Alderson/Bumgarner or Anderson/Cahill?
Was reading Keith Law's chat today and someone asked this question:
Jeremy (NY): Alderson/Bumgarner or Anderson/Cahill?
Keith Law: Can I have them all? I'll take the SF kids.
Got me to thinking what some other people thought on this question. So here goes.
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2 recs |
36 comments
Comments
Anderson and Cahill may have a lower ceiling...
but they are closer to being ready for the A’s and are less of a risk at this point. From a fantasy baseball standpoint, I would take the S.F. duo.
Mike Newman
baseballhandyman.blogspot.com
by Baseball Handyman on Aug 21, 2008 5:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Disagree...
I like Cahill the best of any of them. I think he has the highest ceiling. Not as high on Anderson.
Id rate them:
1) Cahill
2) Bumgarner
3) Alderson & Anderson (tie)
IMHO, you go for the deal with the best prospect in it if theyre close, and I think that’s the Oakland pair here.
by alskor on Aug 21, 2008 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough, but you really think Cahill has the highest ceiling. Bumgarner’s ceiling is sky high—not to say he is going to get there, of course.
by haverecords on Aug 23, 2008 7:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Response
Huh, very good question.
I think I’d take the Giants on this one, despite how much I love both of the Oakland guys. Bumgarner’s a special arm and the best prospect of the four. I still love Alderson’s command and if he can shore himself up a bit against lefties he’s going to be a very useful pitcher as well. High floor, and while I’m still a little skeptical as to what his ceiling looks like he does all the things you want a young pitcher to do and the stuff is real . . .so I’m keeping an open mind.
Anderson and Cahill are both great prospects with frontline starter potential, but at the same time it’s a very distinct possibility in my mind that they’re both “just” solid mid-rotation starters. It’s a possibility with all talented young pitchers obviously, but I think the chances there are a little higher than those of a couple of guys like Bumgarner and Alderson, who are operating well above the typical development curve for most pitching prospects.
by mrkupe on Aug 21, 2008 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with the analysis
But, for the A’s organization, you have to go with higher floor guys even if their ceiling is lower. That’s really the only way a team on a limited budget (and less margin for error) can operate. So while the Giants guys are probably better prospects, the A’s guys might be safer and, for the A’s at least, probably a better duo to have (especially because they also have those high ceiling/flame out candidates in H-Rod and a couple others).
by thejd44 on Aug 21, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Response
I don’t see Alderson as a low floor high ceiling guy . . .he’s closer to the opposite if you had to pick one or the other, I think.
Bumgarner isn’t exactly low floor either . . .any teenager who pumps mid-90s heat for strikes projects to be a useful starter even on a conservative development curve, IMO. Lowest floor of all these guys, perhaps. Low floor generally speaking, probably not.
by mrkupe on Aug 21, 2008 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Methinks you’ve said it, as accurately and exactly as can be done.
by haverecords on Aug 23, 2008 7:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it Up Side vs Probability
Giants guys Up Side and A’s guys Probability.
"With 16-year-old Dominican righty Michel Inoa in tow, Gio Gonzalez improving at Triple-A and lefty Brett Anderson carving up Double-Abatters along with Simmons and Trevor Cahill, Oakland’s pitching depthis officially the envy of baseball." - BaseballAmerica.com
by Syphon on Aug 21, 2008 5:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
I have to admit that ingeneral I have never really related to the concept of High Ceiling/ Low Floor. In general if a guy has the potential to be better than someone he also has a more LIKELY chance of being better doesn’t he??
I can see this when you are comparing a kid who is 17 and in Rookie Ball to one who is in 23 and in AAA or something just because of the pure percentage of injuries to young pitchers but…
In this case we have 2 pitchers who are about 20 1/2 years old (Anderson and Cahill) one who turns 20 in November (Alderson) and one who just turned 19 (Gardenhoser).
I guess by that resoning that makes Bumgarner slightly more risky but that is just prospect “templating” as i call it. Thats when you look at the age or the “type” of player but not at THE PLAYER.
The way Bumgarner throws and that fact that people act like he throws 100% fastballs doesn’t make him seem like an injury risk to me.
Alderson is a strike-throwing and command freak and a favorite of mine i admit because I put him at #7 on my little propect list before the season when he had 5 pro innings under his belt. I feel his upside is GREATLT underated by most on here.
Anderson gets seeminly the least ink of the four..maybe…but his conditioning has come a LONG way in a year and his stuff and command combo is really impressive as well.
Cahill has had the most impressive season to me just based on age and WHERE he has pitched. Bumgarner has obviously been more dominant but at a lower level.
The interesting thing to me is that from the little I have seen ALL of them pitch Cahill seems like the most risky the way he breaks of those unhittable sliders or whatever breaking pitch he throws. The other 3 seeminly have great fastball command as thier #1 asset at this point. Not saying Cahill doesn’t command his fastball well or that i predict anything bad for him but when forced to look at the question as if i had to pick I may take BOTH the Giant’s kids over the A’s kids. Then again, i might change my mind if you ask me tomorrow.
by casejud on Aug 22, 2008 1:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have to admit that in general I have never really related to the concept of High Ceiling/ Low Floor. In general if a guy has the potential to be better than someone he also has a more LIKELY chance of being better doesn’t he??
