Nolan Ryan has the right idea
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=499547
"Pitchers feel pain sometimes and think they're hurt," Ryan said. "A lot of times, they're not. They have to learn to pitch through it."
Texas pitchers have already had one conditioning camp, in which they learned that running will be a way of life. That's running as in sprints, not leisurely jogs.
The workload will increase in spring training. If the plans hold, the Rangers could return to the four-man rotation, which has been out of favor for more than 30 years.
Fraley goes on to say the Rangers have nothing to lose, a bone of contention I do have with the article. Otherwise, I think that Ryan has the right idea. Pitch counts, innings caps, and the like have become very extreme. This is inhibiting the performance of their teams by giving more innings to lesser pitchers, and while there is some evidence which says that pitch counts should be in place till the age of 25, it certainly doesn't make sense to groom a generation of 5-6 IP starters, does it?
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Does anyone else smell surgical scars?
Texas is going to have an awful lot of busted up prospects soon. The running I’m fine with. Cardiovascular and whatnot. But essentially telling the pitchers they’re just babies? That’s ignorant.
by Lunkwill Fook on
Dec 22, 2008 1:57 PM EST
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It will probably benefit most
but youre going to lose a couple. Interesting idea – and Bill James has been harping on this for a while… not sure if its worth it, though. You lose a lot of value in the guys you burnout…
by alskor on
Dec 23, 2008 12:57 AM EST
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"Does anyone else smell surgical scars?"
I used to, but then people started complaining and the court took their side…
by ozzman99 on
Dec 23, 2008 12:26 PM EST
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"Pitchers feel pain sometimes and think they're hurt"
Does he want them to pitch through it? That’s ignorant. As an A’s fan, I’ll just mention Rich Harden, Dan Meyer.
by NateHST on
Dec 22, 2008 2:35 PM EST
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Rub some dirt on it.
Brilliant idea.
Time to trade all your TX pitchers.
Formerly Uncle Charlie of Minor League Ball
by Yakker on
Dec 22, 2008 2:36 PM EST
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it's about friggin time
been on this bandwagon for yrs now, on some levels this is brilliant, good for him. Why run out or carry a crap #4 or 5 if you don’t have to. Limit THEIR innings, use them as MRs, or groom as high leverage pitchers, since most 4’s & 5’s can’t effectively get thru a line up but once anyway. And if you’re loaded w/ young arms like his system (TB’s, Oak’s, etc.) the more the merrier.
I’m not advocating just throwing them out there blindly mind you, there’s a right & a wrong way to approach this. But by dumping a few starters you can make room for an extra groundball specialist or two, as well as a couple of flamethrowers where only a K or pop up will do. Get them to concentrate on what they do well, and go from there. I’ve been coaching HS ages for almost 10 yrs now, can’t even begin to say how many of these kids can fall outta bed throwin 90 but God forbid if you try to adjust anything. Most college/pro coaches that come by tell me its becoming more & more difficult to change kids’ habits than it used to be. You’re going to lose some to “attrition” regardless, you might as well get some use from them before they saunter off to TJ land. Sorta sounds heartless in print but think about how many arms we go thru after doing “everything right”.
Mulder: Babe Ruth was an alien? Arthur Dales: sure; all the great ones were aliens.
by dew on
Dec 22, 2008 3:01 PM EST
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Now think about how many arms you'll go through during "everything wrong.
by Lunkwill Fook on
Dec 22, 2008 3:22 PM EST
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-1
Wow. That was horrible spelling. AND I forgot the end quote.
by Lunkwill Fook on
Dec 22, 2008 3:23 PM EST
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+1
I agree. I think the most important part about your post is the “I’m not advocating just throwing them out there blindly mind you, there’s a right & a wrong way to approach this.” part.
I am just guessing, but I think that if they do change to a more aggressive approach like this, they should try to get more high school arms. That way you get them younger and have a better chance of changing their mechanics and molding them the way you want to mold them. The negative of all this is that if you expect each SP to pitch 250 innings a year (instead of 5 SPs pitching 200 a year… and yes, I know most #4 and #5 SPs don’t do that anyways) is that you are limited in free agency. There are very few pros out there who can do this on a yearly basis, so you won’t be able to sign a #4 SP from some team after his 6th year because his arm will likely not be ready for the workload you want him to carry.
