Baseball's Mt. Rushmore
by StickRat
on Sep 11, 2008 1:09 AM EDT
139 comments
I was watching HBO last night and caught the commercial for the upcoming Bob Costas special with guests Willie Mays and Hank Aaron. Looks like a must see. The commercial features Costas saying to Mays and Aaron that if there was a baseball Mt. Rushmore, the two of them would surely be on it.
The comment got me to thinking, and I thought it would be fun to see everyone's idea of what four baseball legends would belong on such a monument. So, what four players would you choose? It's near impossible for me to narrow it to just four, but my choices are:
Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, and Roberto Clemente.
Yours?
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easy....
bonds, clemens, sosa and billy koch
by joltinjoe on
Sep 11, 2008 1:29 AM EDT
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3 recs
Awesome. Rec'd
This is probably the greatest post in the history of SportsNation.
But where does Jay Gibbons figure into all this?
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Sep 11, 2008 4:54 PM EDT
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All position players?
I vote Cy Young, Ruth, Gibson and Bonds.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Sep 11, 2008 1:33 AM EDT
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Come on
That HR in the ’88 World Series was dramatic and all, but…
Often wrong, never uncertain.
by sidnancy on
Sep 11, 2008 1:25 PM EDT
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haha
In the case that others are confused, I believe he meant Bob Gibson
by babaoriley7 on
Sep 11, 2008 2:51 PM EDT
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Thinkin that's Josh
Id rather keep it to MLB, or we also let Sadaharu Oh enter the discussion…
by alskor on
Sep 12, 2008 10:36 PM EDT
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I would go with
Mays, Robinson, Ruth, W. Johnson
by Franchise55 on
Sep 11, 2008 1:40 AM EDT
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Clemente?
Strictly as a player, I don’t know how you’d put him on. If you include personal influence on the game, then it seems like Jackie Robinson should replace him.
If we’re dealing with the 4 most important players, I’d probably do Cy Young, Ruth, Stan Musial and Willie Mays
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Sep 11, 2008 1:40 AM EDT
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Well, if it were like the real rushmore...
It would be, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Lou Brock , and Jackie Robinson in order.
The original superstar(Washington), the not quite as famous also old timer(Jefferson), the certainly not bad, but whats he doing with these guys?(Teddy Roosevelt), and the civil rights man(Lincoln).
by SuperBean on
Sep 11, 2008 1:57 AM EDT
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brock? are you serious?
He wasn’t really that great a player. He had speed, but that was about it. That doesn’t make him one of the 4 most important players of all time.
by sabernar on
Sep 11, 2008 2:05 PM EDT
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Here we go
Kenesaw Mountain Landis, Charles Comiskey, Marge Schott, and Bud Selig
Don't believe the lies Bill!!!! look at the sparkly ERA!!! Sparkly, Sparkly!!! - McCovey Chronicles
by Trenchtown on
Sep 11, 2008 2:07 AM EDT
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Landis
Landis really should be on baseball’s Mount Rushmore. He did manage to save the game.
by GuyinNY on
Sep 15, 2008 9:44 AM EDT
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Wow!
If that’s what you want to call it. But Landis did much MUCH more to harm the game then he ever did for it. It’s highly debatable that his actions in 1920 “saved the game” or even helped the situation any, but certainly his choice just a few years later to brush under the carpet a well publicized gambling event involving Cobb and Speaker questions his motives in the first case IMO. More importantly, of course, is his lifelong refusal to allow integration. He and he alone prevented the game’s integration on at least two occassions when owners intended to act and his behind the scenes pressures no doubt kept most owners from even contemplating the move.
Get the hell out the way Bengie, Pablito's hit the show!
by Roger on
Sep 15, 2008 5:16 PM EDT
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babe ruth, willie mays, cy young, roberto clemente
ruth and mays are obvious to me. i don’t think there’s any way you can leave either of them off. also, i think you’ve got to include a pitcher, and cy young would seem to be as good a choice as any. the fourth spot really could go any number of ways— very tough to narrow it down to just four.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on
Sep 11, 2008 2:13 AM EDT
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Babe Ruth, Cy Young, Willie Mays, & Jackie Robinson
by jvidri9 on
Sep 11, 2008 2:24 AM EDT
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This is pretty good although I really like Cobb. I’d probaly put him in instead of Young.
by jfish26101 on
Sep 13, 2008 11:52 AM EDT
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Alternates...
Andy Van Slyke and Mark Lemke
by jvidri9 on
Sep 11, 2008 2:26 AM EDT
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Hmmmm
good question. My picks would probably be:
Babe Ruth – Likely the best hitter in the history of the game.
Cy Young – The standard for all pitchers. I can’t see putting any pitcher above him considering the annual award given to the best pitcher is named the Cy Young Award (until they change it to the Timothy LeRoy Lincecum Award).
Jackie Robinson – Breaking the color barrier was one of the biggest changes ever made in sports history. He needs to be on there.
The fourth spot is hard. So many players deserve it. Walter Johnson, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, Mathewson, Paige… etc. I would really like to see a front office man get the nod for the fourth spot though. I was thinking Branch Rickey, but his most well known move (Jackie Robinson) is already represented. He did do a lot more though like create the minor league system. Abner Doubleday is a decent idea I think, but history shows he never actually invented the game. Comiskey was too much of a prick to put him on it.
If this includes international baseball as well, Oh needs to be on it. Most career HR in professional baseball… even if he did do it in Japan.
Wait… Spalding. He would be my fourth choice. He did so much for the sport it should be recognized.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on
Sep 11, 2008 3:23 AM EDT
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Excellent choice!
He too has a very strong case as being a big head on a rock. Like I said, I think those first three are absolutely necessary to be on the monument, but that fourth one has so many options.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on
Sep 15, 2008 4:50 PM EDT
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Dimaggio, Mays, Ruth, Hamels
I heard Tim Lincecum will win 1 Cy Young & 11 Tim Lincecums. Question is, how many Cole Hamels will he win?
by the pinstripes on
Sep 11, 2008 9:24 AM EDT
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My Four with comparisons (Rush, Rose, Ted Williams, Robinson)
Washington- First big known leader in USA so baseball comparison= Babe Ruth
Jefferson- Lesser known, reputation has been tarnished with his liasons, but great president in office= Pete Rose
Teddy Roosevelt- Underrated, war took alot of out this man, questionable decisions after he left office, but at least he is not cryogenically frozen= Ted Williams
Lincoln- More for what he meant than what he did, the face of emancipation, died way too soon= Jackie Robinson
by dlpme77 on
Sep 11, 2008 9:42 AM EDT
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Lincoln did quite a bit
Other than emancipation of slaves, there was the Civil War, arguably the most difficult moment in American history. Then there were little things like the Transcontinental Railroad and the Homestead Act , which helped populate the entire West, and the Merrill Land Grant act which did minor things like start universities like Cornell. There’s a reason he’s generally considered the best President in history
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Sep 11, 2008 9:47 AM EDT
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I agree
I am a college graduate with a minor in history so I agree 100%. However, to the average American, he is known for the Civil War and Emancipation, much like other War presidents. Alot of the things he did unfortunately, either he is not remembered for or happened after his death
by dlpme77 on
Sep 11, 2008 12:07 PM EDT
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Not a bad list....
but why no pitchers? You’ve completely ignored half of the game.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on
Sep 11, 2008 11:12 AM EDT
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Pitchers
would be like saying why no democrat. When it comes to the importance of the game, the memorable are the hitters, not the pitchers
by dlpme77 on
Sep 11, 2008 12:04 PM EDT
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I don't like the analogy.
With regard to donkeys and elephants, there is much less difference between them than there are between hitters and pitchers. Or like saying no black players are needed because more memorable hitters have been white (Ruth, Mantle, Williams, DiMaggio, etc).
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on
Sep 12, 2008 3:32 PM EDT
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And the Democrats claim
Thomas Jefferson was one of them, anyway
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Sep 12, 2008 5:31 PM EDT
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Like the list
Well except the Jefferson to Rose comparison.
by TRanger on
Sep 11, 2008 5:53 PM EDT
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Cubs version
Sandberg. Dawson, Santo, Jenkins
by slurve on
Sep 11, 2008 10:19 AM EDT
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Easier with a long history..
Imagine a Rays version? Or an Expos (some studs but none with long lasting impact on the team)
Another shortish history…Mets…
Seaver
Piazza
Hernandez?//Strawberry??//Gary Cohen!
William A. Shea
Remember: baseball guys... baseball...
by Metty5 on
Sep 11, 2008 10:35 AM EDT
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No Banks?
I assume this to be an oversight. Also, I would put up Mark Grace…but I am biased as he my favorite player of all time. Smoked two packs a day and refused to hit under .300 while playing GG defense (got ripped off multiple times).
by goose102977 on
Sep 11, 2008 11:39 AM EDT
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This was easy for me
Babe Ruth
Jackie Robinson
Hank Aaron
C.C. Sabathia (if the Crew secures the Wild Card)
by mjwelch11 on
Sep 11, 2008 11:52 AM EDT
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Going strictly be the posters at this site . . .
Derek Holland
Lars Anderson
Madison Bumgarner
Jason Heyward
by gogotabata on
Sep 11, 2008 12:01 PM EDT
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Why does Derek Holland only have one slot?
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Sep 11, 2008 12:29 PM EDT
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No Lincecum either?
Or does he have his own monument with 4 of his own heads on it? ;)
by jfish26101 on
Sep 13, 2008 11:51 AM EDT
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guys you are slow
Lincecum, Lincecum, Lincecum and Lincecum.
by jahs34 on
Sep 11, 2008 12:32 PM EDT
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Impossible...
I have already trimmed the hedges in my front yard in that mold. Patent pending.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on
Sep 11, 2008 12:39 PM EDT
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I don't have a mountain, so that's what I'm naming my kids.
I'll warm up with you anytime
by ufoboy90 on
Sep 11, 2008 8:41 PM EDT
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ahh damn…should have read just a little bit more. :D Immediately what I thought of when I read gogotabata’s list.
by jfish26101 on
Sep 13, 2008 11:52 AM EDT
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For the Giants...
Mays, McCovey, Marichal, Bonds
by Franchise55 on
Sep 11, 2008 1:08 PM EDT
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You have yours, I’ll have mine besides if you want mine will be SF Giants, you can do NY.
by Franchise55 on
Sep 13, 2008 12:50 AM EDT
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Yanks
Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle
I heard Tim Lincecum will win 1 Cy Young & 11 Tim Lincecums. Question is, how many Cole Hamels will he win?
by the pinstripes on
Sep 11, 2008 1:16 PM EDT
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Mariners
Ichiro, Edgar, Junior, Alvin Davis
by gogotabata on
Sep 11, 2008 1:23 PM EDT
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Bone was great
But Alvin Davis was the first true face of the organization.
by gogotabata on
Sep 11, 2008 2:17 PM EDT
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Not sure
Unit is identified w/ the Mariners so much anymore. I’m sure he’ll be a D-Back when he goes into HOF. He was never as beloved as Jr, nor meant as much to the organization or the fans. He’s not hated like A-Rod, but is in a sort of limbo. I would go w/ Bone before Big Unit (that’s what Mike Piazza said . . .).
by gogotabata on
Sep 12, 2008 11:15 AM EDT
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Orioles
Cal, Brooks, Eddie, Palmer.
Apologies to Frank Robinson, but he played too much of his career elsewhere.
by dkdc on
Sep 11, 2008 1:30 PM EDT
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For the Kansas City A's
Amos Otis and 3 other guys
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Sep 11, 2008 1:35 PM EDT
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Replacement
Shouldn’t that be George Brett and three other guys?
by journeymen on
Sep 20, 2008 1:11 AM EDT
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Kansas City As
Not Royals
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Sep 20, 2008 8:52 PM EDT
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Thoughts
Four players who define MLB baseball for all time:
1. Babe Ruth. This is easy.
2. Jackie Robinson. This, too, is easy.
3. Cy Young. Johnson was a better pitcher, but Young was the first truely great pitcher, and the award is named after him.
4. Oof. You could go alot of ways. Ted Williams was the best hitter. Willie Mays was a very good hitter and a special fielder. Bonds was almost as good of a hitter as Williams, and was (in his younger years) a very good fielder. People forget Honus Wagner, who was a superb fielder and one of the great hitters. But for my money, I think you have to go with Ty Cobb. Great hitter, above average CF, played forever. It would also be quite the counterpoint to Robinson’s inclusion.
Often wrong, never uncertain.
by sidnancy on
Sep 11, 2008 1:41 PM EDT
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Steib, Carter, The doctor, ...
Jays fans:
Alomar or Delgado?
Deego has way better Jays numbers but Alomar is pretty strongly tied to the team and its championships.
Go Jays
by providence bruins on
Sep 11, 2008 2:31 PM EDT
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My Jays
Bell (First superstar, first MVP)
Steib (One of the best pitchers of the 80’s)
Alomar (Best all around Jay of all time)
Delgado (Robbed of an MVP)
If the Doc keeps it up for a few more years he would likely knock off Carlos. I love Carter but I just couldn’t find room.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Sep 11, 2008 4:17 PM EDT
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No Wild Thing Williams?
He won them a World Series!
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on
Sep 12, 2008 3:26 PM EDT
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Mine
Ruth = George Washington
Mays = Thomas Jefferson, probably more talented than Ruth/Washington but never gets the credit
Musial = Teddy Roosevelt, both are criminally underrated
Aaron = Lincoln, steady through it all. Pujols is on his way to becoming the next Aaron. Never fully recognized for the great player that he is…
by indakind on
Sep 11, 2008 3:15 PM EDT
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Stan the Man
Thankfully someone finally remembered Stan Musial. Still the greatest hitter with a home ballpark within 500 miles of the big river….and that may be not giving him due respect.
by Toad on
Sep 11, 2008 10:49 PM EDT
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Another angle: The Ambassadors
Dizzy Dean, Casey Stengle, Yogi Berra, Rickey Henderson
A monument to their sheer joy in the game and their endless quote-books.
by gogotabata on
Sep 11, 2008 4:45 PM EDT
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i'm surprised so few people have mentioned aaron
aaron is certainly an all-time great and probably the most famous baseball player ever other than ruth. bonds passing 755 didn’t change that.
i’d go ruth, w johnson, aaron, bonds.
having said that, i couldn’t have named the four guys on the actual mount rushmore. (TR, really?) and i’m reasonably well-educated.
by jpahk on
Sep 11, 2008 4:49 PM EDT
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You didn't finish your sentence
having said that, i couldn’t have named the four guys on the actual mount rushmore. (TR, really?) and i’m reasonably well-educated, for a fish.
by gogotabata on
Sep 11, 2008 8:23 PM EDT
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+1 !
I can’t believe how many postings there were that didn’t include Aaron. Before this one, there was just one – and he included Sabathia, so that doesn’t really count. My four are Ruth, Mays, Aaron, and Walter Johnson (just edging Cy Young, Jackie Robinson, and Ted Williams).
by journeymen on
Sep 20, 2008 1:16 AM EDT
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The Mount Rushmore Scandal Edition
I will go with Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, and Elijah Dukes.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Sep 11, 2008 4:54 PM EDT
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Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Cy Young, and Michael Inoa
by FishHead on
Sep 11, 2008 5:22 PM EDT
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Inoa...
His first name is Michel… which excludes him from consideration cause it’s a girl’s name.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on
Sep 12, 2008 3:25 PM EDT
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No
Michel is a boy’s name. Michelle is a girl’s name.
http://www.chop-n-change.com
by alexwithclass on
Sep 13, 2008 4:35 PM EDT
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But wait
Wouldn’t that mean that Michel Foucault is a boy?
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Sep 13, 2008 9:21 PM EDT
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Tigers version
Greenberg, Kaline, Trammel and Whittaker.
by demondeaconsbaseball on
Sep 11, 2008 9:37 PM EDT
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Crap
Forgot Ty Cobb…
Make it Greenberg, Cobb, Kaline and Trammel… hate to drop Sweet Lou though…
by demondeaconsbaseball on
Sep 11, 2008 9:37 PM EDT
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Both Together
Couldn’t you just put Tammel and Whitaker together? Maybe half of each of their faces? Or siamese twins or something?
by journeymen on
Sep 20, 2008 1:19 AM EDT
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Ruth, Mays, Robinson, Stairs
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Sep 11, 2008 11:55 PM EDT
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If carved into a "special" kind of rock...
Strawberry, Gooden, Howe, Raines
by Snake the Jake on
Sep 12, 2008 9:14 AM EDT
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maybe...
I would replace Howe with the Pittsburgh Parrot though.
by Snake the Jake on
Sep 12, 2008 9:16 AM EDT
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How about two Rushmores?
One for hitters, and one for pitchers.
Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Willie Mays and Jackie Robinson
Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux
This is with qualifying for PEDs. I just don’t think a Bonds or Clemens would make Mt. Rushmore (rightly or wrongly) because of the scandal. With that being said, I think the hitters are pretty easy, at least for me. The pitchers were much harder, because you have to consider different eras and how long all of their careers have lasted. Young and Johnson are shoo-ins for me. Pedro was pretty easy as well, since he’s got the highest ERA+ in history for starters and had the most dominant six years in the history of the sport. Maddux is under appreciated and represents a different style of pitcher than the rest.
by seabass on
Sep 12, 2008 10:56 AM EDT
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As much as I love Maddux...
I would like to see Bob Gibson up there more. Cy Young and Walter Johnson are representing the earlier years of baseball, and Pedro can represent the current era, but I like Gibson in there to represent baseball in the middle of the 1900s.
Can’t complain about your hitters, but I really wish there were room for Cobb in there. I know he was a despicable human, but I still think he may have been one of the 2 or 3 greatest hitters ever. My dream baseball situation would be Gibson pitching to Ty Cobb. Tell me that wouldn’t be an epis at bat!!! Until Cobb rushed the mound cause he just got beaned by a black man lol.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on
Sep 12, 2008 3:24 PM EDT
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re: maddux
i’d take off pedro for gibson every day of the week and twice on sundays…..pedro had a nice run….but maddux did it longer, and arguably just as well…..koufax had a nice run, but gibson at the same time did it longer and arguably just as well….that’s why while i may pick pedro and koufax’s peak years over maddux’s, they aren’t on that mountain….maddux is top 10 all time in wins, and with one more year, he very well could be top 5….
speaking of which, no mention of walter spahn, nolan ryan, or tom seaver in the pitching mountain does surprise me….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on
Sep 14, 2008 10:44 PM EDT
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Easy for me.
Babe Ruth, Jackie Robinson, Kennesaw Mountain Landis, Marvin Miller and Branch Rickey.
by GoGorath on
Sep 12, 2008 2:46 PM EDT
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And here's the justification
Babe Ruth – redefined the sport with his power. Helped save it from the Black Sox scandal.
Jackie Robinson – broke the color barrier.
Landis – Most influential commissioner ever, redefined the owner structure, key after the Black Sox scandal.
Marvin Miller – defining figure of the move to Free Agency and the strong player’s union.
Branch Rickey – basically created farm systems and helped break the color barrier.
I wish I could find a 19th century player, but I don’t know a definite one.
by GoGorath on
Sep 12, 2008 2:53 PM EDT
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Only one problem...
Mt. Rushmore only had four people, yours has five. And an argument could be made that with Ruth on the mountain, there is only room for two others lol. I do like that you included front office personel though. I completely forgot Miller when I was listing F.O. people up above.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on
Sep 12, 2008 3:35 PM EDT
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True and I guess I could try to figure out who to drop
I just think I would make mine more of an “impact on the game” not the “best four.”
by GoGorath on
Sep 12, 2008 3:36 PM EDT
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The Jewish Mt. Rushmore
Sandy Koufax, Hank Greenberg, Al Rosen, Ryan Braun
by benzalman on
Sep 12, 2008 3:49 PM EDT
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Shawn Green...
…might deserve some consideration – 328 lifetime home runs.
by wonderphenom on
Sep 14, 2008 12:42 AM EDT
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Mine
Luis Sojo
Enrique Wilson
Miguel Cairo
Bubba Crosby
http://yankeesmtom.blogspot.com/
by hallofamer2000 on
Sep 12, 2008 5:41 PM EDT
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I'd go with the game changers
Agree with gogorath on these three:
Babe Ruth – The original and greatest superstar
Jackie Robinson – Changed the world forever
Marvin Miller – The game will never be the same
Then I’d go with a pitcher, and I’d take Christy Mathewson.
Flaxseed oil dependent
by 3Com Park on
Sep 12, 2008 5:59 PM EDT
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The guys tourists would pay money to see
Don Mossi, Tony Fernandez, Oscar Gamble, Julian Tavarez.
http://www.chop-n-change.com
by alexwithclass on
Sep 12, 2008 9:03 PM EDT
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Easy
Eddie Gaedel, Mark Fidrych, Danny Ainge & The Mad Hungarian
by Con on
Sep 12, 2008 9:38 PM EDT
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Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Walter Johnson, Honus Wagner
Hon Mention:
Koufax, Mantle, Musial, Williams, Lefty Grove, Pedro, Bonds, Denton True Young, Ty Cobb, Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins, Johnny Bench, Yogi, Mike Schmidt, Speaker, Feller, Rocket.
by alskor on
Sep 12, 2008 10:43 PM EDT
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22 Faces...
on your Rushmore MLB mounument and Aaron isn’t anywhere to be found?
by Con on
Sep 13, 2008 1:59 AM EDT
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Bad omission on my part
I would put him in the honorable mention.
I do typically prefer peak over longevity, though, but Aaron still deserves to be mentioned.
by alskor on
Sep 14, 2008 4:55 AM EDT
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Hrmm
Ruth, Young, Aaron, and Robinson. I just don’t see how Hank Aaron doesn’t make this list, and the same goes for Robinson, Ruth, and Young. Willie Mays certainly has an argument, though.
I’m surprised there isn’t any more of a push for Jeter. ;)
by GuyinNY on
Sep 13, 2008 1:39 PM EDT
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jeter
would have trouble making a yankee top 10….let alone a top 4 of all time….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on
Sep 14, 2008 10:46 PM EDT
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Yankee Top Ten?
Off the top of my head, and this list is subject to change, I’d venture to say …
1) Ruth
2) Mantle
3) Gehrig
4) Dimaggio
5) Berra
6) Rivera
7) Jeter
8) Ford
9) Lazzerri
10) Mattingly
by GuyinNY on
Sep 14, 2008 11:12 PM EDT
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Lazzeri
overrated… Mattingly should be above him. Lazzeri was a decent player, but was elected to the HOF by the Vets committee in 1991. This has given many the impression he was another surefire HOFer that was always hailed among the Yankee greats… not really true. The Veterans committee elected some pretty crappy guys in those days. Very good player with lots of interesting stories, but I dont think he cracks the Yankee top 10.
Here’s a few names: Hal Chase, Gossage, Rivera, Nettles, Reggie, Munson, Lefty Gomez, Earle Combs..
by alskor on
Sep 15, 2008 3:25 AM EDT
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Hrm..
Without knowing how his glove played, or whether or not he was inordinately good in clutch situations, I’d have to agree with you on Lazzeri. I’d rather Ruffing than Gomez, and I don’t really see Gossage as fitting in, either. Gossage, A-Rod, and Reggie all fit into this nebulous 5-6 season range of really great performance, but it’s just not long enough to really merit a spot. On further review, it pretty much has to be Thurman Munson. Nettles has an argument, as does Bernie Williams (a very strong one, actually) and Andy Pettitte does too, actually. But I think I’ll go with Munson.
by GuyinNY on
Sep 15, 2008 9:39 AM EDT
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I'd take Nettles over Munson, easy
Best defensive 3B of his time behind Brooks Robinson, very good hitter (not Brett or Schmidt, but, hey…).
good call on Bernie
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Sep 15, 2008 10:27 AM EDT
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No Rizzuto or Gordon?
Both of them were better than Lazzeri, for sure Rizzuto by a long way.
OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG
by devil_fingers on
Sep 15, 2008 10:25 AM EDT
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obviously
philip hughes ian kennedy and joba chamberlain
by Duece on
Sep 13, 2008 2:37 PM EDT
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McAllister too
Take out Joba and put in McAllister and Tabata and you complete the Mt Rushmore of recent overrated Yankee prospects.
If you dig back we get Ed Yarnall, Ricky Ledee and Kevin Maas, etc…
by alskor on
Sep 14, 2008 5:05 AM EDT
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Hughes
Weren’t impressed by him K-ing 12 in 5 innings the other day in AAA I gather?
http://yankeesmtom.blogspot.com/
by hallofamer2000 on
Sep 15, 2008 10:01 PM EDT
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The operative words
were “in aaa”
Are you saying this season has been anything other than a HUGE dissapointment for Hughes? If not, Im sure what your point is.
by alskor on
Sep 15, 2008 10:25 PM EDT
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Early
A little early to be giving up on the consensus top pitching prospect of 2007, no? Hughes had an injury, and while that is becoming an all-too-common concern, are you really ready to say that he belongs with Yarnall, Ledee, and Maas in bustville? The same goes for Kennedy, McAllister, and even Tabata. One bad year does not a career make, no?
by GuyinNY on
Sep 15, 2008 10:31 PM EDT
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Reportedly the highest velocity reading Hughes had that day was 91.
And half of Durham’s team had been called up at that point.
Tools Whore
Sign Bonds!
by Tyler on
Sep 15, 2008 10:34 PM EDT
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I didnt say "bustville"
I said “overrated”
by alskor on
Sep 15, 2008 10:39 PM EDT
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Also
My initial post was meant mostly in jest
by alskor on
Sep 15, 2008 10:51 PM EDT
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Correct
You didn’t say he was headed to bustville. You implied it. Tell me, what do you think of Hughes at this point? He remains only 22 years old…
by GuyinNY on
Sep 15, 2008 10:52 PM EDT
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Welcome
…to the Mt. Rushmore thread – not to be confused with the super serious thread.
Now tell me, which of these terms better describes Phil Hughes to this point:
a) Smashing Success; or
b) Bust
As for my actual opinion of Hughes, I think there are serious concerns with his stuff, velocity and health at this point. The jury is still out, of course, but there are now red flags all over the place. Ive downgraded him a good bit, and I dont think his ceiling is as high as I used to. His stuff just hasnt looked that good this season or frankly, since he lost the perfect game in Texas last year. He doesnt impress you to watch him. Looks like a mid rotation type in both stuff and results now… Next year is a HUGE year for him.
by alskor on
Sep 15, 2008 10:57 PM EDT
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Success
He’s 22, he’s already had major league success, and he’s finally looking healthy. I see a great buy low opportunity. Hughes has had a rough patch, but he’s got a whole winter ahead of him to get ready for next year. I haven’t seen Hughes since he got back from injury, but I’ll wait till he’s faced major league hitting (after dominating AAA) before declaring him something less than someone who looks like a future top of the rotation starter.
As an aside, I’d have thought you’d prefer a pitcher with his sort of injury history. After all, it means he’s logging fewer innings, so that must great for his development, right?
by GuyinNY on
Sep 15, 2008 11:11 PM EDT
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What?
1) “He’s already had major league success”
He only has 94.2 MLB IP and he has a 5.51 ERA in those innings, to go with only 71 K, 98 hits and 42 walks. That is not “success” any way you cut it.
2) “and he’s finally looking healthy”
What, this week? Look at his year as a whole… he’s looked healthy??
3) “As an aside, I’d have thought you’d prefer a pitcher with his sort of injury history. After all, it means he’s logging fewer innings, so that must great for his development, right?”
Is this a joke? I guess we should be really excited about Fautino De Los Santos then, right? I mean he’s been so injured he’s logged NO innings! That must be great for his development.
Honestly, when youre trying to construe the fact he’s been hurt all year as a plus its hard to see that as anything other than being a homer. If you want to look at it as the upside to something that’s gone wrong – trying to make the best of a bad situation, fine… BUT under no circumstances would anyone EVER prefer the pitcher with injuries. Its certainly not a plus for his development that he’s been hurt.
by alskor on
Sep 16, 2008 12:23 AM EDT
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94.2 MLB IP and he has a 5.51 ERA in those innings, to go with only 71 K, 98 hits and 42 walks
That can be considered a success to some. As a Mariner fan… I think that would make him our #2 starter lol.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on
Sep 16, 2008 3:17 AM EDT
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Skewed
Those figures are skewed by Hughes’ injury from the start of the season. His pitching was abhorrent. However, as a 21 year old in 2007, Hughes managed to post a 4.46 ERA in 72 IP, including a very impressive September/October, pitched without his best stuff. What we see on balance is a pitcher who performed well for the majority of his time in the majors, and poorly at the start of this season when he was hurt (broken rib).
I would argue that Hughes is finally looking healthy, based on his strong performance in AAA and the fact that he is medically cleared. He’s coming along nicely, and we’ll see him against MLB hitters later this week. Don’t be surprised when/if Hughes is suddenly generating a little buzz around him.
Finally, yes, I was joking about Hughes throwing fewer innings due to injury. It’s a point that I HAVE seen thrown about on this site very seriously, generally in relation to Josh Beckett, who never logged serious duty early in his career due to a series of injuries that weren’t related to his arm. The idea is that this saved his arm from being overworked. You’ve clearly established that you believe working young arms is fraught with peril, and you even seem to agree that a silver lining to Hughes’ injuries is that he’s been saved from (over)work, though your preference is clearly (and rightly) in favor of simply limiting a healthy pitcher’s innings.
Please, tell me why it is you think a rough season, caused mostly by injury, is reason enough to downgrade Hughes’ projection from a potential front end starter to a middle of the rotation one?
by GuyinNY on
Sep 16, 2008 9:45 AM EDT
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I think a rough season, whatever the cause, is reason to downgrade anyone
But that’s about prospect status, not necessarily ceiling. That is to say, I downgrade him there because his rough ceiling and injuries make it less likely that he will hit his ceiling.
His stuff combined with injury concerns are the reasons I would downgrade his ceiling though. His stuff just doesnt look good anymore. That’s the most troubling thing. His stuff hasnt looked good this year. Maybe its rib injury – in fact likely its rib injury – but its another unknown… another negative mark against him. Who knows if his stuff comes back? Who knows what he’s like going forward?
I really dont think 72 IP of 4.46 ERA is anything to get excited about…
by alskor on
Sep 16, 2008 3:01 PM EDT
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I don't get it....
Why the powdered sugar? Is that a joke about baseball players being fat? Are you hinting that baseball players aren’t real athletes? Everyone eats powdered sugar donuts, not just baseball players.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on
Sep 15, 2008 4:49 PM EDT
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Nats
Wilkerson, Soriano, Cordero, Zimmerman
Hahah
by chrislikeskane on
Sep 15, 2008 3:37 PM EDT
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no question
Cantu, Uggla, Hanley, Jacobs
by stogies on
Sep 16, 2008 10:24 PM EDT
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Terrible Defensive Infielders...?
Am I right?
by alskor on
Sep 16, 2008 11:51 PM EDT
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Ruth, Aaron, Ted Williams, Bonds
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on
Sep 19, 2008 3:18 AM EDT
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Mine would be...
.Ruth (easy choice; easily the best all-around player ever)
Williams: best hitter ever.
Walter Johnson; easily the best pitcher ever
Mantle or Mays; you can’t go wrong with either one; both very close
by DJSkillz on
Sep 22, 2008 12:49 PM EDT
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