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Who Are Your '08 Draft Winners? Kneejerk Fun!

We should wait 10 years before analyzing a draft, but who wants to analyze the '98 draft?  Let's do this one before the ink dries.  Who came out as winners?  Who lost?  Who are your heroes, who are your villains?  (I'm guessing someone will pick Boras.)  What players did well, what players didn't?  Who had the best draft, who had the worst?

Mostly I want your opinions, but here are a couple of mine.

Star-divide

Winners:

Boston Red Sox - spent a TON of money on this draft.  Whether they get anything out of it remains to be seen.  I'm not sure I like their expensive draftees, except for Westmoreland.  But even if you want to argue that they got nothing but second- or third-tier draftees, they got a ton of them.

Every team in the top 5 - Surprisingly, it took until pick #6 for someone to not pick one of the best guys available.  Usually someone messes up before then.  Extra points to the Giants, getting Posey that "low".

The Rangers - I Heart Justin Smoak.  #11?  Really?

KC Royals - Getting Hosmer and Mellville.  Awesome.

Aaron Crow?  Maybe?  Just a thought, one I probably don't even really agree with, but could he go the Luke Hochevar route, prove himself in indy ball and go even higher next year?  (Probably not #1, since that's likely to be the Nationals again, but still.)

Final winner - Every player who signed for an above-slot bonus won.  There were record deals all-around.

 

Losers (easy targets):

The Nationals.  They lost out on the #9 overall pick over a difference of less than a million dollars.  They have a pretty bad farm system and really needed this one.  It's superearly, but I'm guessing they won't get anyone as good at #10.  Plus, they won't have quite as much leverage next year.  Oh well.  At least they could pick #1 next year.

The Mariners.  How's that fast-moving, win-now closer draftee doing?

The Yankees.  Not as much their fault, far as I'm concerned, since it at least seems that they had no way of knowing that Gerritt Cole would simply refuse to sign.  If they'd known he was that committed to attending college, they would've picked him in the later rounds.  As is, whoever's fault it is, they still lose, as they're not that likely to get as good a player with next year's #30 overall pick (it goes down one extra because of WAS, remember).

Marlins and Astros.  You don't pick a catcher just to pick a catcher in the first round, guys.

 

What do you think, guys?

3 recs | Comment 139 comments

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Staturday: Draft Edition

Jun 2008 from Athletics Nation - 50 comments

Comments

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Royals

They’re the big winner in my book. They came away with two top 15 draft prospects and spent over $11 mill on the draft. Dayton Moore is obviously focusing on projectable high school players, and they drafted a ton of young pitchers with upside.

by deezle on Aug 16, 2008 2:31 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeppers

Reason for hope for the diehards…let’s pray to the baseball gods that it works out…

by killa on Aug 17, 2008 3:22 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Response

Quick thoughts on your thoughts.

Boston had a nice draft, but I would’ve liked it a whole lot better if Casey Kelly was a RHP rather than a SS.

The Tim Melville signing is nice but should not be overstated. He’s an interesting prospect but almost every part of his game is projection. Hopefully the Royals take it slow with him.

Prediction: Aaron Crow goes mid-first round next year to the first team that realizes that he has basically no leverage when they get a compensation pick if he doesn’t sign. Crow tries to hold out but ends up conceding the point and signing for approx. $3M.

I didn’t get the impression that Marlins drafted Skipworth solely because he was a catcher. It seemed like a situation where a team found that they had a really good feel for a player with premium talent. I think that tends to be underrated as far as a player’s ability to develop in an organization.

Jason Castro wasn’t a horrid pick at 9 . . .perhaps not a huge ceiling but a solid enough looking player with a high floor. The Astros’ farm system needs pretty much anything and everything . . .not a sexy pick but he’ll be useful. And let’s give the Astros at least a little credit relative to previous draft efforts . . .they cut a nice little check to Ross Seaton.

by mrkupe on Aug 16, 2008 2:43 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

bingo

well said. The Astros still screwed up in letting third-rounder Chase Davidson go to college but they did go overslot to get two Texas prep arms in Seaton and Brad Dyldewicz.
This is a sharp contrast to other years where they have been so cheap they’ve basically let their whole draft walk away.
Last year they had no first or 2nd rounder to pay but they still didn’t sign their first pick (Ohio prep SS/RHP Derek Deitrich) and now he looks like a 2010 first rounder.

by nms on Aug 16, 2008 2:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as for the RedSox

MAN did they pay out a lot of money to get their guys. It seems like they went overslot with everyone. Kelly, Westmoreland and Hissey combined for 6 mil and few more guys got somewhat overslot deals (Lavarnaway, Gibson) and four late round HS arms added up to another 1 mil

by nms on Aug 16, 2008 2:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Melville

Even after his disappointing senior season, BA rated him the 15th overall prospect available in the draft. He was the #1 overall prep prospect after the 2007 summer circuit, and has been compared to Mark Prior and Phil Hughes.
\
Sure, he’s all about projection just like any HS kid, but unless you’re just flatly against rating HS players high, he should not be discounted.

Founder of the Rowdy Hardy Fan Club

by eazyb81 on Aug 16, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Response

Not all high school kids are all about projection. But Tim Melville is definitely about projection. Like I said, interesting prospect but there’s not much in the NOW department that suggests we’re looking at a truly elite guy in the making.

But was he worth the money to bring in? Sure, $1M and change isn’t excessive, and he fits the mold of what the Royals are looking for in their prospects.

by mrkupe on Aug 16, 2008 3:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Define "projection"

From reports I’ve read, Melville has elite stuff right now and has shown elite stuff in the past. I’m not sure how you look at that and say he doesn’t have much now that suggests he’s a truly elite guy.

Does he project to add a few more ticks to his FB or a bit more spin on his curve? Yeah, sure, just like almost every HS pitcher with the “projection” tab. But just saying he’s “interesting” and is all about projection is selling him short, IMO.

Founder of the Rowdy Hardy Fan Club

by eazyb81 on Aug 16, 2008 3:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.

by doublestix on Aug 16, 2008 3:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Response

FB sits 88-91, above-average curve, change is like that of 90 percent of other prep pitchers, command has been very good at times and very inconsistent at others. That is not “elite”. Compare him to any guy who’s been considered an exceptional prep pitcher in the last 5 years and he loses the argument. And – perhaps this is the biggest thing to consider – if his stuff really looked exceptional, he would not have slipped. All 30 teams passed on him at least once, even knowing that $1.5M was virtually a lock to get a deal done with him.

Sometimes it’s good to read between the lines.

by mrkupe on Aug 16, 2008 3:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Eh

Could really go without the snarky comment at the end when we’re discussing a player.

Not sure what reports you’re looking at, but I’ve got PGCrosschecker’s scouting report right here: 91-95 fastball, commands curve and changeup well. There are many similarities athletically and in pitching style/stuff between Melville and 2001 first rounder Mark Prior.

From KC Star piece: The scouting report on Melville is pretty flawless. He’s 6-foot-5 and 205 pounds, with a fastball that he spots well and throws hard — it sits in the low 90s and touches 96. His curveball is a swing-and-miss pitch, and he also throws a changeup.

Based on your analogy, Porcello is not “elite” because teams many teams passed on him as well. From Sam Mellinger’s blog: “Great sign, especially for the value,” says a National League scout. “I had him real high on my list, but we stayed away because we didn’t think he’d sign.” I’m guessing this was the case for many teams, as it appears many teams were scared off by the demands he faxed to each team before the draft to be paid as a top 10-15 prospect.

If you’re not high on him, fine, but saying he’s all projection at this point is just inaccurate.

Founder of the Rowdy Hardy Fan Club

by eazyb81 on Aug 16, 2008 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Response

There was nothing snarky intended about that. Rick Porcello signed for 4 times (on a major league contract!) as much as Tim Melville. And was still drafted in the first round despite that. Oftentimes, what teams do is much more representative than what they say.

If you think I’m trying to say that Melville sucks, I’m really not. He may end up being very good.

by mrkupe on Aug 16, 2008 4:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But cmon

Doesn’t the money amount at least reflect draft position? Nobody said he was as good as Porcello, but even so, BA had him ranked as the #1 HS entering 2007 for a reason. Give me 4 Melvilles and I bet I get 1 ace to #2-3 SP out of his talent. Tell me another 4th rounder who has ace talent. By the way, if you’re looking at HS numbers, go back to your PS3, because they matter…umm…zero

by killa on Aug 21, 2008 2:19 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Response

When did I say anything about his high school numbers? I really couldn’t care what the kid did in high school, he’s a pro now.

That is an exceptionally bold statement, I hope you realize. But are we talking about a frontline (1-2) starter or a mid-rotation (3-4) starter here? If you gave me a prospect identical to Melville WITH a track record of performance through, say, both levels of A ball, I’d guess that like 8-10 Melvilles would make 1 frontline starter. You’d probably get like another 2-3 who measured in somewhere at that 3-4 range. And that’s assuming that he’s a very successful pitcher through the low minors.

