question about ground ball pitchers
So my question is this:
Do ground ball pitchers generally have longer careers than guys who get by on "stuff"?
The guys that I can think of right now are Brandon Webb and Chien-Ming Wang.
I know that Derek Lowe has lasted a while and he is an extreme ground ball pitcher. So, does anyone have any opinions on if a GB pitcher can have longer effective careers than normal?
Thanks for all the input.
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I would say no
Here’s why. A groundball pitcher tends to throw with less velocity, thus their talent level is not at the level of the strikeout guys. The could find themselves out of a job alot sooner than a guy with better stuff. Steve Carlton, Nolan Ryan and Clemens sure had long careers as strikeout kings.
This wouldn’t apply to Webb or Wang, as each has excellent stuff.
by batonball on May 16, 2008 9:13 AM EDT 0 recs
questions
so do Webb/Wang use their “excellent” stuff in a different way than a K pitcher uses his stuff? Like do they use it to try and create contact for easy outs rather than going for K’s? I know Webb’s best pitch is supposed to be a sinker. Will that pitch decline on him as he loses velocity(as he gets older)?
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by cool hand Charlie on
May 16, 2008 9:58 AM EDT
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It's not just velocity that drops
When a pitcher ages, I’m pretty sure that their rotation also decreases. This would make sense from a physiological perspective, and with all the new information that’s available out there, I’m sure we’ll be able to officially confirm this in 5 – 10 years. My theory is that as the pitcher ages, he’s not able to grip the ball as tightly, and thus not able to get as much rotation on the pitch, so the sinker sinks less and becomes less effective.
With secondary pitches, the loss of fastball velocity is a much bigger issue because part of the reason the secondary pitch is good is because of the velocity separation from the fastball. Less separation = breaking pitch becomes easier to hit. Case in point #1 is Barry Zito.
In terms of length of career, my observation has been that guys with great stuff tend to last the longest (other than knuckleballers, who can last forever simply because the pitch puts less strain on a guy’s shoulders, hands and wrists than a fastball). A guy with great stuff who loses it still drops to average level, and has the opportunity to reinvent themselves as a finesse pitcher. A finesse pitcher or sinkerballer who loses their stuff generally doesn’t have the same opportunity, because they then have so little velocity that even pitches with great movement are hittable. Yes, there are exceptions (like Jamie Moyer), but they’re pretty rare.
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by Brickhaus on
May 16, 2008 11:45 AM EDT
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Bad theory
So a guy that is 32 years old has a weaker grip than when he was 25? No way. That theory just makes no sense. How many older (and by older I mean at least 50+ age) men have grips like vices? A ton. Reason pitchers lose stuff – velocity and spin is simply because they can’t bring it like they could when they were younger. Most pitchers rely on elasticity to coil up and unload towards the plate. As you get older, you lose some of that flexible and ta-dah, your stuff isn’t quite effective. Guys who can maintain this edge (whether through diet, exercise, etc) remain just fine in their later years – Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, and anyone else over 30 who still has/had solid success.
As far as the original post, I think it helps being a groundball pitcher versus a flyball pitcher. There are a lot less holes or potential for damage to the score when the ball can be kept on the ground. Not sure that you’ll end up with a longer career, but it should make you more consistent from outing to outing.
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by RedHopeful on
May 17, 2008 3:24 AM EDT
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Wang
Wang throws 95 mph. I wouldn’t call that ‘less velocity’.
by sabernar on
May 17, 2008 12:09 AM EDT
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who is implying that Webb has less stuff than others? And have they watched him?
by pedrophile on May 16, 2008 10:11 PM EDT 0 recs
Wang and Webb
that’s why I said any theory of velocity wouldn’t apply to them, as they both are blessed with excellent stuff. Barring injury both should have long careers.
by batonball on
May 17, 2008 12:25 PM EDT
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Not sure it matters
Everyone’s bodies are different and pitchers all have to refine their game as they get older. Also, the questions cannot be answered without a certain amount of context. Roy Halladay has had his injury issues due to being overworked but is an extreme groundball pitcher who does not get by with strikeouts.
Derek Lowe also spent a good part of his career as a reliever, potentially saving his arm some extra wear and tear.
by count sutton on May 18, 2008 2:41 PM EDT 0 recs




