Manny to the Dodgers, Bay to Boston?

by sdbaseballfan on Jul 31, 2008 4:51 PM EDT

From MLB Trade Rumors:

3:39pm: Bob Nightengale has the Bucs getting Craig Hansen and Brandon Moss from the Red Sox and Andy LaRoche and Bryan Morris from the Dodgers, correcting what looks like a typo in the Rosenthal report.

3:37pm: Rosenthal has details:

Pirates outfielder Jason Bay is headed to the Red Sox. The Pirates will receive Andy LaRoche and right-hander Bryan Morris from the Dodgers and outfielder Damien Moss and releiver Craig Hansen from the Red Sox.

He adds that the Red Sox will pay the $7MM remaining on Manny's contract.

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Nice haul for Huntington

Waaaay too early, but if true, I like the deal from the Bucs perspective. LaRoche is a true talent who needs a change of scenery, Morris is an injury risk but has potential, and Moss and Hansen are adequate major leaguers with a little upside.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jul 31, 2008 4:58 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Wow

Quite the deal. My instinct is to say that Boston wins this deal, as Bay isn’t too far off of the current Manny in terms of production, and he comes at very little cost (they had to get rid of Manny).

I will break with the conventional wisdom, and say that I think the Dodgers did well in this trade. Whether right or not, the Dodgers had clearly botched LaRoche badly and they needed to cut ties. Morris has already blown his arm out, and Manny/Blake should put the Dodgers over the top. Colletti did this deal to save his job, and I think he did.

The Pirates did well, but I’m not thinking they did AS well as they could have in the proposed FLA deal. Hermida is better than any player they acquired in this trade.

by GuyinNY on Jul 31, 2008 5:04 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

True

Getting Hermida would obviously have been awesome for Pittsburgh, but it isn’t like they nixed that deal. If you can believe the reports, the Fish are the ones that finally came to their senses and killed it. I think the deal that Huntington got is better than the rumored Brignac/Niemann package from TB.

As for LA, it all depends on what they do with their five OFs. If this takes ABs from Kemp and Ethier for Pierre and Jones, I don’t think it’s a big step up.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jul 31, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Indeed

Getting back to Hermida, what I really meant to say was that if they had a chance to get him, they should have tried to seal the deal at almost any cost.

I think Kemp-Ethier-Ramirez might be a little rough in the OF. Still a good move, though.

by GuyinNY on Jul 31, 2008 6:04 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

morris

saw his last start for the dodgers org. apparently.

he was so erratic last night, throwing in the dirt and missing the plate.
he didnt look like he was throwing in the mid 90s like was reported before the TJ surgery.
his curve was okay, i wasn’t thoroughly impressed, but i guess its still somewhat early after missing all of last year

by god allah star on Jul 31, 2008 5:05 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

I've Been Following Him All Year

He seemed like he had really made strides with his control, but his past two starts he’s averageing about a BB per inning. I’m hoping it’s just a bump in the road back, or his new mechanics getting a little out of whack, and not something related to his elbow. I haven’t seen him in person, but it was reported that his velocity was back in instructional league last year, and before the season it was reported from Dodgers camp that his velo. was maybe better than ever. So again, hopefully what you saw is just a bump.

"I hate the people that love me, and they hate me!"

by Brett Keith on Jul 31, 2008 5:53 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

last night

his delivery was not very repeatable,
it looked a bit off, so maybe thats part of the issue.

he was peaking around 91

by god allah star on Jul 31, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

okay for all, but

I think, if I’m classifying a “winner”, it is LA. But it’s good for all.

For Pittsburgh – Moss offers them flexibility and a potential starter. If Tabata fails to develop, an OF of Moss/McCutchen/McLouth could be solid. I like LaRoche, although I think he was a bit overrated. That said, he has talent and needed a fresh start. He also has his brother there (not sure if that helps or hurts, but I’d lean towards help). I’m not big on Bryan Morris and wonder if he’s a pen arm. I’m not sure what to think of Hansen, although he still has closer potential. For Bay alone, that’s a solid haul.

For Boston – They wanted to dump Manny. Landing Bay at the cost of Manny/cash/Hansen/Moss isn’t ideal, but it is what it is and they get a middle of the order righty bat who they have for next year as well. Short of it – it is what it is.

For LA – I like this deal for them. As someone noted, LaRoche was messed up there. They never gave him a legit shot. Morris doesn’t tremendously excite me. For a big time bat like Manny, in the middle of race, to give up just LaRoche/Morris? Love it.

by toonsterwu on Jul 31, 2008 5:12 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

They get Manny for free to (Boston paid his remaining salary?) and he agreed to decline arb which nets them 2 comp picks in next year’s draft. That sounds like a nice haul to me if you have faith in your scouting and had given up on LaRoche as they had.

by jfish26101 on Jul 31, 2008 6:56 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Absolutely – the longer I think about this deal, the better it looks for the Dodgers. Not much of a downside, both short term and long term.

by wonderphenom on Jul 31, 2008 7:28 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

And both the players are coming off injuries.

