Top College Hitters for the 2008 Draft
Here is how I rank the top college hitters for the 2008 draft, as of May 6th. I'm looking at the stats and trying to make a contextual adjustment for comparison purposes, as well as scouting reports, TV and video, intuition, etc.
1) Pedro Alvarez,3B, Vanderbilt: Hitting .294/.400/.471 in 24 games, his OPS is approximately +10 percent compared to context. Obviously this is much below expectation and his previous standards, however the injury is the main factor here. Scouts are cutting him slack and he's still expected to go in the Top Five overall, and at this point I don't see any reason to override consensus given his track record.
2) Buster Posey, C, Florida State: HItting .464/.562/.827, OPS is about +63 percent better than context. Posey's stock is rising due to his tremendous hitting this year as well as the fact that he's proven to be a reasonable-enough defender behind the plate. Ranking him ahead of Smoak and Alonso may be a bit controversial but he's done everything asked of him and finding a catcher who can hit and field is harder than finding a first baseman who can hit.
3) Gordon Beckham, SS, Georgia: Hitting .412/.524/.874, OPS is about +79 percent better than context. Has also stolen 16 bases in 17 attempts, producing power, plate discipline, etc., and he can play shortstop. Some people compare him to Khalil Greene, others say he'll hit better than that. Again, this might be controversial ranking him ahead of Smoak and maybe I'll change my mind.
4) Justin Smoak, 1B, South Carolina: Hitting .401/.515/.808, 19 homers, 44 walks, OPS about +64 compared to context. I have loved Smoak's bat since high school...power, plate discipline, switch hitter, good glove. I could see him possibly developing into a Lance Berkman-type hitter if all goes well. Smoak fights expectations sometimes, but I think that's because people have been watching him for so long that he gets nitpicked. Yesterday I had him ahead of Posey and Beckham, and I might go back to that again.
5) Yonder Alonso, 1B, Miami: HItting .384/.550/.775 with 53 walks, OPS about +62 percent compared to context. Like Smoak, I love the bat here. He might not offer quite as much raw power, but it should be enough and his plate discipline and relative performance is just as good.
6) Jemile Weeks, 2B, Miami: Htting .390/.459/.692 with 16 steals in 17 attempts, OPS is about +40 compared to context. I am very confident that Weeks will hit for average and steal bases, and I think his defense at second base is probably a bit underrated. I'm not sure how the walk rate will hold up against better competition, and his power is going to be a question given his size. His slot here at 6 is not stable, and I could see him going down as far as 9 depending on how things look a couple of weeks from now.
7) Ike Davis, OF, Arizona State: Hitting .401/.473/.822, OPS about +53 compared to context. One thing I really like: 21 doubles to go with 15 homers, which (stat-wise at least) indicates further power projection to come; by contrast Wallace has hit just 8 doubles to go with his 15. As I said yesterday, I really like Davis intuitively. His plate discipline isn't quite as good as Wallace's but I like him.
8) Brett Wallace, 3B-1B, Arizona State: Hitting .404/.534/.737 with 13 steals, his OPS is about +50 percent compared to context. I love his bat, although not as much as Alonso and Smoak. Questions about where he will fit defensively remain, but it's hard to knock the production. I don't like him quite as much as I like Davis, intuitively.
9) Reese Havens, SS, South Carolina: Hitting .376/.504/.646, OPS about +42 percent. Best attribute here is plate discipline. I agree with the consensus view that he won't play shortstop at higher levels, and if I drafted him I'd just stick him at third base and let him hit.
10) Eric Thames, OF, Pepperdine: Hitting .387/.503/.781, 10 steals in 11 attempts, 13 homers, 31 walks, OPS about +60 percent. Rising up draft boards, Thames has always had tools but has taken a huge step forward in skills this year, with dramatic improvements in all categories compared to last year. His relative rate of production ranks with the elite guys and I don't see any reason at all not to rank him highly.