Does that sound pessimistic? I sure hope so, cause young pitchers should make you think that. We can guess that Pitching Prospect A is going to be better than Pitching Prospect B, but it’s all on a relative scale. When we narrow the focus down to one pitching prospect in particular, I don’t find myself very excited by all but a very few select arms.

If you disagree with me, that’s fine. Let’s jump in a time machine and head back a couple of years so I can sell you some Homer Bailey cards.

by mrkupe on Aug 21, 2008 3:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Deric Ladnier said yesterday that all three of Melville’s pitches are “above average major league quality”.

by deezle on Aug 16, 2008 3:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think that means too much

considering that is the dude that drafted him.

by nms on Aug 16, 2008 4:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why would he lie?

And either way, it’s another data point to prove easyb81’s point.

by deezle on Aug 16, 2008 4:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lie?

who said anything about lying?

People exaggerate things all the time. There isn’t a scouting director in the world that doesn’t try to oversell the abilities of dudes they just paid a million dollars too. I would too, and so would you.

by nms on Aug 16, 2008 4:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay

Why did he exaggerate? And why did Baseball America exaggerate? And why did Perfect Game and others exaggerate? Melville has been almost universally regarded as a top draft prospect with everything you look for in a top HS pitcing prospect. All of that goes against the other guy’s point that Melville is all projection.

by deezle on Aug 16, 2008 4:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not discounting what BA or PG said

And I’m not saying that Melville isn’t all that. I’m not commenting on the merits of Melville at all.

I’m just saying that a scouting director praising the guy he just paid 7 figures to doesn’t really tell you a whole lot. OF COURSE he is going to talk up his pitches. And if you can’t understand why the director would do that, after paying him 1.25 mil… well then that is a problem that goes beyond baseball. Thats just common sense.

by nms on Aug 16, 2008 4:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ladnier

Perhaps if you knew how good a cout Ladnier was, you wouldn’t discount his analysis so quickly. That said, of course scouts like their guys, by definition. You cannot argue 2 things: the guys was a first round talent, and he was rated as #1 HS prospect coming into his senior season. This is a straight up coup for the money, as it basically gives the Royals 2 first round picks, in addition to Sample and Montgomery. Based on scouting reports and projections, you cannot argue that another team got a better Top 4.

by killa on Aug 21, 2008 2:23 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nobody's disputing that he's a good prospect

They’re saying he isn’t as good as Rick Porcello. Very different things,

www.loftylantern.com

by OldProspects on Aug 21, 2008 8:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dude

What HSer has “much in the NOW” dept? I challenge you to find a better 4th Round or later pick. I’m pretty sure Tim Beckham, Eric Hosmer, and the rest of the HSers also have a lot of projection, but they don’t have much NOW.

Just Sayin

by killa on Aug 17, 2008 3:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Response

Wow. If you’ll go look in the Royals thread, you’ll note that I said that Melville is a grade B. Which means that I think he makes for a pretty good prospect.

But I don’t get why I’m supposed to think he’s an elite pitching prospect at this point. I’d obviously be going against the opinion of a lot of MLB teams that clearly didn’t think he was in June. Every team let him pass by at least once, even in rounds where they would’ve been compensated had they not been able to come to agreement with him. Even when he finally did sign, he signed for $1.25 million, which should be recognized as a tacit acknowledgment by the Melville camp themselves as to exactly how much he was worth. He did not get Rick Porcello’s $7 million contract or anything close to it. He didn’t even get Trey Haley’s $1.575 million bonus, and you don’t hear people talking up Haley as the next big thing. Maybe by this time next year Melville will be an outstanding pitching prospect, and to be totally honest with you I really hope he is. But that doesn’t mean I should feel that way now.

It’s okay to feel good about your team’s prospects and everything, but I don’t understand why you and others are getting so defensive about me expressing some reservations about a kid with no minor league experience who spent most of the spring making scouts wonder just what was up with him.

by mrkupe on Aug 17, 2008 4:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

mrkrupe the voice of reason here.

by haverecords on Aug 17, 2008 5:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Draft placement

I actually agree with your overall evaluation of Melville; he’s not a Porcello type talent and B looks to me just about perfect.

However, your justification strikes me as flawed. Teams passed on him three times not because of talent concerns but because none of them thought he would sign without a huge bonus. KC, his hometown team, is probably the only team that could have signed him for 1.25 mil.

Teams passing is not an indication of talent.

by aCone419 on Aug 17, 2008 4:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

+1

it’s like i tell my royals fan friend…if you weren’t the royals, you would not have gotten melville

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Aug 17, 2008 6:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No way...

BS.

Melville’s asking price of $1.5 million was not that high, certainly nowhere near high enough for big market teams to pass on him multiple times if they really wanted him. The Red Sox drafted Kelly in the 1st round and they preferred him as a PITCHER. They ended up signing Kelly for something like $3 million and knew all along they’d need to pay that much to get him signed. They clearly had the money to EASILY sign Melville but decided to take Kelly instead. The Yankees passed on Melville for Cole who’s asking price was also considerably larger, turns out they didn’t even get him signed after they offered $4 million.

Melville fell because he had a piss-poor season (for a supposed great talent) and his stuff dropped off considerably. Royals fans in this thread are greatly overstating his current stuff…Mark Prior? Are you kidding me? He’s currently a low 90’s pitcher who pitched around 90mph this past season. His offspeed stuff is promising but inconsistent. He is a good prospect but it appears that actual teams seemed to be more worried/not as impressed by him than BA. This was a record breaking year in terms of the money thrown around, with quite a few players receiving near $1 million or exceeding $1 million past the first few rounds. If you think that Melville fell that far because of his $1.5 million demand then you are either delusional or a giant homer. Comparison to Porcello? Porcello was asking for $6+ million plus an MLB contract and he still didn’t fall out of the first, if Melville was as good as Royals fans here are harping him as there is no way he would have fallen to the 4th with a $1.5 million demand, period.

by metafour on Aug 18, 2008 10:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just to put Melville's 1.5 M asking price into perspective...

Robbie Ross was asking for a contract in the1.5 M range before the draft and was selected with the 11th pick in the 2nd Round. All teams knew of his demands prior to the draft and yet that forced him to the 2nd instead of late first or a supplemental pick.

I am not saying that Ross is a better prospect, but their is some reason that Melville slipped so far while Ross only slipped to the 2nd.

by laxtonto on Aug 18, 2008 11:19 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Reason

The reason is the other teams didn’t think he would sign. His reported asking price was top 10-15 money, which is higher than what Ross signed for.

by aCone419 on Aug 18, 2008 12:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"asking price"

As far as I can tell, Melville did not float a hard asking price before the draft; what he did do is fax all MLB teams saying he would only consider signing if he was offered a bonus worthy of a top 10 or 15 draft prospect. He also had a UNC offer in his back pocket, a tough program to pry away HS players.

Melville accepted a $1.25MM bonus from the Royals, and many have speculated that he would have only been willing to sign with the Royals. In an article with the KC Star, Royals Scouting Director Deric Ladnier admitted that Melville was almost family at this point, and Melville himself said right after he was drafted that he felt most comfortable with the KC organization.

Thus, I think it’s too simplistic to just look at the overall bonus numbers to deduce that Melville was not viewed as high by MLB teams as publications like BA.

Founder of the Rowdy Hardy Fan Club

by eazyb81 on Aug 18, 2008 2:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sh....

A) I’m not a Royals fan, so I can’t be a homer. That must make me delusional. Thanks for the diagnosis.

B) The fact that the Red Sox liked Kelly and the Yankees liked Cole has nothing to do with evaluating Melville. All three were projected first round talents, and a team preferring one to the others means jack diddly is hardly shocking.

C) You are free to speculate all you want, but I am basing my analysis on quotes I have read from people in the industry and their reaction. They thought there was no way he would sign if he fell out of the first round, and that the Royals got a hell of a deal.

D) I think Melville was dead serious about going to UNC, a la Matt Harvey, except that his hometown team drafted him. I think other teams knew this.

E) I specifically said he WASN’T like Porcello, so… chill out.

by aCone419 on Aug 18, 2008 11:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

QUOTES

“Great sign, especially for the value,” says a National League scout. “I had him real high on my list, but we stayed away because we didn’t think he’d sign.”

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

“That’s something,” says a scout from a different NL team. “This kid really has a chance to be special. I know people there (in Kansas City) see a lot of losing, but I know a lot of guys who work for your team, and they’re really doing it the right way. It’ll take a while, if it does happen, but they’re really doing it right.”

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

“Could be the real deal,” says an AL scout who saw Melville many times. “Could be better than any of these guys they’ve signed in a long time. He’s what they’re supposed to look like.” He’s 6-5, big, strong, athletic, who says this guy can’t be Roger Clemens? Seriously. He’s got a chance to be a (No.) 2 or 3 starter in the big leagues."

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

But two of these scouts say they had Melville rated higher than Aaron Crow, the Mizzou right-hander who went ninth to the Nationals and is reported to be looking for a big-league contract for “premium dollars.”

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

And the biggie…

Before and after the draft, Melville and his family grew closer and closer with scouting director Deric Ladnier and other members of the Royals’ staff. That relationship was so close that many in baseball circles felt the Royals were the only organization that could get Melville to skip his scholarship to play at North Carolina.

Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.

by doublestix on Aug 18, 2008 2:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Response

I would’ve been very surprised if Melville had left $1.25M on the table from any team. He clearly wanted to sign if the money was close enough. The UNC commitment wasn’t even a factor until teams started to sour on him a bit. And I can’t think that the hometown discount was that major . . .I would suggest that even in the worst case, $1.5M gets this deal done.

It was never a matter of Melville falling out of the first round, because as we all know, first round talents don’t get drafted in the first round all the time, often because of money. But most teams had a chance to draft him multiple times and chose not to do so, even those for whom a $1.5M signing bonus would’ve been easily doable. He would’ve made a fine insurance policy in the worst case for the Yankees with Cole, and the Yankees love projection pitchers. The Red Sox clearly have no issues about handing a premium level talent a huge signing bonus to get a deal done. The Angels didn’t even draft until No. 74, so certainly they had the money to blow on a Melville. They actually ended up in almost exactly the same situation last year with Matt Harvey (Angels drafted one guy ahead of him at No. 58) . . .notably, Harvey passed up an offer for TWICE as much as the one that Melville accepted.

by mrkupe on Aug 18, 2008 1:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

1.5m

I’m not sure where this number is coming from (not saying it is wrong), but the story as I heard it (according to Callis) was that right before the draft he politely faxed his demands to teams and said that he would need top 10-15 money to sign, which works out to 1.75m at minimum. So regardless of what might actually have taken, at the time, it looked like teams were passing on him because they didn’t think he would sign.

And the fact the Red Sox or whoever passed on him thrice doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have taken and paid him later. See Will Middlebrooks in the 5th last year. They “passed” on Westmoreland four times this year before paying him eleventy billion dollars. It might just as easily mean they thought he would slide farther and they could still take him. Or perhaps the teams that thought highest of him were not the teams with unlimited checkbooks, and they were scared off. You seem to be making a lot assumptions about the thought processes of teams, when there are simpler explanations readily available.

As for someone taking him as an insurance policy, that doesn’t usually happen in the top three rounds.

by aCone419 on Aug 18, 2008 1:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

His mom

Wrote a letter, check out the scout.com thread for this, Melville wasn’t even in charge. Bottom line, he slipped due to signability concerns, and has the upside of an ace. This is pretty consistent fomr what I’ve ssen.

by killa on Aug 21, 2008 2:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Response

To the post above this one: the easiest answer is that teams simply didn’t think the kid was worth what he was very publicly asking for. If they honestly thought he was the talent that some are suggesting he is, the money figures being tossed around should have hardly been enough to deter a team from taking him. It’s pretty obvious that while there are some scouts who very much like him, there are plenty of scouts who didn’t think he was worth the money or trouble, and I don’t know why they would’ve changed their mind in the last two months of inactivity.

As has been noted by BA, a whopping 4 teams did not go over slot at any point in the draft this year. I really doubt that Melville’s signability was that much of a question to TWENTY FIVE different teams (30 – those 4 teams – the Royals). Something really doesn’t add up here, and at least one of the following seems to be true:

1) Teams weren’t cheap, but they WERE cheap when it came to a guy once hailed as one of the best pitchers in his class
2) Teams are dumb, they just totally forgot Tim Melville existed until the 4th round
3) Everybody suddenly believed that Melville’s UNC commitment (the one that nobody seemed to pay much attention to until a month before the draft) would prove a serious hindrance to signing him
4) Multiple teams simply did not think Melville was worth top 10-15 money, and felt they had good reasons to believe so

I’m sure the Royals are happy about the Melville signing and they should be. But there ARE reasons why he went from extremely signable and near the top of the class to very questionable signability with his stock falling. I don’t see a reason to ignore this development – the last time the scouts watched Melville over a prolonged period of time, they just weren’t all that impressed. Maybe that’s not what KC fans want to hear, but the scouts DO have reasons for doing what they do and saying what they say.

by mrkupe on Aug 21, 2008 3:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

4th

I don’t think there is much difference between saying that he fell due to outrageous demands and saying teams didn’t want to pay him what he was demanding.

I agree that there are reasons he went from very signable to having his stock fall, but I don’t understand why you don’t think the fact that he telegraphed excessive demands is reason enough.

His stock was down throughout the spring, sure. That’s why he was no longer considered a top 6 pick. But he had come back on before the draft. Here is BA’s last draft tracker (where he was ranked 12) from before the draft, and I think it also explains why teams were wary of him past the top half of the first round:

link

Melville’s family sent scouts a letter stating he wants to sign but will go to North Carolina if he’s not picked (and of course paid) in the 10-to-15 range. After finishing strong, that’s about where he fits.

by aCone419 on Aug 21, 2008 3:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Braves

the definitely didn’t get the best talent, but considering that their first pick was in the supplemental first, it has to be looked at as an early success. They arguably got three first round talents in DeVall, Spruill, and Thompson, some other high-upside guys in Stovall, Kimbrel, and Hoover, and signed each of their top 15 picks.

by was385 on Aug 16, 2008 2:44 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Robert Brooks, SS, 20 Y.O.

This kid has been outstanding since he was drafted. .362/.461/.554 that’s a 1.015 OPS in 130 AB. He has nice plate discipline and good power. Hopefully he can keep up his performance as he moves up and plays tougher comp.

by Jay212033 on Aug 16, 2008 4:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think the Marlins and Astros

picked a catcher just to pick a catcher. The Marlins in particular picked a guy who had drawn raves. Folks from PG and BA both mentioned that Skipworth’s skills wouldn’t be out of place for a #1 overall guy.

I didn’t like the Castro love early in the year considering his crap track record and I think Stanfurd dudes often get overrated but then I saw him at the CWS and he looked GOOD. Big, real athletic, super arm. Probably still a reach at 10, but if you like a guy, you like a guy.

by nms on Aug 16, 2008 2:45 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

castro

wasn’t he considered the biggest overdraft by any team? sure he was probably the third best catching prospect to come out of this draft but I was under the impression that he wasn’t even supposed to be taken till the supplemental round. with players like smoak still on the board, i think that would qualify the castro pick as a failure.

by zeisenbe on Aug 17, 2008 4:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ha

a failure?

Come on. Just because a team picked a guy fans and observers didn’t hype as much doesn’t mean that it is a “failure” of a pick. That is ridiculous hyperbole.

As I said, I initially was under the assumption Castro was overrated but once I saw him play he looked like a plus defender with offensive potential.
He doesn’t have the bat that Smoak has but he can hit some and the difference between a 1b and a good gloved C is huge. Castro doesn’t have to hit half of what Smoak does, yet he is talented enough to hit 20 homers.

I still think he was an overdraft, but that doesn’t mean the pick was a “failure.”
The pick won’t be a failure unless Castro doesn’t deliver any value to the ’Stros, either as an MLB player or trade bait. And right now, Castro looks – to me – like a potential starting MLB catcher.

And he wouldn’t’ve lasted til the supplemental round at all. Word was very strong that the Mets, and others, were high on him. He might not have even made it out of the top 15-20.

And I’m not just trying to be an Astros apologist either. I’m usually very critical of their approach to the draft.

by nms on Aug 17, 2008 5:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"And he wouldn’t’ve lasted til the supplemental round"

Precisely. I’ve never had a problem with overdrafting a player to ensure getting the specific player you want. Castro is solid all-around, has advanced skills both sides of the ball, and will move quickly; which is precisely what the Astros need. Sure, there were still some superstar caliber players on the board. However, Castro’s intangibles as a catcher should be instrumental in building a pitching staff. A player like this is hard to find, and the Astros recognized this. And trust me, three or four years down the road, Houston is not going to have ANY problem on the free agent market if they need to sign a big corner-infield slugger.

by StickRat on Aug 17, 2008 5:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Give me a break

There were still potential stars on the board, like Smoak, and while I like Castro, no one sees him as a star. You have to take Smoak there.

by aap212 on Aug 18, 2008 2:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, I actually had the 10th overall pick in my shadow draft this year. And I DID take Smoak. So, you are right on the money. However, this is one of those things that falls in the “intangibles” category. You can’t have a legit contender unless you have a good, experienced catcher. The Rangers, who did take Smoak, have had plenty of star power in recent years. Where has that gotten them?

by StickRat on Aug 18, 2008 3:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What?

You can’t have a contender without a good, experienced catcher? Didn’t people used to say that about shortstops before the Walt Weiss A’s?

More to the point, intangibles may be important, but tangibles come first. You build a winning team by adding valuable players to it. If everything breaks right for Castro, he’s a good catcher but not in the elite class of guys like Martin, Mauer, McCann, and Soto. If everything breaks right for Smoak, he’s in the Bagwell-Texeira mold of guys who are elite players despite playing first base. You take the potential MVP when he’s on the board—especially when he’s not asking for crazy money or a notorious bad makeup guy.