Morris and TJ

LaRoche and his labrum

I think LA made out the best with Boston giving up the most. If LaRoche can recover, I think the Pirates made out OK. If he doesn’t recover, I just dunno. It’s possible Moss could turn into a Nady type player I suppose but a lot is riding on Tabata and LaRoche.

I like that they are acquiring high end talent though. I think Hunington is doing a “good” job but will probably be fired before he can see his work succeed unfortunately.

by jfish26101 on Jul 31, 2008 8:10 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

From the sounds of most TV analysts, maybe I short changed Morris but I think they are blowing him up just a bit. We will see but I still think LA has a real good shot at having the best of this deal before it’s all done. BA said he had a ceiling of a #3 but everyone on TV keeps saying a #1 or #2. We will find out. /me shrugs

by jfish26101 on Aug 1, 2008 12:20 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Farewell, sweet prince

I was just talking about Manuel Aristides in the newsroom last night, and how they almost had to trade him because they weren’t going to get anything if they declined the option (they, uh, wouldn’t, right?). I probably would’ve rather had Hermida, and didn’t see why the Red Sox had to get Bay, but I’ll certainly take him in LF.

As for Moss and Hansen, they were starting to lose their luster anyways; if Moss didn’t immediately replace Manny in LF, he probably would’ve been either a fourth OF or trade bait, and the Red Sox aren’t exactly hurting for bullpen arms.

"...and the only things I've found better than listening to Vin Scully are listening to Keith Jackson and uncut cocaine." (bleedjaxblue)

by drjayphd on Jul 31, 2008 5:13 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Bay>Manny

When you take into account defense, age, contract, and attitude I think that Bay is better option than Manny. That being said I am glad I won’t be seeing Manny against the Yanks any more.

by nyy601 on Jul 31, 2008 5:18 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

If it'd help with the coping process

I’m sure the Red Sox could go get Trot Nixon to hit late-game 633-run homers off Marte and Mariano… ;)

"...and the only things I've found better than listening to Vin Scully are listening to Keith Jackson and uncut cocaine." (bleedjaxblue)

by drjayphd on Jul 31, 2008 5:30 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Great deal for the Dodgers...and Bucs....

I love LaRoche, and I wish it coulda worked out for him in LA, but the bottom line was that he was trade bait….it wasn’t matter of “if” he would be traded but “when.” And given that, they got about the best player they could possibly imagine. Manny is exactly the type of player they needed, and the fact that they could pull off this deal without moving kemp or ethier is a big plus, as it assures that they won’t have a gaping hole in the OF next year. We’ll see what they do in regards to SS and 3B, maybe DeWitt, although I think he was playing over his head this year. I wouldn’t be surprised to see both blake and furcal re-signed, given the dearth of options out there at those two positions. At least nomar ($10 mil) will come off the books, then schmidt ($15 mil) and jones ($18 mil) the following year. We’ll see how their spending plays out…

A great deal for the bucs as well. They were gonna pay Bay a fortune to waste his talent on their crappy roster….now they getting a high ceiling slugger for 5 years in LaRoche, while both Moss and Hansen have at least flashed signs of being productive in the majors. One of them might turn into something useful….

For the Red Sox, at least they weren’t left with a huge hole in the OF, but they basically are paying Manny’s salary + prospects, for someone who, while he may be more valuable given all the factors (age, contract, defense, speed, etc.), is very much not Manny when it matters in the batters box. The bottom line is that this lineup is much less fearsome without Bay, and that could mean the difference between World Series Champion and runner-up this year.

by okteds on Jul 31, 2008 5:36 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Hmmmm...

What I don’t get is why didn’t the Pirates just keep the Dodgers out of the equation all together. A haul of Manny, Moss and Hansen for Bay sounds a hell of a lot nicer in my opinion. Were the Pirates on some ‘no trade’ clause list that I don’t know about? Don’t get me wrong, LaRoche is a great prospect but there aren’t many players out there who are HOF locks with a couple good years left in them. I get that they might not want to give him his $20 million or that he might chose not to resign with them, but now there’s not a single player on that team who has proven themself as a major league mainstay and I think it could really hurt the Pirates down the road. I hope I’m wrong though.

by rutgersjpm on Jul 31, 2008 5:52 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

I think you answered your own question

All indications are that Ramirez is going to be a free agent. There is no way Pittsburgh will pay him open market prices. So he would only be guaranteed to be there the rest of this season.

