Billy Butler optioned to AAA

by cool hand Charlie on May 29, 2008 7:56 PM EDT Comment 36 comments

fron Rotoworld:

The Royals have reportedly optioned Billy Butler to Triple-A and called up Mike Aviles to replace him.

Esteban German has 38 at-bats all year, so the last thing the Royals need is another middle infielder. Perhaps the plan is to get German and Aviles some time at DH. Ross Gload also figures to benefit from Butler's demotion. However, it's disturbing that the Royals have made no effort to pick up more first base/DH depth. ------------------------------- What do you guys think about this? Its obvious that he hasn't been hitting as well recently as he was in the first month of the season. But with the Royals already 10 games under .500, shouldn't their goal be to develop long term talent? Clearly, Butler has nothing left to prove in the minors at this point. And the best way for him to figure out MLB pitching is to see MLB pitching. Personally, I don't love this move, but maybe the Roayls know something I don't?

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confidence

hes going to be fine, but sometimes going back down, taking a breather away from the media and the expectations hitting some and getting confidence back is a good thing. I only think he will spend about a month or two down there before they bring him back up again.

"If you were a hot dog, would you eat yourself?"

by Trobone on May 29, 2008 8:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

+1

I haven’t had the time to watch games outside of the Tigers this year, but I wonder if he looks sluggish at the plate. I think sending him down to find his swing and get into a groove would be very useful.

by demondeaconsbaseball on May 29, 2008 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Long term I think this is a very beneficial move. Butler gets some needed playing time with less pressure.

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on May 29, 2008 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

There’s no doubt in my mind Butler is going to hit in the big leagues, but it’s always tough to face adversity for the first time. Butler has crushed the ball his whole life until the first two months of this year, and is now probably questioning himself and his abilities.

The move to Triple A will let him make adjustments and gain confidence for a move back up to KC shortly. I’m not worried at all about him.

by deezle on May 30, 2008 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's no reason he shouldn't be playing full time in the majors.

Butler had a 19:26 BB:K ratio in 186 ABs. He was making contact, and walking nearly as much as he struck out, which is amazing for a kid who just turned 22. Obviously he wasn’t overmatched by major league pitching.

The one thing that Billy wasn’t doing was hitting for power. Again, he’s (barely) 22, and hasn’t shown a lot of pop in the minors either. If the Royals expected him to come in and hit 25 homeruns, they’re stupid.

Sure, you could say more time in the minors will give him confidence, but what about getting yanked for not putting up all-star numbers? He might be looking over his shoulder, Jeff-Clement-style, every time he hits a little slump from now on. He’s not going to learn how to hit for power in the big leagues without-you know-being in the big leagues.

by DrunkIrish on May 30, 2008 12:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Seriously?

Have you seen him at the plate the last month? His line in May was .233/.305/.302. That’s unacceptable for a DH.

He looks like complete dogchit. He’s hit like five hard hit balls. Maybe. He has been downright horrible after a nice two weeks to open the season, and the team is actually finally starting to make the players take some accountability.

Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.

by doublestix on May 30, 2008 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

From the games I’ve seen, Butler’s been taking some bad hacks at balls. He’s had few lucky hits where he grounded the ball up the middle while the other team played him in a pull defense. That just shows that other teams are noticing his slump. When Billy’s on, he sprays the ball all directions, but the last few games he played, teams were playing him to pull which is not his style at all.

by The Gottfather on May 30, 2008 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

Good response. Spot on.

Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.

by doublestix on May 30, 2008 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You can say it's important that you've "seen" him...

but that’s not an argument that’s going to convince anyone. He put the ball into play 85% of the time in May, and walked 9 times in 86 ABs. If he’s “maybe” only hit five balls hard all month long, it’s pretty amazing he turned that into six doubles. The real reason his May looks bad is because only 27% of his balls in play have dropped for hits. He’s doing everything but hitting home runs, and again, he’s 22.

The Royals can jerk Butler around all they want, I don’t care. If you think he’s got something left to learn facing AAA pitchers, or that the club should be more concerned with wins and losses than developing their youngsters, that’s your mistake.

by DrunkIrish on May 30, 2008 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's a whole lot more to baseball than stats...