To be fair, I don’t think the Astros are the only team that blew it by not taking Smoak.

by aap212 on Aug 18, 2008 4:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Adding valuable players

Depends on what you consider valuable. Walt Weiss is a great example. Drafted 11th overall by Oakland in 1985. Great draft year. Taken ahead of Gregg Jeffries and Rafael Palmeiro … both elite talents who, if you look at the back of their baseball cards, had vastly better careers. Yet, the two combined for 34 big-league seasons and neither so much as appeared in a World Series. The A’s however needed a good, servicable shortstop in the late ’80s. Weiss comes up in ’88, wins the Rookie Of The Year by hitting a marginal .250, and helps Oakland to three consecutive World Series appearances. So, Who was more valuable? Subjective question … but it shows there are no absolutes when it comes to the value of a player.

As for catchers, two things all catchers who played for World Series winners have in common. They are all veterans. They all have excellent game-calling abilities. (The one exception to that rule is if your last name is Molina, who were all relatively young when they won their rings.) Castro projects to be one of those catchers.

by StickRat on Aug 18, 2008 4:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This isn't basketball

You can’t judge a single player for what his teams do. Do you think Ted Williams was less valuable than Phil Rizzuto?

Walt Weiss was a good and important part of those teams, but no one would have noticed him if those teams didn’t have Canseco, McGwire, Dave Henderson, Dave Stewart, etc. The role players are important, but the stars are more important. If Jeffries and Palmeiro had been on better run teams, they would have rings, too. Well, Palmeiro, at least.

Also, game calling is the biggest snake oil in baseball analysis. I don’t doubt that some catchers are better than others, but there’s absolutely no way to prove that any one catcher is a better game-caller than another in most cases. Jason Varitek has been terrible for two years—the Red Sox aren’t winning because they have a catcher with game-calling abilities. They’re winning because they’ve built a great team around him.

And Posada had started what, 50 games before he took over as catcher and immediately was on world series winners?

While we’re at it, how many teams in a given year have starting catchers that aren’t veterans?

by aap212 on Aug 18, 2008 4:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m not touching the Williams vs. Rizzuto question.

Despite the A’s star power, they probably would not have gotten to the World Series without Weiss. His defense was invaluable to that team, hence the reason he won ROY.

Varitek is recognized as a bad game caller for the same reason John Tudor was recognized as an average pitcher when he was in Boston. Fenway Park is all out of whack, and is just going to make most pitchers and catchers look bad; because it nullifies the status quo of how batteries approach the game.

The first ring Posada won was in ’98 when the Yankees swept the Padres. And while it was his first full year of big-league ball, Joe Girardi actually started two of those World Series games.

Last question … looking at the NL West, Russ Martin and Chris Snyder are probably the most accomplished catchers in the division, outside of Bengie Molina who is handling one of the premier pitching staffs in baseball.

by StickRat on Aug 18, 2008 5:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But none of that answers whether you would rather have an above-average but not great catcher or a major star first baseman. The Cardinals couldn’t have won in 2006 without Molina, but Pujols was far and away the most important part of that team.

by aap212 on Aug 18, 2008 5:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Depends on organizational need. This year, if I’m the Cardinals, Todd Wellemeyer and Kyle Lohse are as important as Pujols, because the pitching staff is in disarray. Wellemeyer and Lohse have been more instrumental in the Cards being a contender this year, and I think Yadier Molina has a lot to do with that. Pujols is an absolutely brilliant player, but in today’s market the Astros can go out and sign a power hitter like Carlos Lee. World Series caliber catchers are hard to find. Why do you think Brian Sabean traded the pitchers he did for AJ Piersynski? Because Piersynski is one of those catchers.

Interesting fact by the way, the only year Ted Williams played in the World Series was 1946, which was the one year Hal Wagner caught for Boston. I obviously have no clue what kind of game caller Wagner was, but his career .248 batting average tells me he wasn’t around for 12 season because he was Mike Piazza.

by StickRat on Aug 18, 2008 5:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ugh.

1) Wellemeyer and Lohse are never more valuable than Pujols. You’re taking Pujols for granted because he’s always there. “Because the pitching staff is in disarray” is faulty logic—without Pujols their offense would be in disarray every year. Pujols is perennially one of the handful of most valuable players in baseball. It’s offensive to compare a guy like Lohse to him.

2) If you put Carlos Lee on the Cardinals instead of Pujols, they would be a much worse team every year. Not all power hitters are created equal. Pujols’ career OBP and SLG are roughly 80 and 100 points higher than Lee’s, respectively, and he’s a more valuable defensive player.

3) You missed my point Varitek completely, but your Wagner point is just ridiculous and missing the point once again. Setting aside the strange implication about Ted Williams, your point about Wagner shows that you’ve never heard of the Nichols Law of Catcher Defense. You’re extremely guilty of it right now.

by aap212 on Aug 18, 2008 5:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, the Nichols Law is flawed as a “law”. I mean, it isn’t a constant like gravity. So to call it law kind shows that it’s a de facto slippery slope to bring into a debate such as this. Mike Piazza is a perfect example of a guy who was justly criticized as a defensive catcher. And few would argue that Johnny Bench was one of the best defensive catchers of all time.

As for Pujols, I’m not taking him for granted. He is a truly great player. He’s only hit .233 in World Series games with catchers Mike Matheny and Yadier Molina behind the plate of those Cardinals teams. But I am not comparing Pujols and Lohse as players. I am weighing their contributions to this year’s success. My point is that good pitching wins championships, and good catching is an epically overlooked fascet of good pitching.

So, Castro vs. Smoak … it was a groundwork decision for Houston. Castro is a solid foundation, whereas Smoak is a cornerstone. Gotta put the foundation before the cornerstone.

by StickRat on Aug 18, 2008 7:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Was Max Sapp a groundwork decision?

And no, you don’t have to put the foundation before the cornerstone in baseball. You draft and sign your superstars. The Yankees built a dynasty with good luck in drafting superstars, then using trades and free agency to get their role players.

You don’t spend the 10th pick of the draft on a guy with little chance to be a star.

And your Pujols point still doesn’t make any sense. For one thing, the Cardinals wouldn’t have sniffed the playoffs in the first place without him.

by aap212 on Aug 18, 2008 7:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m not debating proper drafting strategy per se. Like I said originally, I took Smoak in that slot. (It just so happened I was drafting from the same slot as the Astros this year.) I am debating why the Astros took him, and that it was in fact a logical and good choice. You disagree. I understand that. However, different teams employ different strategies, and the Astros drafted a player they can build upon … not around.

Max Sapp … he was drafted out of high school. J.R. Towles out of community college. Castro was drated out of one of the premier Div. I schools in the nation, that has an incredible success rate for highly-touted position players over the past few years. So there is much more stock in the projection for Castro, than Sapp.

by StickRat on Aug 18, 2008 8:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Stanford’s incredible success rate? Quentin and…? You want to hang your hat on Garko? On Lowrie already? Gerut? Borchard? Fuld? Bruntlett?

by aap212 on Aug 18, 2008 8:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Quentin, Lowrie, Garko ...

John Mayberry and Michael Taylor are on their way. Chris Lewis and Cord Phelps are going to be interesting guys out of this year’s class, along with Castro. So yeah, not to shabby.

by StickRat on Aug 18, 2008 8:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That’s not a great list for a top program. One star, one top prospect, and a few maybes, on top of some notable flops. And you can’t put Castro on that list if the list is supposed to justify Castro.

by aap212 on Aug 18, 2008 10:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Alright man … whatever. I’m gonna go fight with me ex girlfriend. In may drift off into fruitless bickering, but at least I’ll get laid.

by StickRat on Aug 18, 2008 10:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You probably don’t know which parts of her to pay attention to, if your philosophies on baseball are any indication.

by aap212 on Aug 18, 2008 11:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually, you and she have a lot in common. What’s the old saying? Chicks did the long ball?

by StickRat on Aug 19, 2008 3:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One other thing

For a much better informed perspective than mine on the question of upside vs. certainty, check this out

www.loftylantern.com

by OldProspects on Aug 19, 2008 12:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i wouldnt use sabean in your argument

that was considered one of the worst trades in giants history. i dont think you should pat ur gm on the back for thinking like him.

by zeisenbe on Aug 19, 2008 5:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Piersynski was a PR disaster for the Giants, but is a great catcher. He did go on to win a World Series the year after he left the Giants. You’re not exactly dealing with Frisco Fanboy here. You might want to consider giving credit for an insight or two before you go condescending to people.

by StickRat on Aug 20, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You wouldn't want to take back Liriano plus for Pyrziensky?

I get that some people are getting snitty, but come on

www.loftylantern.com

by OldProspects on Aug 20, 2008 5:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Brian Sabean knew he was only going to get one year out of Piersynski, he obviously wouldn’t have made that deal. But weigh what Piersynski has done in his career since the trade, and it is a pretty even deal. The Twins got great young players that are now helping the team make a post-season run. Piersynski is a talented veteran catcher that made an invaluable contribution to winning a World Series ring. The Giants got stiffed on the deal because of some very complex clubhouse goings-ons. But that does not diminish Piersynski’s worth as a player.

by StickRat on Aug 20, 2008 5:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Joe Nathan alone has been more valuable than Piersynski since the trade.

by aap212 on Aug 20, 2008 5:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

this is one of the weaker arguments i've seen

that is like saying you would take a role player over lebron james if you are the lakers and already have kobe at sf. the problem is that houston is not 1 catcher away from being in the world series. im sorry but adding ronnie turiaf isnt going to make you a contender.

by zeisenbe on Aug 19, 2008 5:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Castro isn’t a role player. He is a sound defensive catcher with a great feel behind the plate, which is his best skill. But he’s a darn good hitter with power upside too. He isn’t the pure hitter that Smoak is, but has the potential to be a more signifcant all-around player. That isn’t to say Smoak doesn’t play well both sides of the ball. Castro does too though, and plays a position that impacts the game much more.

Look at Ken Stabler. Not the toolsiest player in the history of the NFL. I think most would agree Earl Campbell, who was a thoroughbred and is a Hall Of Famer, was the better player. But which player impacted the game more as someone who could helm a team? Which had the better playoff record? And which is the only one with a Super Bowl ring?

by StickRat on Aug 20, 2008 1:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You’re completely ignoring the coaches and the other fifty two players on the team.

Luis Sojo has more rings than A-Rod, Barry Bonds, and Ken Griffey Jr. combined.

by aap212 on Aug 20, 2008 1:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m not ignoring anyone. You’re taking my examples to rididulous extremes. Luis Sojo? To quote your earlier sentiment: “Ugh.” If you want to talk Mike Scioscia or Darrell Porter, you’ve got yourself a conversation.

by StickRat on Aug 20, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you want to ignore any other holes in your logic, how about this question:

How many of the best catchers are first round picks? Lots of the best players in baseball are first or second round picks, but how many catchers?

by aap212 on Aug 20, 2008 2:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Holes in my logic? I’m talking donuts and you’re making tissue paper metaphors. I think we’re about through here.

Mike Scioscia and Darrell Porter were both first-round picks.

by StickRat on Aug 20, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Even your metaphor for your logic doesn’t make sense. And naming two guys from the 80s doesn’t answer my question.

by aap212 on Aug 20, 2008 3:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, I was going for a Yogi Berra-ism. Didn’t quite get there.

by StickRat on Aug 20, 2008 5:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But what if everything doesn't break right?

I’m not denying that Smoak has a higher ceiling than Castro, but isn’t is possible that the Astros believed that Castro would in actuality be a better player than Smoak? They might be right, they might be wrong – personally I think they’re wrong – but it’s their choice to take that bet.

www.loftylantern.com

by OldProspects on Aug 18, 2008 7:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

exactly

It is worth considering that Smoak has to hit a lot more than Castro to be an equal player. I’m not saying that he can’t, I’d certainly take him over Alonso, but Castro isn’t a slouch with the bat either.
If Castro hits .270 with 20 homers and Smoak turns into a .280 with 30 homer 1b, I’d rather have Castro and it isn’t inconceivable that things could turn out that way

by nms on Aug 18, 2008 7:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, except...

That would be a fair point in most cases, but the Astros have so little credibility that they don’t get the benefit of the doubt.

Also, you have to look at the attrition rates on catching prospects (as John has been at the forefront of pointing out, and which the Astros should be especially aware of). I think 270 with 20 homers, granted in Minute Maid sandbox, is about Castro’s best case scenario. I think Smoak’s upside is higher, and I think he has much less flop potential.

by aap212 on Aug 18, 2008 7:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

.270, 20 HRs from a catcher in any ballpark

is pretty damn good. That’s basically top-5 (offensive) production for his position. Is Smoak’s celing that much higher?

www.loftylantern.com

by OldProspects on Aug 19, 2008 12:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well

Smoak’s upside seems something like Texeira or Bagwell—absolute elite hitter with good D at first. That’s a higher ceiling, and I think he’s more likely to get there than Castro is.

And to be fair, Castro’s ceiling isn’t top five for his position in production unless something really goes wrong with a couple of Martin, Mauer, McCann, Soto, Wieters, and Posey.

by aap212 on Aug 19, 2008 1:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Russell Martin

Two years ago, .282 10 HRs. Last year, .293, 19 HRs. This year, .291 11 HRs. Brian McCann – last year, .270 18 HRs. This year, .302 21 HRs. Soto, .286 18 HRs. Joe Mauer last year, .293 7 HRs. This year, .325 8 HRs. Neither Wieters or Posey have made the majors yet.

I agree with your point – I think Justin Smoak would have been a better pick because I think he has a higher likelihood to be a very good player than does Jason Castro. But we have no certainties here. We’re dealing with outstanding players at the very start of their careers and there is an incredibly small amount that we actually know. If Jason Castro becomes what you think he has the theoretical possibility of becoming – in other words his “ceiling” – then he would be a top-5 offensive catcher. That’s valuable. Justin Smoak also has a high ceiling – he could be a top-5 offensive 1B. To distinguish between them now is simply a matter of guesswork – you can have an opinion, you can have an instinct, you can have a comment, you can have analysis, but ultimately, it’s a guess. You made yours, I made mine, and the Astros made theirs. It wasn’t an indefensible pick, it was just a non-traditional one. I disagreed with it, but I can understand it. The first priority of a draft is to add good players to your team – if they genuinely believed that Castro could be that for them, then go for it

www.loftylantern.com

by OldProspects on Aug 19, 2008 9:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think you have to realize

that not only does smoak have a higher upside but he has a much better chance of reaching it. catchers drafted in the first round have a ridiculously low percentage of even making the majors while power hitting first basemen have a much better percentage. and smoaks upside would b upwards of 40-45 hrs a season.

by zeisenbe on Aug 19, 2008 5:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

note

that I wasn’t saying that was any kind of well though out prediction, nor was I saying that was a likely result. I was just kind of thinking off the top of my head.
That being said I do think Castro COULD hit that much – hes big, real strong, athletic, powerful and hes got some batspeed – I just don’t know how likely it is.

by nms on Aug 19, 2008 2:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

I thought the Giants should have picked Smoak, and the Marlins, and certainly the Astros. That these people seem so certain is bothering me a bit, which is why I’m getting involved. And because being a devil’s advocate is fun

www.loftylantern.com

by OldProspects on Aug 19, 2008 9:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

tell yourself whatever helps you sleep at night, ask anybaseball analyst and he will say the castro pick was probably the worst pick of any team in the first round. i’ve seen him play as well and he is impressive, but he is not top 10 material nor did i have him in my top 20 or 30.

by zeisenbe on Aug 19, 2008 5:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

couple things

Is Castro the worst pick because Smoak was still available and that’s who they were “supposed to take”? Or was it because he went ten or so picks too soon? Or was he the worst pick because he there’s a good chance that he won’t amount to anything?

If we’re going to take the word of analysts, why not go by BA’s Top 200 list for judging where a player should go? According to them, Castro was the 21st-best player in the draft, meaning he was overdrafted by 11 picks. Ike Davis was drafted 12 spots too high (30th best, drafted 18th) David Cooper was drafted 14 spots too high (31st best, drafted 17th), Allan Dykstra was drafted 15 spots (38th best, drafted 23rd) and has a bum hip. You move on to the 19-year old extremely toolsy, extremely raw Anthony Hewitt taken 17 spots early (41st best, drafted 24th). After Hewitt, you get to the real overdrafts: With the 26th pick, the D-Backs drafted the 60th-best player, Daniel Schlereth, only to be topped by the Twins, who took the 82nd-best player, Carlos Gutierrez, with the 27th pick. To show that they could overdraft, also, the Indians took Lonnie Chisenhall, the 74th-best player, with the 29th pick. The Astros were hardly the only team to draft a guy earlier than they were “supposed to.”

Something else to consider, which has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, is that maybe the team knows what they’re doing. The Astros’ new scouting director, Bobby Heck, was previously the Crosschecker that signed off on most of the Brewers’ recent 1st-round picks. So, he’s played a large part in several picks that were “overdrafts” (see Fielder, Prince; LaPorta, Matt; etc) that turned out alright.

Finally, Smoak signed for $1.5M over slot, so it could have been an issue where they wouldn’t have had money to go over slot later in the draft. That means no Ross Seaton, no Brad Dydalewicz, maybe they can’t offer the $150K max to guys after the first few rounds. They ultimately didn’t sign him, but they did offer better than slot to Chase Davidson, also. It would be nice to have a $10M draft, but having just a decent budget (just under $6M for the top 10 rounds), it’s not a bad idea to spread the money around. I don’t think there’s much of an argument over who’s the more-talented hitter, but man, you put all your eggs in one basket (Smoak) and he fails; that’s not good for a struggling farm system.

by astrosfan76 on Aug 20, 2008 4:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think it’s the first two of those things. I certainly won’t say the Astros were the only team to over-draft. The Ike Davis pick is a good example, as you mention. With Hewitt, at least you can understand the Phillies deciding he has the best tools around and knowing he wouldn’t be there for their next pick.

Part of the problem here is also the failure of the Astros from the top down. Heck has a great resume and hopefully will bring real change, but ownership has been extremely tight-fisted about the draft and foreign signings, and the minor league system has suffered immensely. So to see them make a consensus over-draft of a less expensive guy rather than a consensus top prospect who has dropped strikes a worse chord than it would if another team did it.

