Giants Bullpen Battle

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 9, 2008 1:55 AM EST Comment 39 comments

The battle for positions in the Giants bullpen is heating up and getting interesting. So far, there have been 3 significant events shaping the bullpen:

The emergence of Merkin Valdez as a potential dominant 7'th inning/setup/closer-in-waiting. I assume Valdez needs no introduction to this crowd. He's coming off TJ surgery and is reportedly hitting 96 MPH with consistency so far. Surprisingly, he has also displayed a decent slider and changeup which allowed him to freeze 3 batters in an inning two days ago for called third strikes.
The collapse and option of Randy Messenger. Messenger hasn't been right since he broke his left(non-pitching hand) striking the dugout/clubhouse wall last season. He was getting rocked in ST, and possibly more importantly, was showing a lot of very bad body language on the mound. The demotion came as a surprise this early in ST.
Noah Lowry's injury. Lowry's absence has created an opening in the rotation. The three logical candidates would seem to be Jonathan Sanchez, Pat Misch and Brad Hennessey. Hennessey got a start today, but Bochy insisted that he is not a candidate for the rotation. He was just filling in for Tim Lincecum who's start was pushed back due to a mild groin strain. Sanchez has been very shaky so far, and appeared to be headed down to Fresno himself, but he pitched halfway decent today allowing just an unearned run in 3 IP. Misch gets the start tomorrow in what is being advertised as an audition for the rotation.

Here's where it stands right now:

Brian Wilson is the closer. He's been a bit inconsistent, but it looks like Bochy is going to see him through into the season barring a total collapse.
Tyler Walker is the setup man. He can close if Wilson collapses, but would probably be better in the 8'th inning role.
Valdez looks like the 7'th inning guy. In fact, Bochy has started running Valdez, Walker and Wilson out in order on the same day to set up that rhythm.
The emergence of Merkin Valdez would seem to push Brad Hennessey back into a middle/long man role for which he is well suited but might be miffed that it is a demotion. He would also seem to be a logical choice to take Lowry's spot in the rotation, but it seems Misch and Sanchez are ahead on the depth chart.
Despite some bluster about 11 pitchers early in ST, Bochy is talking more about 12 now, not a surprise. If Wilson, Walker, Valdez and Hennessey are locks, that leaves 3 more spots up for grabs among Steve Kline, Jack Taschner, Erick Threets, Vinny Chulk, the loser of the competition for the rotation, and several others.

Taschner and Threets have pitched fairly well. Interestingly, Taschner, who has two seasons of MLB experience, has an option left, but Threets is out of options.

Steve Kline has absolutely stunk up the place. I imagine he is a lock due to his veteran savvy, but it's real hard to swallow him blocking a more deserving younger player.

Vinny Chulk is recovering from Burger's Disease, a circulatory disease caused by smokeless tobacco. He started out shaky, but is starting to put together a string of strong outings. If he continues to pitch well, Bochy will want his veteran presence on the roster.

Jose Capellan, the rule 5 draftee, seems to be pitching himself back to the Boston organization allowing runs in almost every appearance so far.

A name to watch is Barolome Fortunato. He is a hard throwing RHP, NRI, who has pitched very well, including pitching his way out of a no out bases loaded jam today with a run scoring GIDP and another groundout. I expect he will start the season in Fresno and ride the Southwest shuttle to SF.

Another interesing development in the last few days is a couple of dominant outings by Bill Sadler with none of the poor control that has dogged him in the past. Sadler probably also has no shot at making the big club out of ST, but he could be moving up the depth chart for in-season callups.

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Jonathan Sanchez

If the Giants leadership don't get this guy at least an April audition, they have no idea how to run a rebuilding team. He needs to be given every chance possible to become a viable big league starter.

by WTP on Mar 9, 2008 3:06 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Jonathan Sanchez

They are certainly giving him every opportunity to win a job out of spring training. He still has trouble finding the strike zone with consistency and could definitely use some polish on his secondary stuff. I agree, if Sanchez gets stronger as ST goes along and looks ready, he should get the chance. If he continues to struggle with his command and control, it might be better for him to start for half a season in Fresno to polish his game.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 9, 2008 3:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

disagree

guys with control problems need to focus solely on mechanics & repeatability. They can't be worried about results at the MLB level.

While he might be able to flash decent BB rates in spring I wouldn't promote him unless he showed good control and solid command.