Things to consider when looking at these ten players:
College stats have to be taken with large grains of sodium chloride, given the huge variances in competition, the metal bat, etc. Nevertheless, you can at least get a feel for how dominant a player has been within the context in which he plays.
Strength of Schedule: According to Boyd Nation's College Baseball Rankings , the strength of schedule faced by these players goes like this: Pepperdine 18, Arizona State 24, Georgia 45, Florida State 51, South Carolina 64, Miami 68, Vanderbilt 81. According to this at least, Thames at Pepperdine has actually faced the most difficult competition on the season of any of these players.
Then there are Park Factors : Arizona State 118, Miami 109, Florida State 98, Vanderbilt 90, South Carolina 85, Georgia 79, Pepperdine 71. That deflates the Davis and Wallace a bit, and boosts Posey, Beckham, and most especially Thames.
So how do you guys rank these players, all things considered? Am I right that positional factors should weight enough to boost Posey and Beckham higher than the first basemen? How much slack should we cut Alvarez due to the injury? This is all preliminary and I'm open to argument. Make your case.
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Question for John
John,
Thanks for taking time out of your day to do previews like this. I know you put a lot of effort into them.
Do you see any of these guys having signability issues and possibly taking a large tumble to some of the orgs that laugh in the face of Selig and his henchmen a la Porcello to Detroit last year or Hochevar in 05 (with LA)? If so, whom is the most obvious candidate, in your opinion, to do so
by ZackAttack on
May 6, 2008 2:27 PM EDT
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Question for John
Which current or former player’s bat would you compare Alverez’s bat to?
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
May 6, 2008 3:14 PM EDT
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Thanks, John
Nice job on the list.
I don’t recall seeing Thames this high on any other lists thus far, and I agree, he could be an intriguing under the radar prospect.
One question: Ike Davis is listed as an OF, but from what I can find, he has only played 1B at Arizona St. Is he projected as being capable of playing the OF in the majors?
Your rankings of Posey and G Beckham could be a bit controversial, but I just read Jonathan Mayo’s article in which he quotes a scouting director as saying in regards to this year’s draft, ”...I think you’ll see a lot of deal-cutting and a lot drafting for need.” So perhaps for this particular draft, with it’s wealth of 1B-types and dearth of up-the-middle players, your rankings hold a good deal of merit. The tenet is to of course, “take the best player available”, but if every team followed this idea the draft would be a lot more predictable. Your rankings might more closely match those of scouting directors who have more to consider and who do more than just compile a list of the BPA’s in order. I am curious as to how you foresee the first two rounds going down and hope that you are planning to publish your predictions.
by baseballjunkie on
May 6, 2008 4:01 PM EDT
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Ike and the OF
Ike played his entire sophomore season in the outfield due to the ASU infield depth. He moved pretty well and he has a big arm (ASU’s closer as well).
This season, the infield depth at ASU has disappeared (Romine/Sogard drafted, Retherford graduated, Hall transferred to Ole Miss or MSU can’t remember). Ike moved to 1B being lefty and Wallace moved back to 3B (where he played earlier in his career).
by gunkdog on
May 6, 2008 4:10 PM EDT
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Hall
transferred to Auburn… close on the guesses.
he has kind of imploded there unfortunately for him
by nms on
May 6, 2008 4:11 PM EDT
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Um
I’m sorry. South Carolina having a pitchers park park factor is patently ridiculous and is a flagship reason to be wary of reading too much into this stuff. It is a hitters park, a home run paradise. i mean, it is no Coors field – and Ray Tanners lineups always have enough juice to get some 4-baggers in any par – but it is no pitchers park
Also, what might be more useful that Sced Strength when looking at hitters is the quality of pitchers the batters have faced. For instance… the SEC (opposite of its usual rep of gorilla-ball) has the lowest ERA in the NCAA this year
by nms on
May 6, 2008 4:11 PM EDT
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???
Where did this come from? I generally like your posts about college nms but I didn’t see John say anything about SC being a pitchers park. A rating of 85 means it’s easier to hit in correct? 100 is the median so unless I missed something he is giving it credit as a hitter’s park unless you are trying to say we shouldn’t put anything into Smoak’s numbers?
by jfish26101 on
May 6, 2008 5:03 PM EDT
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no
” Over 100 favors batters, under 100 favors pitchers.”
According to BB-Ref. So 85=pitchers… 115=hitters
At least that is how MLB park factors work. Im assuming same goes for NCAA. And if, for some reason, its under 100=hitters park for college than AZ State’s park looks way off.
At any rate. I’m not trying to criticize John, I know he is just putting the numbers out there and I’m not criticizing Boyd Nation who does some great work in putting these numbers out there. I think it is great that someone is even trying to make these numbers useful and available. I’m just pointing out this is a clear example of how much fog there is to look through when trying to glean too much from college stats and how – like John said – you need to take it with a shaker full of salt sometimes
by nms on
May 6, 2008 5:09 PM EDT
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Hmm
I could have sworn it was the other way around. Oh well, my bad.
by jfish26101 on
May 6, 2008 5:10 PM EDT
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generally
100 =Neutral 101= hitters and 99=pitchers.
1941 .406
by FrozenTed9 on
May 6, 2008 5:09 PM EDT
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Alright thanks.
Never the less, don’t park factors change from year to year? Isn’t it possible their field played out as more of a pitchers park? Just playing devil’s advocate now but it’s possible. Coor’s Field isn’t near the hitters haven it used to be right? I know WVU’s Hawley Field just put up a batters eye this past off-season and I’m sure that changed our rating.
by jfish26101 on
May 6, 2008 5:14 PM EDT
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Yes
which is why it is usually best to use 3-year park factors to reduce the variability.
And just bc a park put up pitchers park numbers one year does not mean it was not just as easy to hit in as it was the year before
by nms on
May 6, 2008 5:20 PM EDT
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but
obviously I am sure it is very hard to put together or find 3-year PFs for college.. so you have to take what you can get
by nms on
May 6, 2008 5:21 PM EDT
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good piece
These types of articles are the best ones. Not a lot of surprises on the list. Everyone is pretty much there. Posey may be higher than some want him, but it’s hard to find anyone who doesn’t love the guy lately.
by rdf8585 on
May 6, 2008 4:14 PM EDT
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posey
unless of course you listen to a lot of the posters on this board. you should have seen some of the stuff written about him in some of those community mock threads. there were people saying they wouldn’t take him until pick 20 or 25. craziness.
by fewgoodcards on
May 6, 2008 4:18 PM EDT
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yeah
It is amazing sometimes how a high batting average is a BAD thing to some people. People see hes hitting damn near 500 and you hear the crap about ‘blah, blah singles hitter, blah, blah”. I genuinely think that if he was hitting .350 instead of .450 – and everything else was the same – some people’s opinions of him would be high
Posey isn’t the greatest player ever or anything but he is more talented, and has better numbers, than the sluggers some people idolize
by nms on
May 6, 2008 5:11 PM EDT
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If he was hitting .350 instead of .450 and his OBP/SLG were the same
He’d be a more valuable player because his ISO would be 100 points higher and he’d still be getting on base at the same rate.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on
May 7, 2008 9:44 PM EDT
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Alvarez
What the heck are we supposed to make of this guy’s season? He came in with the “generational prospect” tag on him, as many reputable prospect analysts said last year that he was a better overall prospect than David Price.
After coming back from the hand injury, he’s been solid but hardly spectacular. Do we just give him a pass and keep him as the top prospect no matter what others do?
by deezle on
May 6, 2008 4:24 PM EDT
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Alvarez has actually been
much, much better of late and his conference stats are quite good.
His numbers are being dragged down by going like 1-9 in his first two games back against a couple midweek teams and then a couple 0-fers later where small-school pitchers were pitching around him and he hacked.
That is a little concerning, but not more than a little. hand injuries can take some time to mentally and physically recover from.
The fact that his SEC numbers are great looks good
by nms on
May 6, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
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I agree through #6 (Weeks).
I would probably go 7 Havens, 8 Gillaspie, 9 Thames, 10 Davis, 11 David Cooper, 12 Wallace due to position scarcity and park factors.
Gillaspie was the Cape Cod MVP and his stats mirror Havens.
Thames ranking is based on park factor and athleticsism .
Cooper’s stats are almost identical with Wallace’s and his park factor is worse. Of course he fields like a DH.
by lonestar on
May 6, 2008 4:33 PM EDT
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Smoak
How quickly could he rise to the majors? I think he would probably start in Hi A, spend his first year there and at double. Then in his second year make his major league debut in september. Does this seem like a reasonable ascension through the minors or is this too optimistic?
by Birdfan01 on
May 6, 2008 6:32 PM EDT
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Re: Smoak
I see Smoak as the most polished player available in this draft. He’s been at 1st for his entire career and is going to provide GG-quality defense, so that won’t need any work in the minors. And while he has put up monster numbers this year, he also has a picture-perfect swing without any mechanical flaws that I can see.
I know most teams shy away from taking college 1st basemen early, but this guy is worthy of breaking the trend IMO. I can easily see him in the big leagues after 1-2 years in the minors, assuming no injuries.
Founder of the Rowdy Hardy Fan Club
by eazyb81 on
May 6, 2008 7:11 PM EDT
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outside of the defense
i think you’ll hear frank thomas-like comparisons about smoak. i’m by no means saying he’ll be as great as thomas is/was – who knows about that. but in terms of their college careers, being very polished hitters, and ability to rise quickly, i think it’s pretty apt.
Jesus H. Larry! I said the first half!
by larry on
May 7, 2008 12:35 PM EDT
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Just my two cents...
So how do you guys rank these players, all things considered?
IMHO, there’s a very clear top five (who happen to be your top five) and a very large middle class of players who rank from six on. I think I like Havens more than Weeks (Havens has a smoother swing and better plate discipline) and Wallace more than Davis (just a longer track record of success and again better plate discipline) but those are nits based on personal preference.
Am I right that positional factors should weight enough to boost Posey and Beckham higher than the first basemen?
To quote Reverend Lovejoy, yes with a but, and no with an if. Again, this draft comes down to preference because I believe its a deep group of college hitters but you run into the fact that there isn’t much differentation between the groups.
Is it right to have say Beckham and Posey ahead of Smoak and Alonso? If you’re a team like the Giants and have a significant investment in Angel Villalona at first base and Methusula Omar Vizquel at shortstop, then the answer is probably no. If you’re a team like the Orioles with a heavy investment in Matt Wieters, then the answer is probably yes.
How much slack should we cut Alvarez due to the injury?
Some. That kind of injury definitely saps your hitting ability. But I still have nits about Alvarez from his past performances, and those are the things that knock in my mind. Is a third baseman long term is the big one in my mind? I tend to lean towards no, and that opens up the long term question of is he a better hitter than Alonso and Smoak. And I tend to lean toward no there. The strikeout numbers at Vandy are what scare me most of all.
It’s hard to say what’s going to happen come June right now, but if Alvarez comes out and asks for Teixeria money, the fact that he’s to Teixeira what Jared Weaver was to Mark Prior is going to cause him to drop.
by jewscott on
May 6, 2008 7:10 PM EDT
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The U
I get the impression that Miami players usually do better than you would expect (football and baseball).
So I would say the Miami guys have less of chance to completely bomb.
Of course I went there, so my opinion is biased.
by elricsi on
May 6, 2008 10:45 PM EDT
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Thoughts..
I suppose it’s simply a philosophical difference, but I really don’t buy into the school of thought that you value hitters more because they play at a premium position, but it’s JMO. I’m starting to warm up to Beckham a bit more, and I think he’ll always be average defensively, great hitter for average, and above average power for his position. I just don’t see him as a 30 HR guy because of his frame and swing…He’ll probably hit around 20 HR at his peak, which is still great for a SS.
I’m still not as high as others are on Posey…I just don’t see him hitting more than 15-20 HRs in a season. Posey has a low floor but not as high as a ceiling as some may think. Like I said it’s just a philosophical difference, but I want the best bat in my line-up, not simply who can hit well for their position.
Oh and I think Alonso is the safest pick, he’s really the most polished hitter in the draft, just not a ton of potential
by adschofield on
May 6, 2008 10:51 PM EDT
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i'm just the opposite
i can see the point in wanting the best bat available, but if that bat is a first baseman he is probably not going to be much better than the average bat at first. where as if you get a 20 or 25 home run guy at short that is a significantly better bat than most people at that position. i would rather have a guy that is above average at his position even if he doesn’t hit quite as well as a guy that is just average at his position.
by fewgoodcards on
May 7, 2008 3:49 PM EDT
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I agree
People seem to think the ‘polished college bats” are the safe picks – b/c they see the gaudy stats – but really I see the guys who are legitimate middle-of-the-diamond players as the safe bets as they have so much less they need to do to become a quality big league player and they also have a little more upside in some cases if they do tap into their hitting potential
Guys like Jordan Danks for instance. Even if Danks’ power potential does not develop very well he can still be an average MLB CF for his glove, speed and solid average, OBP and doubles power. He doesn’t need to develop THAT MUCH (relative to others.. every draftee of course needs to develop considerably) to be good but if his power DOES develop he could be a 5-tool all-star.
Drew Stubbs fits in there too except substitute Danks’ power development for Stubbs’ contact skills development. Contact is a more serious issue for ones development of course but the overall point still stands.
If Rickie Weeks can play 2b, steal a few bases and hit line drives he can be in-his-prime Mark Grudz with maybe a few more walks.
The 1b/of/DHs walk a much finer line though. If they have any flaws at the plate – and most do – it becomes a much longer road to become good MLBers.
Contrary to perception I see sluggers as much more boom/bust than the “tools” guys. Some can turn into legit big-league sluggers but lots will just turn into “decent bat” kind of guys… Craig Wilsons or, even worse, Jeff Liefers and Joe Vitiellos.
My philosophy with college sluggers is only to take em if they are 5-star stud types. Just thinking about it, and not really researching in-depth, my impression is that the ones taken very high – the ones the scouts are sure can mash – do well but those a little further down are much more disappointing.
And Burrell, despite being a #1 overall pick has been “merely’ good but not great. If his skill set was just a little worse, if say his metal bat power didn’t move over to wood as well as it did, he would be a bench guy
by nms on
May 7, 2008 4:43 PM EDT
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Alden Carrithers?
.391/.569/.471
have watched him almost every game this year. kids a baller. he can put the ball exactly where he wants. so good. although he is short, he’ll be in the bigs.
by PhillyBruin on
May 6, 2008 11:40 PM EDT
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hes a good college player
but he isn’t going to be picked near 27 or 31.
I do get a good giggle out of the fact that, for all the would be “superstars” on tha UCLA team their best player is one they didn’t recruit out of HS and he went to UCSB for two years first instead
by nms on
May 6, 2008 11:51 PM EDT
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tell me about it
whats more amazing is that with all this talent they cant seem to win. i keep having faith and wasting my time by going to the games and they will not even make a regional. my best friend is a starter on the team and he cant seem to tell me their problem. he is as baffled as i am. oh well.
by PhillyBruin on
May 7, 2008 2:27 PM EDT
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Another thing to consider
when thinking about the schedule a player faces is that even if two players face the same team the quality of pitching can be night-and-day different. If the teams meet on a weekend the best pitchers will be thrown but if they meet Tues or Weds the worst starters will start… and the fact that the SoS ratings have a hard time comparing Western and East/Midwest teams
by nms on
May 7, 2008 5:37 PM EDT
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