Pittsburgh probably won’t make the playoffs this year, so why not go for LaRoche, who might be a useful part on the next Pittsburgh contender, a few years down the road?

by El Duq of Hurl on Jul 31, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Plus Manny had a no trade clause that he had to waive...

I am sure he wouldnt have done it for the Pirates. He would not have been a free agent next year because he had two club options. But the Dodgers waived those rights so Manny would waive the no trade clause.

by tt68 on Jul 31, 2008 11:39 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

not mentioned much

but this will open up the gates for andrew mccutcheon to likely be starting for pittsburgh now….mccutcheon and mclouth in that outfield is a nice pair, and i guess i haven’t been following him this year, but i’d assume steven pearce would be the other young outfielder given a chance to prove himself for the rest of the year….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Jul 31, 2008 6:01 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Question

Is McCutchen on the Olympic roster?

by demondeaconsbaseball on Jul 31, 2008 6:06 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

yes, but....

that roster is extremely fluid, as we’ve seen with the three replacements already….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Jul 31, 2008 6:28 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

d'oh....

just got onto the olympic baseball site, and i guess i am incorrect….the roster is as follows:

C
Lou Marson
Taylor Teagarden

IF
Brian Barden
Matthew Brown
Jason Donald
Mike Hessman
Jayson Nix
Terry Tiffee

OF
Dexter Fowler
John Gall
Matt LaPorta
Nate Schierholtz

RHP
Jake Arrieta
Trevor Cahill
Jeremy Cummings
Kevin Jepsen
Brandon Knight
Mike Koplove
Blaine Neal
Jeff Stevens
Stephen Strasburg
Casey Weathers

LHP
Brett Anderson
Brian Duensing

interesting note….the only two left handed throwers on the entire roster are the two pitchers….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Jul 31, 2008 6:35 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Mccutchen

got snubbed from the roster. I think they took like 23 of the 25 guys on the Team USA roster from the futures game, and Cutch was one of the odd men out. Amazing since he probably has the most pure talent out of any position player on the team with the exception of LaPorta and maybe Fowler, depending on who you ask.

As a Pirates fan, I was looking forward to seeing Cutch in Beijing, but I guess him staying in AAA Indy just boosts the chances that he’ll get his cup of coffee at PNC Park in September.

by jseiner on Aug 1, 2008 10:09 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

maybe not snubbed

USA baseball reportedly did not take certain guys because their teams would not assure that the player would not be called up between the time of the announcement of the rosters and beijing…..i know that was the case with denard span….perhaps mccutcheon fit into that category as well….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Aug 2, 2008 3:43 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Damien Moss

Wow, they’s quite a haul for Damien Moss. I thought all they’d get is Wade Hendrickson.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jul 31, 2008 6:15 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Both the Sox

and the Bucs pulled this deal off beautifully.

The deal is a little shaky, IMO for the Dodgers. They could’ve avoided trading for Manny and Blake by simply starting LaRoche.

by METSMETSMETS on Jul 31, 2008 6:42 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

ummmm....

Look, I like LaRoche as much as anyone, and I’m constantly bitching to my Dodgers friends that LaRoche wasn’t given his fair shake at 3B but…..why the hell would they want to “avoid” getting Blake and Manny….

Face it…..they were gonna move LaRoche sometime this year…it was just a matter of what they would get in return, and how it would help them….and they just massively upgraded their tepid offense with those two deals.

by okteds on Jul 31, 2008 7:03 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

so...

....i’m still the only person who thinks LaRoche never has and quite possibly never will recover from the labrum and back issues? those are the same things that ended Eric Chavez. and, as you saw with Chavez, any “recovery” there is is only temporary, since the underlying problem is being injury prone.

hell—if i weren’t just happy about the deal, i’d be happy to see LaRoche go somewhere else so that people can SEE that he’s not the premier player everyone’s talking about. alas, i have zero doubt that, once he turns into a marginal third baseman, it will still be the Dodgers’ “fault” for destroying his development.

by bleedjaxblue on Jul 31, 2008 6:45 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Remember Carlos Quentin had the same problems

got traded to the whitesox and is probably their best hitter.

by Bravesin07 on Jul 31, 2008 6:48 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

....and some pitchers....

....have recovered from torn labrums too. it doesn’t mean i’d want to trade for one who still seemed to have limited range of motion.

i’m not saying “there’s no chance laroche recovers.” but you have to get over your fondness for recalling exceptions when making probabilistic judgments.

USUALLY, torn labrums are bad news for hitters. so far, LaRoche has shown me nothing to believe he’s covered from his (his stats as a player in his mid-20s in the PCL are not that hot). at that point, i don’t see why everyone here’s been so gung-ho for LaRoche the last year-plus.

by bleedjaxblue on Jul 31, 2008 6:59 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I think LaRoche has done well for himself this year

LaRoche’s power numbers could be better, but he has 37 BB/14K in 123 at-bats with Triple-A Las Vegas, good for a .452 OBP!

