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Did Sickels get one wrong?-Pelfrey

In a recent column written by Mr. Sickels (whom I believe is the best baseball writer around) he said he didn't see improvement in Mike Pelfrey. I thought this was a shocking comment and to me proved that sometimes focusing ONLY on certain numbers does not tell the whole story. Pelfrey Last 9 Starts: 6-0, 59.2 innings, 53 hits, 41 Ks, 21 BBs, 15 Earned Runs, 1.239 WHIP. More then just that, if you actually watch him you see a different pitcher out there.

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I'm still a skeptic

He’s had three good starts in a row, but overall he’s walking far too many batters this year. Doesn’t really have an out pitch either.

by number_twentyone on Jul 13, 2008 11:06 PM EDT   0 recs

"doesn't have an out pitch"

I think Matt Holliday and Albert Pujols might disagree. He struck them both out on 2-seamers inside. That’s his out pitch.

The key to Pelfrey’s recent success has been getting ahead with his 4-seam fastball and then getting hitters to chase the sinker. When he only used the 2-seamer, he couldn’t control it well enough to get ahead in the count.

by jeck on Jul 14, 2008 1:03 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Skepticism warranted, but still...

Granted, he’s probably not THIS good, but thats two starts in a row without walking anyone. He doesn’t need an offspeed “out pitch” because he’s more effectively using his off speed offerings (slider, curve and change) to set up his fastball. His fastball is just an effective put away pitch when he’s at least making people think off-speed.

He’s still needs work to become top echelon, but is rounding into at least a back of the rotation starter.

by thudean on Jul 13, 2008 11:11 PM EDT   0 recs

It was the Giants and the Rockies away from Coors…not impressive.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Jul 14, 2008 12:11 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pelfrey

His last two wins were against teams that right now are just not that good. His start against St. Louis cannot be minimized, but I think the last two are a bit unrealistic in terms of indicating future performance. That being said, now that he is locating his fastball much better, it is making his other stuff more powerful. He is not walking as many hitters and he is getting more swings and misses. He is also getting a tremendous number of ground balls. I think he recorded like 12 or 13 outs on the ground before his first fly out. Moreover, when he has allowed hits, very few have been hard. I think he has gone over 60 innings without allowing a HR. Even when he does allow hits, he is getting the double play ball. Is he Brandon Webb? No. However, he can be a solid #2/#3 guy for a long time if he can improve against lefties. Anytime you have a guy who forces ground balls you are going to have a lot of hits because those balls find holes at times, but he is definitely someone to watch

by mtk52983 on Jul 13, 2008 11:12 PM EDT   0 recs

Cards

But you are minimizing it. Yes, these weren’t great teams but he horribly dominated them. He’s also been pitching very well for a number of starts now. I definitely think he’s improving, possibly regaining the status he had as a prospect?

by Lunkwill Fook on Jul 14, 2008 12:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pelfrey

He is throwing his fb with confidence; which I like.

I still don’t think his secondary pitches are anything worth talking about. Hopefully he can keep improving on them. He sure does have a nice fb though.

by npurcell on Jul 13, 2008 11:37 PM EDT   0 recs

Small Sample Size

He is developing, but these games aren’t a true symbol of how well.

by demondeaconsbaseball on Jul 14, 2008 12:28 AM EDT   0 recs

um?

does he even have a breaking ball worth mentioning?

his potential seems very limited without one

by god allah star on Jul 14, 2008 10:30 AM EDT   0 recs

Watched the entire game

They are allowing him to throw the Curve again and he threw a few that were great imo.

The slider isn’t an average pitch yet, but tis getting there.

You can mention what teams he is playing against all you want, but he isn’t walking hitters right now, and he is attacking them. Again, for the most part everyone talks about people they have never seen. If you have watched Mike Pelfrey over the past three years you can see he is very confident right now, something he lacked in the past. He is attacking with his fastball, another thing he lacked. I’m happy with the current results.

Remember: baseball guys... baseball...

by Metty5 on Jul 14, 2008 10:33 AM EDT   0 recs

What causes what though? Is he pitching well because he’s confident, or is he confident because he’s pitching well.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Jul 14, 2008 12:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Who the heck knows?

But he clearly was not confident in the past. He never attacked hitters, and his mound presence was horrible. Today, he is a much different pitcher than he was in the past.

