Ramon Hernandez Traded
by PhillyPhanatic on Dec 9, 2008 8:36 PM EST
52 comments
Baltimore has sent Ramon HernandeIz and 2-3 million in cash to Cincinatti for Ryan Freel, Brandon Waring and Justin Turner.... More importantly, this apparently clears any opposition to Matt Wieters starting the 2009 season as the Orioles starting backstop... Anyone else as excited as I am about this? Let the Age of Wieters officially begin!
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My bad
haha, guess i was too excited to proof read…
by PhillyPhanatic on Dec 9, 2008 8:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wieters will still start at AAA
A la Longoria.
by dkdc on Dec 9, 2008 9:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Almost certainly.
They were hesitant to advance him early at every stop so far – even when he demonstrated he could dominate the league.
There was also talk today of bringing Zaun or some other vet in to start the season.
by alskor on Dec 9, 2008 9:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
plus
your point – they can delay his arb clock by starting him in AAA.
by alskor on Dec 9, 2008 9:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
he will most likely start in AAA but he make it very hard in spring training.
by PhillyPhanatic on Dec 9, 2008 9:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Couldnt make it any harder than Longoria
did for the Rays… he raked in ST and if you remember the Rays were killed in the press for not breaking camp with him.
by alskor on Dec 9, 2008 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
WELCOME THRILLHO
Meanwhile, Guillermo Quiroz sobs, alone, in a corner.
"That is like saying my ‘upside’ is Brad Pitts face, with Einstein’s brain, and Ron Jeremy’s unit. It is nice to dream, but that ceiling isn’t going to happen." (King Billy Royal)
by drjayphd on Dec 9, 2008 10:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
The only way you could possibly screw up Matt Wieters is by pushing him too hard. Letting him get some experience at AAA – even if it’s just a month or two – and letting him get into a groove against less-than-major-league competition is the best way to go, even if you think he’s major league ready.
Worked out pretty nicely for Jay Bruce last year, as I recall.
by mrkupe on Dec 9, 2008 11:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think he could use 1-2 months in AAA
He didn’t dominate in the AFL like he did in high A and AA. He had a nice batting average and OBP, but his power disappeared. Its a hitters league, to boot. I would really like to see him start the year in AAA.
Go Pirates!!!
by cool hand Charlie on Dec 10, 2008 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Waring and Turner
How good are they (I’m assuming they’re prospects)? Dougdirt, care to shed a little light on this?
by demondeaconsbaseball on Dec 9, 2008 9:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Waring
I don’t know much about Turner, but Waring I know a little about – he has two plus tools in his power and his arm (from what I’ve read) at third base, but he’s a fringe average defender who probably won’t hit for average at higher levels because of his terrible strikeout rate. He was a little older than ideal at 22 in class A as well, but if he could (big IF I know) cut down on those Ks, he could be a very good hitting third baseman. John gave him a C+ last year saying that the k rate scared him, but was left out of the book even though he had a decent season.
by Grudyfan on Dec 9, 2008 10:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's $3 million
At least according to the most recent sources.
Turner and Waring are C-type prospects. Doug has them ranked as the 21st and 39th best prospects in the system, respectively.
by Snake the Jake on Dec 9, 2008 9:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That's not a bad return then
A decent utility guy in Freel and a couple low-level (I’m assuming) prospects for an old catcher.
Good for both sides.
by demondeaconsbaseball on Dec 9, 2008 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't this kind of a pile of poop for a year of a league-average catcher
and 1-2 draft picks?
Don’t like this trade for Baltimore at all.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 9, 2008 10:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Cinci isn't getting any draft picks for Ramon
Offering him arbitration is way to risky, as he would probably make at least the 9 million he was scheduled to make in 2010. Furthermore Ramon would almost assuredly accept, because no one would want to give up a 1st rounder to sign him.
by Birdfan01 on Dec 9, 2008 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I think this was mainly a “fair thee well” to Ryan Freel who, for whatever reason, is no longer wanted in Cinci.
by mraver on Dec 9, 2008 11:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
being
an alcoholic is probably part of that “whatever reason.” Plus, at his best, Freel is a great supersub or a decent, versatile starter who can bring some speed and OBP to a lineup at a few different positions.
The Reds don’t really seem to be in a place where a great bench player is an asset to them
by nms on Dec 10, 2008 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK... if he accepts, you get another year of a league-average catcher
Wash, rinse, repeat.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 10, 2008 1:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mid-30s catchers don't age well
He was below-average last year, and is likely to get even worse over the next 2 years.
by dkdc on Dec 10, 2008 8:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn't below average last year...
His OPS is still solidly in the plus range for a catcher.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 10, 2008 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Quote from rotoworld
“Orioles general manager Andy MacPhail more or less said that Baltimore is planning on Matt Wieters being the Opening Day catcher. That’s not necessarily surprising, because Wieters is arguably the best prospect in all of baseball and perhaps the top all-around catching prospect since Joe Mauer, but MacPhail noted that after dealing Hernandez the Orioles now have zero catchers on the 40-man roster and unlike most GMs in his position did little to downplay Wieters’ potential for an immediate impact.”
Link: http://www.rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=224&articleid=31747
by PhillyPhanatic on Dec 10, 2008 1:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ah, the Orioles
Gotta love those decision-making skills.
There’s a reason certain teams always win and certain teams don’t, fellas.
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Dec 10, 2008 3:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you mean you think this is a bad decision, can you say why?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 10, 2008 5:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As an O's fan and Wieters fantasy owner...
I’ll take a stab at it. It’s a move with little upside and major downside. Forget the players they got. It’s not about that. The real upside is they save some cash from Hernandez’ contract and replace him with a much cheaper, and hopefully better, option. It’d be great if right from the start Wieters is the player they hope he is. If that happens, no major problem. But what if he doesn’t? What if he struggles a bit at the start. Then what? Do they have a reliable starter to put in there? No. So that means Wieters has to fight his way out of the slow start increasing the already heavy pressure he was under. Expecting, nay demanding, a rookie with no experience above AA to be a stud right from the getgo is playing with fire. Is this the best way to protect your most valuable asset? Even if you don’t consider the issue of service time, it’s a gamble, but when you throw that on top of the considerations, it just makes me wonder what the hell are they thinking.
Now, if they go out and acquire a Zaun or someone of that ilk who could reasonably replace Hernandez at a cheaper price, then I have no problem with the trade. I would much much much rather the Orioles take the Longoria/Bruce approach, and at least give the kid several weeks in AAA before feeding him to the wolves.
by journeymen on Dec 10, 2008 8:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guarantee you
They will sign a veteran catcher like Zaun or Barrett and Wieters will start the year at AAA.
by dkdc on Dec 10, 2008 9:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i disagree with this.
Weiters could work it out even if he slumps early. I agree I’d like to see him start for a month or two in AAA, but even if he doesn’t he could be fine even if he struggles early. The Orioles broke ST with Markakis in 2006 as a starter. And he produced a .558 OPS in April and a .667 OPS in May. There was even talk of sending him down, but management said no, they’d stick with him. He rebounded to produce an .803 OPS in June and a .998 OPS in July. So we all see how he ended up, guy is one of the better young corner OF’s in baseball now. Clearly struggling early didn’t hinder his long term development. And I think that most will agree that while Markakis was a nice prospect….he was never regarded as highly as Weiters.
Go Pirates!!!
by cool hand Charlie on Dec 10, 2008 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
This is basically my view as well. Why rush the kid if there’s no need to? Based on public comments, it appears that is what they’re going to do. If they change that view, I’ll reconsider my position.
Still, IMO, it’s never a wise idea to put too much pressure on a young kid, especially in the press. Labeling Wieters as the starter next year, even if it’s just during the offseason, is another pressure he’ll have to deal with, without a concomitant upside.
In addition, if reported, the O’s are giving the Reds $3M to offset part of RH’s salary, well, then I really think it’s a boneheaded deal.
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Dec 10, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What public comments are you looking at?
They aren’t rushing him:
MacPhail said Wieters is “unlikely” to be the Orioles’ Opening Day catcher, but he expects him to join the big league club at some point during the season.
by dkdc on Dec 10, 2008 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was referring
To the post that started this mini-chain. If that is wrong, or has since been updated, I think it’s a good thing for MW.
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on Dec 10, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
comments
I have heard both reports. Originally i had heard that he was unlikely to begin opening day as the starting catcher, and that seems to be the logical action to take. However, we all know that Baltimore is anything but logical and are subject to pressure from above in the form of Peter Angelos. I just posted that comment as I saw it because it was a direct quote from MacPhail and a differing opinion. It also had some validity to it because as of right now Baltimore has no other option to start at catcher other than Wieters. This deal was made with Wieters in mind so it seems that currently that is the initial plan they are going with. That’s not to say that they wont change their mind after the rush of the winter meetings and sign a stop-gap option to a 1 yr deal or minor league deal. But as of right now all signs point to Wieters.
by PhillyPhanatic on Dec 10, 2008 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But as of right now all signs point to Wieters.
I disagree. You managed to find the only sign anywhere that didn’t point to the Orioles starting Wieters at AAA, and it’s not a direct quote, it’s the reporter wrongly interpreting something MacPhail said.
There are numerous reports out there about how the Orioles are looking to sign a veteran catcher to start on opening day and eventually yield to Wieters. Believe what you want to believe, but Wieters isn’t making the opening day roster.
Though former Orioles prospect Gregg Zaun might seem like a logical stopgap catcher, club officials are still sorting through a list of candidates who might start the season in the O’s lineup and then gradually give way to top prospect Matt Wieters.
As for Wieters, MacPhail said the phenom will get a long look in Spring Training but will likely spend the first few weeks of the season at Triple-A Norfolk. That planned timetable will give Wieters time to acclimate himself to upper-level pitching, but it will also necessitate the Orioles signing a veteran catcher this winter.
MacPhail said that Baltimore would seek out a catcher with solid game-calling skills to mentor his pitching staff, and he said he’s also seeking a veteran who could mesh in as a backup whenever Wieters gets the call. The path is clear for the O’s best prospect, but that doesn’t mean MacPhail wants to rush him before he’s ready.
I just got off the phone with catcher Gregg Zaun, who confirmed that his former club has engaged in talks with his agent, Dan Evans, about bringing him back to Baltimore next season.
As of this writing, the Orioles don’t have a catcher on their 40-man roster, so they are expected to sign a veteran to pair with Wieters. As Jerry Crasnick reported in our Winter Meetings blog, Michael Barrett and Gregg Zaun are on their radar screen, but it seems clear that the majority of at-bats are ticketed for Wieters. Right now, the team is saying this deal doesn’t necessarily mean Wieters may start right away. President of baseball operations Andy MacPhail said Wieters may spend the first few weeks of the season at Triple-A. MacPhail told MLB.com: “It had been our goal to make sure we could introduce Matt into the Major League scene somewhere over the course of the ’09 season. Not necessarily to start right away, but we thought he could handle it eventually after a little time in Triple-A possibly under his belt.” But that could change if Wieters has a big spring.
by dkdc on Dec 10, 2008 9:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OT: dkdc
you still owe me that post you promised to make….
by cowboy4eva on Dec 10, 2008 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Skelton
He seems to be a perfect rule-5 pick for them, no?
The Dodgers won't win a playoff series until the Cool-a-Coo returns.
by mckeeno on Dec 10, 2008 11:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
rule 5
solid guess, although they went with a different catcher. Baltimore selected C Lou Palmisano in the Rule 5 draft today.
by PhillyPhanatic on Dec 11, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just going to go out on a limb
and say I like that pick more than Skelton
by nms on Dec 11, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Palmisano
Was traded to the Astros. MacPhail has been hinting they’d use pick #5 for someone else and sure enough they took him for the Astros and traded him for cash.
by cowboy4eva on Dec 11, 2008 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Skelton
would be a perfect pick-up for any team because he’s talented and a catcher. Not sure why Detroit allowed him to be available. But the O’s wouldn’t be interested in having Matt Wieters be the #1 catcher and a rule 5 pick being the backup. And they won’t be carrying 3 catchers.
If Skeleton is there when the O’s pick, as an O’s fan I hope they take him because he’s at the top of the most talented players available list.
by cowboy4eva on Dec 10, 2008 8:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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