Yes, LaRoche has his share of negatives, but there’s a lot of stuff to like about him.

by sdbaseballfan on Jul 31, 2008 7:30 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

sure

but as a guy who will be 25 in two weeks, playing at Vegas, the OBP is the best thing you can say for him? how much are major leaguers really going to walk the guy if he CAN’T hit with any authority?

Luis Maza’s doing better in that category than LaRoche, and A.J. Ellis, Francisco Lizzarragga, Greg Jacobs and Terry Tiffee are also all over .400.

i’m not so stupid that i’m saying LaRoche isn’t a better prospect than those guys. but just a reminder that stats in Vegas are to be taken with a grain of salt—especially when you’re not particularly young for your league. what’s more disturbing is that his OTHER stats aren’t all that good. maybe because the other stats all require him to swing a bat, which he’s too injured to do? just a thought.

by bleedjaxblue on Jul 31, 2008 7:48 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

His hitting approach is what I like

So maybe LaRoche is still feeling the ill-effects of his labrum woes and he’s not completely 100%. I told you he had his share of negatives.

Bottom line, he still has a good approach at the plate right now, he’s controlling the strike zone. To me, that outweighs anything else when I evaluate a hitter. If he can get his strength back and get back to 90% health, I don’t think he will have any problems driving the ball. He’s done so in the past.

For the Pirates, an organization that was burned to the ground by the knucklehead moves of Syd Thrift and David Littlefield, getting a polished, seasoned hitter like LaRoche is a godsend. A Kevin Youkilis/Nick Johnson type of line at third is something the Pirates could have used more of in the past.

by sdbaseballfan on Jul 31, 2008 10:48 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

to clarify

because, re-reading this, i sound TOO negative on LaRoche. i think he has a legit shot to be an average major league third baseman. and still SOME shot at being really good. but i don’t get why everyone thinks he’s the same guy he was before the injuries. and i don’t think acquiring him is a big deal for the Pirates. frankly, i’m happy the Dodgers got real value for him.

by bleedjaxblue on Jul 31, 2008 7:51 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

second post

sounds a lot better….and a lot like my thoughts….

i loved laroche two years ago….and i still think he could be a very good player with an opportunity, but he wasn’t going to get that in los angeles….best to get value for him now while there’s still the label of “possible” over him before he turns into unrealized potential…..remember that his brother’s power was late blooming, and he was a strict platoon player for years before putting up numbers worthy of full time 1b….andy seems to have a better average stick and eye than his brother, so he’ll likely be a decent average hitter until that power develops (IF it develops)....

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Jul 31, 2008 8:05 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Andy and Adam

Adam carried a .447 slugging percentage in the minors. Andy’s career slugging percentage entering this season was .525. Andy’s power has already developed. It’s never been a problem for him until this season.

by sdbaseballfan on Jul 31, 2008 10:56 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

don't get me wrong

i’m in no way comparing the two as far as their raw abilities are concerned because it’s obvious that younger bro has older bro by miles….however, i would not say that andy’s power has developed yet at the major league level….but once it does, he’ll hit balls that make his brother’s best shots look like lazy flies….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Jul 31, 2008 11:50 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

and on Quentin....

....to clarify my position, using fantasy as my basis:

i own Quentin in my fantasy league because, the second he started hitting for power in the majors, i picked him up. because it PROVED he had recovered.

the difference is, LaRoche hasn’t turned that corner. and the nature of the injury is that, for more people than not, they never will. so, again, why treat it like a foregone conclusion?

by bleedjaxblue on Jul 31, 2008 7:03 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Captain Walker?

What becomes of Neil Walker with LaRoche in the fold now?

I know Walker has fallen out of favor, but he is only 22 in AAA with a BABIP of .258 despite a 20% LD and a .190 ISOP – 22 2B, 5 3B, and 14 HRs.

by cooper7d7 on Jul 31, 2008 7:20 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

corner outfield?

or right infield? freddy sanchez certainly hasn’t been the same hitter he was thought to be, and adam laroche, even with the brother connection now is killing the team during the first half…..or perhaps walker takes over the corner outfield spot left open by nady’s trade while mccutcheon takes over the other outfield spot…

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Jul 31, 2008 8:02 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

2nd

If I were the Pirates I’d think about moving LaRoche to 2nd in a couple years. Sanchez, I assume, is the highest paid player on the team right now and has a 2010 club option. Hopefully by the time they have to make a decision on whether or not to pick up the option Walker or Alvarez will be ready for the bigs. My guess is Adam LaRoche gets traded around next years deadline, Pearce becomes the first baseman, and their OF is Moss, McCutchen and McLouth.

by rutgersjpm on Aug 1, 2008 12:34 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs