BA ATL TOP 10
1. Jason Heyward, of
2. Freddie Freeman, 1b
3. Julio Teheran, rhp
4. Mike Minor, lhp
5. Craig Kimbrel, rhp
6. Christian Bethancourt, c
7. Randall Delgado, rhp
8. Zeke Spruill, rhp
9. Cody Johnson, of
10. Adam Milligan, of
The one thing that screams out at me is Delgado's somewhat low placement. The guy had a really good year as a 19-year-old in the Sally League. He had a 49/141 BB/K in 121 innings and was even better at the end. Over his last 10 starts, he had a 2.95 ERA with a 9/65 BB/K in 55 innings.
A case could be made that he should be as high as 4, which is where Sickels put him. If you're talking about ceiling, then I don't know how Minor can be ranked above Delgado. Minor may have a higher floor and he may a safer bet to be something in the majors but he just appears to lack the ceiling Delgado has. I've seen Sowers comps on Minor.
Kimbrel's 103 strikeouts in 60 innings are eye-popping, but so are his 45 walks and he's limited to the bullpen. Admittedly, I don't know a lot about Bethancourt and while his numbers look decent (especially given his age/position), Delgado has dominated a higher level of the minors.
Sickels noted Delgado has been underrated. This list is another example of that.
I was more impressed with Sickels' Braves top 10:
1) Jason Heyward, OF.
2) Freddie Freeman, 1B
3) Julio Teheran, RHP
4) Randall Delgado, RHP
5) Craig Kimbrel, RHP
6) Mike Minor, LHP
7) Christian Bethancourt, C
8) J.J. Hoover, RHP
9) Zeke Spruill, RHP
10) David Hale, RHP
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I like the Delgado placement
I had him pegged as high as 8, but I can live with a #7. His command alone keeps him this low. If he can improve in the Carolina league next year, a jump is merited.
Dont forget, a lot of times, numbers have very little bearing on a prospects status. A minor league prospects main goal is to refine and polish of their ability and tools, in spite of results.
I don't think...
they don’t like him. They’re just being conservative while acknowledging that he has huge upside. 19-year-old Latin American pitchers have ridiculously high attrition rates. I’m a big Delgado fan, but I see him more as a really strong breakout candidate than as a guy who’s already done enough to deserve a high ranking.
He didn't even make their top 20 in the SAL
Considering this is a BA list, I find their sudden caution surprising. And even if you assume that they’re just being cautious, I think Bethancourt is much more risky than Delgado is.
That...
was a different guy, and neither Matt Forman or Bill Ballew are their primary guys who do the top-100 list. That job goes to Callis, Manuel, and Lingo (and sometimes they expand to a 4th or 5th guy to help compile the list). BA isn’t a hive mind, and the team lists will often vary considerably.
Forman said that Delgado was his #21 guy in the Sally, and Ballew ranked him 7th in a pretty good system. That doesn’t tell me they don’t like the guy, it just tells me that so far there seems to be an emerging consensus that he’s not a very safe bet. It’s not like we’re talking about a guy who hits the upper-90s here. Delgado sits at 92-93 and has promising but not yet consistent secondary stuff. All of this spells either decent #2 or very good #3 starter if he reaches his upside. I don’t really see him as a guy with true ace potential, and I don’t think BA does either.
If he has a truly dominant season next year I’ll start to agree that BA has a weird aversion to him. For now, it just seems like the scouts and managers they’re talking to see him as more of a project than a current top prospect.
On the Bethancourt ranking, the writeup seems to indicate that Ballew talked to 2-3 scouts who absolutely loved him, and that influenced his ranking. I’m not saying he was right or wrong to put him where he did, but the balance between the usefulness of stats v. scouting reports tips heavily in favor of the scouts when you’re talking about rookie ball players.
Delgado's improvement...
This probably didn’t effect BA’s rankings much, but it’s worth noting that Delgado’s improvement doesn’t on the surface really seem to reflect as much of a change in underlying skills as we’d like. Looking at the monthly splits, it’s easy to conclude that a light went on in July. This probably has a little bit of truth to it, but not as much as you’d think from the surface stats. Here are the relevant peripheral numbers:
Pre-July 1:
K%: 25%
BB%: 10.7%
FB%: 27.3
HR/FB: 15.5
Post-July 1:
K%: 27.5%
BB%: 7.5
FB%: 26.3
HR/FB: 1.9
Note I’m not going into LD%, because minor league data on LD% is worthless.
The difference in K% between the first half and second half is 6 strikeouts over 265 batters faced. In other words, it MAY reflect a slight improvement in skills, but those rates are pretty close. The walk-rate is a pretty significant improvement, and we can probably assume reflects a bona fide uptick in Delgado’s control. The HR/FB, however, is all over the place. Major league average for HR/FB is around 11%, and minor leaguers hit far fewer home runs than major leaguers do. There’s probably a reason that a scout can give you for why Delgado stopped giving up home runs at a ridiculous rate (such as improving curveball command, which is usually a huge issue for guys prone to throwing meatballs), but the truth is that neither 15.5% or 1.9% could possibly be evidence of Delgado’s true ability to prevent the longball.
The reality of Randall Delgado’s 2009 season is a little more complicated than “he sucked in the first half, something clicked, and then he was lights out.” Delgado was never as bad as his first half ERA suggested, and while he improved a little, he wasn’t as good as his second half stats indicate, either. That leaves us somewhere in the middle. Understanding that, I don’t have much of a problem with people wanting to see more before labeling him as some kind of blue-chipper.
The one question with Delgado has been control
A substantial drop in his BB rate seems like a pretty big deal, whether or not his HR/FB went down too.
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There are actually...
two big questions with Delgado: control and command. Nobody’s saying Delgado didn’t improve, but he also wasn’t as effective as the surface stats indicate. A guy with his K/BB numbers with a 3.5 ERA in the Sally league (approx. what he’d have given normal HR rates) would excite people substantially less than the ~2.9 he put up over the season’s second half. All I’m saying is temper expectations, because Delgado is still prone to guys making hard contact against him.
Just to be clear...
Delgado clearly improved in the second half, but I think the conclusions to draw from those improvements are more along the lines of “this guy has serious breakout potential” than “this guy has clearly broken out and is pitching like an elite-level prospect.”
I agree with that
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
Very minor detail, but...
I have to let you know that I appreciate you for not using minor league LD%. As you say, the minor league LD% numbers are absolutely worthless. But using FB% seems to be perfectly fine considering a ball in the air is a ball in the air.
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by nobodyinparticular on Nov 5, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Is it though?
If you have a problem with minor league LD%, it’s because you don’t trust the people who judge the difference between a line drive and a fly ball at various parks, since a ball in the air has to be one or the other.
If that’s the case, then isn’t FB% just as likely to be skewed as LD%? Really, the only balls that can’t be misclassified are ground balls.
I wasn't particularly clear with what I said...
I was specifically pointing to the safety in HR/FB ratio because the “FB” used there could also be classified as “ball in air” as it takes into consideration both “flyballs” and “line drives.” I believe the minor league batted ball type should be reduced to “ball in air” and “ball on ground.” This won’t tell us nearly as much as FB/LD/GB does in the majors, but at least it ensures statistical accuracy (which should be priority #1).
Therefore, I do not propose to use the FB% as found in FB/LD/GB batted ball data.
Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports
by nobodyinparticular on Nov 12, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
delgado
Matt Forman (who did the SAL Top 20): If I could have ranked a 21st player, it would have been Randall Delgado. Managers and scouts love his explosive fastball, which some had up to 96 mph this year. The biggest question marks were about his secondary stuff and his command. He’s got excellent deception out of his high three-quarters arm slot, and a nice projectable frame. I can see why people would have expected him to make the list, especially considering he’s 19 years old.
http://www.talkingchop.com/2009/10/2/1066709/no-braves-among-the-sally-leagues
Braves system is deep
How many other teams would J.J. Hoover not rank in the top 10 for? Maybe 3 at most.
Of course I think John had it right by having Hoover ahead of Milligan and Cody Johnson.
Since you’re talking about Hoover, it should be noted that in the chat he wasn’t really liked. They said he would be high in the top 30, but that his ultimate upside was only a backend/setup guy.
http://mvn.com/mlb-tossingtherosin/
by koolkerns101 on Nov 2, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
The reports that I’ve gotten on Hoover are not impressive.
Founder of www.projectprospect.com
by Adam Foster on Nov 3, 2009 4:36 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
What reports are those
I have read that he is consistently in the low 90’s touching mid 90’s numerous times over the course of a game with above average slider. What have you heard? I am shocked that he consistently gets overlooked.
I don't have my notes with me right now
but I’ll get you something later.
Founder of www.projectprospect.com
Hoover
Here’s a report that I received on Hoover:
- FB explodes out of his hand and sits 92-93
- Secondary wasn’t very good — CB can be sharp, CH is solid
- Unathletic; bad body
- Not impressed overall
It sounds like J.J. Hoover has promise. But unless I get better reports on him or he makes a good impression on me when I see him, I’m going to be cautious.
Founder of www.projectprospect.com
Scouting The Sally also commented on him
http://www.scoutingthesally.com/2009/08/rome-savannah-game-3-recap.html
For the Braves, J.J. Hoover started and chipped in a solid performance. As I consider his repertoire, he’s going to be a really tough prospect to gauge. I think I Mentioned to Josh from Braves-Nation yesterday on the game two recap thread about how difficult it is to judge older prospects at this level and Hoover is one of those guys. Good velocity, but little movement. Tight, but not biting breaking stuff. He’s a great pitcher at this level, but is the projection there? I’m just not sure.
Take that Foster!
Just kidding….
When I saw Hoover, he was pumping 90 consistently and hit 93 once or twice. The pitch lacked movement. I’ll be writing him up in full soon, but I was a big underwhelmed.
Mike Newman
http://scoutingthesally.com
Follow Me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ScoutingtheSAL
by ScoutingTheSally on Nov 4, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
Minor vs Delgado
I think Minor’s floor is so high (a 5 SP) and his probability of reaching it is so high, that almost any team would take Minor over Delgado. I know I would.
I just got on twitter.Follow me at http://twitter.com/JDSussman
I'll be trying to post lines and analysis as much as possible.
Remember: baseball guys... baseball...
I don't know
I have a hard time projecting any pitcher as having that kind of a floor, so much can happen to derail them. His biggest plus is that he probably won’t need a lot of minor league time, but his ceiling is limited. I don’t like Minor all that much, and I’d have a hard time putting him higher than 6 or 7.
I’d much rather have Randall Delgado.
being derailed is different
it implies one was going in a direction and then something inexplicable happened to change one’s course. Baring something like that, say an injury, Minor will be in the majors quickly and be giving his team valuable innings. He’ll be worth a lot move $ over his career than Delgado.
I just got on twitter.Follow me at http://twitter.com/JDSussman
I'll be trying to post lines and analysis as much as possible.
Remember: baseball guys... baseball...
minor
read this on some ridiculous braves fan blog:
Yeah. The writeup on him actually says he profiles as a "middle of the rotation" starter, as opposed to many of the draft reports which pegged him as a "back of the rotation" starter. My favorite comp for him comes from Wren who said he profiles as a Cole Hamels type pitcher. I’ll take a chance on that in the draft any day.
of course this is on the heels of Callis saying:
Was Minor a worthy first-rounder? Yes. Would have I taken him seventh overall? Not a chance.
Of course, compared to The Braves GM, Callis is much more netural in this situation. Outside of that, I think Minor’s placement is about right on both lists, and his being as high as he is more an indication non-traditional weakness in the Braves system once you get past #4 or so. The fact that Kimbrel, a risky relief prospect, is #5 is not a good sign. I’m not saying it’s a bad system, but it’s not as strong as it has been in the past. John was right about that
Spruill
I strongly believe that Zeke Spruill will win over a ton of people next season.
Founder of www.projectprospect.com
by Adam Foster on Nov 3, 2009 4:38 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Yeah, he’s a real guy’s guy.
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Nov 3, 2009 8:33 AM EST up reply actions
Exacttly. And when I saw him this year he was hitting 93 with ease and a good deal of sink. Spruill has the potential to be a top-flight groundball pitcher.
Q: If on-base pct is so important then why don't they put it on the scoreboard? -Failcoeur
A: Because the Braves don't want to show their fans how bad you suck.
Good to see Cody Johnson on this list.
He improved his walk rate and has massive power. He’s also just 20 in AA. Unfortunately he’s far from a defensive asset and he cannot make consistent contact, but he has a few years to figure that out.
hes 20 in A+
he spent 5 games in AA and that doesnt make him 20 in AA
Does it make him 25 in AA?
He’s young for Hi-A, too. That said, I appreciate you providing that games information here because I’m not sure where on earth I could have found that information, otherwise.
Regardless
Saying he was “20 in AA” was misleading. He spent the year in A+, and got some token atbats in Pearl at the end of the year.
dont you mean irregardless???
i feel regardless is not strong enough…. needs more emphasis
irregardless
is not actually a word.
by richieabernathy on Nov 3, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
don't you mean irregardless
is not irreactually a word?
(actually needs a little stronger emphasis here)
i was joking
another user made a post utilizing the non-word, me and aCone were refuting it
actually, it is...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless
while not an “accepted” word, its beginnings as an INCORRECT word in speech has led to it being included as a written word.
Ergo, it’s still a word.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Nov 6, 2009 6:51 AM EST up reply actions
Note that that dictionary listing says nonstandard.
It is a word is the sense that anything people say or write down is a “word.” It is not a word in the standard English lexicon.
Word
A word is a basic unit of semantic meaning. This is why neologisms often make sense despite having neither a regularly accepted definition nor a regularly accepted form. If you can understand what “irregardless” means, it’s a word, even if it is a nonstandard usage in American English.
Here’s Random House: “Word: a unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation, that functions as a principal carrier of meaning.”
http://www.chop-n-change.com
by alexwithclass on Nov 6, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
A promotion is a promotion…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Nov 3, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
Still misleading
He played 6 games in AA. If you want to be hyper technical, he was 21 by the time he saw AA.
So there.
hyper technical
touché…
"Hey Fat Kid...the monster is right behind you! RUNNNN!!" -The Host
by bwellnjonesco on Nov 3, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
No.
It means that he doesn’t have a Double-A track record. His 5-game promotion was an “attaboy” from the organization, that says absolutely nothing about his prospect status other than that the Braves seem to like him. There’s nothing in Double-A to evaluate in Johnson’s 2009 season. Luis Valbuena got a 3-game promotion from Short-Season to Triple-A when he was 19 because Everett was close to Tacoma and the Rainiers needed a defensive replacement and liked his makeup. It didn’t make him a 19-year-old in Triple-A.
Also...
Johnson was dreadful in those 6 games he played in Double-A. Completely overmatched in every way. His Double-A OPS was .462. It doesn’t mean anything for his prospect status, but you can’t have it both ways. If you give him credit for reaching AA, you have to look at what he actually did there.
Hard to vote for either list.
Both come from qualified opinions.
I think omitting Hoover is a mistake on BA’s part and omitting Kody from the whole Top 20 is a bit much on John’s part.
Both rank Kimbrel ahead of a couple of players they should not.
Now, I am nitpicking.
How about mine?
I don’t claim to be near the same level as Sickels or BA, or anyone else who makes a living off of this, but I’m working on it. Let me know what you think. Top 10 here, top 40 at my blog.
1 Jason Heyward , OF , ATL
2 Freddie Freeman , 1B , ATL
3 Julio Teheran , P , ATL
4 JJ Hoover , P , ATL
5 Randall Delgado , P , ATL
6 Mike Minor , P , ATL
7 Zeke Spruill , P , ATL
8 Brett Oberholtzer , P , ATL
9 Craig Kimbrel , P , ATL
10 Adam Milligan , OF , ATL
I’m working on the Nats and Rangers as we speak. Should be up in a day or 2.
http://milbprospects.blogspot.com/
He's 13th on mine.
Maybe should be higher but I haven’t got a lot of info on him yet. If he keeps this up, he’ll be a lot higher next year.
http://milbprospects.blogspot.com/
by Matt Garrioch on Nov 5, 2009 3:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
well, you don't have...
Bethancourt on your list but you have Hoover at 4.
that’s a pretty crappy list. no offense.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Nov 6, 2009 6:52 AM EST up reply actions
Adam Milligan in an AB against Mets Prospect Kyle Allen
http://www.scoutingthesally.com/2009/11/prospect-video-kyle-allen-sp-mets.html
Billy Chapel: "I can always tell when I'm in New York."
Scouting Report on Adam Milligan (ScoutingTheSally.com)
http://www.scoutingthesally.com/2009/11/scouting-report-adam-milligan-of-braves.html
Seems Mike doesn’t like him too well. Likes the body, just doesn’t like what the body has to offer.
Billy Chapel: "I can always tell when I'm in New York."

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