Looks like Liriano could almost be back!

by hotshotschamp on Jul 5, 2008 8:57 PM EDT

his last 2 starts he has shown signs of dominance.

Last start he went 7 innings, 3 hits, 9 k's with a walk, 0 runs

Today he went 6 innings, 3 hits, 7k's, 0 runs

This would be big for the Twins down the stretch if his arm is indeed ready. They could trade that slug Livan Hernandez who is on pace to give up like 280 hits this year. Yeah I know his record looks okay, he's just lucky he's got some pretty good run support.

Baker, slowey, blackburn, liriano, perkins could be pretty good. Lets hope Liriano has no setbacks this time!!!!

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atleast

post A-S break as to not trigger the arb clock. Small market teams, whatcha gonna do. Can’t all be the Rays!

The Giants need to sign Harry Doyle.

by jrose643 on Jul 5, 2008 9:29 PM EDT 0 recs

Please explain

What does the arb clock have to do with the timing of Liriano at this point? It didn’t matter before – people kept saying he was still a year away, then as time went on they said after June 30… in fact I hear this a lot when talking about the Twins prospects and other so called “small market teams” and generally speaking, it doesn’t hold up. When the guys are ready, they get moved up and that’s the end of it. I don’t buy into this penny-pinching people accuse these teams of – by and large, historically (especially recent history) – it’s a bunch of hoey. These boards are littered with names of prospects people claimed woulnd’t be up before such-and-such a time due the arb clock who were dead wrong. The Twins are very much alive and have a new stadium on the horizon. They want to win in 2008, not worry about saving, what is in the grand scheme of things, a paltry amount of cash, especially if Liriano can help them right now, which he can.

by slurve on Jul 6, 2008 11:11 PM EDT up 0 recs

not important?

If they delayed and injury plagued Liriano for another month, they get to keep him another year because he’d have a lesser amount of service time, thus delaying his arbitration clock.

It absolutely has an impact. You think it’s coincidence that Gallardo, Braun, Pence, Bruce et al always get called up the May/June timeframe? It saves a year.

The Twins delaying the return of Liriano will give them another year of Liriano when he’s (hopefully) healthy and in his prime, rather than when he’s recovering from surgery. it’s a no-brainer.

by Galt on Jul 7, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up 0 recs

Importance

I didn’t say it doesn’t factor in at all, but for every Braun, Gallardo, Pence, there is a Kershaw, Felix, Longoria, Justin Upton, etc. If Liriano is ready, they will take the help, not the extra service time. I’m not sure how it makes a difference anyway – Liriano’s clock already started ticking and he was on the club already this year. I know it would save SOME time, but I don’t think it’s an entire year in his case by waiting a few more weeks. It’s stepping over a dollar to save a dime – especially if he can help them pass the Sox.

by slurve on Jul 7, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up 0 recs

Kershaw?

Kershaw was called up in mid-season. So was Felix Hernandez. Longoria was very obviously sent down for two weeks so that he would not become a free agent until after 2014. Justin Upton was called up midseason.

There are guys who played just six full seasons—Bonderman will be one, Carlos Silva was one—but by and large that only happens when a team is truly desperate.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Jul 7, 2008 10:53 PM EDT up 0 recs

The point was

The point was that they were called up before people said they would be, citing the arb clock. Kershaw was not mid-season – it was less than 2 months. People were saying it wouldn’t be until after the All-Star break or even September because of the arb clock. Longoria being down for 2 weeks to start the season does not give the Rays another year of service time – they would have had to waited until after June I believe. Not only that, they threw the whole concept of using the servce clock to their advantage for cheap labor right out the window when they signed him to a contract extension this spring for 17 million.

Half of the players in the 2005 draft class have already made their debuts – Ryan Zimmerman made his that same year AND they too have already completely negated the service clock by signing him to an extension. Same with Tulo and a few others. Then you have the trend of some draftees getting MLB contracts when they sign…. The service clock factors in to varying degrees, but it’s nowhere near as important as many think it is these days.

by slurve on Jul 8, 2008 7:58 AM EDT up 0 recs

Zimmerman

When did he sign an extension? Last I read he and the Nats were still quite a was apart on what he should get. I do agree with most everything else you said though.

"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile

by Boxkutter on Jul 8, 2008 8:49 AM EDT up 0 recs

Livan's Not Going Anywhere

I know Livan doesn’t have the best numbers, but unless the Twins go on a huge losing streak and fall out of the playoff race, there’s no way Livan gets traded. The Twins are thrilled…and they’ve made that very clear… with the veteran leadership he provides with a young pitch staff. He has shown the young guys how to battle through a tough inning and get back on the mound, even if you’re down 5-0 after the first, and just keep throwing strikes and trying to give the team a chance to battle back into it. The Twins had a nasty losing streak before the current hot streak, largely because of the starting pitching. Livan challeneged the young guys and helped turn things around.

I know they need to get Liriano up eventually (and yes, he looks like he’s ready) but they won’t dump the only veteran guy in the rotation to do it. My guess is they wait for someone to get hurt, or send Blackburn down eventually.

And I say this as a Twins fan, and a Liriano owner (Got Liriano and Andrus for Oswalt last season in my keeper league).

by purppride1 on Jul 5, 2008 9:37 PM EDT 0 recs

PUKE

oh my gosh dude, do you work for the Twins PR department or what? Any rational person would can Hernandez the second they could. Livan has been absolutely terrible, and there’s no way to spin that. For crap’s sake, he’s on pace to allow over 300 hits and nearly 350 baserunners in a little over 200 innings this year. I couldn’t really care less what his record is or what kind of intangible leadership and experience garbage you want to claim he provides, no amount of intangibles are worth a 1.59 whip, 5.18 ERA, and a line against of .336/.360/.504. As for the “Livan challenged the young guys and helped turn things around” remark, huh? If by “challenged the young guys” you mean get pounded so bad every other start that the Twins had to score 8 runs to even have a chance at winning, then yeah, I guess he has done great. Send Blackburn down? Are you insane? He’s not an ace by any means, but he has given the Twins a lot of innings (quality innings too, unlike Hernandez, who gets bombed every other start, which gives the team an autoloss regardless of how many innings he pitches). He has a 1.31 whip and way better stats across the board, allowing an OPS about 100 points lower than Livan. He is 26 and is getting paid the league minimum, while Livan is god knows how old and making an inexplicable $5,000,000. Without Livan, the Twins’ team ERA drops around 0.17 points, to 4.04. There’s no way I can see Livan doing enough off the field to make up for how horrendous he has been on the field, and I don’t see how getting blown out every other start can possibly be good for the team unless Rick Anderson shows Livan’s horrible starts to the rest of the guys and says, “Don’t pitch like this kids!”

by AucklandGM on Jul 6, 2008 12:44 AM EDT up 0 recs

i agreel

livan could possibly be the first pitcher in 30 years to give up 300 hits, he’s had marginal success at the dome, but away from it he’s been awful.

Livan has a 84mph fastball…..im sorry it just isn’t working. You don’t move or send down a blackburn for this guy, he’s the weakest link in the rotation right now by a fair margin.

by hotshotschamp on Jul 6, 2008 1:42 AM EDT up 0 recs

Yeah yeah

I totally get your points, they’re valid, but Livan is still an important piece of the rotation and won’t go anywhere. This young rotation needs a veteran presence. It’s just like when Radke was here. Same thing. Throws strikes, gives up a lot of base runners, doesn’t blow anyone away, and yet he’s the heart of the rotation. People were moaning about him, but then when he retired people missed him. Livan’s a smart pitcher. He’s gotten by all these years (and won a ring) without ever having GREAT stuff. He is passing that along to the young guys. I’m not saying we should bring him back next year, but if we have a legit chance at the playoffs, we need his veteran experience.

Again…horrible fantasy pitcher. But in terms of real life results, he’s an important part of the Twins and a big reason for their success (but you’ll never be able to prove that with stats).

by purppride1 on Jul 6, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up 0 recs

can't prove without stats

I get it that there are qualities beyond stats; however, who says that Livan is a great teacher to young players? Being old and well traveled does not make someone a great veteran presence. The one thing I would contend is the comment about the ring. Not that Livan wasn’t an important piece, but that is a team accomplishment and should not be credited to one individual.

