Drabek, to get Roy Halladay?
by PhillyFriar on Dec 14, 2009 8:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it looks inane from the Phils side.
I can’t see more than one of Drabek, Taylor, or Brown being involved. Hell, even one of Drabek/Taylor/Brown going for a 1 WAR upgrade + extension window (that’s the diff b/w Lee and Doc) .
I have trouble understanding this deal from the Phils’ side, period. The extension is freaking awesome, but the extension window in and of itself isn’t worth so much, and the difference b/w Doc and Lee is 1 WAR, tops. It makes awesome sense from Toronto’s side and it looks like Seattle may be making off like bandits, but yeah.
The bulk of the top prospects should be coming from Seattle. Period.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 14, 2009 8:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nevermind that.
forgot that Philly is probably getting prospects from Seattle…
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 14, 2009 8:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Drabek
If the Jays got Drabek then the package they’re getting would start to look good.
They are still just getting prospects but at least they would have landed a legit top of the rotation SP prospect that is only one year away from the bigs and has had success at AA.
BTW, the Phillies would be getting screwed if they gave up Drabeck and Taylor and Lee and everyone they gave up to get Lee for Roy Halladay and a prospect.
by UncleBuck44 on Dec 14, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Drabek is overrated
He is a #3 starter, not an ace.
by Bravesin07 on Dec 14, 2009 8:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Drabek is not a #3 starter...
he is a prospect with top of the rotation potential.
by joegonzo on Dec 14, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Drabek
Let’s settle on him being a #2 starter ;)
by UncleBuck44 on Dec 14, 2009 8:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Drabek red flags
Lefties tatooed him in AA at over a .325 clip
K-Rate Dropped a ton in AA
Flyball pitcher
No projection left
needs to work on a changeup
by Bravesin07 on Dec 14, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All prospects have red flags.
Prospects that don’t have red flags are almost nonexistent, and those that don’t pretty much NEVER get traded. You’re not going to see Stephen Strasburg and Jason Heyward exchanging hands this offseason, and even they have red flags.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 14, 2009 8:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
on the other hand
-People praise the progress he’s made with his changeup in the last year
-His stuff is awfully good as is, he doesn’t need projection
-He struck out plenty of guys at the lower level, and it wasn’t a real surprise to see him drop off a bit later in his first full year after TJ in any case
-Some of the best pitchers in the major leagues give up plenty of flyballs, so I fail to see this point
Not that he doesn’t have things to work on, but man, the guy looks awfully good both statistically and scouting-wise given his age and experience level.
by mrkupe on Dec 14, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Looking at his stats, it seems like with the exception of a few months in A+ ball this year, he’s never been exceptionally good. He’s never struck out more than a guy per inning. He’s never had terrific control. His FIPs have been quite solidly in the low 4s, though he did make it to 3.79 in AA this year. This doesn’t mean he can’t become a very good pitcher, but it does seems like he has a ways to go before he becomes a good major league pitcher.
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by OldProspects on Dec 14, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well sure
At his age, almost everybody has a long way to go before they become a good major league pitcher. Unfortunately – and maybe this is the biggest thing to be concerned about, IMO – between injury and expected fatigue with an aggressive promotion in the first year back from injury, we’ve rarely gotten to see Drabek at his best.
At his best, Drabek is tremendous. Multiple good pitches with outstanding command (which is not necessarily as simple as low walks/high Ks, it’s a scouting thing too) and preternatural pitching savvy. That was the guy we saw in the FSL this year.
by mrkupe on Dec 15, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He is overrated.
Those K numbers in AA do not correlate with those of a future ace.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Once the extension is complete, the Phillies are expected send three prospects to Toronto. A source identified those prospects as Drabek, outfielder Michael Taylor and catcher Travis D’Arnaud. The Blue Jays would also get a prospect from Seattle, possibly Canadian pitcher Phillippe Aumont. The Phillies could also end up with a prospect from Seattle. The Mariners are a key to the deal as they are expected to get Cliff Lee and his $9 million salary from the Phillies. The Phillies have a strict $140 million payroll so moving Lee appears to be a necessity.
Halladay will make $15.75 million in 2010. The Phillies are expected to cover the bulk of that salary with the $9 million they are freeing up by trading Lee, as well as a $6 million payout from the Blue Jays
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 8:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wow
I think there has to be something else to this deal because Philadelphia is giving up a lot.
by jar75 on Dec 14, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the prospect the phiillies recieve from seattle
has to be a great prospect.. cause taylor lee and drabeks is wayy too much for halladay
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1000
I have no problem giving up Lee and either Drabek or Taylor, but all 3 is highway robbery for the M’s/Jays.
by Cormican on Dec 14, 2009 9:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's apparently Aumont to the Phillies
by cowboy4eva on Dec 14, 2009 10:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll believe it all when I see it. I’d rather keep Drabek and let the M’s keep their future middle reliever.
by Cormican on Dec 14, 2009 11:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if that's the trade
congrats to anthoupoulous. While I think Drabek is a bit overrated (and overhyped), the fact that he could pull off a trade and get a guy largely considered as an elite prospect surprises me. I don’t really think that much of the rest of the package (Aumont – pen arm, Taylor is nice, d’Arnaud is interesting enough)
I’m also surprised Amaro forked over Drabek.
by toonsterwu on Dec 14, 2009 8:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Zdurenick also seriously won if that's true
Seriously. I really, really dislike the Mariners right now.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 14, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Heard Phillies might get Truinfel
Third baseman of the future, if that’s the case Phillies are smart.
by Bravesin07 on Dec 14, 2009 8:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
so seattle is giving up
aumonte and trunfiel for lee?
what a steal..
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's 1st degree theft, son.
Aumont could end up being an injury-plagued middle reliever, while Triunfel could be a ZERO power 3B or 2B.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone have a 1-2 that is even comparable to Felix-Lee?
by JayWise on Dec 14, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Webb/Haren
I would def take Felix/Lee b/c Webb is an injury question mark.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, King Felix and Crazy Clifford
could both post 2.50 ERAs next year out of the AL.
Well done, Mr. Z.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but nobody can beat the red sox rotation of
lester beckett lackey buchholtz and matsuzaka…
that is insane..
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where is the offensive coming from
by Bravesin07 on Dec 14, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Red Sox had the 2nd highest OPS in Major League Baseball
last year, and their offense could even be better this year.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
offense can be better this year?
loosing bay makes them better?
another decline frlom pappi?
what do you think makes them better this year?
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
-Full season of Victor Martinez
-Scutaro instead of Nick Green (not a big Scutaro fan, but that’s an upgrade)
Mike Cameron should be decent. Whether they’re worse or not is yet to be seen, but I don’t think it’s much of a downgrade.
by jar75 on Dec 14, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What jar said.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Cameron is not much worse than Bay — check the stats.
Ellsbury should progress this year, in terms of power and discipline.
Scutaro will hit better than Lowrie/Green/Gonzalez.
We have V-Mart for the whole season now.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Buccholz in the rotation?
Or are they bringing Wakefield back? Anybody have an update on the ageless wonder? Gotta love them knucklers!!!!
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Dec 14, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they better put clay in the rotation
what a waste of talent if they keep him out for wakefield
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's a lock, barring a trade for Gonzo/Votto/Prince/Cabrera/Zimmerman
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Carpenter/Wainwright
Carpenter/Wainwright remain the best 1-2 in baseball.
by UncleBuck44 on Dec 14, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here is a few
Cain and Lincecum, Halladay and Hamels, Lester and Beckett, and I could even see Billz and Kershaw matching them in 2010..
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Dec 14, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
IF he rebounds. Big if.
Taking back an injured prospect with MAJOR questions about his bat while giving up Drabek and Co? Not cool.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 14, 2009 8:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm waiting for this twitter post to be shot down
Seriously.
Lacking logic. I’m just envisioning Anthopoulous sitting back with a set price for Doc and letting Ruben and Zdurencik battle it out. And GMZ is winning hardcore.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 14, 2009 9:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Smith has got to be embarrassed tonight how bad he got had by the Mets
by Bravesin07 on Dec 14, 2009 9:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The stipulations of the two trades were still way different.
1- The Twins got 4 prospects who got varying B grades (I think 2 got B+, and 1 got B-) from Sickels at the time. 4 B prospects is nothing to sneeze at. That’s the luck of prospects.
2- Santana’s extension was more than double the money of Halladay’s. Way more teams could afford
3- The extension window was leverage in the Jays’ favor for Halladay, since the Jays had the choice of whether to give the window, but it was leverage against the Twins, since Santana demanded the extension in order to waive his NTC. Halladay didn’t demand that he get an extension in order to waive his NTC. Huge, huge difference.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 14, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All the Mets prospects had major red flags
by Bravesin07 on Dec 14, 2009 9:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Fasho.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?
All the Mets prospects had major red flags?
bravesin07: i’ve never met you so maybe you’re a nice guy. but you come off here as a complete idiot. The prospects the Mets gave up WERE ALL GOOD. saying that they all had red flags is what you think two years later now that you are looking back on the deal. I’ve never read one intelligent comment from you. i know that you are better than this.
by psugator on Dec 15, 2009 8:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
um...
you’re wrong. There wasn’t a single blue-chipper in the bunch in that trade. The prospects were all interesting, and Bravesin07 often says things that are hyperbole, over-simplified, or wrong, but he’s 100% right here.
Carlos Gomez: BA peak ranking #52. Always had intriguing tools unsupported by a good performance record. His best numbers in the minors were his .281/.350/423 line as a 20 y/o in double-A. Solid, but not exactly a world-beater.
Phillip Humber: BA peak rank #50, but that was A) 3 years before the trade, and B) right after he was drafted in the 1st round and before he had pitched in the minors. Never supported a prospect ranking higher than 73 with actual performance in the minors. At the time of the trade, he was a solid back-of-the-rotation guy with some #3 potential left in him.
Mulvey: Never made a BA top-100.
Guerra: BA Peak Rank #35. The first prospect to receive the undeserved Latin American teenager who signed for 6 figures bump. If you go back to the community prospect rankings from the years where Guerra was still on the map, you’ll find me and a lot of other people talking about the lunacy of ranking a guy high before he has a single major league pitch on the pure fact that he’s 17-18 and therefore must have “upside.” Little hint here: guys throwing in the mid-80s don’t have upside until their pitches are good enough to get major league hitters out. People responded with “you’re stooopid! he’s 17! of course he’ll add velocity.” Anyone who knows anything about pitchers, however, knew that this was an absurd argument. Many, many pitchers throw as hard as they will ever throw between the ages of 16-19. At least as many as the number of guys who gain substantial velocity.
So yeah, all 4 had either question marks or really limited upside. This package is far better.
by slamcactus on Dec 15, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
All those prospects were either obviously flawed or had big question marks.
Gomez: Never hit… ever.
Mulvey: Low ceiling, so-so performance
Humber: Older version of Mulvey
Guerra: Poor numbers, project
Mulvey and Humber were certainly not guys I would consider “GOOD.” Gomez and Guerra were all projection and no performance, so while I wouldnt call them “bad” I certainly didn’t consider them “GOOD.”
by alskor on Dec 15, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+100
not even comparable. The Santana deal was a joke from day 1. Hindsight has nothing to do with it. They went to quantity over quality, because the Mets system has no quality. It’s amazing that even FMart wasn’t involved in that trade, their one true prospect!
by rmarx on Dec 15, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there may be a reason that seattle is giving up next to nothing
maybe they are not acquiring lee.. maybe its happ or blanton or maybe less likely hammels
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 9:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
so maybe the phils are only trading happ or blanton to seattle
cause they are giving up wayy to much for halladay if its lee along with those prospect.. but happ along with those prospects sounds fine..
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dont these organizations realize
what they’re doing to people like us?
I’m tired of checking for updates
Who loves orange soda?
by Kenan and Kel on Dec 14, 2009 9:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
just to add to this fun
ESPN is saying that Halladay and the Phillies are close on a 3 year/$60 extension. And probably of greater interest to our prospect hounds, they’re also saying that either Drabek or Happ will be in the package going to Toronto.
Interesting . . .having to give up both Cliff Lee and Drabek/Happ in a package for Halladay really doesn’t sound that appealing to me, I think Lee and Halladay aren’t THAT far from being a push.
I wonder if Lee just isn’t really big on signing a deal before he goes on the free agent market and the Phillies would rather make sure they have long-term security in their rotation?
by mrkupe on Dec 14, 2009 9:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Doc is unreal
I like Lee but Halladay is arguably the best pitcher in the game. What he did each year in the AL Beast was truly amazing. He is going to eat NL hitters alive.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Dec 14, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
espn now says
SEA: Lee
TOR: D’Arnaud, Drabek, Taylor
PHIL: Gillies, Aumont, Doc
still doesnt sound right tho.. cause seattle is giving up a reliever and a questionable CF for Cliff freakin lee
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 10:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
What did Philly give up for Lee? Injured pitcher who is years away, headcase/stagnating Carrasco, AAAA Donald, and a backup catcher (Marson)?
by metafour on Dec 14, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't be surprised
Jack Z is good.
Gillies, Aumont, Triunfel…all are pretty overhyped. Not surprised if he gets Lee for them.
"Chicks dig the long ball, although fat chicks will settle for warning track power" - Nick Diamond
by hero66 on Dec 14, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and he gets to keep trunfiel
it looks like
by matthewmafa on Dec 14, 2009 10:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jayson Stark amends this a bit.
SEA: Lee
TOR: Taylor, Drabek, d’Arnaud, Gillies
PHIL: Halladay, Aumont
If this is true, Jack Zduriencik is a… pardon my French… fucking genius.
Lookout Landing just coined the phrase “zjackulating” to respond to whatever awesomness Jack Z pulls out of nowhere, causing us blogosphere denizens to go crazy.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Dec 14, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Source:
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Dec 14, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Zjackulating."
Good shit, mang.
I would really like baseball to be back in the glorious state of Washington.
No more hoops — Oklahoma City Bombers over teh Sonic teh Hedgecocks.
C’mon now.
Seacawks are garbage, too.
Let’s go Mariners, yo.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 14, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ur mistakin
gillies is going to philly according to that link..
so SEA: Lee
TOR: D’Arnaud, Drabek, Taylor
PHIL: Gillies, Aumont, Doc
by matthewmafa on Dec 15, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2nd amendment
Jack Z had to bear more arms…he also reportedly traded Juan Ramirez to Philly. Still a steal, but Juan Ramirez is a solid power pitching prospect, so the excitement needs to be tempered somewhat.
The 2008 Rogelio Moret League Fantasy Baseball Champions!
by The Congo Hammer on Dec 15, 2009 3:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Blanton and Happ both had to take physicals...
so good chance we dont know a good portion of the actual deal yet…
by alskor on Dec 15, 2009 12:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm rather perplexed with the Philly angle in this deal
Right now, the suggestion seems to be
Gillies/Aumont/Ramirez to Philly
Lee to Seattle
Drabek/Taylor/D’Arnaud to Toronto
My question is … does Philly need those prospects that badly? Why not just hold onto Lee for a year? Aumont’s interesting, but could be a pen arm. Ramirez has quality stuff but a lot of refinement needed. I’m just not that big on Gillies. Why not build a great rotation of Halladay/Lee/Hamels at the top for a year, let Lee go, collect the picks, and move on? Was it really a monetary issue? If so, I’d be a bit surprised that they couldn’t get a better package than Aumont/Ramirez/Gillies from someone else, but maybe I’m just not all that enthused by those 3 guys.
As for the other two teams, I think it’s absolutely great for Seattle. All three of those prospects had huge red flags. As for Toronto, solid deal. I still think Kyle Drabek is overhyped, but they managed to land an elite prospect, which really stuns me. I guess that was the price they paid for getting to talk to Halladay and to get him to agree to an extension. Taylor’s a solid addition. I’m not huge on D’Arnaud, but he’s interesting.
by toonsterwu on Dec 15, 2009 6:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Payroll.
They had to trade a more expensive player in order to fit Doc into the payroll. Lee fit the bill. Although, now the signing of Polanco, although it is an awesome deal in a vacuum, looks questionable.
I don’t understand this move at all from the Phils’ side, but then I am NOT a fan of Gillies, at all. His 2009 had something to do with a .395 BABIP and 12% LD%. That just screams “fluke” to me. I’m willing to give Juan Ramirez the benefit of the doubt, simply because he pitched in an extreme hitters’ environment (High Desert is NOT where you want to pitch, period).
I definitely think they could get a package greater than Aumont/Ramirez/Gillies, or at least get one elite prospect and filler. The package for Halladay should NOT be that much greater than the Lee package, as Lee makes less money. If two top 30 prospects are going for Halladay, at least one should be coming for Lee. Period. Well, the Jays are kicking in salary.
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
by Blicks on Dec 15, 2009 7:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get Philly's angle on this one either
Trading one very good pitcher, for an even better pitcher, but then tossing away away top prospects as well? I don’t get it after how well Lee has pitched the last few years.
"Ninety percent I'll spend on good times, women and Irish Whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
by strums on Dec 15, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not Taylor
Since Taylor has been traded to the A’s for Brett Wallace
You’re name has 2k9 in it — what are you some 8 year-old who makes Pillsbury Doughboy cookies and jerks off to that bullshit video game with Tim Lincecum on the cover--
Frederick0220
by Mets2k9 on Dec 15, 2009 12:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Taylor for Wallace
per MLB Trade Rumors, Toronto is flipping Taylor to the A’s for Brett Wallace…crazy
by milkmanmax on Dec 15, 2009 12:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
They're saying the Phills are trading him
You’re name has 2k9 in it — what are you some 8 year-old who makes Pillsbury Doughboy cookies and jerks off to that bullshit video game with Tim Lincecum on the cover--
Frederick0220
by Mets2k9 on Dec 15, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe they posted that originally, but now MLBTR is quoting Olney
The Blue Jays will trade outfielder Michael Taylor to the A’s for third base prospect Brett Wallace, according to ESPN.com’s Buster Olney.
by jibs on Dec 15, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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