Oh, and coincidentally, from today’s chat with Kevin Goldstein at BP:

Pete (St. Pete): Is there any legit way to justify taking Castro over Smoak?

Kevin Goldstein: No.

by aap212 on Aug 20, 2008 5:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is still a really black-and-white, dogmatic way

of a looking at a complicated situation.

And it isn’t a good idea to look a complex situation in such a way.

It seems that all your argument is is that because BP/BA/ect rank the players in a certain way it is folly to differ. And that is just stupid.
Now there are plenty of arguments one can make for or against either player based on watching them play or looking at their numbers or whatever, but saying a pick is a bad just because of what others is not only silly, because parrot other as your sole source of info doesn’t make for a good argument, it doesn’t make you look like a great baseball mind either. I can say that (so-n-so financial analyst) said the (stock X) was a great buy.. doesn’t show that I know anything

by nms on Aug 20, 2008 5:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So you take the last thing I said—and the first time I quote someone else—and you use that to denounce any methodology I’ve used? Nice work. By your sort of logic, no one can say anything.

by aap212 on Aug 21, 2008 12:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t see how other teams draft guys more than a full round “too soon” and it means nothing to the same people who railed on the Castro pick. In most years, Castro would have been the top catcher available. That doesn’t mean the top catcher should automatically be a top 10 pick, but it’s not like Castro’s a slouch, either. Taking a guy you like at a hard-to-develop position a few picks “early” shouldn’t be as big of a deal as it’s made out to be. But, I guess since the Astros were the first who went against the “consensus,” they’re on the poopy list.

While not as pronounced as guys like Posey or ultimately, Crow, Smoak did have some signability risk (ie bonus demands). He “settled” at the last minute for $3.5M, meaning he was expecting much more. Could you imagine the conundrum the Astros would face if he wouldn’t budge from $5M? Choosing the guy they knew they could fit in their budget and still sign other good players was the safe move and the smart move. They add depth to the farm system with multiple quality players, got a guy who was still a “consensus” 1st-rounder, and have money left over to get another 1st-round talent 100 picks later.

Who says Smoak dropped, anyways? After Alvarez, Beckham, Matusz, Posey, and Hosmer, the rest of the top 10 was pretty interchangeable. You could say he dropped to the Rangers because he wasn’t expected to make it past the top 10. But, it wasn’t really a shock that he was still there at 10.

If you get past Smoak and that they had to pick him, you see that they passed up a lot of guys who were “expected” to go before Castro who signed for slot. In fact, after the White Sox with the 8th pick, only the Rangers and Red Sox went over slot. If the Astros had chosen Lawrie or Martin at 10 and signed them for slot (instead of Castro), would there be the same uproar? I’m pretty sure there wouldn’t be. So, obviously the Astros saw something they really liked in Castro (who they’d been following for a few years) and were willing to give the same money to him that they could have to just about any other player that round.

I did want Smoak and was upset when they chose Castro over Smoak or even Lawrie or Hicks or Martin. But, in retrospect, there were legitimate reasons to take Castro, even if Kevin Goldstein thinks differently.

by astrosfan76 on Aug 20, 2008 8:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, I am going to do what is expected

and say I think the Indians are winners. I don’t think they became winners until the four overslot signings but I think this draft has yielded them seven prospects (Chisenhall, Haley, Phelps, Putnam, Berger, House and Stowell) who could be classified as 1st-3rd round in ability. I don’t think Tice belongs in that category but he could have serious upside because of his power. Except for Tice, their draft looks short on power. They did get some serious arms in the group and some nice hitting middle infield prospects. I don’t think they got a superstar potential pick but got solid depth for the organization.

The early teams got the potential superstars, no question in my mind. Another late picking team, the Red Sox did real well. I think their 1st round pick, Kelley, could have gone much earlier and wished the Tribe could have picked him instead of Chisenhall. Now I am not so sure.

I think it isdifficult to say the Yankees are losers. Even though they seriously blew it with Cole and should have known his signability problem like everyone else, they have thrown a lot of money at some high risk, high reward types. That is typical of their drafts. Though all they really have to show for it in recent drafts is two outstanding but injury prone pitchers and a 4A, I think time will tell if the philosophy works.

by sdtribefan on Aug 16, 2008 2:46 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Response

Solid looking draft for the Tribe, indeed.

I loved Kelly as a RHP with three plus pitches, athleticism, projection, and a big frame. I like him a bit less as a SS where the bat has questions, but then again it’s where he wants to play. I was totally blown away by that $3M bonus he got, though . . .I could see $2M+ for him as a pitcher, but as a SS?

by mrkupe on Aug 16, 2008 3:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I saw Kelly play twice

and I thought he would be a better pitcher than SS but I don’t kid myself about the kind of scouting ability necessary to make that judgment. I left the 2006 AFLAC game thinking that Michael Main, who touched 97-98 several times was going to be a far better hitter than pitcher. Win some, lose some.

by sdtribefan on Aug 16, 2008 5:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just to let you know

The only reason the Sox are having Kelly playing short right now is because he really wanted to. He’s probably going to switch to pitching next year while still doing some hitting. The Sox drafted him as a pitcher too, and there’s a VERY good chance that’s what he’ll become next year.

by aspeninthewindow on Aug 16, 2008 6:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Didn't know that. While it doesn't make

the Michael Main embarrassment any easier, the fact that the Sox saw the same thing makes me feel a little better.

by sdtribefan on Aug 16, 2008 6:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Texas did let Main DH and play some OF last year as well...

He most likely will never again, but he got the same treatment because he wanted to

by laxtonto on Aug 16, 2008 6:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm just curious

what do you not like about Skipworth?

by nms on Aug 16, 2008 2:47 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah im not sure i had anything against that pick.

by zeisenbe on Aug 17, 2008 4:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pittsburgh Wins!!!!!!!!!

I really like Pitts deal with Alverez. Getting him for a non-MLB contract for 6 million is great value. Hopefully he can fix their thirdbase situation for the next 10 years or so (with Laroche replacing his brother at first due to injury wear).

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on Aug 16, 2008 3:23 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Scheppers

would’ve made it that much more sweet. What were the differences in money?

by achengy on Aug 16, 2008 3:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you know...

It probably wasn’t awful that they didn’t get him signed. He wanted top 15 money I think, and it sounded like his injury prognosis wasn’t very good. Thought I read his bullpen session right before the deadline wasn’t very good either.

Plus they get a compensation pick next year…

Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.

by doublestix on Aug 16, 2008 4:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah,,,

Scheppers needs a rehab organization like the Angels or the Braves. The Pirates have a pretty bad track record when it comes to pitchers recovering from arm injuries. Best thing for both parties that he didn’t sign. Could have very well been a strategy to defer a draft choice to next year, being as the Pirates new they would have to spend so much to sign Alvarez.

by StickRat on Aug 17, 2008 5:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

GIANTS GIANTS GIANTS

are the winners got 4 players who at 1 point or another were seen as first rounders in Posey Gillapsie Kiesch and Crawford would have been nice to add O Sullivan but, this adds great depth to our system and blends nicely with our high ceiling players becuase as you all know we got as much of that as anyone…….not like I’m biased?

by caincecum on Aug 16, 2008 4:27 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’d add in there 7th rounder Aaron King and 13th rounder Juan Carlos Perez as real nice sleepers with some decent upside.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 16, 2008 7:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

King had a really nice start this season. So did 15th rounder C.J. Ziegler. And signing a pitcher like Jason Jarvis is an outstanding get in any round, let alone the 23rd. Especially considering this was a position-player intensive draft.

by StickRat on Aug 17, 2008 5:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

was it keith law who said

crawford reminds him of john mcdonald?

gotta show love for my boy though, go pleasanton national little league

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Aug 17, 2008 6:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Throw in Rafael Rodriguez and it's a big year

When you add in the 16 yerar old Rodriguez, the Giants took another big step forward.

They’ve now added Bumgarner, Aldredge, Villalona, Posey, Gillaspie and Rodriguez to their system in the last two years. These are all Top 100 guys.

Their system has gone from one of the worst to one of the best in a very short time.

Flaxseed oil dependent

by 3Com Park on Aug 20, 2008 12:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not quite yet

Neither Gillaspie or Rodriguez are top 100 guys at this point. Maybe next year.

by aCone419 on Aug 20, 2008 1:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

this isn't exactly a homer stance

mostly because i’m one move away from disowning the club, but *the phillies had their best signing of the decade. easily. *

they drafted and signed 10 HS players, plus they signed 6 from junior college (or dropout, or from a foreign national program). in that pack, they got 3 HS arms with mid 90s FBs (gose, knapp, and cosart, gose is currently playing CF, but if he bombs out and commits to pitching, he’s got a great FB from a big, LH frame), they got THE top junior college arm in colby shreve. they got two phenomenal hitters in zack collier and steven susdorf, though it’s not certain that either will hit for a lot of power. AND, as if none of that’s enough, 4 of their college draftees are already playing for the low A affiliate (michael stutes, vance worley, michael cisco, and eryk mcconnell.

just about any phillies fan that follows the draft will say that they didn’t want hewitt, but i can guarantee that beyond that, they’ll still agree with my assertion that this draft will yield more than any since before i was born in 1987.

i expect 7 players from this draft to immediately be in BA’s top 30 (collier, gose, knapp, worley, pettibone, shreve, and cosart), and i think there are quite a few more who have the potential to get there down the line (hewitt, may, susdorf, cloyd, schwimmer, stutes, hamilton, overbeck, cisco, etc.).

by variablesdont on Aug 16, 2008 4:54 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hewitt is going to be in the BA top 30

There is a backlash against guys perceived overdrafted or all-tools, and hence people like to underrate them. There is no way Hewitt is a worse prospect than freakin’ Vance Worley

by nms on Aug 16, 2008 6:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

worley is young for a college junior

hewitt is old for a HS senior. there’s only about 18 months between them.

considering the difference in polish, and projectable talent, i have no problem declaring worley to be a better prospect.

and hewitt wasn’t overdrafted, per se – he’s just a guy in an organization with a lot of marks against him. on the field, he doesn’t have a good swing, he doesn’t have good recognition skills, he strikes out too much, he walks too little, and he’s shown no actual power, not professionally, not in high school. add to that the age thing, and the fact that he doesn’t even compare favorably to greg golson, and it’s easy to overlook the fact that he could turn into ryan braun.

i understand all of that, but i can’t say now that drafting hewitt was a bad choice, i just know that they passed on the guy i liked best out of just about anyone in the draft, not once, not twice, but 3 times.

one last thing, while hewitt is old for a high school draftee, if he can hit his way out of a paper bag, he’ll be in AA by the time he’s 23. there’s plenty of time to put him on prospect lists later on. he just hasn’t done anything yet to earn it.

by variablesdont on Aug 16, 2008 8:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

im not really concerned about

the age difference. Worley just looks like another ordinary west coast pitcher to me. Now, that is fine and he very well could become a useful MLBer but I’d much rather have a 5-tool’d first round pick (Hewitt) over him right now. There isn’t any way I can’t see Hewitt not being a top 20-30 guy in the Phils system. I think that is going a little overboard as far as pointing out his flaws goes

by nms on Aug 17, 2008 5:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Quick Question

I know this isn’t really on topic, but I haven’t heard much about the Tigers draft and how they fared. I like the fact they grabbed 4 power arms early on, but I think there’s a big stigma because they’re relievers (for the record, I think we’re stretching Ryan Perry out into a starter).

Anyone else hear anything about the Tigers draft?

by demondeaconsbaseball on Aug 16, 2008 6:35 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I Like The Brewers' Draft

I didn’t dig deep into their draft, but the day of the draft I was impressed they nabbed three guys from BA’s top 100 that I really liked, Brett Lawrie, Jake Odorizzi, and Seth Lintz.

The Rangers stuck out too with Smoak, Robbie Ross, and Joe Wieland.

"I hate the people that love me, and they hate me!"

by Brett Keith on Aug 16, 2008 7:57 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i liked the A's draft

okay i’m being a homer and it probably couldve been better if they signed a couple tough signee HS picks like Warren/Elgie/Maronde plus a couple polished college pitchers Rusin/Guilmet, but that didnt happen

for the first time ever, this cheap team went over slot…yes f u selig and your slot BS!!
went over slot: dixon/coleman/hunter

they were able to sign 9 of 11 BA top 200 ranked players

what they did do is get several college infielders in weeks/christian/coleman

college pitchers Ross/Hunter (their health is scary, but could pay off huge)/Capra/Daniel Thomas Univ of South FLorida (throwing 98mph in Northwest league) /Fitts

one of the better college catchers in paramore

Dixon/Barfield/Leyja have been very nice surprises at their levels.

overall, lots of pitching and speed, athletic types

i think they would’ve spent more and signed more than 27 of the 50 players…but their BS line was saying they spent a huge chunk of their budget on Inoa and other Intl signings

by Asfan4ever723 on Aug 16, 2008 8:57 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A's and Rangers

Things are going to be pretty interesting in a couple of years. Both teams have a stockpile of prospects and both teams have major league squads with opposite weaknesses. I expect the Angels to fade a bit by 2010 and both the A’s and Rangers to surge as guys like Anderson and Feliz reach the big time.

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 16, 2008 9:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think the A's spent about as much as they did on INT FA's as they did on the draft, for less players

Inoa, Leon, and a few other guys totaling up to bout the same as the draft price tag at about $6 million.

facepalm.jpg

by Zonis on Aug 17, 2008 1:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

(Semi-)Quick Defense of My Skipworth/Castro Opinions

Okay, what I’m about to say isn’t entirely fair because I don’t remember where I read it, but I read somewhere that the Marlins really wanted a catcher, and were hoping Posey would fall to them. When that didn’t happen, Skipworth was their backup plan because they wanted a catcher.

Likewise, and much worse, the Astros were looking for a catcher at #10, and when neither Posey nor Skipworth fell to them, they had Castro as the #3 catcher on their board, so they took him.

NOW. I have NO direct evidence for this except something I remember reading, so feel free to ignore all that.

Even if you do, though, the general consensus (aside from the Marlins and Astros and their fans) is that Skipworth and especially Castro were overdrafts. There aren’t too many rankings of the top picks from the draft that include those two in the top ten, let alone #6 for Skipworth.

Rather than Skipworth, wouldn’t you rather have Yonder Alonso, Gordon Beckham, Aaron Crow (assuming you’d pay the extra $750K and get him signed) or Justin Smoak? I mean, maybe you can argue that you like Skipworth more than one or even two of those, but all four? There isn’t one guy there you’d take over Skipworth?

And Castro… I mean, even if you for some reason you wouldn’t take Smoak, I’d probably take the five guys after him over Castro. And you could make an argument for several of the other guys after him.

As to the argument that Castro’s a safe pick, and that’s what the Astros needed… When you have one of the two or three weakest farm systems in the game, you need upside, not safeness. You want to get some stars in there, not more guys with low ceilings. Do you want Castro, who maaaybe has a slightly better chance to be a league average catcher, or someone like Smoak or Wallace, who could turn into absolute monsters at 1B, and aren’t exactly risky propositions?

Okay, I’m done now. While I argue aggressively (as always), I acknowlege that these are just my opinions, and I look forward to hearing yours.

(Even if they’re wrong.)

(And everyone else knows it.)

(Yes, I’m kind of a jerk.)

by abbreviatedman on Aug 17, 2008 9:56 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd love to see

some evidence of the “general consensus” that Skipworth was an overdraft. Everything I remember reading about him said he was a super all-around catcher and that his talent was good enough to warrant him being taken at any pick.

“Rather than Skipworth, wouldn’t you rather have Yonder Alonso, Gordon Beckham, Aaron Crow (assuming you’d pay the extra $750K and get him signed) or Justin Smoak? I mean, maybe you can argue that you like Skipworth more than one or even two of those, but all four? There isn’t one guy there you’d take over Skipworth?”

From a fan’s perspective that is almost an apple and oranges question as I’ve seen all those college guys play but there is only word of mouth (and maybe a wee lil bit of video) about Skipworth.
That doesn’t mean the pick is bad at all.

It seems the crux of your argument is based around perceptions and consensus rather than anything specific about the players. While it is true that “reach” pick often don’t pan out, that doesn’t mean that the mere fact that they were “reaches” (according to fans or analysts) is why the don’t pan out. There are concrete reasons why the don’t pan out… like getting hurt, not being able to play defense at the position they were drafted for, not developing power, not making contact, ect.

I haven’t heard any concrete reason from you about why Skipworth won’t be as good as (college slugger du jour) other than the fact the college sluggers had higher fan profile.

by nms on Aug 17, 2008 5:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think the real question is did the Marlins need any of those guys?

They’re stock piled with all the recent graduations pretty much everywhere on the diamond except C. Skipworth sounds like he’s going to develop into a stud if his bat continues to develop… From my understanding, his defense is very solid if not very good, and he’s still learning how to call a game. I think the Marlins got the player they wanted and saved money rather than going after some of the guys that were mentioned…

"When Justin Upton faces Lincecum, I think Christ might appear in the heavens, and the world will end." -JakeFree

by JT12340 on Aug 17, 2008 7:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I need some time to write a good reply to nms and it's late at night here.

So in the meantime you get a quick response instead. Lucky you!

In baseball, unlike in other sports, you NEVER draft for need in the first round. That’s because even a stud college player usually takes 2-3 years to reach the majors, and a high school player like Skipworth can take a year or two more than that. In that time, who knows what happens to the guys on the major league club? Or the draftee himself, for that matter. in the 2-5 years most prospects take to reach the bigs, major league players can be traded, leave to FA, shift positions… And prospects even moreso.

If the Marlins had taken a 1B star with their pick, the chances of him being really blocked in 2-5 years aren’t that great. And even if he were blocked, you can always trade one of them. And if you end up with the better (which is the whole point of drafting), you’ve got more trade value, regardless of position.

