Pitching Q&A with Dr. John Bagonzi (Are pitch counts a myth?)

by jparks77 on Sep 16, 2008 1:08 PM EDT

Respected pitching guru and author of the book "The Act of Pitching", Dr. John Bagonzi answers questions ranging from the myth behind pitch counts to the importance of stride length. Very cool stuff from a very knowledgeable source.

Coach Bagonzi on today's players:

"I’m not sure today’s pitchers are soft - they are generally bigger, look stronger, make a lot more money, and they have become conditioned to throw five to six innings. We didn’t use pitch counts; maybe we should have, but there didn’t seem to be a lot of arm problems, so some of this is mental. I favor a lot of throwing, but constructive throwing. The hard or "power" slider has a lot to do with arm problems in my opinion, and the jury is still out on the splitter."

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confused

I find this kind of stuff fascinating, perhaps because I was a pitcher myself. What Dr. Bagonzi says seems to make logical sense. There’s so much information out there to absorb, some of it contradictory, that I tend to be skeptical of anything I read.

I’ve been a baseball fan my entire life, I played at the college level, and I"m pretty sure I can identify proper mechanics when I see them, but I still don’t know why some pitchers get hurt and others don’t. Maybe I really don’t know what I’m looking at.

Certain people on here seem to know what they’re talking about, so I’ll reach out: is Dr. Bagonzi right, or is he just another well-intentioned, but misguided dabbler? How can you tell?

by El Duq of Hurl on Sep 16, 2008 11:49 PM EDT reply actions

Certainly not a dabbler

Depends really what you value in a teacher. Personally, I wouldn’t say Dr. Bagonzi is well versed in the advances of biomechanical research and I would probably say he is “old school” in alot of his teaching techniques (Note: “Factors in Velocity”).

That said, I wouldn’t hesitate to send a player to him, regardless of my differences of opinion. Based on what I’ve read about him, I have no doubt he’s a great teacher of the game and his players get better. Take from him what you like and leave what you don’t. All players should do this with their coaches. There is no point in dissecting what he might teach right or wrong because when it comes right down to it, for 99% of baseball players out there, all you can ask of a coach is that he teaches you the game and you get better. I seriously doubt at this point in his career Dr. Bagonzi would give two strokes and a squirt what we thought of him.

Baseball Instructor - www.frozenropes.com

by HuskerBob on Sep 17, 2008 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions

saw some things I liked, some things I didn't

I agree w/ the stride stuff; leaving pitches high, I see that often when a player is tired, but if thats happening early in the game he’s probably not following through. Lengthening the stride definitely helps for most.

We avoid sliders too, and splitters unless the kid has big hands. From my experiences if you can spot your FB and throw a CU so it looks like a strike most of the time you can be an elite HS pitcher, maybe a tick below that at the collegiate level. You don’t need a curve at those levels. But after that I wouldn’t know …

Mulder: Babe Ruth was an alien? Arthur Dales: sure; all the great ones were aliens.

by dew on Sep 17, 2008 4:50 PM EDT reply actions

I agree that pitchers could be pushed more

but between expansion, bigger stadiums, a juiced ball, tighter strikezones, etc… it’s far harder to pitch now than it used to be.

by number_twentyone on Sep 18, 2008 7:12 PM EDT reply actions

breaking balls

Why would curveballs be so hard to learn at around, say, age 20 as opposed to 15? And he says sliders are so much easier to learn? Can anyone think why?

Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa

by raisingcain on Sep 18, 2008 8:12 PM EDT reply actions

as someone who learned both late

i would say that the slider is more of a natural progression of arm movement (at least in feel, though it seems to leave the elbow out hanging more than a fastball or changeup) while a curve the way i was taught it required more total arm and wrist colaboration, plus a change in your typical feel in your legs as you lifted off the release….

i personally threw very overhand and straight side arm both….and i threw two types of fastballs, a changeup, and a knuckle/screw pitch that i picked up that i now find is very similar to the gyro ball that dice-k throws in its action…sidearm i threw the two fastballs and the changeup…..essentially giving me 7 pitches that i threw until my late teens….i still throw all those and added a split and forkball in college playing intramurals….so really i’ve never learned (and kept throwing) true breaking balls….

the only thing i’ll say on the article is to echo some of the “old school” points, but in that, i can tell you that i could care less what a pitcher can bench or shoulder press with modern training and lifting (though certainly he should be doing upper body workouts), but give me a guy who can power clean, deadlift, and squat with the best of them, and you’ll see a TREMENDOUS amount of velocity in fastballs and break in breaking balls….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Sep 19, 2008 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Curious...

OK, I have never thrown a pitch in my life, so I am completely uneducated about it. But something in the original post that the doctor said got me wondering….

He apparently asks why pitchers that are apparently so much stronger now break down more. It got me wondering how fast some of those “old school” pitchers used to throw. Guys like Bob Gibson and Walter Johnson (who I heard likely only threw in the low 90s). With the ESPN era causing everyone to look at velocity and radar gun so much more, has that in fact caused more pitching injuries? Players are using more torque and power because they are now stronger, but most pitching injuries are to parts of the arm or shoulder that cannot be strengthened by working out (as far as I know). You can’t make your ligaments and tendons stronger like you can your muscles, and that seems to be where most pitchers are getting hurt.

Guys like Pedro Martinez and other flame throwers could easily get into the high 90s or low 100s on the radar gun, but they seem to break down sooner and easier. But guys like Jamie Moyer, who can barely touch 90 on a good day can seem to pitch forever. Is it because they aren’t taxing their ligaments as much? Is the velocity craze the true culprit of these injuries? Of course there are exceptions, Nolan Ryan could easily touch 100mph and I don’t think he ever had a pitching injury. And there are soft tossers who do get injured. But overall, is the stronger pitcher now more likely to get hurt because while their muscles are bigger and stronger, their tendons and ligaments are still only as strong as a player from the early 1900s?

"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile

by Boxkutter on Sep 19, 2008 11:36 PM EDT reply actions

strength

We were not allowed to work out our upper bodies in college because of fear that we would lose flexibility and therefore, make those ligaments and tendons more succeptible to injury, so that thinking was at least held by some people, for what it’s worth. I have no idea if that’s right or not, I was 21 years old, I did whatever I was told by my coaches.

Also, Jamie Moyer barely touches 90 (does he even throw that hard?), which classifies him as a soft tosser among professional baseball pitchers, but not many humans can physically do this. He’s taxing his ligaments and tendons plenty.

I wonder if it’s just a matter of clean mechanics coupled with the old adage of some people just being physically gifted enough, having been blessed with incredibly resilient tendons and ligaments. In other words, good clean mechanics won’t mean much if your body isn’t hardwired for it.

by El Duq of Hurl on Sep 20, 2008 9:08 AM EDT reply actions