Not at all, in my opinion. Often the guys with the most potential are the most likely to flame out.
by alskor on Aug 22, 2008 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a catch-22
If a kid like say, Triunfel “flames out” as you say it’ll be chalked up the “mysterious” quality of some players just don’t make and not another concept…
He wasn’t that good in the first place!
What i think of as a falme-out is when a player, particularily a PITCHER, gets hurt. In that case i believ in it…high/ low floor/ceiling. I still think it’s a silly concept though. It is basically IMAGINARY. People want to belive that say, Micheal Almanzar is going to be the next Adain Beltre (or BETTER as delusional as some are) and if he isn’t or doesn’t make the big leagues they will say it was because he had a “low floor” and not that THEY MISEVALUATED HOW GOOD HE WAS
by casejud on Aug 22, 2008 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Toss-Up
I think Bumgarner’s the best of the four, Alderson the worst. Really, I think Law had it about right—everyone wins here. But Bumgarner has the best chance to be a lights-out, true number one starter, and it’s hard to not go with that guy.
by aap212 on Aug 22, 2008 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Very close....
But I will take the A’s. Cahill’s intelligence and poise are huge pluses for me, and I think his velocity could continue to go up (I could see him topping out at 95 by the time he matures). A FB with plus velocity + good sinking movement to go along with a plus change and a good curve is a solid skill set to work with, and I see him as a future top of the rotation starter. The fact that he is closer to his ceiling than any of the other prospects mentioned is just icing on the cake. While I think Bum has a great chance at being a dominant pitcher, he is just too far away from that ceiling to justify having him ahead of Cahill. I see Anderson and Alderson as equal prospects.
by soccerman0 on Aug 22, 2008 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A year?
Bumgarner is pretty much exactly where Cahill was a year ago isnt he? If you would have ranked cahill as high last year as you do right now you would have been doing what is known as “projecting”.
i say…why wait!? I predict/project based on Bumgarners’s season this year that he will have a Cahill-like season next year…ending in AA like him. Sure, lots can happen in a season but it isn’t always BAD things.
I’ll take Madison.
by casejud on Aug 22, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference is...
..that in A (2007), Cahill pitched well using a 3 pitch mix, and was thus prepared for high levels this year. Bumgarner will not continue to have this kind of success without a good variety of secondary pitches (which are hampered by his arm slot), and thus I predict that he will have a harder time moving through the system than Cahill has.
by soccerman0 on Aug 22, 2008 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever!!
This is so TIRED to me. This is the party line on this site and I can’t disagree more
A) If Bumgarner is doing THAT with just a fastball, believe me that fastball is good enough to get out guys in A+ and AA and most likely, the major Leagues
I REALLY wish ONE person would attemp to answer the next question…one
B) If what you say is true why wasn’t the 19 year old Cahill as good as last year as Bumgarner is this year? NOBODY will answer this one and I have no idea why other than to say that low A hitters cant hit a good fastball which is ASSININE to me. Thats what they are BEST at, at that point.
One other thing. Throwing a good variety of secondary pitches at age 19-20 isn’t highly recommended for long term major league sucess is it. I’d much rather here that a kid is DOMINATING with his fastball velocity combined with his fastball command. I know he’ll need some breking stuff down the line but thats a pretty solid start.
by casejud on Aug 22, 2008 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cahill wasn't
allowed to use his knuckle-curve which is a very good pitch and sets up his fastball
by samthefan on Aug 22, 2008 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HRod fastball
Counterpoint to A) I think that Henry Rodriguez proves that having a dominating 100mph fastball is not enough to move up by itself.
by movetotexas on Aug 22, 2008 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose...
but I might tend to think that in comparing a guy with 77 Walks in 109.2 innings to one with 20 in 137 that Rodrigue’s struggles might have a little to do with command as well. Bumgarner doesn’t have that problem.
by casejud on Aug 23, 2008 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To answer your question B....
Its because Bumgarner’s fastball is better than any pitch Cahill can throw at this point. When you get that kind of velocity behind a pitch that is located well, it will be able to get nearly everyone out in the lower minors. If you think one pitch will allow you to get people out in the majors, think again….If that was the case, Joel Zumaya would be a dominant SP.
This is from Mr. Badler over at BA on Bumgarner’s breaking stuff:
“….The breaking ball is making some progress, but it’s still sweep, and the arm slot might always inhibit the pitch for him. And he doesn’t really need a changeup against the hitters he’s facing, so he’s only a guy with one plus pitch right now. But he’s young, so he’s a good prospect, but I’m not as enamored as others.”
by soccerman0 on Aug 22, 2008 8:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe that...
The first part, that is. I don’t think that someone with just a fastball can get out even LOW-A kids. They are pros mostly BECAUSE they can hit a fastball. I’d say that it is either that Bumgarner A) has better breaking stuff than people are giving him credit for or B) His fastball is truly great
Zumaya is, again, a guy without great command. If he had it he likely would be a starter. He hasn’t had a lot of problems getting outs but he would have trouble going deep in games. Bumgarner pumps strike after strike so that isn’t going to be a problem.
by casejud on Aug 23, 2008 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've read reports
that he’s developing a good curve that has potential to be a plus pitch, and his changeup is already decent.
by boonitez on Aug 23, 2008 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol dude
The only reason Joel Zumaya’s not a dominant starter is because his arm comes off kind of like a Mr Potatohead arm. The one not injury-ridden season he had he friggin wrecked. Now he just can’t stay healthy. And it’d be even harder for him to stay healthy if he was a starter, as he would just get hurt faster throwing more pitches.
by boonitez on Aug 23, 2008 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
Zumaya isn’t a dominant starter because he doesn’t have more then 2 decent pitches. It is a lot easier to go all out for one inning, then half to labour over 7 innings. Go look at Smoltz strikeout rates as a closer and starter if you need proof. Zumaya has a great fastball that is enough to get hitters out for 1 inning but he does not half the secondary offerings to be an effective major league starter. That is why we so often see failed or washed up starters become effective closers (i.e. Gagne, Ecksersley, Isringhausen, Gordon, Mesa, Guardado, Wickman, Nathan, Aguilera, etc). You need at least 3 decent pitches to be able to go through an order multiple times as major league hitters will learn to adjust.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Aug 23, 2008 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Response
Zumaya is not a dominant starter because his stuff plays better out of a pen. He’s a guy with very good pitches, somewhat balky command, and a max-effort delivery.
He definitely had the pitches to make it as a starter. I recall hearing that all of his pitches rated as at least average if not better. He also showed the ability to eat a decent number of innings for a young pitcher, throwing 135 innings as a 19 year old and 151 innings as a 20 year old. He was an excellent major league pitcher at age 21, when lots of talented players are only holding their own at various levels of the minors. He likely would’ve been a starter in the minors had the Tigers not seen him as one of their best available arms in 2006 despite not having a rotation spot to give.
by mrkupe on Aug 23, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah
The guy only has 2 good pitches. It was known when he was starting in the minors that his future was in the pen. I similar example is Arredondo who produced good results as a starter in the minors but everyone accepted that his future was a back innings reliever.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Aug 23, 2008 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
look....
closer at the words Badler uses “And he doesn’t really need a changeup against the hitters he’s facing, so he’s only a guy with one plus pitch right now.” With ‘need’ the implication is that he hasn’t really learned ‘how’ to use the changeup—which is part of a plus change—rather than the action of the change itself. Most reports, have the action of the pitch being good.
by haverecords on Aug 23, 2008 7:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Response
Small size alert . . .but a quick look at the numbers.
Against LH batters, GB percentage is 39.2. Against RH batters, that GB percentage goes up to 43.0. This MIGHT suggest that Bumgarner’s change (which he most likely throws more often to righties than lefties) has enough sink on it to effectively produce groundballs. That’s a good start for an 18 y/o. Or it might just be a phantom of sample size, as I said.
by mrkupe on Aug 23, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cahill/anderson
considering their ages, small sample size of experience at the AA level…i think they did a solid job in a very tough and pressure packed olympics tournament.
it will be interesting to see how much more they pitch once they resume their minor league seasons
by Asfan4ever723 on Aug 23, 2008 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps Zumaya was a bad example ....
…but my whole point was that it will take time for Bumgarner to learn to effectively use his other pitches (tack on a bit more time if his arm slot does indeed hinder their progression). casejud stated that Bumgarner will have a year similar to the year Cahill had next year, and I just cant see that happening unless he works extremely hard all off season to try and tighten down those second offerings. Heck, even Poreda, who has control of a PLUS-PLUS fastball had issues in AA because his second offerings weren’t very good.
by soccerman0 on Aug 23, 2008 1:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
well he has a curveball that he's been working on all year
that’s supposed to be turning out nicely, and also his changeup. He very well could have a Cahill-like season next year.
by boonitez on Aug 23, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at Badler's comments posted above...
He says it has made some progress but is still “sweeping” and will probably always be inhibited by the arm slot he throws it at. Is that what you mean by "turning out nicely? Both his Curve and Change are WAY behind his fastball.
by soccerman0 on Aug 23, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's weird
I read from Andy Baggarly that it’s turning out nicely and that it has potential to be a plus pitch. And I didn’t say his curve or change were as good as his fastball. I simply said they were turning out nicely. And Badler’s opinion on his armslot doesn’t mean his curve won’t work. If what he said were absolutely true, nobody would be so high on him.
by boonitez on Aug 23, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People are high on him
…heck, I am high on him, because he is producing so well at such a young age. I love him as a prospect, and expect great things from him if he can indeed develop his secondary offerings. I expect that to take a few years though, and even then I don’t think he will ever have the kind of pitch mix that Cahill has.
by soccerman0 on Aug 23, 2008 9:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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