Discussion Question: Jordan Schafer
Discussion Question for you:
Should Jordan Schafer's suspension for using human growth hormone hurt his prospect status, and if so, by how much? I gave him a Grade B+ in the book. Should I reduce that?
UPDATE: My Take
Officially I'm reducing him from Grade B+ to Grade B, looking at the HGH controversy as akin to an somewhat significant injury that keeps him out of 50 games. At this point, we simply don't have any idea how much, or how little, HGH was responsible for his impressive performance last year. Maybe it was a big factor, maybe it did nothing at all. NO ONE KNOWS. We have to see what happens when he comes back, how he adjusts, as much emotionally and psychologically to the scrutiny as anything.
0 recs |
69
comments
Comments
Well
It isn't the minorleagueball.com community's prospect book. Who are we to say?
Chad Tracy is the Swine King.
by PujolsJunkie on Apr 9, 2008 4:12 PM EDT 0 recs
Prospect Status
I said as much in one of the journals but I'll repeat it here:
At this point, scouts have to wonder what part of his tools were aided by HGH and what weren't. I think his recent progress is sort of out the window and he'll have to prove himself all over again.
by Lunkwill Fook on Apr 9, 2008 4:13 PM EDT 0 recs
No
By being a male nurse there's no proof that it actually improves a players performance on the field.
by Jay212033 on Apr 9, 2008 4:18 PM EDT 0 recs
Male nurse
If you were a female nurse, what would your opinion be?
by Lunkwill Fook on
Apr 9, 2008 4:24 PM EDT
up
0 recs
obviously this question opens a can of worms
but this is really the point. it seems like hgh doesn't really do anything for an athlete. maybe there was some kind of placebo effect (or maybe hgh actually does do something) but until we know for sure, i think the grade has to stay the same. of course, it ain't my grade.
somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.
by larry on
Apr 9, 2008 4:25 PM EDT
up
0 recs
HGH
.... Really? It's a banned substance in almost every sport. Scientists may be debating its positive results but to say it DEFINITIVELY does nothing... I mean, do you think he doesn't deserve a suspension at all?
by Lunkwill Fook on
Apr 9, 2008 4:27 PM EDT
up
0 recs
i think my words were sufficiently indefinite.
"seems"? "maybe"?
if it's against the rules, he deserves to be suspended. that much should be obvious. we're debating the grade. implicit in that is whether he actually benefited from the use of hgh. since that's a rather open question - especially considering we don't know when he was using it - i think the grade should stay the same.
somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.
by larry on
Apr 9, 2008 4:37 PM EDT
up
0 recs
hampsters
There's as much evidence that eating live hampsters will improve your athletic performance as there is that HGH will.
He'll be suspended because he broke the (stupid*) rules, but the only reason I would see to downgrade him is because of the lost development time. The organization still seems to be behind him 100%.
by mraver on
Apr 10, 2008 10:37 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Live hamsters
I ate one yesterday. I mean, seriously, it can only help, right?
by Lunkwill Fook on
Apr 10, 2008 11:00 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Specious argument
We can theorize a reasonable pathway by which HGH may be able to assist with athletic performance. We cannot theorize a reasonable way by which hampsters will help.
Come on now.....
by siddfynch on
Apr 10, 2008 12:07 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Hamsters
HAVE YOU TESTED THE CHEMICAL COMPOSITION OF HAMSTERS? THEY COULD BE FILLED VITAL....
I think the hamster energy is getting to my brain....
by Lunkwill Fook on
Apr 10, 2008 12:39 PM EDT
up
0 recs
What are you trying to say here?
Is Schafer a male nurse? Are you? Does one of you being a male nurse have some bearing on evaluating the power of HGH tests to detect an effect on baseball performance? Do they teach this in nursing school? Please help.
by siddfynch on
Apr 10, 2008 12:44 AM EDT
up
0 recs
I think you should reduce the ranking----his improvement was at least partially due to the HGH, and without it he just becomes another mid-level prospect IMO. He obviously knew his numbers werent good enough to warrent him being a top level prospect this year, so apparently out of desperation he resorted to cheating and using HGH.
I think this incident will follow him throughout his career, and will now put even more pressure on him to perform without the benefit of HGH---he knows now that EVERYONE will be watching him------and thats not a good thing as far as trying to improve your performance and get to the big show-----its just an added pressure that he or anyone else doesnt need!! Very stupid thing to do----and now he knows it!!
by dancer on Apr 9, 2008 4:19 PM EDT 0 recs
RE
why reduce is now? just wait to see what he does when he comes back.
he should have been an A- anyway after leading the minors in hits last y ear. The bottom line is we dont know how much HGH helps guys so just wait and see what happens when he comes back
http://www.21nunder.blogspot.com/
by jsmall404 on
Apr 9, 2008 5:42 PM EDT
up
0 recs
I call BS
"his improvement was at least partially due to the HGH"
Prove it. With Science. Prove that there is any reason for me to think HGH had anything to do with his improvement in performance. I dare you.
by mraver on
Apr 10, 2008 10:38 AM EDT
up
0 recs
you dare him?
These are a few of the basics that can easily be found on wikipedia:
Growth hormone (GH) is a hormone that stimulates growth and cell reproduction.......Effects of growth hormone on the tissues of the body can generally be described as anabolic (building up).....Increases muscle mass through the sarcomere hyperplasia
Given this very basic info about HGH, how can it be argued that he wasn't receiving a benefit from it's use? My guess is that, regardless of all of this uninformed back and forth speculation, most of us expect his performance to drop across the board. Trouble is, a small decrease in his performance quickly puts him in the "average" category. And that's really the central question- do you think he can maintain his performance without PED's? I'm guessing no.
by my dixie wrecked on
Apr 10, 2008 11:44 AM EDT
up
0 recs
I stopped reading when you cited Wikipedia..
Remember: baseball guys... baseball...
by Metty5 on
Apr 10, 2008 1:13 PM EDT
up
0 recs
That's silly
Wikipedia has (I think... memory is hazy on the exact number) 80% accuracy, which is approximately equal in accuracy to published encyclopedias. The guy did a quick search -- if the comments are cited, they tend to be cited to academic journals. Rather than stop reading and throw out his argument based on (faulty) common perceptions of wikipedia, why not actually see if he's discreditable by seeing if the article is properly cited?
You're a baseball man. Why use the numbers in baseball, and then throw them out the window in real life?
by Alon on
Apr 11, 2008 7:53 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Question
Did you find that stat (80%) on Wikipedia? ;)
by King Billy Royal on
Apr 13, 2008 1:12 PM EDT
up
0 recs
If there is no scientific evidence
that HGH does not have some positive effect on the body, then why take it? You know it's a banned substance and have no hard evidence that it will help you. What's even the point of taking it if that's the case.
The Eagle has landed....
by Lonerangers on
Apr 10, 2008 11:46 AM EDT
up
0 recs
...
This is the same logic that makes people think corking a bat will help you hit the ball further.
by mraver on
Apr 10, 2008 9:01 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Time frame
I would reserve judgement until some concrete news can be gathered upon when and how long he used HGH. Was he using it as a refresher for extensive workouts in attempt to make the opening day roster? did it start before his metoric rise before the beginnig on last year?
I would consider him a B+ with a major asterick that would require him to produce at equal or close toequal levels upon his return.
by laxtonto on Apr 9, 2008 4:23 PM EDT 0 recs
Not much..
I own Schafer for a Keeper team and always thought he was overrated. That said he is a defensive super star. I don't think he was ever expected to hit for much power (maybe 15, 20 HR) and I'm not sure HGH effects BAVG.
I think you should with hold judgment and see what he does for the other 100 games.
Remember: baseball guys... baseball...
by Metty5 on Apr 9, 2008 4:25 PM EDT 0 recs
Parish
It's simply too early to tell.
I do not think you can even begin to consider a change until you know when he took it. Was it all last year? Then, I have to consider the placebo effect, despite the evidence that HGH doesn't really do anything. He definitely plummets in the "makeup" category, though.
by parish on Apr 9, 2008 4:42 PM EDT 0 recs
Some comments
Witch-hunt? If this was Joba and/or a Dominican getting popped, there would be a witch-hunt. One is a Yankee and one, would be a foreigner. If Schafer bounces back, this will be a blip on his career.
IMHO, HGH and other performance enhancing drugs helps you get stronger and does helps you hit the ball harder. It doesn't mean you are going to be popping 25 home runs if you are a singles guy, but more balls you hit get past the infielders. It means you can drive the ball a bit farther, hitting for more extra-base power and generating more productivity.
A 'C' would be appropriate, considering his breakout season may have been 'enhanced.'
by BBFan1 on Apr 9, 2008 5:06 PM EDT 0 recs
The effects of HGH
You said, "IMHO, HGH and other performance enhancing drugs helps you get stronger and does helps you hit the ball harder." Look, whether or not a drug helps you get stronger isn't a matter of opinion; it's an empirically verifiable hypothesis. And the scientific studies that have been done do not support that hypothesis. As far as we know, HGH does not make you stronger. It makes you heal faster. It's really expensive. It's associated with anabolic steroids because of the Mitchell report, not because they both do the same thing.
http://www.chop-n-change.com
by alexwithclass on
Apr 9, 2008 5:46 PM EDT
up
1 recs
"makes you heal faster..."
You don't see the benefit of that?! What do you think happens when you work out?
by my dixie wrecked on
Apr 10, 2008 12:05 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Personally....
If I had him at a B+, I would knock him down to a B. We don't know when he started taking HGH, and even if he was taking it last year, there are no real proven advantages to taking it (although, I am sure a lot of people who have used it would swear by it, Sly Stallone for one).
But also, you have to question his character to some degree. His decision making ability is now something you worry about. When grading a prospect, the grade shouldn't just be talent-driven, but also the likelihood of someone reaching the majors and being an effective player. When players show signs of poor decision making, I think you have to take that into account. I did with Elijah Dukes (not that Schafer and Dukes are comparable in their mistakes, it's just an example).
So, my opinion is that he deserves a slight hit, but as long as he produces this season when he returns and has no more poor decisions, this shouldn't affect him at all.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on Apr 9, 2008 5:10 PM EDT 0 recs
only to the extent...
that missing roughly a third of the season may hurt his development.
We don't "know" HGH doesn't help, just as we don't "know" global warming exists. But all the available evidence suggests that it (HGH, not global warming)makes your muscles larger but weaker, and has no effects that will help you hit, throw, or catch a baseball or run the bases. Getting off the stuff, if it has any effect at all (which it likely won't), should only make him better.
But not being able to play competitively for fifty games at this point in his career seems like a slight problem. Don't know if it's enough to drop him to a B, though...
by billp on Apr 9, 2008 5:22 PM EDT 0 recs
Global warming
On the other hand, if we received evidence that Jordan Schafer was causing global warming, I'd say you'd have to bump him down to C-.
http://www.chop-n-change.com
by alexwithclass on
Apr 9, 2008 5:47 PM EDT
up
0 recs
it just might be...
IMO, this just might be the post of this post! nicely done alexwithclass...
Support the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society by supporting my endurance training through Team In Training! http://www.active.com/donate/tntmn/tntmnDBimber
by dbimberg on
Apr 10, 2008 10:40 AM EDT
up
0 recs
RE
You (and everyone) siad HGH helps you get bigger and stronger - which it does. However, Schafer is a pretty small guy. So obviously it hasnt helped him get better and stronger. It does not help your hand eye coordination and ability to make contact (which is what he does well) he sitll hits for little power so there is no evidence that HGH helped him.
If he hit 25 HR last year and gained 15 pounds I think that would be more daming evidence.
Why not just wait and see what he does when he comes back?
http://www.21nunder.blogspot.com/
by jsmall404 on Apr 9, 2008 5:49 PM EDT 0 recs
So what if he is small?
Obviously he isn't going to look like Jose Canseco or Mark McGwire, but even if he is a runt, doesn't mean he can't be jacked like any other possible PED user.
by BBFan1 on
Apr 9, 2008 6:14 PM EDT
up
0 recs
160 to 200lbs
The reports in Atlanta are that he was around 160 at the beginning of 2006 and know sits around 200lbs. Obviously alot of that might be due to just ol' natural growth, but that does suggest that his body has grown at a pretty large rate. Personally I think that he belongs in the C+ range, I mean the kid has had one great year that was just prior to being found out as an HGH user and now we have some serious character concerns.
by ATLTribefan on
Apr 9, 2008 9:00 PM EDT
up
0 recs
The misconception
is that it's going to be stars who morph into superstars by using PEDs, and that's the only motivation. But also motivated would be late 20s 4A guys looking for a couple years of six-figure paychecks, fringe prospects looking to become major prospects -- basically any ballplayer wanting to better his prospect standing or his earning potential. Which is just about every ballplayer out there, basically
by Flynn Blake on
Apr 9, 2008 11:24 PM EDT
up
0 recs
HGH
Not nearly as effective as steroids from what I've read. I think you need to dock him a bit, but only a bit as far as prospect status. He's still a very promising young player.
I'm looking for a few knowledgeable fans who'd like to join me on Baseball Mastermind, whether you're a scout, a sabermetrician, a journalist or just a die-hard fan. Sign up for an account on BM today.
by Baseball Mastermind on Apr 9, 2008 5:59 PM EDT 0 recs
B- for me
He has a lot to prove. If he hits like he did last year after he comes back then bump it back up but if he hits like he did in 2006 he's no better than a 4th outfielder.
by Bravesin07 on Apr 9, 2008 6:16 PM EDT 0 recs
Yes
Just as you reduce a grade for injury uncertainty, you need to reduce it for this.
by BlackOps on Apr 9, 2008 6:18 PM EDT 0 recs
Fans won't make him forget
They'll be a constant reminder of his mistake. Yes he's young but a lot of fans are not forgivable (especially ones from opposing teams). It'll be interesting to see how he bounces back mentally and where the suspension takes him physically.
I think his prospect status does go down a notch as value to other teams and as a prospect that is not playing, he has less value. Otherwise you can't change much based on skill set, we'll all have to wait and see how this pans out.
by achengy on Apr 9, 2008 9:14 PM EDT 0 recs
yeah
i always hear fans going after guys like juan rincon, matt lawton, guillermo mota, rafael betancourt, and mike morse. absolutely merciless.
this isn't barry bonds or jason giambi we're talking about. about 2% of fans will be aware that he was ever suspended if he makes the big leagues.
somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.
by larry on
Apr 10, 2008 10:48 AM EDT
up
0 recs
hmmm
I'd knock it down to C+/B-.
In a best case scenerio I'd knock his grade down by one from B+ to B on "makup issues," because of this incident. I'd knock it down once more because I'm going to assume HGH at least helped in some sense, whether real or placebo effect. and then I'd consider moving it down a further half grade for now because I'm not sure how he will respond to this incident, once he's served his suspension. Will he come back with a vengence? Or is this the last we hear of him being a top prospect?
by bk11 on Apr 9, 2008 9:35 PM EDT 0 recs
Regarding "no proof that HGH helps"
Pops up reliably in such discussions, and has already come up here.
The studies of HGH and performance have not come even close to being able to definitively "prove" that HGH doesn't have an ability to improve the game of baseball players, especially when administered with other treatments (e.g., steroids, muscle-building programs, etc.).
Right now, you have absence of proof. That is not the same as proof of absence. The studies so far have been inadequate to claim this proof of absence.
by siddfynch on Apr 10, 2008 12:41 AM EDT 0 recs
+1
well said, as were your other comments in this thread.
+1 to the point by billip about developmental time lost -- that's my biggest concern as well.
HGH almost certainly helps (which is why so many people risk it), but how much is unclear. i think Schafer's a plenty legit prospect without the HGH, but the uncertainty makes me think knocking him down to a B is appropriate, especially with the developmental time thrown in.
personally, i don't think there's any character concern here. i suppose the way to formulate the situation into something psychological that i would LEGITIMATELY worry about is that people who use PEDs are people who like to take shortcuts rather than put in all the tough work that's necessary to be elite, and that, in turn, Schafer's work ethic is in question.
however, my general experience with athletes who've experimented with PEDs is that the ones who "resort" to illegitimate help do so to SUPPLEMENT their extremely hard work ethic. in fact, the desire to cheat comes from their intense competitive drive, and, if anything, these people have the most rigorous practice habits (a la Clemens, as a professional and widely known example of what i'm talking about). of course, this is just an anecdotal generalization -- it may not be true, period, let alone true for Schafer in particular. but it's just my observation, and why i wouldn't worry about his work ethic.
by bleedjaxblue on
Apr 10, 2008 2:22 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Proof of absence
You can't prove a negative. It's impossible to prove that something has no effect, ever. But it's not like there's an absence of data -- scientific studies have been done, and their conclusions don't remotely support the claim that HGH makes you stronger or a better baseball player. If you're going to make that claim, the onus is on you to prove it.
http://www.chop-n-change.com
by alexwithclass on
Apr 10, 2008 8:41 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Re: "Scientific studies have been done"
No, they haven't - not the kind that would solidly test whether a 20-something male could treat himself with HGH in a way that could lead to improved performance on the baseball field. Medical studies of the effects of HGH on humans have indeed been done, but they provide very poor insight into the situatoion here.
Find me a study in which groups of young males were given different treatments of HGH, then grouped in categories and tested for everything from arm strength to reaction time to a pitched ball to foot speed to leaping ability to ......you get the idea. B.better yet, find me one study that used a control and treatment to examine ANY of these variables in a group of young men age 20-30.
And please, don't cite the tired old THT or BTF articles that examine strength or stamina in a group of middle-aged people who were given a pretty simplistic treatment schedule.
by siddfynch on
Apr 10, 2008 11:57 AM EDT
up
0 recs
This is true
And irrelevant. Because what people are claiming is that HGH has "definitely improved his performance" and referring to it as a "performance enhancing drug" and crap like there when there's no basis for it. How can you call it a PED when there's no evidence to suggest it enhances performance?! it's asinine.
There is NO empirical evidence to suggest that HGH does anything to improve performance in athletics. Frankly, it seems to me like a nice way for "trainers" to make an extra buck selling an expensive supplement to desperate athletes getting off on a placebo effect.
The only way this effects Schafer's on-the-field performance is psychologically; if he believes his success was due to HGH, then he very well might start to suck. If he gets distracted by cat-calling fans and the like, his performance could suffer. But it'll basically be a confidence issue. If he retains confidence in himself, then I think he'll be fine.
But people really need to stop thinking of HGH in the same context as steroids.
Personally, I blame the media (ESPN especially, just 'cause they represent everything that's wrong with sports) for ignoring the science and just reporting stuff to egg on the steroids issue. (Example: have you heard any reports about how, since MLB instituted it's testing program, the run scoring environment didn't really change? Or how about how much larger the effect of "juiced" balls in the early 2000's was than any steroid effect measured by any standard?) But this community is supposed to be smarter (or at least better-informed) than your average ESPN-watching slob.
HGH is NOT a performance enhancing drug, not any more aspirin is. What it is is a dangerous stubstance that young people might want to use because they hear ESPN reporting how it made some kid an uber-prospect all on it's own.
I think this has gone on long enough!
by mraver on
Apr 10, 2008 10:51 AM EDT
up
0 recs
HGH
There's a difference between saying HGH has never been PROVEN to affect an athlete and saying HGH is no worse than aspirin. I think you're sipping an entirely different kind of Kool-Aid.
by Lunkwill Fook on
Apr 10, 2008 10:59 AM EDT
up
0 recs
"no worse than aspirin"
Stop putting words into my mouth.
I said:
"HGH is NOT a performance enhancing drug, not any more aspirin is."
Given the context of what I had said above, I'm clearly referring to it's proven benefits to baseball players (ie, none). It's obviously a dangerous substance that can have major ramifications to ones health if abused.
Which is why it's all the more important to emphasis that there is no evidence to suggest that there are benefits to using it for baseball players!
by mraver on
Apr 10, 2008 1:02 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Huh?
I may have paraphrased but you EQUATED HGH TO ASPIRIN. Man, seriously.
And, despite the fact you seem entirely DEAF to any logical reasoning, saying there is no evidence to suggest there are benefits is NOT the same as saying there IS evidence that it DOESN'T benefit.
by Lunkwill Fook on
Apr 10, 2008 1:09 PM EDT
up
0 recs
No, I didn't
I equated it's baseball-ability-enhance effects to those of aspirin.
And I never categorically said that it doesn't. I said there's no reason to think it does.
And I think I'm done responding to you.
by mraver on
Apr 10, 2008 9:03 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Not irrelevent
You may never be able to prove a negative, but you need negative results from a study that is at least designed specifically to test your hypothesis before concluding there is no effect. I've been following your posts in this thread, and I think it's time to ask you to cite the studies that you say are so difinitive. As of 6 months ago, I am aware of none that I would call difinitive to test the hyptheses that 1) HGH, taken alone or in combination with a specialized training regimen, cannot help men in the 20's add speed, strength, recovery time, or stamina, and 2) HGH, when taken alone or in combination with other treatments, does not help men in their 20's increase reaction time, eyesight, hand-eye coordination, or other skills that help in the game of baseball.
Don't misininterpret me as saying HGH helps.....but don't believe the crappy, off-point studies out there so far that don't come close to resolving the issue.
by siddfynch on
Apr 10, 2008 12:04 PM EDT
up
0 recs
"I think it's time to ask you to cite the studies that you say are so difinitive."
Here is a link to the discussion over at sabernomics.com about the stuff. Here are some specific links to studies and such.
Now, please provide one (not 4, just 1) suggesting that there are some links between HGH and increased performance in baseball.
by mraver on
Apr 10, 2008 1:08 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Links
http://medical.presslib.com/sports-medicine/810514.htm
There you go.
By the way, each one of your links says it is "uncertain" whether there are any effects. Unlike you, of course, who swears that there's ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT OMG WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
by Lunkwill Fook on
Apr 10, 2008 1:21 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Eye sight
Im suprised that no one has mentioned the improvement HGH has on eye sight and the profound help above average eye sight has been linked to batting average and contact rate
by laxtonto on
Apr 10, 2008 3:56 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Eye sight
Well, yes, someone has - it's in my point #2, above. It's a known palliative for glaucoma, though its reasons for working are not well understood.....leading to questions about whether it can also benefit eyesight in other applications.
by siddfynch on
Apr 11, 2008 12:10 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Are you kidding me?
Apparently, I lied above when I said I was done responding to you.
That link you just posted is an article by a maker of HGH! Are you seriously going to take the assertions of these guys (which go no further than to say that, theoretically, baseball players in their 30s or 40s may benefit from using HGH) over the empirical studies I linked above?
I'm flabbergasted that you'd even post something like that!
by mraver on
Apr 10, 2008 9:08 PM EDT
up
0 recs
To further emphasis
That link above from "Lunkwill Fook" ISN'T TO A STUDY. It's a press release from an HGH manufacturer saying "nuh uh!" in response to a Stanford study that failed to find a link between HGH and enhanced performance.
by mraver on
Apr 10, 2008 9:11 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Humerous
In this same chain, you also fail to LINK TO A STUDY when challenged...instead, you link to blogs, mostly, and to one overview paper that says quite clearly "...... the scientific literature has not produced compelling results on its efficacy." What that means is that we just can't know yet whether it helps or not.
Why argue anything different? What little examination has happened thus far is unable to adequately address the issue.
by siddfynch on
Apr 11, 2008 12:08 AM EDT
up
0 recs
What are you talking about?
I linked four studies (two full-text, two abstracts, since the full studies are gated), as well as a blog with extensive discussion on the topic. I linked the blog because there's a lot of good further reading there, I didn't cite it as evidence.
As for their results, first study:
"Results: We found no effect of the low or high dosages of GH on maximum oxygen uptake during exercise (mean ± SE for placebo, 45.2 ± 1.6 to 45.2 ± 2.1 ml/kg·min; GH low dose, 42.8 ± 1.6 to 42.8 ± 1.6 ml/kg·min; GH high dose, 44.8 ± 3.4 to 44.8 ± 2.2 ml/kg·min; not significant by two-way ANOVA). Neither was there any effect on maximum achieved power output during exercise or on blood pressure, heart rate, or the electrocardiographic ST level at rest or during exercise. GH significantly increased total body weight (P = 0.028), an effect predominantly ascribed to fluid retention (increased extracellular water volume), whereas muscle mass (as indicated by intracellular water volume) did not change. However, changes in the latter correlated to changes in physical performance, possibly due to different training efforts."
2nd study [abstract only]:
"Conclusions This is, to our knowledge, the first placebo-controlled trial to show the effects of supraphysiological GH doses on body composition and IGF-I levels in physically active and healthy individuals of both genders; the results indicate limited anabolic effects of GH with these supraphysiological doses. The role of GH as an effective anabolic doping agent is questioned." (emphasis added)
3rd study [abstract only](apparently the only one you noticed):
"Despite the lack of compelling data, GH seems to have developed a reputation among athletes for enhancing performance. The detection of illegal doping with GH has been the focus of a concerted international effort by the International Olympic Committee. A number of promising detection techniques may allow the detection of illicit GH use. This review on GH as an ergogenic aid includes a discussion of the basic physiology of GH and its actions, the accepted medical indications for its use, the results of scientific studies that assess whether it improves exercise performance or work capacity, and the scientific techniques under development to detect ergogenics with strong abuse potential."
Btw, did you notice the 5 linked articles on the right-hand side of the page?
4th study:
"Studies that have followed the 1990 report by Rudman et al. confirm the effects of growth hormone on body composition but do not show improvement in function. In contrast, resistance training improves muscle strength and function, indicating that real effort is beneficial. There is no current "magic-bullet" medication that retards or reverses aging. It remains to be determined whether growth hormone secretagogues that consistently increase endogenous production of growth hormone are beneficial in the elderly. Antiaging therapy with growth hormone has not yet been proved effective according to objective outcome criteria."
Please, please, at least click on the links I provide if you're going to complain about their content.
by mraver on
Apr 11, 2008 12:57 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Yeah
Because they're really concerned about losing that "superstar athlete using HGH as PEDs" market share.
You still refuse to admit what EVERYONE ELSE in this thread is saying which is that NONE of your studies claim there is NO EFFECT. They just claim that there is no proof that there IS an effect. But apparently, you lack an inability to comprehend text.
hahahah, it's interesting that you say "I'm done replying to you" when you're clearly the one spouting fanboi garbage. But I, literally, am done speaking with a person that simply cannot, out of blind loyalty, admit any falacies in his argument. Bye now!
by Lunkwill Fook on
Apr 11, 2008 8:55 AM EDT
up
0 recs
As John says, "No one knows"
You're right, the studies don't resolve the issue. And, as John Sickels said in the intro, "No one knows." But if you listen to sportscasters, read sports writers, and listen to a lot of the posters on boards like these, you'd think that steroids and HGH have the exact same effect on ballplayers, when they don't at all: steroids increase muscle mass and markedly improve performance; the effect of HGH on performance isn't remotely known.
Therefore, alleging that Jordan's great year in 2007 is a result of HGH is at best an unsubstantiated guess.
http://www.chop-n-change.com
by alexwithclass on
Apr 10, 2008 4:11 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Yes
Hence the need to reevaluate his talent level. No one is saying he isn't as good as he was last season. What they're saying is now they have to make SURE that that is true.
by Lunkwill Fook on
Apr 11, 2008 8:52 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Incidentally, I agree with re-grade, if...
If MLB is right and Schafer took HGH, I think he deserves to be downgraded if for nothing else than hugely bad judgment. But much as we don't know if HGH has any effect, we also don't know quite what Schafer did or how MLB knows. ESPN reported that they obtained the information from another known user, whose credibility may or may not be questionable. There's no test, of course, which makes it difficult to have hard proof. And his father is nearly giving himself spasms trying to hint to the press that there's more to the story, which it sounds like he believes is of an exculpatory or mitigating nature, without breaking MLB's gag.
So I think you have to downgrade him given what we know now. But you also have to realize that just as we don't know what is the effect of HGH, we also don't really know how they even know he took it.
http://www.chop-n-change.com
by alexwithclass on
Apr 11, 2008 10:25 AM EDT
up
0 recs
I think the grade should at least be in question...
Having been burned many times by overvaluing a breakout performance, I was somewhat skeptical about Schafer's arrival last year and a positive HGH test would seem to indicate that his breakout could be partially due to HGH usage. That being said, I might have argued that Schafer was an "A" prospect defensively, but a "C+/B-" prospect with the bat. I guess maybe his "lightning quick" first step could have been supplemented by HGH and maybe he doesn't have 20 HR power, but we don't know. I guess if you thought he was a B+ prospect based upon what you knew about him, then I might drop his grade to a B, or maybe even a B- if you think that his breakout season could have been influenced by PEDs, but leave it close at a B+ if you think his particular skill set would not benefit from HGH use.
by coochorama on Apr 10, 2008 1:11 AM EDT 0 recs
Why reduce his grade?
He can just find another source and keep taking it since MLB doesn't test for it anyway. Question: How does the Int'l Olympic Committee test for HGH but baseball keeps saying there isn't a reliable test? Sounds like spin from MLB and the MLBPA. Anyone have the answer?
by The Colonel on Apr 10, 2008 2:13 AM EDT 0 recs
Olympic Testing
The difference is Olympic testing can be a joke sometimes. In the Olympics (and other sports like the Tour de France), they assume guilt before innocence. There are tests that don't test for drugs (because, like HGH, there are chemicals that can work undetected) but for potential masking agents. The problem is, a lot of these "masking agents" are stuff that people would use normally so the athletes have to be SUPER paranoid about what they take, however innocent it might be, in order to not test "positive".
It's a hyper paranoid world and I'm glad MLB isn't going there. Look at the guy who should have won the Tour de France last year. Michael Rasmussen never tested for ANYTHING but he missed a test in June, saying he was in Mexico at the time and ONE guy said "Oh, wait, I think I saw him in Italy at the time" and BAM he was kicked out. It's just wrong.
by Lunkwill Fook on
Apr 10, 2008 10:22 AM EDT
up
0 recs
re: reserve judgment for now/MLB is full of it
let's see what Jordan does after he returns.
MLB is a totally hypocritcal.
They should either stop the suspensions all together, or enforce it. Jose Guillen being allowed to play is abusrd. So honestly, until they stop showing favortism, I don't give a darn about this.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Apr 10, 2008 8:58 AM EDT 0 recs
Response
It's not favortism. It's called a union. Major league baseball players belong to one. Minor league baseball players (of which Jordan Schafer is one until he is placed on the 40 man roster) do not.
by mrkupe on
Apr 10, 2008 12:27 PM EDT
up
0 recs
re: MLB "policy"
what I meant above is that they should enforce it for EVERYONE, stars and minor leaguers alike.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
by feslenraster on Apr 10, 2008 8:59 AM EDT 0 recs
Bad!!!
That’s disappointing to hear that Schafer used HGH, he knows he is better than that. But it’s impossible to be a fan of sports these days and not be aware of the role that steroids play in the lives of athletes. If we listen to the athletes themselves, only a few rogue players get sucked up in the juice. But any rational human knows that the truth is something completely different. But it seems that there is a vast conspiracy of silence that allows this to go on in professional and amateur sports. I think the book—Steroid Nation tells everything.
by dftyvvb on Apr 17, 2008 7:35 AM EDT 0 recs