I agree that Livan is not going anywhere, but I believe the issue is economic. The Twins can’t trade him and won’t release him as he is making $5 Mil this season.

by count sutton on Jul 6, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up 0 recs

Can't Trade?

I guarantee you the Twins could trade him if they really wanted to. I’m not saying he’d bring any great prospects, but for crying out loud….Carlos Silva got a huge deal in the offseason. Teams are DESPARATE for pitching. I have no doubt they could move Livan if they wanted to, but they’re going to hang onto him for the year.

Another thing to remember is, he started the year well, then had a rough stretch mid-May thru early June (referenced below by jrose). But he’s been pretty decent again his past 4 starts:
Last 7 Games

Date Opp W L SV IP HA ER BBA SO
06/02 NYY 0 0 0 6.0 13 5 1 1
06/07 CHW 0 1 0 4.0 8 7 1 2
06/12 CLE 0 1 0 3.0 12 7 0 1
06/17 WAS 1 0 0 7.0 5 1 0 1
06/22 ARI 1 0 0 7.0 9 1 1 5
06/28 MIL 0 1 0 7.0 7 4 4 5
07/04 CLE 1 0 0 6.0 5 3 3 4

I know…doesn’t paste well, but since getting shelled by Cleveland 6/12 (when the entire staff was struggling, not just him) he’s been much better.

Last 4 starts: 4-0 27IP 26 hits 9 ER 8 BB 15 K’s.

And everything I’ve read from the Twins beatwriters has said Livan was one of the leaders in the meeting the pitchers had which helped turn things around and get them on their current hot streak.

Don’t get me wrong. He had some HORRIBLE starts. But he’s had more good starts than bad and when you throw in the leadership and such, I think he’s been exactly what the Twins wanted him to be…an innings eater who provides some leadership and gives them a chance to win some games, even if he doesn’t win them himself.

by purppride1 on Jul 6, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up 0 recs

horrible fantasy pitcher?

Try horrible real life pitcher too. Good lord, if you can see that at this point it’s not even worth arguing with you.

by AucklandGM on Jul 6, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up 0 recs

Sounds more like a coaches job

If you need someone to give a experience and advice to young pitchers, usually that person would be hired as a coach. The way he is pitching makes the situation much worse also. Finally, even if you add on the salary of a coach with what he is contributing right now as a player, he is still grossly overpayed.

by tdot mariner fan on Jul 6, 2008 6:30 PM EDT up 0 recs

Question

I brought this up elsewhere, but what do you think of trading Nick Blackburn? He looks like a solid #4 guy going forward, but he might be a bit overvalued right now. He is certainly young and controllable, at least.

I could see a trade of J.J. Hardy for Blackburn being mutually beneficial.

by limozeen on Jul 5, 2008 10:45 PM EDT 0 recs

I wouldn't

trade Blackburn at all. To me the weakest part of the team is the bullpen. If we could get one more solid RP and replace him with BOOF, that would be great. Then release Livan and call up Liriano. Even though the Twins don’t hit HR’s they are still 3rd in the AL in runs. They have a good nucleus going and Harris has been pretty solid at SS so far. Blackburn has been the Twins most consistent starter the whole year and for a rookie he is extremely poised out on the mound.

Right know Livan is just keeping his spot in the rotation warm for Liriano. Livan is one of the worst statistical pitchers in the league. He is just lucky he gets all the run support that he does.

Also, would you see the Brewers trading J.J.? Do they have a real replacement for him?

by ahope on Jul 6, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up 0 recs

Alcides Escobar or Bill Hall...

Granted he doesn’t have Hardy’s bat, but should be a capable replacement defensively while providing mediocre stats at the plate, or they could move Hall back over to SS, call up Gamel and give him a shot with Branyan still there to platoon or give the kid a day off. I think they have options and trading Blackburn isn’t the end all for the Twins. I actually think that could be a great trade for the Twins as Punto or Harris aren’t the answer at short (though they are fun to root for). It definitely gives their lineup more pop which is one thing they are definitely lacking right now…

"When Justin Upton faces Lincecum, I think Christ might appear in the heavens, and the world will end." -JakeFree

by JT12340 on Jul 7, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up 0 recs