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Mark Mulder, Roy Halladay, Trevor Cahill and overcoming BAD rookie seasons

Oh geez, another Trevor Cahill (Mazzaro/Anderson/Ynoa) post. Did that really have to happen? I would say so. This is actually not as much about Trevor Cahill, but it is about the ability of young pitchers to overcome K/BB ratios as bad as Trevor Cahill's this season (1.25).

The general argument when it comes to Trevor Cahill is that his detractors will point to his inability to strike anyone out and his propensity to issue free passes as a reason that he is no more than a #4 starter. Trevor Cahill's supporters will make the rebuttle that he hasn't been using his most effective swing and miss pitch this season and control can be taught. Basically it is the "development argument"--Cahill has the ability to develop into a very good pitcher.

Knowing how highly I thought of Cahill coming into the season, I thought it might be a good idea to look into the likelihood of progression into the future ace/#2 starter most people thought he would develop into coming into the season. Looking at Cahill's season, it is easy to see why he has had such a rough time in the major leagues--those who argue against Cahill are right. He has a very low K/9, a high BB/9 and a subsequently very bad K/BB. Now pitchers have been able to develop one side of the equation or the other, but most successful pitchers enter the league at least somewhat proficient in one of these categories. Either they have very good control (they throw a lot of strikes) and cannot strike anyone out (ala Rick Porcello this year) or they send plenty of batters back to the dugout ok strikes and have a hard time hitting the zone (ala Clayton Kershaw). As these pitchers move foward, there is a slew of evidence that they at least have the opportunity to improve as there is a track record of pitchers who have done the same (Dan Haren, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, etc). But are there pitchers who have had problems in both categories--to the same extent that Cahill has them--who have gone on to be successful starters in Major League Baseball?

This is what I sought to find out. My criteria was this:

1) Pitchers who had a K/BB ratio under 1.30 with more than 100 IP

2) Who later went on to post an above average FIP for 3 years

3) They must not have exceeded 200 IP before their 1.30 K/BB season. We are looking at the ability of players to develop a good K/BB ratio not someone who is trying to bounce back from a bad season (Kenny Rogers, I'm looking at you)

For my purposes, I went searched back only to 1990. However, as I was looking through I found a couple pitchers who fit the bill going back into their careers. (Mike Moore was one of them)

All told, the results were slim. Here's what I found.

1982 Mike Moore (.092 K/BB)--immediately had 3 straight seasons under 3.60 FIP and 3 more out of the next 6 seasons above average--all told 6 out of his next 9 seasons were above average

Jose Mesa--I'm not even going to put down the years and K/BB ratios. From 1987-1992 (4 seasons), he was downright awful. However, in 1993, he began to put it together and put a string of 4 very good seasons together. He scattered a couple more very good seasons in over the rest of his career, but still came out with a career FIP of 4.31.

1991 Darryl Kile (1.19 K/BB)--Actually posted a solid 3.69 ERA in his rookie year, but had a FIP of 4.66 to back it up. Went on to post very good FIPs in 5 of the next 6 years. Wasn't quite the same after his year-29 season and ended up with a 4.24 career FIP. Solid and certainly over those 6 years he was a #3 starter.

1993 Tim Wakefield (0.79 K/BB)--Walked a LOT and Ked almost no one in his second season in the league. Went on to learn how to strikeout more and brought his BBs a little more under control scattering a few above average seasons throughout a very long career. Career FIP of 4.72 suggests that he is no more than a 4th starter.

1999 Roy Halladay (1.04 K/BB)--Now here is the first really interesting one. The others were pitchers who had moderate success but no real aces among the bunch. This is the first one to have prolonged success. After his rookie campaign (again with a a very good ERA that did not show the tale of the terrible FIP), Halladay's ERA combusted and he was sent down the minors to rework his mechanics. He came back to the majors and hasn't looked back since. His career FIP is 3.47--a true ace.

2000 Mark Mulder (1.28 K/BB)--Here is another interesting one. Mark Mulder came up from the minors in a hurry and had a very bad season his rookie year. After this, however, Mulder showed true ace potential putting up three straight seasons among the top pitchers in FIP. Injuries derailed his career and he was never same after 2003. All things equal, after his rookie season Mulder was an ace almost to the level of Halladay when he was healthy.

 

Apart from this handful of outliers, most other pitchers who put up K/BB ratios in the realm of Trevor Cahill faded into oblivion. The reason that I point out Mark Mulder is because so many people from the Athletics organization continue to point to Mark Mulder as a reason for keeping the A's rookies in the major leagues while they were struggling. Billy Beane specifically pointed to Mark Mulder as a guy who learned by taking some shots and then grew as a result of it. When Beane pointed to Mulder as a model, I didn't realize quite how closely Cahill's performance resembled Mulder's. For everyone's sake, Cahill had better hope that Beane was right to compare him to Mark Mulder because there are very few young pitchers who have struggled to the extent that Cahill has and gone on to be successful.

I would take it further and say that if Cahill's career follows the path of Moore, Mesa or Wakefield, he would rightly be considered a bust--or at least a disappointment. Coming into the league, Cahill was expected to be a frontline starter. Anything less than Mulder's performance (minus injury) would seem to be failure.

Better yet, Beane should hope that Cahill defies all odds and reaches for the furthest outlier--Roy Halladay. The odds are certainly against him, but Cahill has the track record and minor league scouting report to back it up.

 

If Cahill doesn't become the next outlier then he can expect to fade into oblivion along with Jimmy Anderson, Kirk Rueter, Ken Hill and Nate Cornejo.

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great post

i didnt realize how few pitchers there are that overcame bad rookie seasons like that. i am hoping he takes the mold of mulder

by mjr20 on Oct 1, 2009 10:36 PM EDT reply actions  

So wait

Pitchers can improve on their rookie seasons?

No wayz breh.

"Chicks dig the long ball, although fat chicks will settle for warning track power" - Nick Diamond

by hero66 on Oct 1, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

No, I think you missed the entire point of the article. Which is that very few rookie pitchers as bad as Cahill go on to have successful careers.

by Mike I on Oct 2, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

D'oh

Well even worse, then.

Not all pitchers are created equal.

"Chicks dig the long ball, although fat chicks will settle for warning track power" - Nick Diamond

by hero66 on Oct 2, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not all posts are create equal.

You’ve made some thoughtful contributions on other threads but the two on this one aren’t up to your usual standard.

The point of the OP was that very few pitchers who have performed liked Cahill have gone on to have decent careers and only one became a long-term ace. He used a statistical basis for his argument rather than a naked assertion. It’s a worthwhile point to make – I recall Bill James made a similar argument years ago about Steve Avery.

by Rotofan on Oct 3, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again...who cares about the other pitchers?

They’re different.

Just because Joe Schmoe had a similar season 10 years ago and didn’t end up well, that doesn’t mean Cahill won’t. It doesn’t mean anything in regards to Cahill.

Judge him for what he is, not according to what some other guy did.

"Chicks dig the long ball, although fat chicks will settle for warning track power" - Nick Diamond

by hero66 on Oct 3, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

It certainly does mean something

Try looking at it objectively rather than keeping your fingers crossed for a prospect you like.

It doesn’t spell the end, it doesn’t mean he won’t succeed, but it certainly without a doubt means it’s less likely.

Who loves orange soda?

by Kenan and Kel on Oct 3, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am looking at it objectively

If another guy has much worse stuff, or less upside, what he did doesn’t mean shit compared to what another pitcher might do.

Again, what Joe Schmoe did ten years ago doesn’t affect what Trevor Cahill or any other prospect does now, unless Joe Schmoe is their coach or something.

"Chicks dig the long ball, although fat chicks will settle for warning track power" - Nick Diamond

by hero66 on Oct 4, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think you realize the implications of what you're saying

Players who have better stuff or more upside also become useless comps in your formulation.

Since two pitchers are very rarely exactly alike in stuff or upside, you’ve reduced the universe of useful comparisons down so far that you can no longer say anything intelligible about a prospect at all.

I think your formulation is bunk to begin with— statistical comparisons are very useful in predicting player performance— but on top of that, if you really believe what you’re saying, you might as well quit the site, because it’s contrary to the entire raison d’etre of minorleagueball.

It is, of course, also possible that you’re just clutching at straws to defend Cahill.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Oct 4, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not grasping at straws at all

I’m not that big a Cahill fan, and I’ve argued this before.

I’m still waiting for somebody to tell me why what Jose Mesa did 20 years ago has any effect on what Cahill might do.

Again, if they’re different pitchers, with different upside, with different arsenals, with different polish, etc etc…how does it matter at all?

All I ask is that you evaluate pitchers for what THEY are. It’s completely unfair to say that players A and B also did this so player C will fail or succeed or whatever. Doesn’t make sense.

"Chicks dig the long ball, although fat chicks will settle for warning track power" - Nick Diamond

by hero66 on Oct 5, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK

How?

How do you evaluate a pitcher if you can’t compare him to anyone else? If every pitcher is sui generis, there’s no way to ever predict anything.

It’s wrong in practice, but it’s also completely nihilistic.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Oct 5, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Judging history

History sets the context that we live in today. In this case, by seeing the track record of pitchers who performed similarly to Trevor Cahill, we are able to give a context to the likelihood of his emergence as a viable pitcher in the major leagues.

This is not to say that Cahill is destined to go one way or the other. If 20 out of 20 pitchers became Cy Young award winners, that would not mean that Cahill was, 100%, going to become a Cy Young award winner. On the other hand if 20 out of 20 pitchers ended up busting with negative value in relation to replacement players, that does not mean, necessarily, that Cahill will follow suit.

All this is to place statistical context to the statistics Cahill posted this season. It would be foolish for us to think that a player’s performance places them on an island without anyone or anything else to provide context.

Does scouting report have a place in comparison? Absolutely. However, the discussion that has been brought to the table over recent months is whether or not Cahill can overcome his rookie struggles (specifically his K/BB ratio) to realize the potential promised in Stockton and Midland last season. The question that this discussion ought to bring up is how often (likely) has this happened in past? Using statistical comparisons, we can take those pitchers with similar statistical performances and judge the field as a result.

What we find is that the context shows it is difficult for a young pitcher to overcome a performance as poor as Cahill’s. But, as I believe you are trying to point out, this does not condemn Cahill as a pitcher. Cahill is his own pitcher just as the Boston Red Sox were their own team when they faced an 0-3 uphill battle against the Yankees in 2004. The future is not determined for us, but history gives us context to understand the present and the future.

Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports

by nobodyinparticular on Oct 6, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry. I assumed you understood the original post.

Since 1990 there have been countless pitchers who have struggled like Cahill did in their first year. Of those many pitchers, one has had a HOF-type career, one was an ace for three years, a few for middle-rotation starters and the rest — the vast majority — didn’t succeed.

In short, the original poster compared Cahill to all starters since 1990 — at least that is what he claimed.

by Rotofan on Oct 3, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not that I disagree with the overall premise

But using Tim Wakefield to prove any point not involving a knuckleballer is a poor way to prove a point.

by Fanon on Oct 1, 2009 11:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Tim Wakefield

You make a good point and I agree with you. I should have qualified the Wakefield section with that very statement. I certainly did in my head. Beyond that, however, there are a couple things that are being overlooked.

A) I am really did not “use” Wakefield to prove any point but moreso included him in the statistical group. I could not simply leave him out of group when he was one of the very few who fit in it. (again I agree that I should have qualified his inclusion with the statement of his knuckleballerness)
B) The fact that Wakefield was able to improve on his early years has little bearing on my conclusion. My overall conclusion was that the percentages are against Cahill in terms of him turning around his career (the inclusion of each pitcher who was able to overcome their bad rookie seasons was meant to show the scarcity of the group). Had I specifically pointed to Wakefield and said that there is hope for Cahill because of the way that Wakefield improved I would understand your comment singling out the inclusion of Wakefield but that was not the case.

Once again, I agree with your statement about knuckleballers but I do not think that I mis-used Wakefield’s stats in any way.

Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports

by nobodyinparticular on Oct 1, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wasn't saying you misused them

Just that they don’t really mean anything.

by Fanon on Oct 1, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

I was about to say the same thing.

by alskor on Oct 3, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

not sure about this

“I thought it might be a good idea to look into the likelihood of progression into the future ace/#2 starter most people thought he would develop into coming into the season”

I don’t know that most people thought that. Given the small number of aces there are out there, I don’t think this is the most likely outcome for even a pitcher of cahill’s track record. Although I might have said he had a better chance of reaching it than many players coming into this season

by son.of.sourman on Oct 2, 2009 1:07 AM EDT reply actions  

The issue with Cahill

Is really only about left handers. Yes, his K/BB is poor vs. everyone, but he simply cannot get lefties out.

Halladay and Mulder didn’t have the extreme splits that Cahill has when they had their poor rookie seasons. He wasn’t just bad overall and needs to improve a bit. He gave up a .286/.360/.558 line to left handers. This is consistent with his minor league numbers where he had a 4+ K/B vs. righties and a 1.75 vs. lefites (along with an OPS that was .125 higher vs. lefties)

that’s a sign that he needs to change his pitch selection vs. lefties pretty dramatically.

by Galt on Oct 2, 2009 12:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Pitch selection or pitch development?

Splits that drastic tell me that he doesn’t have a pitch that works effectively against lefties. Whether that means that he needs to develop his changeup to become much better or he needs to come up with a new pitch I don’t know. Personally, one of my favorite pitches for sinkerballers is a splitter. However, at this stage, I don’t know if Cahill will get the opportunity to develop a splitter that would be effective. The other option I would think is developing a cutter.

Beyond this, the problem that he seems to have is not as much the Ks but the BBs. In his minor league career, he has still had a fairly good K rate against lefties, but his BB/9 doubles in almost every instance. Is he afraid to pitch to lefties? Does he have a problem locating well against lefties? With such a dramatic split in the BB department, I can’t see that it is the visibility of his hand as he releases the ball. If he were only getting tagged or the K/9 dropped but the walk rate were equal that would seem to signal a problem with hiding the ball. Instead his K rate is good (in comparison) and his walk rate is bad.

Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports

by nobodyinparticular on Oct 2, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, I didn't know how to say that

Or really felt like I’d blabbed on long enough.

It seems like whatever he’s throwing to lefties is clearly not working, I’m guessing because everything tails in instead of tailing away.

So, yeah, he needs to develop another pitch. Or in terms of “selection” stop throwing some pitch vs. lefties (I’m sure fangraphs has the data to say what’s the pitch that kills him)

by Galt on Oct 2, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gotcha

Ok, I see where you’re coming from.

Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports

by nobodyinparticular on Oct 2, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kirk Rueter had a pretty solid career

Not great, or anything, but if a pitching prospect turns into Rueter that’s not a bad thing.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Oct 2, 2009 3:54 PM EDT reply actions  

but that's not where cahill was projected

which is the point of this post…i thought the OP was well stated…i was one who cheered for avery back in the day to make it back, but not all the guys we cheer for get where we hoped they would, and this post explained why realism may say it’s time to dial back the long term cahill predictions…

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 3, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Point is, he didn't "fade into oblivion"

He was a fractionally below average pitcher for 13 seasons. Basically, he was a “hit” in prospect terms.

I don’t think that has anything at all to do with Trevor Cahill, who’s an utterly different pitcher in every respect. I’m just setting the record straight about Kirk Rueter…

If you want my opinion on Cahill— well, it’s clear that right now he is not an MLB-quality pitcher. He needs a reworking of his mechanics and pitch arsenal. I’ve been arguing vehemently that he should be sent to the minors next season unless he shows up in spring with an MLB-quality breaking ball. I guess that’s more or less in line with what this post says— he’s not likely to just “snap out of it” on his own.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Oct 3, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also remember

Halladay was sent all the way back down to A ball to rework himself and when he came back the 2nd time he was a changed pitcher Si it’s nit a great comp.

I’d be curious to see who his (cahill) top comparable players are , but BR doesn’t seem to have it for him yet and BP won’t be out till January or February.

Check out my baseball analysis blog FANalytics

or follow me on twitter

by jbluestone on Oct 4, 2009 1:17 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Halladay comp

Actually it is a perfectly fine comparison. The point is to find any evidence that Trevor Cahill would be able to overcome his rookie struggles to succeed in the majors. Halladay was able to do that—in whatever way. The fact that he was able to re-work himself in single-A is perfectly fine for this comparison. How he got there is entirely irrelevant—the fact is that he got there.

Visit my sports blog: Triple Slash Sports

by nobodyinparticular on Oct 4, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cahill

My scout side wants to continue saying that cahill will be an ace, but I think Darryl kile may end up a more suitable comp than b-Webb in numerical terms, which certainly isn’t a bad thing.

by METSMETSMETS on Oct 4, 2009 5:45 PM EDT reply actions  

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