I realize their is good instruction at the MLB level but that is more appropriate for tweaking rather than working on the basic fundamentals.

by pedrophile on Mar 9, 2008 7:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1!

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 9, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Particularly when they have Misch. He doesn't have Sanchez' upside, but he's a decent placeholder.

by El Duq of Hurl on Mar 9, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for this man...

Very detailed and informative....nice.

I LOVE Fred Lewis BTW. I think he is actually THE most underated player in baseball right now. As in, most people, even the Giants, think of him as a spare OF who is almost 27 (right) but, I think if they let him play he can hit .288... score 100 runs (if the rest of the lineup were better), hit 15-20 homers...walk 80 times... steal 30-40 bases ... AND play a good OF even though you say his arm stinks.

Is it looking like he could take that LF job from the venerable Dave Roberts? Lewis has been swinging the bat well hasn't he so far?

Something HAS to be said for a kid who plays well EVERY time he gets a chance. What is thier damn problem with just giving him a freaking job!!? Schieholtz is NOT as good a player as Lewis, sorry. Nor is Ortmeier ( I know Ortmeier is a 1b but, they are handing him that job right?

Also, any chance Lewis goes in the deal for Crede everybody is talking about?

by casejud on Mar 9, 2008 4:53 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Fred Lewis

Fred Lewis is a good hitter with excellent plate discipline and some power and speed. IMO, the thing holding him back is horrendous defense which you really have to see to believe. He might have the weakest arm in all of baseball, takes bad routes to balls, etc. He makes up for the bad routes somewhat with his speed, but he also tends to drop a lot of routine flyballs.

Fred Lewis might be a better hitter than Nate Schierholtz right now, but Schierholtz has the higher ceiling in the long run.

I think that either Fred or Nate has a chance to unseat Dave Roberts in LF. There has also been some talk that the Giants would be willing to trade Randy Winn.

My prediction is that the Giants will trade Fred Lewis and Erick Threets for Joe Crede. Not saying I want that to happen. That's just what I think will happen.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 9, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

why would white sox do that?

thats 2 guys who are out of options. if anything they are looking for SP's, not another reliever in threets. jerry owens is like fred lewis who they already have.

by rayver723 on Mar 9, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I Don't Know

Why would the Giants give up anything more than that for a 1 year rental? Sox seem pretty anxious to make room for Fields.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 9, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Could NOT disagree more

Owens has the potential to slug .350 and Lewis has the potential to slug .450 AND gets on base more. Just because BOTH can run does not make them equal. Sox could get Lewis and find themselves a damn good LF for the next 6-7 years or so. Owens is an offensive zero.

by casejud on Mar 9, 2008 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He could

Freddie Lewis could indeed put up a .450 SLG. I doubt that he will, however, as I see him being only about a .250 hitter with all his strikeouts.

I would prefer to see Freddie in a platoon with Rajai Davis than to see Dave Roberts handed the left field job, and I realize there are those such as BP's Joe Sheehan who are really impressed with Freddie, but when I saw him play at Fresno last April, I thought Freddie had nice potential but a TON of work ahead of him to reach it.

Freddie strikes out too much, isn't a good fielder and has few baseball instincts, actually being primarily a football player out of Southern University when he was signed.

by sharksrog on Mar 9, 2008 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

FYI

There was a big article in the SJ Mercury last season that dispelled that story about being primarily a football player - which makes it even worse how bad he is in the field.

He claims that he grew up playing baseball all the time and only got into football late in high school. He was really a baseball player all the time, according to him, football was the sideline sport.

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Mar 11, 2008 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fred Lewis

Fred Lewis is hitting well enough in ST that he just might win the LF job despite his poor fielding.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 12, 2008 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Second choice

A platoon of Freddie Lewis and Rajai Davis in left field would be my second choice there. My first choice would be a platoon of Nate Schierholtz and Dan Ortmeier. Not only does my first choice get Nate's bat in the lineup on most days, it also has the added bonus of getting Dan off first base.

I still think Dan will field fine there. But he seems unlikely to ever hit like a first baseman.

The Giants' problem isn't only that they don't have enough hitters. It is that they have hitters who are playing at positions they don't hit well enough for and batting in slots they also don't hit well enough for.

I think Brian Sabean has had some bad luck recently, but truth be told, he should have been preparing for today five years ago. That strategy has certainly worked well for the Red Sox (who also have the advantage of having far more money to spend).

by sharksrog on Mar 12, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

Thanks for the info, Obsessive. It is almost always good to have more information, although in this case it is also a little depressing. :)

by sharksrog on Mar 12, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think (occasionally)

I think your idea that Freddie Lewis and Erick Threets could be traded for Joe Crede makes sense. With Omar Vizquel on the injury list, the Giants are truly bereft on the left side of the infield. Crede might play well enough for the Giants to be re-signed, or they might be able to get a draft choice if he signs elsewhere.

by sharksrog on Mar 9, 2008 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

how bout the former GiIant Todd Linden

what a spring training so far!!
he just might earn a spot on the roster, due his versatility in the OF and 1b.maybe he's the jack cust of 08, who knows. at the very least buys some time for Sweeney/Gonzalez etc

Todd Linden had two hits, two RBI and two walks Saturday as an A's split-squad edged a Cubs split-squad 7-6.
Linden is 9-for-13 with four walks. It's still early March, but he has to be making a positive impression. If he keeps it up, perhaps the A's will keep him as a fourth outfielder and send the current favorite for the job, Ryan Sweeney, back to Triple-A so that he can play regularly. It may seem as though Sweeney has been around forever, but he just turned 23 last month.

by rayver723 on Mar 9, 2008 1:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hot and Cold

Todd Linden has run hot and cold throughout his career, even in the minors. He has loads of potential though. I hope the A's give him an extended chance to establish himself. I think he can be an above average player given the opportunity.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 9, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heh...not suprrised.

Todd Linden's 2007 Spring: .392 BA, 14-74, 3 2B, 1 3B, 2 HR, 11 RBI.
Todd Linden's 2006 Spring: .305 BA, 13-59, 2 2B, 1 3B, 6 RBI.

Linden has always had strong spring performances. Don't get your hopes up.

by BruteSentiment on Mar 9, 2008 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Todd Linden

Todd Linden is another guy who strikes out too much to hit for much average. I'm not unhappy that the Giants allowed him to leave.

I said about three years ago that Todd was likely at least three years away, but felt he eventually could become an above-average outfielder. Then last spring when I did a BABIP analysis on him, I realized his chances of achieving that were very slim.

Todd had one really good year in AAA and fooled me once. But not twice. :)

by sharksrog on Mar 9, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

More on Todd...

...It seems you, rly, may be the only one who thinks he has a chance with making the major league roster.

Not even Todd thinks he's got a shot!

"I was looking at what the A's had, and I was talking to a buddy and I said, 'If I looked at every roster in baseball and could pick one spot where I was sure I could make the team, it would be Oakland," said Linden, who signed a Minor League contract with the A's as a free agent this past Nov. 14. "Then I got here, and so far it hasn't worked out.

"I had no doubt in my mind that I was going to make this team. But the vibe I'm getting, the feeling I'm getting, is that it's going to work out otherwise. I can only do so much. I don't make the decisions. It's out of my control."

Link

I was always a huge fan of Linden, and I do want to see him do well. But one thing that was never, ever in his favor was his attitude, and this is a perfect example of that.

by BruteSentiment on Mar 10, 2008 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

DJ

A couple notes from Prospectus today:

San Francisco has interest in Oakland first baseman Dan Johnson''

by rayver723 on Mar 9, 2008 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Dan Johnson

I know I'm in the minority, but I think if the Giants added Crede at 3b and Dan Johnson at 1B, they have the pitching to make a run at a playoff spot. Wouldn't want to see them give up too much for either one, though.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 9, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

You're definitely in the minority there.

Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.

by doublestix on Mar 9, 2008 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Uh, Thanks.....

for emphasizing that.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 9, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have liked

I have long liked the idea of the Giants' picking Dan Johnson off the A's scrap heap, and Joe Crede has grown on me.

But the Giants' hitting is just AWFUL. Johnson and Crede can't save it, unless Barry Bonds were brought back and had another good, healthy season. Even then I don't think the offense would be good enough.

If Barry played back to 2001-2004 and Crede and Johnson maxed out, yes. Otherwise, no.

by sharksrog on Mar 9, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Messanger

has always been a headcase

Also, BA is reporting the Giants might have Brian Bocock as their opening day SS

by nms on Mar 9, 2008 5:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Brian Bocock

Bocock would be a placeholder until Vizquel gets back, but given Vizquel's age, that might be longer than anticipated. Frandsen was supposed to get that gig, but was having terrible problems on defense. Bocock has shown advanced defensive skills. As a temporary fill in, I think the Giants are willing to sacrifice offense for defense. I personally think it was a mistake to give up on Frandsen this early in the spring.

At this point, if the Giants don't think Frandsen can play SS even temporarily, and he doesn't unseat Durham at 2B, his roster spot could be in jeopardy. Velez, who is having a good spring so far might now have the inside track a the utility IF job.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 9, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Questions

I like Kevin Frandsen as a utility infielder and am not so hot on Eugenio Velez in that role. But what is interesting about both is that they have had problems playing shortstop.

To me a good utility infielder should be able to play shortstop. If he can't, then a team would seem to need two utility infielders instead of one. SOMEONE needs to be able to back up shortstop.

Incidentally, I DO think Kevin can play short well enough to back up there. If Omar were to get injured again, the Giants could always call up Bocock to fill in -- or trade for someone else.

Wouldn't Juan Uribe or Adam Everett better have fit the Giants' plan to get younger?

by sharksrog on Mar 12, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Adam Everett

I'm not a huge Everett fan because I like a shortstop who can hit just a little. Of course, Vizquel can't hit either. It does seem crazy that Everett was both 10 years younger and cheaper, yet the Giants re-upped Vizquel.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 12, 2008 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

(Don't shoot the) Messenger

Many Giants' fans got excited when Randy Messenger gave up few runs as a Giant. What they may not have realized was that his doing so was far more luck than skill.

All Randy's ERA had to do was begin to catch up with his peripherals, and it was all over for him -- similarly to Scott Munter.

by sharksrog on Mar 9, 2008 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Update

Brian Wilson had another dominant inning today with 2 K's.

Erick Threets struck out the side in one inning. His spring ERA still stands at 0.00.

Steve Kline continued to reek, 2 runs in 1 IP. ERA>11.

Pat Misch sailed through 3 innings, but faltered in the 4'th. That's something you see commonly in ST as the pitchers try to stretch it out. His longest outing before today was 2 IP.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 9, 2008 9:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

In Kline's Case

In Steve Kline's case, as ye throw, so shall ye reek.

by sharksrog on Mar 10, 2008 3:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Steve Kline

You know Shark,

I woke up this morning thinking. It's not like Kline has been solid for the Giants and is just having a bad spring or just "rounding into form." He really hasn't been good for the last 2 years except for whatever veteran savvy he imparts to the younger pitchers. You can pick up Steve Kline's production out of the dumpster any day of the season. Right now, I would vote for keeping Threets over Kline. If Threets blows up, you just bring up Fortunato or Sadler or go find someone off the waiver wire.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 10, 2008 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I too

I too would keep Erick Threets over Steve Kline, since Threets could actually help when the Giants become good again, while Kline will be likely be retired or even worse than he is now.

I'm not too big on Erick, although since I have refereed at his high school on many occasions I would like to see him succeed.

I'm glad you haven't given up on Billy Sadler. Some have, but IMO he could bounce back strongly this season after a very difficult and wild 2007.

by sharksrog on Mar 11, 2008 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kline was good in key area

He had the 5th or 6th best (i.e. lowest) percentage for inherited runners scoring on him in 2007, in the NL.

Not sure how exactly he got the high ERA though, was it because his relievers blew it for him? I know BP has some stat that normalizes relief after a reliever's appearance, was he served or not by his fellow relievers?

Or maybe he was just plain bad when he had his own runners on base.

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Mar 11, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps

Perhaps if Perkin' Merkin Valdez comes along, the Giants will be able to trade Brad Hennessey, who would seem to have a little value at least.

by sharksrog on Mar 9, 2008 10:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Possible Giants Fire Sale

Recent scuttlebutt on two different MLB rumor websites, from two different national writers, said that Giants are having a "fire sale" and among the players being offered (between two different sources, Ken Rosenthal and Jason Stark) were: Ray Durham, Rich Aurilia, Randy Winn, Steve Kline, Tyler Walker, Rajai Davis, and Merkin Valdez. One of the sites said that he called the Giants and Noah Lowry and Travis Ishikawa were also on this approximately dozen major and minor league players list.

I could understand most of the names on the list, but not Valdez unless there is a problem they see that isn't evident now.

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Mar 11, 2008 9:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Firesale

Most of those are pretty obvious. The problem is finding any other team that would take them on even for free.

Valdez is out of options so he has to make the 25 man roster. I wouldn't be totally opposed to trading him. I'd do it for a good contract controlled firstbaseman like Kendry Morales of the Angels.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 12, 2008 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs