Community Prospect List - Cardinals

by cwhitman412 on Oct 25, 2009 8:11 AM EDT Comment 39 comments

Cardinals are next. What a terrible system. Graduates and trades totally wiped out this system. There's some upside here, especially for bullpen arms, but we saw what happened with those this year. Speaking of bullpen arms, Gorgen is in my top 3 for Cardinal bullpen arms, and I'm still deciding if he goes any higher. That change up is NASTY. The pitch f/x for it is insane. Anyways, 130 AB, 50 IP limits

1. Shelby Miller

2. Allen Craig

3. Daniel Descalso

4. Jaime Garcia

5. Robert Stock

Other names are Freese, Hamilton, Daryl Jones, Sanchez, Reifer, Hooker, and Castillo, Lynn.

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woof

1. Shelby Miller
2. Daniel Descalso
3. Allen Craig
4. Robert Stock
5. Daryl Jones

by gogotabata on Oct 25, 2009 9:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Want To Change List? Not Counting Til A Reponse.

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by cwhitman412 on Oct 25, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

tis fine

by gogotabata on Oct 26, 2009 7:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

1.Shelby Miller
2. Robert Stock
3. Allen Craig
4. Daryl Jones
5. Lance Lynn

by jar75 on Oct 25, 2009 10:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Want To Change List? Not Counting Til A Reponse.

by cwhitman412 on Oct 25, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nope

I like mine the way it is

by jar75 on Oct 25, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

too bad wagner mateo isn't on the list

add in that, off the top, there weren’t that many draft picks that seemed to have gotten off to hot starts. Maybe Joe Kelly and Kyle Conley. A bit disappointed in Stidham, who I was intrigued with.

1. Shelby Miller – seems like the highest upside guy, far and away.
2. Allen Craig – he just hits, and he should get some credit for that, particularly considering how barren the system is.
3. Lance Lynn – don’t think he’s anything more than an end of the rotation workhorse type if he makes it.
4. Robert Stock – An upside nod, but I’m still not sold on him at catcher.
5. Joe Kelly – Probably a bit out of the blue, but I like the arm and I think he moves fast.

I like Descalso as well … … but I like Kelly better.

by toonsterwu on Oct 25, 2009 11:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

also

i forgot who else we were discussing as the worst system in the game, but I would lean towards the Cardinals for that title for this year. There doesn’t seem to be a high number of high potential chips, and those that are either struggled or are really low level. The upper level guys don’t seem to project to any big time status unless Allen Craig’s bat keeps on mashing. Most of their top arms are probably bullpen guys as well. Just not a great mix, imo.

I mean, grade wise, what are we looking at here – maybe only 3 or 4 guys that are B- or higher.

by toonsterwu on Oct 25, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

toronto and arizona are almost as bad as this

by daveh33 on Oct 25, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Eh

I think I’d take both systems over St Louis’s. Their best prospect is the weakest (in my opinion) of the top prep arms and the rest all have some pretty big question marks. I can’t think of a worse system.

by jar75 on Oct 25, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i would too

hence why i said …“almost as bad”

by daveh33 on Oct 25, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah...

Man, I didn’t realize just how bad this system was. Yeesh.

"Chicks dig the long ball, although fat chicks will settle for warning track power" - Nick Diamond

by hero66 on Oct 27, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stock

You should also remember how young he actually is; he doesn’t turn 20 until the end of November. I’d rather see him as a pitcher, but I was pretty impressed with his pro debut.

by jar75 on Oct 25, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh, i was impressed with his rookie league work

it was very solid.

by toonsterwu on Oct 25, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

admittedly

could be a case of too many pre-draft reports sticking in my head, in regards to his ability to stick at catcher.

by toonsterwu on Oct 25, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's my fault...

I didn’t realize you meant defensively in your initial post.

