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Sabathia calls off negotiations with Tribe

Big day for the Indians as CC Sabathia called off further negotiations with the Indians until after the season is over which is genrally considered a foregone conclusion that he will test the free agency waters.  Although Shapiro has stated many times that he intends to keep Sabathia this year no matter if they can reach an agreement or not, many Cleveland fans think they would be better off trading him for prospects before the season starts.   Any thoughts out there?

Poll
Keep him or trade him
Keep him
68 votes
Trade him
43 votes

111 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 24 comments

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re
test the waters and see if the Red Sox or Yankees packages for santana would stand with CC. If not, hold him and see how the season goes. If the Tribe looks like they are a WS contender hold him. If they drop off from last year trade him to the top bid that comes along

by ScottAZ on Feb 14, 2008 9:12 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Gotta deal him
 As a Tribe fan, I'd love to see him stay but the Tribe simply cannot afford to let him walk. Given the talent acquired in the Bedard deal, we should seriously consider moving him if we can acquire a nice package of players/prospects. Would the Yankees offer Hughes and Melky or another prospect? I just hate to see us lose an ace and get basically nothing. IMO, a small market simply cannot afford to do this and continue to remain competitive.

by shark on Feb 14, 2008 9:22 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Keep in mind:
there is only one Bill Bavasi, and he's working with a finite budget.

by elrey34 on Feb 15, 2008 11:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

to be honest
I doubt he goes to an American League team like the Yankees and Red Sox because they are competing with them.

I personally think and hope the Cubs can be frontrunners.

by Rezze21 on Feb 14, 2008 10:40 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Cubs would be awesome
but I think the Indians have a good idea of how willing/un-willing CC wants to stay in Cleveland.  One thing they can't afford to do is panic.  The Cubs were in a similar situation last year with Zambrano and he's re-signed.  Cleveland is a contender - you simply don't trade your staff anchor before the season.  If they fall too far out of it in late June, then they should explore a trade.  Otherwise bite the bullet and hope he stays.  They already have max dollar amount they will spend - if they know that won't be enough, sure trade him.  If they are still competing - I'm keeping him and taking the comp picks if I think I can win a WS.
Send your top 50-100 prospects to slurveone@yahoo.com!!!

by slurve on Feb 14, 2008 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

never said before the season
cleveland doesn't have the biggest market though remember that.

by Rezze21 on Feb 14, 2008 11:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mid market?
The Indians payroll was lowest in the AL Central last year, it was under 70 million, estimated revenue were at 150.  They definitely have the money to resign CC, if they don't get it done it is a shame. Hopefully the re-signing of guys like Jake Westbrook, who is an OK pitcher but definitely not the ace that CC is, doesn't keep the Tribe from being able to re-sign their ace.  

If they are unable to re-sign him, I would test the market now.  Maybe try to get the dodgers involved, since I doubt the tribe want to trade CC to an american league team.

by natedogg430 on Feb 14, 2008 11:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
The Dodgers have a wealth of young talent the tribe could use. It would be intersting if he was on the trade market to see what his vaule would be in terms of returning talent.

by shark on Feb 14, 2008 11:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I see your point, but
I believe the Royals - also in the AL Central - had a lower payroll.

by count sutton on Feb 14, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cots
According to cots contracts, the Royals opening day 25 man salary was $67,166,500.  The Tribes was $61,673,267. So take that for what it is worth.  

by natedogg430 on Feb 14, 2008 2:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough
I was going off of memory.

by count sutton on Feb 14, 2008 7:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Indians
I think they stay put for now and see how well they compete. They are an excellent team, so it's tough to deal your ace right before the season starts. See if you compete and make this decision in July.

by count sutton on Feb 14, 2008 12:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

+1
And am I the only person here who feels this thread is incomplete without indiansfan chiming in. Where are you at, man? We need you!
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile

by Boxkutter on Feb 14, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah
negotiations have been cut off until after the season. tell me another, cc. if anyone actually believes that, the old chestnut about the brooklyn bridge comes to mind.

by larry on Feb 14, 2008 12:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Sabathia likely will NOT be an Indian after 2008!
Hello everyone,

Boxkutter - thanks for the support - greatly appreciated!  :-)

This day was probably coming, though I know some Tribe fans, myself included, were recently encouraged and thought there was a decent chance of resigning him.  Those hopes are pretty-well gone in my opinion, unless CC has a 180-degree change of heart, but that is unlikely.

If this had been last year, I'd probably be more upset about it; while CC's eventual loss will be felt, the Indians should still be able to field a quality team even after CC departs, due to the fact that virtually the rest of the Indians are signed for a few to several years, including Betancourt just recently.  Combine that with the fact that the Indians' farm system has notable prospects like Miller, Lofgren, Sipp (presuming he returns successfully from TJ surgery,) Stevens, Rodriguez, and others lower in the system, and the Indians can likely field competitive teams that have a solid to good chance to reach the postseason into the early part of the next decade.

Of course, CC's eventual loss would be mitigated moreso if Carmona can continue producing at a level at or near his great 2007 season, and if Miller and/or Lofgren can come close or meet their potential - only time will tell with them.

As for CC, it's a bit disappointing that he wasn't willing to negotiate through ST as he moreless said he was willing to do a few months back.  That is pretty much a telltale sign in my opinion that he WON'T be back with the Indians in 2009.

The debate over trading him versus keeping him is an interesting one, one I've debated about myself from time to time over the past year or two.  I can understand the idea of trading him - quality Minor Leaguers, even if they aren't top prospects, will probably be more useful, and therefore, valuable than 2 extra draft picks.  

The problem is though that the Indians are by all accounts a legitimate WS contender in 2008 with Sabathia.  Combine that with the fact that the Indians haven't won the WS since 1948, and there's more pressure on the Indians' FO to ride it out with Sabathia through this season and try their best to win a WS.

Of course, that could change if the Indians fall out of the race by June-July, or if someone would really throw an outrageous deal in their laps to acquire Sabathia and the exclusive rights to negotiating with him (as well as have a good chance of signing him - say the Yankees, the Red Sox, or the Dodgers, etc.,) but the chances of a deal like that happening are pretty remote in my opinion.  In addition, I'm not sure any realistic deal would enable the Indians to be as strong of a team in 2008 as they are with CC leading the rotation - even obtaining a Hughes or Buchholz would likely not make the Indians a better team in 2008 than they are with CC, since it would seem unlikely that either could match CC's ability in 2008 due to their limited experience and the fact that neither of them have had a full season at the ML level.  

Therefore, virtually ANY trade the Indians could make that involves CC would weaken them for the 2008 season.  While there are solid reasons for improving the Indians for 2009-2010 and beyond, any trade of CC now is going to alienate the Indians' fanbase, and that fanbase is just starting to show some support for the Indians after having been largely missing since the sellout streak ended in 2001.  I know Opening Day is sold out, but I think there are several other dates that are either sold out or very, very close to selling at this early date, something that I believe has not happened since probably around 2002 after the Indians' successful 2001 season.  I think I heard that Indians' ticket sales are up 20% or so over last season's sales, so the revenue the Indians are receiving from ticket sales is finally going back up after several years where it was not as viable a revenue stream as it was during the glory years of 1995-2001 (yes, the dollar amounts are more due to the higher prices nowadays, but the costs have also gone up, so in effect, the revenue stream from the ticket sales provides much less than it did during those years.)

If the Indians trade CC now, the majority of fans, as unrational as it really is, will probably feel betrayed and not want to come out to the ballpark.  Certainly, future ticket sales will be affected, with only the Indians excelling to a high degree possibly bringing them back out this season, and without C.C., that will be more difficult to achieve, though not impossible.

While the Indians' FO will base their decisions on what is best for the team, and those decisions don't always appease the fans (the Colon trade, for example,) the Indians' FO certainly doesn't want to lose fan support so soon after working so hard to finally get it back either.  Plus, the Indians' FO feels that they have a legitimate chance of winning a WS this season with Sabathia, so unless the Indians unexpectedly fall out of the race early or someone comes up with a totally ridiculous offer (virtually no chance at that happening,) it is doubtful that CC will be traded during the 2008 season.  The Indians will likely play out the 2008 season with him and take the 2 Draft picks they'll get from the team that signs him in the 2008-2009 offseason.

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Take care and have a great day!

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Feb 14, 2008 6:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Sabathia vs. Santana
As a Twins fan, I feel your pain, indiansfan. But the difference is, the two organizations are in a different place. The Indidans are my pick to represent the AL in the World Series, and they won't get there, let alone win, without CC. So my money is on Shapiro keeping him and then letting him go to free agency.

The Twins weren't going to win this year anyway, so they had to trade Santana. Plus, the no-trade clause tied their hands and gave Santana unprecedented leverage in the deal. Sabathia doesn't have that. So, if something happens to Martinez or Sizemore, God forbid, and the Indians are unexpectedly knocked out by the trading deadline, they might consider trading him. But if they're within 5 in July, they have to keep him.

When he does go to free agency, he's a sure bet to get a better contract than Santana, which makes me smile. The way Santana puffed out his chest like a peacock, forced the Twins to trade him, then threatened to walk away if the Mets didn't meet his demands, makes me want his reign as the highest paid pitcher to be very short. If any pitcher can knock him off his high horse, CC can do it.

cmathewson

by cmathewson on Feb 15, 2008 12:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm a Tigers fan so....
... I know my opinion might not be as totally unbiased as some, but I feel like the perfect time for the Indians to trade him is now. What I dont hear addressed much is the high workload and shorter offseason that he's had this year as opposed to years past. Pitchers on teams that have had post-season success, at least on teams that havent consistently been in the playoffs, have really struggled the next season, especially as the year goes on.

It takes a lot of stamina to keep pitching into the playoffs and that can end up taking its toll on the pitcher the following season.

Tigers and Cards had playoff success in 06 and both their staffs regressed greatly in 07.The White Sox in 05 regressed greatly in 06. Those are just a few recent examples off the top of my head.

Add to the fact that Sabathia hadnt pitched over 200 innings since 2002 (the only time in his career before this year) and he pitched 256.1 Innings this year. 256 is a LOT of innings. I know he was more economical with his pitches this year, but still, that is a big increase and a lot of total innings.

I get the feeling that he isnt going to sustain the success he had last year in 08 (though he likely will rebound in 09).

Just my thoughts.

by grozzy on Feb 15, 2008 9:33 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Trade
When you have a chance to compete for the World Series as a mid-market team, you take it. The Indians can compete this year, and trading Sabathia will not improve those chances.

The Indians should not trade him at this point in time, but instead they should wait until July and make the judgement then.

by count sutton on Feb 15, 2008 9:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My point is that....
.... it is likely he will not have success like last year this year.

For one, having him under perform would hurt their ability to make a run for the World Series. If their staff hits the same wall a lot of similar teams have in recent years, they will likely fall a bit short.

For two, if he does struggle because of fatigue or, in the worst case for the Indians, ends up with nagging injuries, his value drops a lot. Especially because people will undoubtedly blame it on his physical conditioning, even if its not warranted.

Its quite likely that he regresses a bit and that could be the difference between getting a package like the Twins or As got for their aces and getting a package of two B level prospects.

Remember, teams wont pay nearly as much for a 2 month rental of a pitcher who isnt in ace form.

by grozzy on Feb 15, 2008 10:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

even if he regresses
he'll still be quite good. it would be colossally dumb - and probably cause a revolt among indian fans - for a team that was 1 win from the world series last year to trade their ace prior to the season even starting. you don't do such things in baseball unless your team does not have a chance at the playoffs. cc doesn't bring anything back that can help the team now and their window of opportunity is now.

by larry on Feb 15, 2008 11:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess I cant argue with that much
I just think that if they are going to trade him, the perfect time is now.

If they keep him going into the season, they should be committed to keeping him all year barring a total collapse.

Unless they are totally out of it at the trade deadline, it would be a mistake to trade him at that point.

If they are going to go for it this year, they shouldn't even float the idea of trading him.

Oh and add the 03 Cubs and Marlins to the list of teams whose staffs regressed mightily after a long playoff run.

by grozzy on Feb 15, 2008 11:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

doesn't it make sense
that teams that play well in a given season usually get career (or otherwise very good) performances (not to mention largely injury free years) from many of their players? i haven't really seen anything confirming that it was workload or the extended season that was necessarily the cause of poorer performances by pitchers the following season.

by larry on Feb 15, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I appreciate your thoughts!
Hello grozzy,

Regarding CC's IPs, CC was within 10 IP of 200 IP in 2003, 2005, and 2006, and pitched 188.0 IP in 2004, so it's not like he's been well-under 200 IP like, say, Erik Bedard, who wasn't even close to 200 IP before 2006, so I don't think the fact that Sabathia has only reached over 200 IP twice is as much of a concern as you are stating.

I'm not saying CC won't be tired from the 256 IP in 2007, but I don't think if CC had pitched 10-12 extra innings or so in those four other seasons would make that big of a difference in whether he'd be better able to handle the 256 IP load from 2007 - if he had pitched 200+ IP 6 times instead of two times probably wouldn't make that big of a difference when Sabathia came within 12 IP (around 2 starts) in 4 other seasons.  

One other point to consider - while Sabathia and Carmona both might not be able to match their 2007 seasons (hopefully close, though,) the Indians will hopefully have Westbrook for the whole season, and based on his pretty consistent track record, I think he could help to make up for the slack that Sabathia and Carmona might have in 2008.  I don't know how Byrd will be, but I think he could put up a similar season, one where he's stronger in one half and weaker in another (strong in '07 first half, weaker in '07 second half.)  If Lee/Sowers/Laffey/Miller could hold up the #5 spot well enough (Laffey or Miller might be the 2 best bets, with Sowers a darkhorse if his improvement in AAA is legit; I'll be pleasantly surprised if Lee can do it, as I give him the least chance being that he's been struggling pretty much for the past two seasons and has moreless lost his curveball, which might have been his best pitch,) I think the possible dropoff in Sabathia and Carmona's performances can be moreless made up for, especially if Sabathia and Carmona can put up above-average seasons, with flashes of brilliance from time to time, a decent possibility for both, and especially for Sabathia, based on his track record.  

Also keep in mind that Sabathia will probably try his very best in 2008, being that he's in a big contract year - while this could backfire on him and lead either to poor performance or injury, it could also lead him to him having a comparable season to 2007.  I think the improvement in his command and approach is legit, as he's been a different, more consistent pitcher since August 2005.  The workload last year is a bit of a concern because of the unknown effects it could have on CC, but CC is quite strong and has been pretty durable considering his large size, so I think he has a solid chance of having an at least above-average season, possibly even a comparable season to 2007.

Only time will tell, but like count sutton and I both mentioned, I think the Indians will hold on to him for the reasons mentioned - with him, the Indians are likely a WS contender in 2008; without him, even getting a prospect like Hughes or Buchholz in a package, the Indians are probably not a WS contender in 2008.  Being that the fans are finally coming back to support the Indians, trading off Sabathia now would probably cause the fans to leave for at least the next 5-10 years, even if the Indians rebound to this point by 2010, as the fans will feel betrayed for giving up on a potential WS season before the season even started, for a franchise that hasn't won a WS since 1948.

As Yoda said, the time to go for and win a WS is right NOW, which is likely why CC will remain an Indian through at least July 2008, and probably, the entire 2008 season.

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Again, I appreciate your thoughts.

Please take care and have a great weekend!

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Feb 15, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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