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Bailey vs Slowey

Tonight Homer Bailey went against Kevin Slowey

Cincinnati IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Bailey 4.0 3 1 1 2 0 0 6.75

Minnesota IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Slowey 5.0 3 0 0 0 5 0

4.0

Seems like both of these guys may not make their big league squads to start the season but both should see time in the show during 2008.  These seem like pretty good stats late in spring training against what looks like each teams opening day lineup.  So, my question is, who makes the biggest impact for their club this year?  

Star-divide

 

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Well, Slowey does

He's presently the 3rd best starter on the staff, and will pitch all year for the big team unless something bad happens. Homer will have to fight his way past Volquez and/or Cuetto to be the Reds 5th starter. I really doubt he gets 12 starts this year.

by The commentator formerly known as Yoda on Mar 20, 2008 9:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bailey

I am the only one, or does anybody else like Cueto over Bailey.

I think some have apply an unfair height bias to Cueto. Bailey does have the higher upside, but Cueto is much safer bet to actually reach his upside.

www.baseball-intellect.com

by NovaO on Mar 20, 2008 11:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

typo:

*Am I the only one

www.baseball-intellect.com

by NovaO on Mar 20, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cueto vs Bailey

Right now the difference is that Cueto has better command of his stuff.

Bailey just isn't ready yet, but once he is, watch out.

Now raise your goblet of rock. It's a toast to those who rock!

by Dewey Finn on Mar 20, 2008 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This year

Slowey, but in the long run Bailey. If he can almost live up to his potential it won't even be close.

by nyy601 on Mar 21, 2008 12:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

everyone who hates on Bailey seems to forget how young he is... because he has been talked up for years... he still has a few years to get the command down guys, just because his stuff has been MLB-ready for some time now, doesn't mean that his command is awful, its just not as good as his stuff

by daveh33 on Mar 21, 2008 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bailey

Slowey's a FB, command type guy with little upside beyond midrotation starter. I'd like to think he could be Radke or Tewksbury, but he's more Scott Baker than Homer Bailey.

Bailey's a potential ace; sure, he may never reach Slowey's production, but I know whom I'd rather have.

by JohnnyTuttle on Mar 21, 2008 8:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Slowey

I wouldn't touch a Red's starter as long as Dusty is there.

by HuskerFan on Mar 21, 2008 12:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What?

What has happened to Homer Bailey's ability to strike out batters? He now has only nine in 14 2/3 inning this spring after recording only 28 whiffs in 45 1/3 innings with the Reds last season.

Does this concern anyone? I would still like to have him as a prospect, but isn't his star dimming instead of twinkling?

by sharksrog on Mar 21, 2008 3:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Always

wanna be mindful of SNTS, but Cueto really has whipped past him. I know how young Bailey still is and that he has time on his side, but I can't say I feel very good about him right now.

"The Blue Jays won't win another playoff game until the Yankees and Red Sox are contracted." - Tom Berenger

by PujolsJunkie on Mar 21, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he's working on command and other things

getting K's is not his concern right now... nobody questions his stuff, therefore nobody questions his ability to strike a batter out... thats why you don't hear anybody mentioning it

by daveh33 on Mar 21, 2008 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

More stuff on stuff

Good point about Homer's good stuff. But I still think one could question it.

After averaging easily over a strikeout per inning in 2005 and 2006, Homer was below that level in the minors in 2007. In addition, averaged less than six strikeouts per nine innings when he was promoted to the Reds.

Jonathan Sanchez of the Giants is three or four years older and not as good a prospect as Homer is, yet Jonathan -- whose problem, like Homer's, is control and command -- has continued to strike out over a batter per inning even at the major league level. And while Jonathan too has been below a strikeout per inning this spring, he has been much closer to that level than has Homer.

And it wasn't as if Homer was economizing on his pitch count last season by not striking out as many batters. He averaged 17.85 pitches per inning, which is definitely on the high side. Homer's high number of walks contributed to that high pitch rate, but it doesn't seem as if he has intentionally trying to strike out fewer batters in order to pitch more efficiently.

Homer yielded less than a hit per inning with the Reds last season -- but unless he increases his dominance, I would expect that to change. He limited opposing hitters to a BABIP somewhere in the .240 area, and even Pedro Martinez isn't that good. I expect batters to significantly increase their BABIP against Homer the next few seasons, much as happened to Matt Cain.

I happen to think that K/BB ratio is very important -- especially so with a high K/9. He's still VERY young, but Homer's K/BB ratio has disintegrated badly. Maybe he just hasn't been entirely healthy. But then that would raise questions about his future health.

Any way I look at it, Homer has fallen out of the class of Phil Hughes and Tim Lincecum. That's not to say he can't return. But to me it appears that Homer has taken a nasty turn in the road and needs to get back on course.

I still like him as a prospect. But I don't like him nearly as well as I liked him a year ago. And even then I was telling John to put Lincecum ahead of him -- in part because despite the many concerns about Lincecum's future health, I felt Tim was a better health risk than either Hughes or Bailey. So which one of the three wasn't injured last season?

At this point I like Yovanni Gallardo better than Homer. This may seem nuts, but I prefer Rick Porcello to Homer.

by sharksrog on Mar 22, 2008 4:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, and no

Looking at PITCH/fx, Bailey's stuff does indeed appear to be good. 43% of his strikes were either called or swinging. That is virtually the identical percentage accomplished by Phil Hughes and Yovanni Gallardo. But Homer's control wasn't NEARLY as good as either of the other two.

And Tim Lincecum had a more impressive 46% of his strikes as either called or swinging. Plus, Tim's control was clearly better than Homer's.

Bailey and Hughes are the youngest of that quartet, with Lincecum being the oldest. Lincecum has been the healthiest of the group, with Bailey and Hughes seeming to be the laggards in that regard.

As I have said, I wouldn't give up on Homer Bailey as a very good candidate. But while one could have made an argument a year ago for Bailey as being no worse than the second-best prospect (behind only Hughes) among that group, it appears to me that he has fallen to the bottom of an extremely talented group.

Bailey would benefit from missing even more bats than he presently does. But most of all he needs to improve his control and remain healthy. He didn't accomplish either of the last two this past season, causing his star not to shine as brightly IMO.

Incidentally, PITCH/fx does indicate that Homer would quite possibly benefit from using his curve ball more often. Not only did he achieve a higher percentage of untouched strikes with the pitch (46% of all strikes) than with his fastball (41%), Homer also had far better control of the pitch (66% strikes) than his heater (62% strikes).

It appeared that Homer had trouble throwing strikes when he was behind in the count. He walked 10 of the 12 hitters he went to 3-0 on (with one of the other two hitting a double). He walked 14 of the 26 he got behind 3-1. He walked only 10 of the 29 hitters who went to a full count on him, which isn't too bad. But he walked 20 of the 88 batters to whom he threw a ball with his first pitch. That would be a walk rate of somewhere around eight or so per nine innings, which isn't very good.

My suggestion to Homer would be to throw the curve more often when he gets behind. It would make it harder for the hitter to look for the fastball in fastball counts, and it doesn't appear it would cost Homer much if anything with regard to control.

As I was performing this analysis, it dawned on me that one way to see how pitchers' control and dominance compared would be to see how they fared on the 3-2 pitch, when one ball would mean a walk and one strike would mean a strikeout. What percentage of batters did the pitcher walk, strike out, allow to put in play, allow to put in play for a hit and allow to put in play for an out? Here is a comparison of Bailey and Lincecum last season:

Bailey Lincecum
% of walks 34% 33%
% of strikeouts 17% 28%
% BIP (outs) 31% 28%
%BIP (hits) 17% 10%

What we see is that when throwing strikes meant a hit or an out while throwing a ball meant a walk, both Bailey and Lincecum walked about a third of the batters. Lincecum got the large advantage by allowing only one of ten batters to get a hit, while Homer allowed one of every six to get a knock. As a result, Lincecum limited batters to only a .148 BA on the 3-2 count, while Homer let them hit .263. Lincecum's primarly advantage was that he struck out over 60% more batters than Bailey in that situation, allowing only about 60% as many balls to be put into play.

On the 3-2 pitch Lincecum didn't show much better control than Bailey. But by showing far more dominance, he was able to allow far fewer hits. The poster to whom I was replying said that Bailey had shown plenty of stuff but needed to work on his control. When a strike was needed in order to avoid putting a runner on base, Lincecum showed far better stuff than Bailey.

By the way, here is the same comparison between Gallardo and Hughes:

Gallardo Hughes
% of walks 31% 45%
% of strikeouts 29% 13%
% BIP (outs) 25% 24%
%BIP (hits) 14% 18%

Hughes is known for his control, but his walk percentage on 3-2 was the highest of all four young pitchers. Gallardo's numbers were similar to Lincecum's.

On 3-2, all but Hughes had decent -- but not great -- control. Lincecum and Gallardo got a lot of strikeouts; Bailey and Hughes didn't. Lincecum held batters to the lowest batting average, followed by Gallardo, Bailey and Hughes.

I'm rather shocked by how poorly Hughes pitched on 3-2, and Bailey wasn't too good either. Perhaps that is an indication of their being the two youngest pitchers in the group. Perhaps neither Hughes nor Bailey benefits from as much domination as the older Lincecum and Gallardo.

I would take any of these guys in a flash -- but I would rank Lincecum at the top and Bailey at the bottom of the group. And to me, Bailey falls clearly below the other three, who appear to be fairly close.

by sharksrog on Mar 22, 2008 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gallardo is only a few months older than Hughes and Bailey; only Lincecum is the "outlier" in the group when it comes to age!

Hello sharksrog,

Nice analysis - very insightful! :-)

One point of clarification regarding their ages - you're correct in that Hughes and Bailey are the two youngest, but Gallardo is right with them:

Youngest to Oldest with birthdates displayed:

Philip Hughes - June 24, 1986 (will be 22-YO in 2008)
Homer Bailey - May 3, 1986 (will be 22-YO in 2008)
Yovani Gallardo - Feb. 27, 1986 (will be 22-YO in 2008)
Tim Lincecum - June 15, 1984 (will be 24-YO in 2008)

As you can see, Lincecum is the only outlier of that group, as he'll turn 24-YO this season; the other three, including Gallardo, will turn 22-YO this season, so, essentially, Hughes and Bailey really don't have an age advantage over Gallardo, outside of a few months, but not even a calendar year like they all do times two with Lincecum.

Based on your analysis, I think Gallardo would have the edge on both Hughes and Bailey at this point, with Lincecum also being in the mix, though his being 2 years older gives the other two time to catch up in terms of the analysis you presented, but Gallardo has a sizable edge on them being that he is doing moderately to considerably better in those statistics over Hughes and Bailey AND is essentially the same age as both of them.

Just my 2 cents - no offense. :-)

Take care and have a great day!

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Mar 22, 2008 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps I read your statement incorrectly!

Hello again sharksrog,

Rereading this statement again:

"Perhaps neither Hughes nor Bailey benefits from as much domination as the older Lincecum and Gallardo."

I took it that you meant both Lincecum and Gallardo were (considerably) older than Hughes and Bailey, but perhaps you just meant Lincecum being considerably older; if that's the case, then please ignore my above post, at least the part about pointing out their ages. Thanks!

Take care and have a great day!

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Mar 22, 2008 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice Points

I wrote a fairly lengthy reply to your two post, Indiansfan, but somehow it disappeared into cyberspace.

Let me summarize by saying that you made some very good points, including showing that Yovanni Gallardo was about six months younger than I thought. I already liked Yovanni a lot, and your comment swelled him up a bit more.

by sharksrog on Mar 24, 2008 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In the above-mentioined game

In the above-mentioned game, Homer Bailey yielded only three hits. But he did so by limiting his opposing batters to a BABIP of only about .167. That just isn't going to happen consistently.

Had Homer given up a more typical .286 on balls in play, he would have yielded twice as many hits. Six hits in five innings isn't awful, but over a full season it would translate into something like 192 hits in 160 innings, which isn't very good.

And who did he think he was striking out nobody -- Barry Zito? :)

by sharksrog on Mar 24, 2008 3:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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