Maybe he doesn’t have anything more to learn against AAA pitchers, but he’s hurting the team and they have a chance to get a look at a player who led baseball in extra base hits while he’s figuring things out.

Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.

by doublestix on May 30, 2008 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's the thing...

what’s he going to figure out if he doesn’t have anything to learn at AAA? Very few young hitters set the league on fire their first time around.

You’ve obviously got your mind made up, but a more eloquent statement of my position can be found here, from Billy Beane:

“We’ve always been hesitant to just send guys down once they’ve gotten here when we feel they’re long-term answers…part of becoming a good major league player is being allowed to go through some struggles. Very few guys come up and hit their whole career.”

Of course, what could the Royals possibly learn from the way the A’s are run?

by DrunkIrish on May 30, 2008 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

Oh, well if the A’s think that way, then is must be right! What a silly argument.

by deezle on May 30, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're right

Let’s look to the Royals for player development tips.

by DrunkIrish on May 30, 2008 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well...

what is travis buck doing in AAA, then?

billy beane is smart, but not a god, and even if he is his practice doesn’t conform to what you diagnose on butler.

bottom line on prospects: their ‘fans’ seem to think each and every struggle is due to their organization. but they’re not automatons. Butler should be terrific, but he’s not hitting well and it’s reasonable for the organization to hit ‘reset’ and send him down.

by scooter on May 30, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What's Buck doing in AAA?

Getting the A’s an extra year of control over him, that’s what.

This stuff isn’t rocket science, people.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on May 30, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No

Buck was in AAA because he started the year playing like complete shit

by nyy601 on Jun 1, 2008 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

what are you talking about?

he started teh year in the Majors and is now back in the Majors, and was a very early call-up last year. has nothing to do with service time – why would you invent that?

buck was down because he was struggling, and is now back up because he started to hit.

simple.

by scooter on Jun 2, 2008 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're Right..

Butler doesn’t have anything left to learn in AAA, but he has to regain his confidence…For about a month now, Butler has been swinging at pitches that he previously never hacked at, and he’s just not squaring up on the ball. He’ll go down for a couple of weeks and come back and mash. Tell me, what kind of diastrous effects could sening Butler to AAA have?

by adschofield on May 30, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pop

Butler showed pop in the minors.

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on May 30, 2008 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

butler's hurting the royals?

Not pena, gathright, gload, etc.?...his numbers are barely worse than Teahen’s. Are they gonna send him to AAA too? Even dejesus slumping. Yeah, teahen and dejesus have slightly higher slugging (still sub .400), but a 3 game hit streak with just a homer and a double and he’d be even with the latter 2, and he is better by far than the first 3.

And sure, bad numbers for a DH. Who the else do the royals have who offers more?

by wobatus on May 30, 2008 6:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

wow, truth, +1

Go Pirates!!!

by cool hand Charlie on May 30, 2008 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Butler...

has options…Those players mentioned above don’t.

by adschofield on May 30, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree Butler shouldn't be sent

down but the facts are they only had 3 guys with options. Teehen, Butler and I can’t remember the other. They wanted to get a look at Aviles and Butler could probably use the fresh air. Hopefully he’ll be up for good here in a month. The problem with the Royals definitely isn’t Billy Butler and I dont understand why they treat him differently than Alex (let him work all last year) but their problem is the rest of the 25-40 roster. Have you ever seen such a mish mosh of identical and useless players? All of which have little to no pop.

Billy at worst will be Sean Casey jr.

by kcscoliny on May 30, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

its an options squeeze

he is the only good choice that has options.

by ZeppelinDZ on May 30, 2008 9:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

options

Wait, this move was because they were desperate to call up Aviles or were they trying to help Butler? They already have callaspo and german, how many back-up infielders do they need? Although he was tearing up AAA at age 27. The interleague dh thing makes some sense as well.

I don’t know that sending him down is that bad an idea, but he hasn’t been godawful, and plenty of their players have been. But my apologies because i thought he was sent down because they thought he was struggling in extremis, even though Gordon was worse last year at this time. I was being facetious about sending down the other guys, just saying he is hardly alone in a huge black hole of a line-up.

by wobatus on May 30, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Response

IMO, Butler was sent down for a variety of reasons. Most importantly, he lost his confidence and started doing things (swinging at bad pitches, becoming impatient) out of his character. He was also sent down because the Royals had the luxury of Butler’s options. It would obv. be different a different story if Butler was out of options

by adschofield on May 30, 2008 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Everyone is saying that.

I’ve read several times in this thread that Butler was “swinging at bad pitches”, and “impatient”. If that’s the case, why was he only striking out 15% of the time and walking 10% of the time this month? Those percentages were the same in April, and they’re both BETTER than his 2007 numbers.

I respect the fact that many of you are Royals fans and see a lot of games, but if something was actually happening, there would be a way to show that through the numbers. It’s easy to say “this guy was bad because I saw it!” but it’s not a very intelligent way to go about player evaluation. You may have saw a few bad games from Butler, but if he was really struggling with his pitch selection, it would show up in his plate discipline.

There are two conclusions here that make any sense. The Royals jumped the gun on sending Butler down, overreacting to his bad luck on balls in play, or they sent him down because he wasn’t hitting for power (which they shouldn’t have expected him to do anyway). Nobody’s given me any reason to believe in a third conclusion.

by DrunkIrish on May 30, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just to grind this point into the ground

Fangraphs records the percentage of balls outside of the strike zone that a hitter swings at (swinging at bad pitches), and the percentage of the time they actually swing at anything (impatience).

I’ll pick the best five hitters I can think of, and compare them to Butler. OOZ% is first, Swing% is second.

Billy B: 20.9%/44.1%
Pujols: 17.1%/36.7%
M. Cabrera: 30.6%/48.8%
Berkman: 18.0%/43.2%
Josh Hamilton: 32.0%/55.8%
Chipper: 14.3%/43.4%

Obviously, the problem with Billy Butler isn’t that he’s swinging at bad pitches, OR that he’s being impatient, as only Pujols and Chipper can claim to be better in those departments than Butler.

Does anybody have a REAL reason why the Royals were smart to send Butler down?

by DrunkIrish on May 30, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

right

Butler is slumping, but he is not over-matched. From what I can tell, he is not swinging at bad pitches.

by count sutton on May 30, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

because hes been really shitty

and AAA isn’t a death sentence?

Accidentally not thedude925 anymore. I do hate this new name.

by wildthang on May 30, 2008 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

fangraphs

who is making the call whether a pitch swung at would have been a ball or not.

by wobatus on May 30, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

exactly

does fangraphs take into account umpires different strkezone (which probably differs from game to game or if his chinese food has settled or not) or do they take an arbitrary batter zone?

Billy at worst will be Sean Casey jr.

by kcscoliny on May 31, 2008 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Uh huh.

Fangraphs gets this information from Baseball Info Solutions, who used to cater exclusively to major league teams, but has expanded their scope recently. I don’t know if there’s a more respected source of statistics out there. You might find it interesting (and educational) to see what kind of data is actually out there now, as it’s amazing what you can find now that wasn’t available five years ago.

It also doesn’t matter what pitches a particular umpire would call a ball or a strike. If Eric Gregg wants to call a ball five inches off the plate is a strike, that doesn’t mean a player’s wrong for laying off. If the ball’s in the strike zone (as defined by, you know, the rules of baseball) then it’s a strike. If it’s outside the zone, it’s defined as so.

by DrunkIrish on Jun 2, 2008 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

could the royals be sending Butler down due to the upcoming NL games where a DH isn’t necessary? If this is the case, then Butler can work on his stroke and be up in a month.

I am just wondering what happened to Ryan Shealy. He has really taken a step back. It is amazing the learning curve from the majors to the minors. You see it when an mlb star is on rehab in AAA where they just dominate. Its like they see the ball in slow motion. I hope that Butler goes down to AAA and hits .350 due to seeing the slower ball.

Of course, he is on my roster, so I need him to kick it up in AAA.

by BoristheSpider on May 30, 2008 11:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Buck

Travis was injured when sent out to AAA, as well as hitting abysmally and striking out a ton. In the interim Sweeney started playing better, Cust too, and they got Thomas, so Thomas DH’d and Cust played outfield. Buck will be back. It was more a question of his injury and a logjam than anything.

by wobatus on May 30, 2008 12:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs