Liriano call-up?

by bodyiq on Jul 18, 2008 2:04 PM EDT Comment 22 comments

Oh boy, this has turned into a bit of a mess with the investigation now taking place.

Liriano has been absolutely lights out for the last month now. This we know. He should without question be in the Twins rotation NOW.

But an investigation pointing to arbitration issues? I'm not so sure this is the right way to get back to the bigs.

It is my undestanding that he would earn more money next year by being up on the Twins now so I think I see this part of the point. But are he/Genske (agent) taking a risk here?

Will the Twins tire of this and potentially put him out there for a trade? It sure seemed like a simple promotion a week ago but now it has turned into so much more.

Any other thoughts or opinions out there as to how this will shake out?

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probably will end up being non-issue

but you never know. garza made similar claims, though i don’t think he ever filed a grievance, and look what happened to him.

i think liriano and his agent are stretching a bit here. yes, liriano is, at this point, a clear upgrade over livan. but, shoot, francisco, you were kind of sucking until about june 30. not to mention that your fastball isn’t as fast as it was pre surgery. the twins aren’t going to just DFA hernandez before trying to get something for him. patience, grasshopper. if you aren’t called up by august 1, then i’d start complaining. but this is just silly posturing at this point. arguing service time seems a bit odd right now considering, you know, liriano started the season with the major league team (counts towards service time, no?) and proceeded to suck his way to rochester.

any grievance would be frivolous and serves only to piss off his employer. i doubt it will have much effect, if any, on when he gets called up. it might affect, however, how the twins view him and how twins fans view him.

by larry on Jul 18, 2008 2:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I just really wonder how much crap the Twins will put up with. The Garza situation seemed to irk them enough to trade him. It certainly wouldn’t surprise me to see the Twins do the same with Liriano this offseason.

Side note: What’s with the avatar? Absolutely disgusting!

Ripken.....thanks for the memories...

by bodyiq on Jul 18, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

joke from another board. dead horse. as in people beating one.

one of the problems with having an “integrated” system here at sb nation.

by larry on Jul 18, 2008 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Liriano

He’d be smart to distance himself from his agent at this point whether this Genske guy is rogue or not. He’s going to have plenty of time to make millions throughout his career. If his agent really cared about his client he’d be playing it cautious like the Twins are. Liriano is peaking right now and it probably wont be long until he hits another dead arm period and has to shut it down before the rest of the season. That’s a lot easier to do in AAA than in the majors during a stretch run. In 2006 the organization couldn’t resist the temptation and rushed Liriano back and got burned, they’re not going to blow it again..

Gardenhire's major league career: Banjo hitting, futility infielder who couldn't lick it.
Rick Anderson's major league career: Strikethrower who never made it happen with his sub 90's fastball.
Really gives a new definition to living vicariously through other people, don't it?

by caseintheface on Jul 18, 2008 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Money

Maybe he’s worried that he might run out of replacement ligaments. He also had some shoulder issues that cost him half of the 2002 season, and all but 2/3 of an inning in 2003 (not counting 8 AFL IP) while in the Giants system (shudders).

Maybe it’s a similar thing to the Harden trade – injury is a high probability, and it’s best to get as much value as possible, as soon as possible.

Tim Lincecum is Baseball's Chuck Norris

by Azantor on Jul 18, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Harden lot

Not sure I’d throw Liriano in that lot yet. In 2005 he logged quite a few innings and he was durable until he tore the ligament in 2006. So far this year there have been no physical setbacks either. On top of that, Liriano has worked really hard to develop muscles and bulk in all the right places to prevent recurrences of such injuries.

by caseintheface on Jul 18, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Harden

Didn’t mean to imply that Liriano is the same injury risk as Harden, whose arm is held together by paper mache and chewing gum.

I’m not thrilled with Liriano’s mechanics (I think his motion is a little violent), but if it works for him, that’s fine. I understand that the guy is frustrated, and if he didn’t get beaten up twice within a week by Louisville and Indy, his ERA is around 1 since the end of may. He should be in the show, and I guess this grievance thing is just to make some noise.

However, I still stand by my earlier statement that the clock is ticking until his next DL stint, and if it’s an extended stay, could cost him some money. More promising arms have been lost to career altering injuries, but at 25, I’d say his future is still bright.

Too bad the Giants didn’t keep him. How would a rotation of (in no particular order) Lincecum, Cain, Lowry, Sanchez and Liriano look, assuming everyone was healthy? Damn…

Tim Lincecum is Baseball's Chuck Norris

by Azantor on Jul 18, 2008 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Imagine MN fans drooling during the middle of '06

Santana
Garza
Liriano
Baker
Slowey

by caseintheface on Jul 18, 2008 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Knee-jerk reaction

People complain about service time when it comes to top prospects, wondering if MLB teams are too conservative to bring up a player, just because they know his time will be ticking.

Now, Liriano isn’t a top prospect anymore, but I don’t see how it isn’t the same thing. If the guy shows he has nothing left to prove [beside suffering a possible injury], the he should be called up in order to ultimately help the parent club.

Liriano’s agent isn’t some radical – he’s just looking for an opportunity for his client.

by BBFan1 on Jul 18, 2008 6:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Annoyed

This kind of pisses me off. Yeah, he has some great numbers the last four starts. And the Twins have made it clear he’s close and would probably be up if they had an opening, but he still has been struggling with high pitch counts. With the bullpen struggling a bit (other than Nathan), makes more sense to let him work on that in AAA then come up and struggle with that up here (as long as we don’t need him urgently in the rotation). Yeah…it hits his service time, but even if he was called up a week or two ago, he likely wouldn’t qualify as a “Super 2” arbitration player this year. He hasn’t done anything this year to deserve a big pay day anyway. Next year, he’ll get his money. He’ll be fine. For now, quit whining, climb up on that mound, and throw strikes. The rest will take care of itself.

by purppride1 on Jul 18, 2008 8:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Having the worst starting pitcher in baseball...

in their rotation doesn’t qualify as an opening? Then I guess Liriano’s doomed to stay at AAA forever.

by DrunkIrish on Jul 19, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Crash Davis says...

NEVER fuck with a winning streak

"Ninety percent I'll spend on good times, women and Irish Whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."

by strums on Jul 19, 2008 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not Liriano...

keeping him down. Whether it’s true or not, I believe the Twins when they say that it is Livan who is blocking Liriano.

The rest of that rotation combined has about 755 innings in the majors, Baker accounts for half of that. That averages out to only about 1 year’s worth of experience each. Livan has about 2500 innings under his belt. I believe the Twins when they say he is providing more help to that team than you can see on a scorecard. None of us are in the clubhouse or the dugout with the team so we don’t really know.

"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile

by Boxkutter on Jul 19, 2008 1:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Livan

If that’s the case, then he can provide those services from the bullpen. As a bullpen coach.

This team is 1.5 games out of first place in the Central, and they keep running Livan out there every 5 days to give up the most hits in the modern era. They seriously need to bring up Liriano and trade for a 3B immediately and make a run at the postseason. There’s no guarantee that they’ll have this opportunity again in the next couple of years.

by jibs on Jul 19, 2008 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

23-8

Twins are one of the hottest teams in baseball WITHOUT Liriano. And they believe Livan is a big part of that success. They’re not going to mess with it. Three of his last 5 starts have been quality starts, and another one nearly was (4ER in 7IP). His last outing was really his only bad one in his last 5. Unless he goes into a funk and can’t get out of it, he’s not going anywhere.

by purppride1 on Jul 19, 2008 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who gives the Twins a better chance to win each 5th day?

Between Livan and Liriano, I’d be a lot more confident sending Liriano out there. Just my opinion, and I admit that I don’t buy into the “chemistry”/”leadership” angle much when looking at player performance.

by jibs on Jul 19, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Every 5th Day

It probably is more likely that Liriano gives them a better chance every 5th day… but what if having Livan around helps them win the other 4? You are allowed to not buy into the leadership and chemistry thing, but it does happen with teams. Ever hear any of the Diamondback players last season talk about Tony Clark? They speak of him almost like a demigod. That’s why they went and traded for him this past week. It wasn’t for his bat, it was for him as a leader. Many of the 2004 Red Sox credit Orlando Cabrera as being a much more important player on that team than you will see in the box scores. He certainly didn’t bring a better bat to Boston than Nomar had, but he helped turn that team into a team.

There are some personalities that can just bring people together, whether in sports or not. They can turn a collection of people into a group. Magnetic people.

"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile

by Boxkutter on Jul 19, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right

So I agree, if he’s a great presence in the clubhouse and the chartered flights, then definitely keep him around. That doesn’t mean that he still needs to start.

by jibs on Jul 19, 2008 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If they believe Livan is a big part of their success...

then the Twins are still stupid to keep him in the rotation. Any positives he brings to the team certainly aren’t seen when he’s actually pitching.

by DrunkIrish on Jul 19, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actual Minnesota Twins Fan Comment

Liriano may certainly give the Twins a better chance to win. But right now the Twins are winning with Livan no matter how brutal his stats are. They’re already in a position where there eating the contracts dolled out Adam Everrett and Mike Lamb so they might as well continue to get whatever they can from Livan. Having watch most Twins games, I can say that while it’s never pretty, whenever Livan pitches 7+ innings giving up 4 runs or less, the Twins have won. On top of all this, we know that Livan can physically pitch the rest of the season. With Liriano it’s ridiculous to assume he can even pitch much beyond the 160 inning point.

Were opening a stadium in less than two years and it makes a lot of sense to have Liriano working towards taking the mound on opening day 2010 rather than throwing him out there now and hoping he can hold his arm together for the rest of this season.

by caseintheface on Jul 19, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Liriano is still throwing 6 plus innings every 5 days

Why not put them to use for the big league squad? It doesn’t seem that they have put an innings cap on him for this year, so I don’t see how pitching in Rochester instead of Minneapolis is any less of a health risk.

I think that winning an pennant and giving your team a shot to win the World Series needs to be made a priority in any year that you get the opportunity, especially for mid/small market teams.

I’m sure that on days that Livan goes 7 innings and gives up 4 or less runs, the Twins probably win a lot of those games. I’m sure that most teams have a pretty good record whenever any of their starting pitchers go 7 IP and gives up 4 or less.

And the contracts for Lamb and Everett should be irrelevant. A sunk cost is a sunk cost. They paid Livan $5 mil to eat innings in case some of the youngsters didn’t pan out this year. Liriano wasn’t ready to start the season, so Livan did his job as an innings eater. At this point in time however, he’s not one of the top 5 SP in this organization, so he shouldn’t stay in the rotation.