I’d say the two go hand in hand and play into one another.

Remember: baseball guys... baseball...

by Metty5 on Jul 14, 2008 1:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

confidence came first

he was putting guys on a ton but there was a little stretch where he was able to get out of the jams, get some wins or at least keep the team in the game. He then started getting the ball over more. I saw that as he became confident he could get guys out and trust his stuff. He ha d afew games where he gave up a ton of bloops, bleeders and seeing eye hits, got squeezed by the umps, and thing dteriorated. Because of the grounders he will give up hits.

He does get into these royal battles with guys fouling off pitch after pitch. Saw him do that with Augie Ojeda, who finally lined a double for some runs. Against rockies though, forget who it was, that happened and he finally got the pop up.

McCarver also said something interesting. he wanted his pitchers to pitch up in the zone more. Said he’d never heard that. Interesting, because Peterson was big on pitching DOWN. He was obsessed with it. Pelfrey had to mix in both fastballs and I think he does that better. Plus he went back to the curve.

Obviously he won’t continue like the last 2 games, but I definitely see him as a mid-3.00 e.r.a starter, maybe even better. Someone said low 4s to mid 4s? Maybe, but long haul I doubt it. I think he will be quite good. Very hard to square up on his ball.

by wobatus on Jul 15, 2008 7:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

warthen

Meant to say McCarver said Warthen, new picthing coach, wanted his pitchers to pitch more up in the zone tha before.

pelfrey’s 2 starts under warthen have been great, but he pitched well again St Louis under willie and eterson to start the streak. Perez has been nice under warthen too, but he has always been blown hot and cold.

by wobatus on Jul 15, 2008 7:47 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

A lot of people were wrong

The truth is he doesn’t need any secondary pitches. The improvment came when he stopped trying to learn new pitches and just threw both fastballs. The main thing he needed was improved command of the sinker.

When he went back to pitching off the four-seamer is when he started to improve. Then came improving command of the sinker and using that as his swing and miss pitch. Nearly all of his improvment came not from working on his secondary pitches, but working on his best pitch, the sinker (two-seam fastball). He’s getting better movement on it and commanding it to both sides of the plate. He needs to use the four-seamer to set it up so guys can’t sit on it.

Here is Pelfreys line for those past 9 starts

H9: 8.14
BB9: 2.86
SO9: 6.18
RA9: 2.26

What it comes down to is, he really didn’t need to strike more guys out to be a good #2/#3; the quickest road to that improvement was simply to walk less. With his low HR rate, an SO9 of 6.00 is enough to be a #2. So he didn’t need to develop a swing and miss breaking ball. He needed to pound the strikezone with his fastball.

A line such as the following is sustainable long term for Pelfrey:

BB9: 2.5
SO9: 6.0
HR9: 0.7
FIP: 3.71

I am assuming just a bit more improvement in the walk rate, but also a regression in the HR rate to well above his career average; I do think a HR9 of 0.7 at most is sustainable with Pelfrey’s stuff. That may even be conservative; if he keeps it at 0.5, that FIP becomes 3.42.

by acerimusdux on Jul 14, 2008 11:19 AM EDT   0 recs

Interesting

I think this is an interesting post, although I’m not sure I agree with the bottom line. I believe a 6.0 K/9 would leave Pelfrey with a very thin margin for success. It’s true that some starters have been consistently above-average at 6.0, but it’s a pretty short list, and I believe that they had BB/9s well below 2.5. In addition, looking forward, I question whether Pelfrey will be able to sustain an HR/9 at 0.7. I understand his career averages may be below that, but that may not be the case once the Mets leave Shea.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jul 14, 2008 12:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Glavine

WARNING: I am not comparing Pelfrey to Glavine! He is just an example of somebody who has career ratios similar to those under discussion.

Tom Glavine has averaged 5.3K/9, 3.5BB/9 and .72HR/9 for his career.

In 1991, he had 7.0K/9 and 2.5BB/9, and gave up .62HR/9. He won his first Cy Young Award that year.
In 1998, he had 6.16K/9 and 2.9BB/9, and gave up .51HR/9. He won his second Cy Young Award that year.

Pelfrey may never put up numbers like that, but if he does average 6K/9 and less than 3BB/9, while keeping the homers in check, he’ll be a pretty good pitcher.

"Dying is no big deal. The least of us will manage that. Living is the trick." - Red Smith

by finman on Jul 14, 2008 5:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure

Now all Pelfrey has to do is turn around and pitch with his left hand and develop one of the toughest change-ups of the last 25 years…

Just kidding. It’s certainly possible to be a successful (and perhaps even very successful) major-league pitcher with ratios like the ones above (although to be fair in neither case was Glavine’s K/9 as low as 6.0), but it’s a very tall order, IMO.

We agree on one thing. The key for Pelfrey will be to keep balls in the park. If he can somehow defy the odds and demonstrate the ability to keep his HR/9s in the 0.5-0.7 range, he could be fine. I personally would not bet on that outcome, however.

Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball

by Yakker on Jul 14, 2008 5:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

How

many good pitches do Wang or Carmona throw?

by Peter North on Jul 14, 2008 11:28 AM EDT   0 recs

Think those are hard comps

Wang was actually someone that had a really good fastball until his injury a couple years ago and when he first broke in with the Yankess, did not have his velocity and relied on a different style of pitching. His k/9 rate has steadily increased each year as he struck out more in fewer innings last year and was on pace to get that average over 5.1 per 9 this year versus a 3.2 year one and 4.7 year 2.

Pelfrey has to still develop those extra pitches that Wang was able to rely on while getting his velocity back on his fastball.

What concerns me a little about Pelfrey is that all the Mets pitchers are doing well right now as the team is doing well. He was the beneficiary of timely double plays as he 3 in the first 5 innings and the 1 that got him out of the 3rd was a great play by the 2B to scoop up a Wright throw and get it on to 1st. Obviously he made the pitch to get the double play ball but he is putting quite a few runners on base and getting out of innings. That is good but the question to me is whether or not that type of success is sustainable. How will he pitch when the Mets need a win after a 4 game losing streak? How is he going to pitch when he doesn’t have a lead like the 4-0 one the Mets spotted him last night?

Not a knock, just some things I will be interested to see before giving a full evaluation of him.

by slickwdb on Jul 14, 2008 12:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Last 6 starts

6-0

Mets runs/per game near 8

by Duece on Jul 14, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Slider

Pelfrey’s slider isn’t a horrible pitch.. Because of how dominant his 4 and 2 seam fastballs are he doesn’t need to rely heavily on an off-speed pitch.. Though last night, Pelfrey flashed several good sliders which didn’t have a huge break, but had late movement, and at 4-6 MPH less than his fastball, had hitters off-balance.

He’s made fools out of Holliday and Pujols in his last 3 starts.. The inside 2-seamer is def a strikeout pitch.

by Duece on Jul 14, 2008 12:39 PM EDT   0 recs

Over v. Underappreciation

The problem with evaluating Pelfrey remains the same one thats always existed. He had such lofty expectations that ran into problems when he couldn’t develop an off-speed offering that was above average. Therefore, until he created the above-average off-speed offering, he couldn’t be a good pitcher. That’s not entirely true (though it would help). Just two average off-speed offerings (now using curve, change and slider) would immensely increase the value of his two above-average fastballs (huge moving 2 seamer and 94-96 mph 4 seamer).

End result – his status and inability to have the dominating breaking ball will continue to harness doubters until he can do this for a full year, beginning to end. The reticence in believing is warranting, but denying that he’s making progress is foolhardy. He may never be the #1 starter imagined on draft day, but if he could fit in the middle of the rotation, then that would be super. He doesn’t need the crazy good breaking ball to be a #3 starter.

by thudean on Jul 14, 2008 1:48 PM EDT   0 recs

NL POW

Pelfrey was named NL Player of the Week today. In two starts, Pelfrey fired 15 shutout innings while striking out ten and walking none.

"Dying is no big deal. The least of us will manage that. Living is the trick." - Red Smith

by finman on Jul 14, 2008 5:08 PM EDT   0 recs

I see

I see Mike Pelfrey as a low-to-mid-fours ERA type of guy, although he may have the potential for better. But while I expect him to fall back before the season ends, I don’t see that regression in sight soon.

by sharksrog on Jul 14, 2008 8:00 PM EDT   0 recs

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