Now, while I think there is merit in the “pitch through it” part, I think you need to have a very qualified team doctor around. One that can diagnose the difference between fatigue or sore arm and something more serious that should not be pitched through. And you need great pitching coaches in the minors and majors that stress mechanics, so even when a pitcher is tired he doesn’t change his motion to try to get more out of his arm, that’s where I think a lot of injuries happen.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
by Boxkutter on
Dec 22, 2008 3:29 PM EST
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+1
Completely agree with the last part about the mechanics. I know how often players try to change things and try harder so they can get through an inning. This is exactly how the injuries happen.
www.thebaseballuniverse.blogspot.com
by prestonb1291 on
Dec 22, 2008 3:59 PM EST
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They'll be like Soviet Olympians
Two thirds of them will suffer life altering injuries, but the ones that survive will be phenomenal.
by aap212 on
Dec 22, 2008 3:49 PM EST
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+1
haha
www.thebaseballuniverse.blogspot.com
by prestonb1291 on
Dec 22, 2008 3:59 PM EST
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Great idea
If Nolan Ryan could do something, everyone should be able to.
Hopefully this will work just as well as Bob Gibson: Pitching Coach.
by aCone419 on
Dec 22, 2008 4:43 PM EST
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Or...
How everybody pitched for about 40 years (1945-1985).
by GuyinNY on
Dec 23, 2008 10:58 AM EST
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Really?
Everybody in that time frame threw as many pitches as Nolan Ryan?
by aCone419 on
Dec 23, 2008 2:08 PM EST
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Some threw more
Some threw less. Pitches per start? Over a season? Ryan was definitely near the top, but, in a single game? Perhaps you’re forgetting about gems like this one : http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SFN/SFN196307020.shtml
Wouldn’t you like to have starters who could do that again?
by GuyinNY on
Dec 23, 2008 3:57 PM EST
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Equivocation
Nolan Ryan is fifth in all time innings, behind two pre-1900 guys, a knuckleballer, and Walter Johnson. And considering that he’s the career leader in BBs, you can bet his innings were longer than average to. You are being deliberately ignorant; Ryan is one of the, if not the, most rubber armed pitchers in history. And here his is projecting that onto his pitching prospects.
Pitching is not the same as it was is the days of Warren Spahn. Wishcasting isn’t going to change that.
by aCone419 on
Dec 24, 2008 3:23 PM EST
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Fraley wrote this
he’s a complete moron who has a history of writing ridiculous stories with very little basis in reality
Wait 'til the year after next
by NothinG on
Dec 22, 2008 10:40 PM EST
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So?
The article raises a very valid point, which is whether or not we’ve come too far in trying to protect pitchers and, instead, we’ve simply created a game in which far too pitches are thrown by the weakest members of the staff. This article is about how to ameliorate that problem.
by GuyinNY on
Dec 23, 2008 11:00 AM EST
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Yes, we've created it
so lets take our fragile creations and smash them on the dining table why don’t we.
If we really want this to change you can’t do it at the professional level, you have to start streching pitcher’s out when they are young. If we took Neftali Feliz lets say and told him “ok, you’ve been pitching 5 IP per start, next three starts you need to go 6 innings, no excuses, after that you need five straight starts of 7 innings, then at the end of the year you need to be able to go at least seven for the rest of the year”
Then I think its safe to say bye bye to good ole’ Neftali
by Navi's_Navy on
Dec 24, 2008 12:51 AM EST
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Pitching through pain...
is one of the stupidest things anyone can do. If Ryan wants to turn the organization with the deepest pitching talent in baseball into a woodchipper, that’s pretty sweet as a Mariners fan, but terrifying for the Rangers.
by slamcactus on
Dec 23, 2008 1:51 AM EST
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Soreness v. Pain
This is the argument that Ryan is making. He never advocates pitching through pain, but he does advocate learning the difference between regular soreness and actual injury. There are a plethora of stories about how pitchers like A.J. Burnett won’t head out there unless they feel absolutely “100%”. Pitching is an inherently painful thing because it’s so unnatural, and there’s something to be said for learning how to pitch even when you don’t feel great and don’t have your best stuff (so long as you understand this and don’t significantly alter your mechanics in the process, which does lead to injury).
Furthermore, Ryan seems to think an emphasis on sprints will improve pitcher’s durability. It’d suck to be a Mariners fan if the Rangers managed to get 2-3 275+IP, 15CG workhorses out of this.
by GuyinNY on
Dec 23, 2008 11:04 AM EST
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Pitching through Soreness is not really good either
I thought soreness is seen as a herald for future injury and pitching with a sore arm could turn minor wear into an actual injury. This is as stupid as pitching through pain. If you meant fatigue in saying that, then I have no issue with that, some players let the fatigue effect them more mentally than others.
On the sprinting thing, it might help build up lower body strenght to prevent certain injuries and increase durability. However, I do not see pitchers getting rubber arms from doing sprints.
by tdot mariner fan on
Dec 23, 2008 2:46 PM EST
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I'm sure...
that Nolan Ryan is just pulling things out his ass when it comes to pitcher conditioning.
Right?
by DrunkIrish on
Dec 23, 2008 3:26 PM EST
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Clarity
I needed to be clearer. I really meant fatigue, but in my experience, the two are associated. Generally, an arm will hurt a bit after 120 pitches, even if everything is fine. I think that’s the point that Ryan was getting at, and fatigue is really probably a more accurate term.
by GuyinNY on
Dec 23, 2008 4:24 PM EST
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What I like
about this idea Ryan is talking about is that I can’t see anyone pointing to statistics that show that having these kids throw less has prevented injury. Harden was never abused..still got hurt. I think teams will eventually look at the fact that pitchers arms do get hurt and tire regardless of innings. Therefore we should throw out our best four realizing there will be injuries. We sure know that using five or six doesn’t prevent it.
by gpellet41 on
Dec 23, 2008 7:43 AM EST
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Argument Against
This is more of an ethical argument with admittedly very little (meaning none) data to support my argument
so the logic is that pitchers will get injured anyway, so lets just injure more of them, possibly ruining their careers or possibly their lives, for the sake of winning a few more games for your baseball team. I understand that this is a game of statistics, I live for it, but saying that its ok to take people we’ve groomed to be fragile but effective and telling them to maintain effectiveness for longer durations of time despite the blatant risks of health is absurd.
We keep taking steps forward to protecting these players and their arms which we value oh so much (Carlos Silva sure thinks so), and the mindset people must have to think that its ok to put players in danger (yes, tommy john surgery among other surgeries is dangerous regardless of how commonplace it/they have become) is ridiculous in my mind.
Why is it oh so bad to have a generation of starters who only go 4 innings but never get injured? From a business aspect are people really going to say “well he’s not going 7 innings so whats the point?” Sure its a matter of tradition but when tradition and history comes in the way of health then thats, in my opinion, a problem.
by Navi's_Navy on
Dec 24, 2008 12:59 AM EST
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more than enough proof exists
that pitchers can throw 40 starts & the accompanying innings, and can do so effectively. It is a huge waste of resources if a team refuses to explore this option. Take a survey of every pro pitcher – will bet you can’t find but a handful that say their team pitches them “too much”. This isn’t LL or HS ball, players themselves know what they are getting into, they are adults, paid professionals and should bear most of the responsibility for saying if/when they cannot pitch. In reality this is how it is now at almost every amateur level. I don’t have pre set innings limit for everyone, each pitcher I have is different. Unless I see something horribly wrong out there he stays put until he is no longer effective or reaches a predetermined count, which again varies from player to player.
What has to happen (and already has begun in some org.‘s) is taking a different look at what truly makes a pitcher. Not just the prototypical build or stuff but of greater importance is how the kid throws. This is where the latest whats what in mechanics comes in, and the org. that figures this correctly stands to profit in a huge manner. Here kids play baseball yr round. Consequently any bad habits are reinforced to the point they become nearly impossible to change, or at least not without taking two steps back to take one fwd approach. Which in turn doesn’t sit too well w/ Daddy & Mommy because now you’re risking Jr.’s scholarship/pro offer. Because kids are becoming more & more immune to suggestions/changes pro teams need to teach their scouts to be able to identify the pitchers who already throw properly, or at least are close to doing so. This needs to be weighted just as much probably even more so than make up and radar gun readings. Right now it is not, not even close. Scouts (incorrectly) assume their coaches will fix the improper arm angle or the poor follow through. More often than not when this happens the kid begins to lose the “stuff” he was drafted for in the 1st place. But by signing a kid who pitches “correctly” in the first place then you can easily make whatever tweaks you need to advance him along.
Mulder: Babe Ruth was an alien? Arthur Dales: sure; all the great ones were aliens.
by dew on
Dec 24, 2008 2:12 PM EST
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"Here kids play baseball yr round."
And therein lies one of the reasons that pitchers are more brittle these days — instead of playing football or soccer in the fall, keeping fresh mentally and not using up their arms physically, they’re pitching year round. The arm only has so many bullets in it, and too many kids are firing many of theirs before they even hit college.
by Flynn Blake on
Dec 25, 2008 4:21 PM EST
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I hope Texas does it.
And the San Francisco follows their lead.
by Cainer on
Dec 24, 2008 5:41 PM EST
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