Yeah, his defense got mixed reviews (per BA) in the Appy. I don’t remember all that many pre-draft reviews of his defense because most liked him as a starter. If he can’t stick there defensively, I hope St Louis moved him to the mound.

by jar75 on Oct 25, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Want To Change List? Not Counting Til A Reponse.

by cwhitman412 on Oct 25, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

what?

i’m a bit confused cwhit. I feel pretty comfortable with that top 5 for the Cardinals. I mean, I could buy a case for Descalso … but I like Kelly’s arm, despite the delivery.

I guess, the answer is no, I don’t want to change my top 5.

by toonsterwu on Oct 25, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

reading below

are you asking because of Jaime Garcia? If so, first I’d ask if he’s still rookie eligible. I know he spent a good chunk of days on the 25 man in 2008. It looks like he was very near the 45 day limit in 2008 – around 39 to 40 days. I don’t know if he squeaked 5 or 6 days on the 25 man at any other time.

But I had already previously pondered him. In general, I always thought of him as a mid-end of the rotation lefty. Add in the medical history, and coming off surgery, I’m just not too enthused about placing him in the top 4. Maybe the 5th spot, but I’m just wary of ranking him too high right now until I see something more. Maybe I’m underselling his high end potential.

No … I think I’ll stick with Kelly over Garcia at 5. I think Kelly could move fast and be a potential late inning type arm with the mid-90’s fastball and solid slider. I might be crazy … but I’ll stick with that top 5.

by toonsterwu on Oct 25, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Alright

Just what I was curious about. Service time doesn’t count, only IP.

by cwhitman412 on Oct 25, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ah okay

i forgot that we weren’t following mlb rules for rookie status.

by toonsterwu on Oct 25, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

eh, meant to say that we weren't following all the rules for rookie status

by toonsterwu on Oct 25, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

what about jaimie Garcia??

hes not a top 5 prospect in this lousy system?

by matthewmafa on Oct 25, 2009 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I Keep Forgetting Him

If anyone wants to add him in, you can. I’m going to put him at 4, knock Lynn off, Keep Stock on.

by cwhitman412 on Oct 25, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

David Freese

looks like a solid bat. Can he play 3b? I think Allen Craig is very bad there.
1. Shelby Miller
2.Allen Craig
3.Daryl Jones
4.Robert Stock
5.Jaime Garcia

by LCT on Oct 25, 2009 1:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hasn't Craig already been moved to left?

"Chicks dig the long ball, although fat chicks will settle for warning track power" - Nick Diamond

by hero66 on Oct 27, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mine

Jaimi Garcia
Shelby Miller
Darly Jones (Healthy now)
Lance Lynn
Allen Craig
Adam Ottavino
Stock
Sanchez
Freese
Jon Jay
Descalso
Tyler Henley

Yadi is my hero

by Big Phil on Oct 25, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Two curiousity questions

Looks like Jaime Garcia does qualify for mlb rookie status. He qualified for this list anyways, but he seems to be at 39 days for service time, based on transaction logs. Could any Cards fans provide some insight on what he was throwing late in the year when he came back? Same as before? (what was it, high 80’s fb that topped out low 90’s, solid curve, and decent change, right?)

Also … I’m mildly curious where people would’ve ranked Wagner Mateo had he been in the system. Just bored, random curiosity. I’m curious partly because John gave Sano a C+ and it seemed like these two were graded similarly during the international signing period.

by toonsterwu on Oct 25, 2009 7:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Garcia

From what I recall, he was hitting low 90’s with the fastball down the playoff stretch. I read he was still a little inconsistent but looked very sharp in his last start for the PCL. I think he’ll get a fair shot at taking Piniero’s spot if he departs, but most likely starts in AAA to finish the rehab.

by The Gottfather on Oct 28, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mine

1. Daryl Jones
2. Allen Craig
3. David Freese
4. Shelby Miller
5. Robert Stock

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

by WayneCampbell08 on Oct 25, 2009 8:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Mine

1. Shelby Miller
2. Daryl Jones
3. Allen Craig
4. Lance Lynn
5. Jaime Garcia

6-10 (no order): Walters, Kozma, Freese, Reifer, Hooker

Lots of interesting guys, but there is definitely no sure fire order for the cards.

by thudean on Oct 25, 2009 9:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Here you go

1. Jaime Garcia
2. Shelby Miller
3. Daryl Jones
4. Lance Lynn
5. Allen Craig

Miller easily has the most upside, but until he has a few more pro innings it’s tough to put him in the #1 spot even in a mediocre system. Garcia rebounded very well from Tommy John, maintained his stuff and command, and probably is going to be in the Cardinals rotation next year. I still think Jones has a shot to be a solid OF, not a middle of the order guy but a leadoff or #2 hitter with some pop & speed. Lynn’s going to be a decent innings eater, maybe a lot like Lohse. Craig can hit, and if Holliday isn’t resigned I think he should be given a shot to be the LF next year, though I’m doubtful LaRussa will ever give him an opportunity as anything other than a reserve.

by montalban on Oct 26, 2009 1:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

1. Shelby Miller
2. Lance Lynn
3. Robert Stock
4. Daryl Jones
5. Eduardo Sanchez

by NYSOX on Oct 26, 2009 7:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Cards

top 5

1. Shelby Miller
2. Daniel Descalso
3. Rob Stock
4. Lance Lynn
5. Daryl Jones

H.M.: Craig, Garcia, Freese, Sanchez

Deolis Guerra = Daniel Cabrera ?
I tend to think so

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Oct 26, 2009 10:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I dont consider their system that bad

IMO most cards fans at the time had no problem giving up wallace who had no position in STL

At the time, pitchers like perez, mortensen, todd, gregerson werent any more or less valued than motte, ottavino, hawksworths, boggs, walters etc. plus they’ll have several comp picks to replenish the system

Add in a healthy garcia and good arms in miller, lynn, etc and there should be enough pitching depth

I also think they have a decent group of infielders in freese, craig, green, descalo, kozma, etc who might result in a couple solid additions eventually

by Asfan4ever723 on Oct 26, 2009 3:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Lots of depth but no top talent

You list a lot of guys who will probably be able to play in the major leagues sometime, be it as a borderline to average starter or bench player, but none of them really project to be plus talent. Even after giving away all those relievers, they still have a lot of guys who could be decent relievers like Ottavino, Motte, Sanchez, etc.

Right now, Shelby Miller is pretty much the only guy the Cards can expect to become a top talent, although if Daryl Jones recovers well after his injury plagued down year, then maybe he can be a guy, too. He’s certainly started to come around after a slow start in the AFL…

Given the state of the Cardinal’s farm near the end of the Jocketty era, that may be an improvement, and their draft strategy since then has certainly reflected whats available: high floor, low ceiling types. Now, though, they need to start finding some guys who can become the stars of the future. This past year taking Miller and putting some money on Mateo was a step towards doing that.

Either way, the system is hardly exciting. Hopefully they can be aggressive in changing that.

by oplaid on Oct 26, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

my list

miller
garcia
freese
craig
jones

others
lynn
stock
sanchez

i love garcia. considered putting him above miller due to proximity to the majors and better likelihood of reaching ceiling. miller has a higher ceiling but is so far away right now that pretty much anything could happen.

pick’em between jones, freese and craig.

not quite on the descalso band wagon. i like him, but not as much as the others. it was odd that memphis basically benched for hoffpauir.

by dmb60614 on Oct 27, 2009 1:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'll take the Cards system....

1. Jaime Garcia (70-90 prospect)
2. Shelby Miller (80-100 prospect)
3. Daryl Jones – Sleeper with top 50 potential
4. Lance Lynn – Cheap 3/4 starter is always worth more…
5. Allen Craig – How long does he have to hit?

Not saying these guys are world beaters but I would put the Cards farm in the 18-22 range. Not tons of upside but lots of depth….

by Lawless on Oct 27, 2009 6:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs