Oliver projections now on Fangraphs
I bring this up because the Chris Davis fanpost had a lot of discussion regarding CHONE projections and their meaning towards second year players. What has ended up happening is that folks are taking CHONE too literally while others are dismissing it entirely because they don't like the projections.
First, let me say that CHONE is a very good projection system. It has been relatively accurate over the years and uses much better methods then the Marcel or Bill James projection methods. It isn't perfect, though, and with the way it's formulas work it might be better served as a way of projecting veteran players or, at least, players with three years of MLB experience. The reason for this is that CHONE only uses a three year equivalency at the major league level for it's projections, ignoring minor league stats entirely. If a player doesn't have three years worth of data, CHONE does it's best with development and age curves.
Oliver, on the other hand, uses all of a player's major league years plus his minor league years adjusted with MLEs (Major League Equivalents). What this means is that Oliver should be able to project major league performance for first, second, or even third year players with greater accuracy. Time will tell is this is true or not, but for the moment we have a new tool to work with.
For comparison purposes, here is the CHONE mean projection for Davis for 2009 and the Oliver projection for 2009:
CHONE: .265 / 316 / .492 - a .348 wOBA (8.8 wRAA) with 25 HR and 56 overa XBH in 516 PA
Oliver: .278 / .322 / .538 - a .362 wOBA (16.8 wRAA) with 37 HR and 79 overall XBH in 641 PA
The CHONE projection shouldn't be ignored, because it seems to be taking a heavier approach with Davis' development curve (especially the weaknesses that low contact + high strikeout guys have), but the Oliver projection has a better grasp on Oliver's power potential in the majors. Both systems should be paid attention to because they both address separate issues, but neither one should be weighed above the other. Oliver simply gives us another tool with which to project future performance. I'm happy Fangraphs is continuing to bring us more information to play with. It is really starting to become "the" site for modern statstical analysis.
*edit*
Please replace every instance of CHONE in here with Marcel and please go find the Marcel prediction for Davis and replace it with the above CHONE projection. Or don't. Whatever you want to do is fine.
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27 comments
Comments
What?
ZOMG, don’t you know player performance can never be projected by anything? Or at least, anything other than homer fans?
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
by PaulThomas on Jan 27, 2009 12:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
More PT quotes:
Suzuki has a CHONE projection of about 13 runs above average, which is actually worse than he’s done in either of his first two seasons.
I love how when projections benefit an A’s rival they are useless, yet when they benefit an A’s player they are valid. Nah, you never selectively use stats!!!!!! I guess you are right on the HOMER FAN part though!!!!!!!!
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Jan 27, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
what?
Im not sure what you are trying to prove with what appears to be a factually accurate statement. Remarking that Suzuki has outperformed his CHONE projection the last two years isn’t homerism if it is true.
Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom
by designatedforassignment on Jan 27, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not my argument
My point is that PT often uses projections. For example:
Saying he’s average doesn’t make him average
and he is NOT average. Sean Smith has him projected at -7 runs next season at third base, and his metric takes account of both the player’s scouting reports and his recent performance in various zone ratings.
Now he is being snarky with another poster for referring to a positive projection about Chris Davis. I find it funny how he constantly selects stats and now apparently does not agree with projections. Classic PT!!!!
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Jan 27, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
by PaulThomas on Jan 27, 2009 8:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did he actually outperform his projections?
Because that isn’t what PT said – he said that CHONE was projecting Suzuki to do worse this year than he had.
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
by OldProspects on Jan 27, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sarcasm works great on the Internet!!!! Whenever you make incorrect statements (as is often the case with PT) just claim it is sarcasm!!!!!!!
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Jan 27, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I actually thought it was obviously sarcasm.
Never, Never, NEVER give up
by hero66 on Jan 28, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Keep talking
The only thing you’re undermining is your own reading comprehension.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
by PaulThomas on Jan 28, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Talking?
I think this is called TYPING!!!!!
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Jan 28, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you like Oliver better...
Because it is telling you what you want to hear.
Oliver and Chone both make extensive use of MLEs to project players.
by dkdc on Jan 27, 2009 1:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I had thought CHONE uses MLEs. What he is describing above sounds like Marcel.
by aCone419 on Jan 27, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Um, CHONE most definitely uses minor league stats.
ZiPS has him at .263/.309/.508 with a 108 OPS+
Which is closer to CHONE, and
by bigboy1234 on Jan 27, 2009 2:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
and....
that is a Mike Jacobs-esque projection. Now he’ll most definitely end up better than Jacobs as this will only be his age 23 season but he needs to work on that OBP.
by bigboy1234 on Jan 27, 2009 2:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That's not a Mike Jacobs esque projection
if you are talking about the Oliver one. That wOBA is much better than what Jacobs has ever posted. Even that CHONE projection for him has him putting up a better wOBA than anything Jacobs has ever had.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Jan 28, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Am I the only one who still uses PECOTA?
by demondeaconsbaseball on Jan 27, 2009 2:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
No
But it’s good to look at a lot of different projections if you understand how much a projection system “knows”, e.g. minor league data, park adjustments, types of age adjustments, etc.
The best projections I’ve seen recently are the Bonillas. Not accurate but definitely hilarious.
And apparently the Typical Idiot Fan doesn’t understand what goes into CHONE projections.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
Your 2009 Opening Day starter at second base*: Eugenio Velez
*For the Fresno Grizzlies
by baetown415 on Jan 27, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Still reading the Bonillas...
but so far my favorite is:
Xavier Nady, OF: If you believe the rumors, Nady may not make it through the season a Yankee. After coming over at last season’s deadline, he’ll be a short tenured Yankee. Which is different from a short Yankee, like Chuck Knoblauch, Phil Rizzuto or Thomas Paine. Loves telling people “I spent 2 years in Pittsburgh one year.”
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on Jan 27, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
New Favorite:
Ryan Church, OF: Had so many concussions last season he can smell colors. When healthy he has much pop in bat. Had so many concussions last season he can smell colors.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on Jan 27, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
PECOTA has the highest overall correlation each year I believe
But unless I’m mistaken its not free.
by Fett42 on Jan 27, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it also isn't available yet.
can’t talk about something that hasn’t been released yet.
by larry on Jan 27, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
correlation to what?
Most of these research abstracts on accuracy are done by the group that determines who is the best
I suggest you check out this article
http://www.baseballhq.com/books/myths.shtml
Check out my baseball analysis blog FANalytics
by jbluestone on Jan 27, 2009 8:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
On the whole
I would say that the Oliver projection generally provides the lowest estimates for AVG/ISO/OPS than the other projection systems provided by fangraphs.
by thudean on Jan 27, 2009 2:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ugh... everybody else here is correct.
Marcel is the one that doesn’t use MLEs and only sticks to the three year equivalents. My sincerest apologies to everybody for this fanpost.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 27, 2009 7:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Jason...
I see where Giambi is going to be the 8th-best hitter in MLB in 2009 (tied for 7th, actually), 1 wOBA point ahead of Teixeira.
by BobbyMac on Jan 27, 2009 10:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

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