And, of course, they always could have taken one of the pitchers in the draft. How often is a very good pitching prospect actually blocked from the major league level? Not that often.

Now I’ve gotta find time to properly reply to nms…

by abbreviatedman on Aug 18, 2008 12:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i do agree with the fact that

Need shouldn’t matter except MAYBE in a case where you have a franchise player who you project to be at his spot for the next decade and they guy you pick couldn’t play effectively at another spot.

It is true that the Marlins have an organizational black hole at catcher but it isn’t like their first base job is taken by a Pujols or Howard. Mike Jacobs is easily replaceable and while bats like Gaby Sanchez and Logan Morrison are interesting they are by no means phenoms.

I still think Skipworth was an absolutely fine pick, but not because the Marlins couldn’t have found use for a good 1b bat (or pitcher or Beckham at 2b or 3b). The fact that Skipworth fills a vacuum is a plus, not a reason to take him. His very strong scouting reports, on the other hand, do seem to be a strong reason to select him

by nms on Aug 18, 2008 1:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm

The last huge overdraft the Marlins made was when they went cheap and drafted Adrian Gonzalez #1 overall. OMG, what a nightmare! I’m sure if you weren’t in diapers back then, you would have been all over the Net screaming about how bad that pick was.

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

by WayneCampbell08 on Aug 18, 2008 5:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Response

You said:

“When you have one of the two or three weakest farm systems in the game, you need upside, not safeness.”

I wholly disagree. When you have very little on the farm in the way of A) guys who are going to produce for your major league team or B) guys you can trade for guys who are going to produce for your team, being able to add a young player with a relatively (important word here) high chance of contributing to your major league team in a meaningful way is a very, very good thing. Passing that up for somebody who’s just as likely (and hell, probably much more likely) to do absolutely nothing for you as become a quality contributor probably means that your system is going to remain right where it was.

I’m not a huge Jason Castro fan . . .and I’m a huge Justin Smoak fan, have been for years. And even I’m just totally amazed at how much people are buying into the hype. Smoak and Wallace are big-stick guys at a big-stick position, so they’re going to post the sexy numbers that make people pay attention (and if they didn’t, they wouldn’t have been drafted so highly). Does Smoak have the raw talent to be, say, a top 5 1B in the major leagues? Sure, but it’s not like it’s a given or anything. Wallace is a fine hitter and should wreck the lower levels of pro competition but that doesn’t mean he’s necessarily a plus major leaguer.

If you want to say that, say, Wallace has a good chance of hitting like .280/.360/.440, then yeah, he could do that. Technically he’d be producing, but at 1B that’s hardly anything special. If Jason Castro is more likely than Brett Wallace to produce league-average numbers for his position, then there is a strong argument that Wallace, despite being more likely to produce offensively at all, is actually a significantly riskier pick than Castro.

You seem to have this idea that a team should take the consensus #2 1B over the #3 C because 2-is-better-than-3. And first of all, these rankings are hardly stabilized. If 1 year from now, you were to put the names of every 1B drafted in the 2008 first round into a hat and pick them out randomly to determine an increasing order of offensive productivity in the minors up until that point, you probably wouldn’t be doing too badly for yourself. Maybe, just, maybe the Astros really liked Jason Castro and thought that he’d be a good player, and maybe they really liked Justin Smoak too but decided that A) Berkman is going to be around for a while and B) the market for finding a viable 1B is a lot easier to work with than finding a solid catcher.

Finally . . .I think you’re grossly exaggerating the concept of the overdraft. Castro wasn’t a guy who was a third-fourth round talent. He was a first round player, and if he was overdrafted it was by a whopping 10-15 spots. In other words, it means absolutely nothing, and in fact it’s probably a pretty good bet that Castro has a better chance to be better than a lot of those guys drafted behind him in the first round in their “appropriate spots” and even the guys who were “value picks”. This time last year lots of people wanted to talk trash about the Twins going for Ben Revere, a guy regarded by many as a round 3-5 talent. Now Revere’s hitting like .380 in the Midwest League and all of a sudden everybody’s VERY quiet. Teams tend to trust their scouts, that’s what they pay them for, even when said scouts disagree with the consensus opinion. We could just assign players to teams in strict order according to the BA Top 200 or whatever, but considering how much that list would change even 12 months from now we’d readily acknowledge it was a crapshoot. A guy might go from unranked to top 50 or higher, a guy might drop from top 10 to top 60. And you’re saying the Astros are dumb because they took a guy who probably would’ve gone 15-22 at No. 10? 12 months from now he might be in the process of pounding the low minors and all of a sudden, he’s a potential franchise player and one of the top 3-5 names on that list. Who can say?

by mrkupe on Aug 19, 2008 11:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Astros draft is a damned if you do, Damned if you dont area

Im not upset that they drafted Castro, as much as I question whether another pick would have had as much or more value.

Castro was considered a 20-30 guy by most accounts, with some services a little higher, some lower. I think then that looking at the picks between 10-20 would give a good estimation of what else they could have acquired instead of Castro

11. Smoak
12. Weeks
13. Wallace
14. Hicks
15. Martin
16. Lawrie
17. Cooper
18. Davis
19. Cashner
20. Feilds

OK so that’s 2 relievers, 3 1st basemen, what ever position Wallace will be and a 2nd baseman from college, and 3HS players.

Lets get away from the HS players for now and look at the college players. Are any of the college players more likely to reach what would be considered league average for their position than Castro? Feilds and Cashner both could reach league average with ease, but they are relievers. Smoak has a good argument but that been covered elsewhere. Besides Smaok who else would you pick?

As far as the HS kids, i understand why Houston would stay away. Their system is thin, and as a 1st round pick most teams would like to build as fast as possible in their situation. Since there is no “once in a generation” HS player available at this point i wouldn’t see any other HS options for them at 10.

The Astros took who they thought would most likely make it as a league average player, not who had the most upside. Its a very safe approach but can lead to missing out on some premier players.

by laxtonto on Aug 19, 2008 12:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's the difference between a league-average catcher and an elite catcher?

6-8 homers, 30 points in batting average? How comfortable are we really in making such precise predictions about what these prospects will become?

www.loftylantern.com

by OldProspects on Aug 19, 2008 2:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thats the entire point.

If the Astros get a better than average return instead of just a league average return they will be ecstatic. In the Astros eyes they picked the guy that will have the highest likely hood of making the show as league average or above, not the guy with the highest ceiling.

You cant fault them for that. That’s the entire reason listed the other options after their pick. Its not like they took Castro over Price or Griffey, the Astros stuck to what they considered to be the safest pick at their spot in the draft.

Now personally don’t agree with the concept of safe pick vs. upside, but it has worked well Beane and hopefully it works well for Wade as well.

by laxtonto on Aug 19, 2008 2:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

exactly

if there is so little difference, why waste such a high pick on this kind of player.

in addition catchers usually take the longest to develop in the minors, reaching at an average age of 27, meanwhile smoak was considered one of the most major league ready players in the entire draft. For a win now team like houston, wouldn’t it make sense to take the person ready to actually help now (or relatively soon)?

by zeisenbe on Aug 19, 2008 5:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Because an average starter isn't as not valuable as you think

It’s difficult to get an average starting catcher – half of the teams in the majors can’t.

Again, I’m not arguing that they should have taken Castro. I think they should have taken Smoak. But it isn’t like this incomprehensible, disastrous selection that some people seem to think it is.

www.loftylantern.com

by OldProspects on Aug 19, 2008 6:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

homer pick

but im pretty happy with the Reds draft. Alonso may have gotten too much money, but he looks like he could easily make us forget all of that in a few short years. Stewart and Bucholz are doing well in their pro debuts and the Sulbaran signing is awesome. couple all of this with getting Yorman Rodriguez and Juan Duran and the Reds got a boatload of amateur talent this summer. maybe the talent level received isnt as great as other teams, but im really just tickled to see the Reds finally loosing the purse strings for guys other than washed-up vets (Mike Stanton) and no-talent has-beens (Corey Patterson).

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 18, 2008 4:22 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Crow

Bad luck for him that the Nats wouldn’t go over slot. He deserved an over slot contract, given that he was projected as a top-5 talent.

Looks like a much better draft for high-ceiling arms next year. It seems less likely he will be a top-10 pick next year.

Go Rangers!

by rooster on Aug 19, 2008 2:50 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don’t they get a comp pick in next year’s draft, though?

by onholliday on Aug 21, 2008 10:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yea they do

they’ll have the #1 pick because they’re horrible and they get the #9 pick back. So basically every team just drops down one slot after #9. So if a team gets the 9th pick in the 2009 draft, they’ll actually be getting the #10 pick due to the Nationals inability to sign a stud like Crow.

2010 can't come soon enough

by deportesfan on Aug 25, 2008 12:07 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wrong

Nats get pick #9A,,, meaning the first pick after pick #9

by nms on Aug 25, 2008 3:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thaks for correcting my mistake

Still the Nationals should be in good shape for the draft next year, that is if they stop being cheap.

2010 can't come soon enough

by deportesfan on Aug 26, 2008 7:46 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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Independence Day weekend MiLB thread

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