Community Prospect List: #83 RUNOFF!
by the pinstripes on Dec 2, 2008 9:22 AM EST
73 comments
After 319 votes it's time for another runoff. The participants are James Simmons & Nick Noonan. Like all previous runoffs the winner will be decided sometime after the 200th vote is cast.
1. MATT WIETERS - C (Baltimore)
2. DAVID PRICE - SP (Tampa Bay)
3. JASON HEYWARD - OF (Atlanta)
4. TRAVIS SNIDER - OF (Toronto)
5. MADISON BUMGARNER - SP (San Francisco)
6. COLBY RASMUS - OF (St. Louis)
7. CAMERON MAYBIN - OF (Florida)
8. TREVOR CAHILL - SP (Oakland)
9. NEFTALI FELIZ - SP (Texas)
10. MATT LAPORTA - 1B/OF/DH (Cleveland)
11. MIKE MOUSTAKAS - 3B (Kansas City)
12. TIM ALDERSON - SP (San Francisco)
13. PEDRO ALVAREZ - 3B (Pittsburgh)
14. RICK PORCELLO - SP (Detroit)
15. DEXTER FOWLER - OF (Colorado)
16. BRETT ANDERSON - SP (Oakland)*
17. DEREK HOLLAND - SP (Texas)
18. ANDREW McCUTCHEN - OF (Pittsburgh)
19. BUSTER POSEY - C (San Francisco)
20. CHRIS TILLMAN - SP (Baltimore)
21. LARS ANDERSON - 1B (Boston)
22. JUSTIN SMOAK - 1B (Texas)
23. THOMAS HANSON - SP (Atlanta)
24. ELVIS ANDRUS - SS (Texas)
25. ANGEL VILLALONA - 1B (San Francisco)
26. JHOULYS CHACIN - SP (Colorado)
27. BRIAN MATUSZ - SP (Baltimore)
28. ERIC HOSMER - 1B (Kansas City)
29. TIM BECKHAM - SS (Tampa Bay)
30. MAX RAMIREZ - C/1B (Texas)
31. JARROD PARKER - SP (Arizona)
32. MICHAEL STANTON - OF (Florida)
33. MAT GAMEL - 3B (Milwaukee)
34. JESUS MONTERO - C (New York-AL)
35. BRETT WALLACE - 3B (St. Louis)
36. JORDAN SCHAFER - OF (Atlanta)
37. WADE DAVIS - SP (Tampa Bay)
38. LOGAN MORRISON - 1B (Florida)
39. CARLOS SANTANA - C (Cleveland)
40. FERNANDO MARTINEZ - OF (New York-NL)
41. JAMES McDONALD - SP (Los Angeles-NL)
42. JEREMY HELLICKSON - SP (Tampa Bay)
43. JOSH VITTERS - 3B (Chicago-NL)
44. YONDER ALONSO - 1B (Cincinnati)
45. TAYLOR TEAGARDEN - C (Texas)
46. FREDDIE FREEMAN - 1B (Atlanta)
47. GORDON BECKHAM - SS (Chicago-AL)
48. BRETT CECIL - SP (Toronto)
49. ALCIDES ESCOBAR - SS (Milwaukee)
50. JORDAN ZIMMERMANN - SP (Washington)
51. CHRIS CARTER - 1B/DH (Oakland)
52. CARLOS TRIUNFEL - SS (Seattle)
53. AUSTIN JACKSON - OF (New York-AL)
54. BEN REVERE - OF (Minnesota)
55. MICHAEL BOWDEN - SP (Boston)
56. TYLER FLOWERS - C (Atlanta)
57. ADRIAN CARDENAS - SS (Oakland)
58. REID BRIGNAC - SS (Tampa Bay)
59. JAKE ARRIETA - SP (Baltimore)
60. JORDAN WALDEN - SP (Los Angeles-AL)
61. MICHAEL MAIN - SP (Texas)
62. WILMER FLORES - SS (New York-NL)
63. MATT DOMINGUEZ - 3B (Florida)
64. MICHAEL SAUNDERS - OF (Seattle)
65. DESMOND JENNINGS - OF (Tampa Bay)
66. CARLOS CARRASCO - SP (Philadelphia)
67. AARON CUNNINGHAM - OF (Oakland)
68. J.P. ARENCIBIA - C (Toronto)
69. GIO GONZALEZ - SP (Oakland)
70. PHILLIPPE AUMONT - SP (Seattle)
71. JEFF SAMARDZIJA - SP/RP (Chicago-NL)
72. MICHAEL INOA - SP (Oakland)
73. AARON HICKS - OF (Minnesota)
74. JEREMY JEFFRESS - SP (Milwaukee)
75. ANGEL SALOME - C (Milwaukee)
76. DANIEL CORTES - SP (Kansas City)
77. GREG HALMAN - OF (Seattle)
78. JACOB McGEE - SP/RP (Tampa Bay)
79. KYLE BLANKS - 1B (San Diego)
80. MARTIN PEREZ - SP (Texas)
81. JULIO BORBON - OF (Texas)
82. NICHOLAS WEGLARZ - OF (Cleveland)
CANDIDATES - Jose Tabata, Gorkys Hernandez, Daryl Jones, Jason Donald, James Simmons, Nick Noonan, Michael Burgess, Kyle Skipworth, Kila Ka'Aihue, Ivan DeJesus, Jonathan Niese & Andrew Lambo
TESTERS - Danny Duffy, David Cooper(76-2%), Michael Taylor(77-1%), Matt Moore(79-2%), Brad Holt(79-1%), Todd Frazier(80-3%), Beau Mills(80-4%), Scott Elbert(80-2%), Vincent Mazzaro(80-3%), Chris Perez(81-5%), Aaron Poreda(81-5%), Chris Coghlan(81-3%), Jeff Niemann(81-2%), Neftali Soto(6%), Adam Miller(4%), Christopher Marrero(3%) & Dellin Betances(2%)
NOTE: I have listed by each tester the last time they were on a poll and the percentage of votes they obtained. This should help us with selecting who should be placed back on the poll etc
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Simmons
I guess I’ll go w/ Simmons but I’m not at all impressed w/ him as a top prospect. Great, his ceiling is that of a #3 starter.
I heard Tim Lincecum will win 1 Cy Young & 11 Tim Lincecums. Question is, how many Cole Hamels will he win?
by the pinstripes on Dec 2, 2008 9:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
yeah I went Simmons also, but sort of the lesser of two evils. Ok not quite that bad. They're both decent prospects. I have several other guys ahead of both though.
by eastin on Dec 2, 2008 9:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree on this
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 2, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not voting
Don’t think either should be on there now.
by discndat on Dec 2, 2008 9:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Vote totals
10:05 EST
Simmons-21 votes-60%
Noonan-14 votes-40%
by demondeaconsbaseball on Dec 2, 2008 10:05 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Noonan
Well, there were others I’d rather have, but I at least have Noonan in my top 100 while Simmons is sitting on the outside looking in.
by thudean on Dec 2, 2008 10:53 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Give us an argument, since no one has bothered yet. I have almost the exact opposite take. I am not a huge Simmons fan, but a 3rd starter innings eater type i could see at back end of top 100, not Noonan. Maybe Noonan will be good, he is young and may improve, seems like he has some speed, etc., but his performance doesn’t warrant more than keeping an eye on him for now.
by wobatus on Dec 2, 2008 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In February
Project Prospect had rated as the 5th best 2B. In their latest list, he’s rated as the 7th best 2B prospect. This guy doesn’t belong in a top 100 at this time.
by slurve on Dec 2, 2008 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Noonan Ranked
I have at 99 (i believe) on my top 100 as a personal favorite, because, well, thats where they go if anywhere. I think the tools will eventually lead to production, although they haven’t yet.
Simmons – I just don’t think he’ll develop enough on his pitches to be an effective starter. He’s not far outside (probably in the next 10-15), but I just don’t see it yet. Its more that given a choice between a personal favorite, where absolutely no logic is involved, and a player where I think he’s fringy in the top 100 anyways, I’m picking the favorite.
Never said I had a good argument :)
by thudean on Dec 2, 2008 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
personal favorite
I had a feeling the “personal favorite” vote was what was driving the vote for Noonan.
by wobatus on Dec 2, 2008 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
70-28 Simmons at 11:37 eastern time
Rise and shine bay area fans. :)
by wobatus on Dec 2, 2008 11:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
simmons
argue his upside and lack of a plus 3rd pitch
but he went straight from the draft to AA, then did well in the AFL
it been said before he had a stretch of struggles in AA last season , but once he had his sleep apnea in control, he got back on track.
is he considered a soft tosser? yet i read he throws an effective low 90’s FB w/ sink which helps against lefties
to be honest, i think mazzaro has better pure stuff…if i had the choice between either…butfor simmons to skip several levels right out of the draft has to take notice
by Asfan4ever723 on Dec 2, 2008 11:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ehh...
An college guy should be starting in High-A or AA – he’s nothing special there.
by slurve on Dec 2, 2008 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
It is fairly rare for a college prospect to jump into AA in his first full season. Only very advanced college players start out that high, most start playing in A+.
by tdot mariner fan on Dec 2, 2008 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
5/31 college first and supplemental round picks started in AA
At least 2 of them were relievers as I recall, maybe 3.
by tdot mariner fan on Dec 2, 2008 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just to clarify
he got drafted in 07…went straight to AA, but as a reliever to limit his workload, then did the same in afl
his first full season was 08, but as a sp
by Asfan4ever723 on Dec 2, 2008 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it was AA
how many pitchers in the last 3 yrs from the draft went right to AA…i’d like to find out actually…anyone know?
a few closer types definitely i recall
by Asfan4ever723 on Dec 2, 2008 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That tells me more about the A's than Simmons
If the Mariners in their infinite prospect rushing wisdom put Aumont in AAA to start next season, that doesn’t make Aumont magically better.
by aCone419 on Dec 2, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
What exactly does it tell you about the A’s? What it tells me is they figured he could handle the competition at that level, and all he’s done is prove them right. The fact that he pitched that well at age 21 in AA does nothing but prove he belongs on this list. His ceiling is Brad Radke, and while I doubt he reaches that level, he has an extremely high floor and should have little trouble being a productive big league pitcher. Not a flashy guy, but a damn safe bet.
"So's your mom"-David Sloane
by gatling on Dec 2, 2008 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Safe?
He’s got two pitches, and unless he develops a third average offering, he will continue to be a two pitch pitcher. In AA, you can still get away with being a two pitch pitcher, but unless he develops a third pitch and the As give him time to develop that pitch, he won’t be anything but a good reliever. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but its not necessarily top 100 material.
That being said, he did have an impressive year and if he continues to improve and gets at least an average breaking pitch, then he’ll be exactly what everyone sees at his peak, a #3 starter. But, until I see it, or really, until someone else sees it and tells me its happening, I can’t get on board.
by thudean on Dec 2, 2008 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"He has two pitches. Unless he develops a third, he'll be two-pitch pitcher!"
Simmons has some performance, some upside, and is far closer to the majors. Even if a third pitch never develops, he could probably have some success as a bullpen guy.
by mraver on Dec 2, 2008 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly my point
Two pitch pitchers rarely make successful starters. So saying that he has a high floor is not necessarily truthful as most Fastball/Change pitchers without a third offering or a plus fastball become relievers. To me, that is as likely an outcome as him becoming a successful starter. Therefore, I can’t see him as a top 100 prospect.
A good example/counterpoint would be another pitcher on the list who is at a similar level – Jon Niese. Jon Niese likely will be in the top 100. He has a plus breaking pitch (curve) and two solid-average offerings with his fastball at similar velocity to Simmons and is a lefty. What Simmons has over him is command, although Simmons’ command without a third offering makes Simmons more hittable. (PS: I am in no way advocating Niese was the proper choice, its just for comparison’s sake)
Is there an argument for Simmons as a top 100 prospect? Sure, but his future is not as certain as some posters are making it out to be.
by thudean on Dec 2, 2008 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your second sentence answered your question to me in your first sentence
It shows that they thought he could survive there and they wanted to challenge him. As a polished control collegian, he probably have dominated A-ball, even if he was destined for AAAA.
That doesn’t answer any of the questions that loom over Simmons’ future. He has been very hittable in AA, even in relief. That is a pretty big red flag for a guy with mediocre stuff.
by aCone419 on Dec 2, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Hittability" has no impact on pitchers' future performance
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 2, 2008 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No impact?
I don’t think it says no impact. I think it says that between two equivalent prospects is the only time when hitability may matter.
Further, the argument created by that blog is that BABIP does not matter in projecting future success or regression. My argument is that his stuff is too much in the zone, therefore making him more hittable than another pitcher. Yes, his BABIP was high (.344), but if you look at the splits, Simmons was much more effective against lefties than righties.
Someone made the argument earlier (Against me no less for another player) that a right handed change-up was useless against righties, and therefore a right handed pitcher needed another pitch to be a successful starter, which argument may or may not have merit (still undecided). Simmons had a .306 BAA against lefties with a .376 BABIP. Granted, the BABIP is high, but .306 is way up there.
His stuff makes is too hittable because he doesn’t have a third pitch, therefore allowing hitters to concentrate on FB/Change, which is an observation outside of BABIP.
by thudean on Dec 2, 2008 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Have you got any evidence that 2-pitch pitchers have higher BABIP than others?
Not saying it doesn’t exist, I just haven’t seen it.
Also, a right handed changeup is useless against righties? Seriously? Has he ever heard of Rich Harden?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 2, 2008 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2 equivalent pitchers
This is one of the criteria I went by to rank Poreda ahead of Simmons. Just think simmons is more hittable, along with Poreda’s lower home run rate. Some pitchers just seem to have a higher hit ratio despite the Ks. Didn’t this come up in the Javier Vazquez trade thread?
by wobatus on Dec 3, 2008 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Meh
A) You are exaggerating/mistating the conclusion of that post.
B) That was an analysis of AAA pitchers, of which Simmons is not one.
by aCone419 on Dec 2, 2008 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK
Which is more likely: that BABIP suddenly and unaccountably goes from useful stat to useless stat when someone crosses the AA/AAA threshold… or that it doesn’t?
I still don’t understand what BABIP is supposedly telling us at low levels. What the hell does high BABIP even mean? That he has a low-90s fastball? Gee whiz, turns out we already frigging knew he had a low-90s fastball. What is it actually predicting? Clearly it isn’t predicting high BABIP in major league baseball.
I could see using it as some kind of triage stat to figure out which amateurs are worth bothering to send a scout to see, but everyone at the AA level has already been scouted on numerous occasions.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 2, 2008 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
BABIP
I understand that it is related, but I wasn’t even talking about BABIP; you brought that stat in. I dont what a high BABIP for a pitcher would mean; but the absence of explanation at the moment is not the same as it being meaningless.
I do think that it is more likely that as a good player reaches higher competition (MLB/AAA) that player’s BABIP should normalize to about league average, but that good players should give up fewer hits at the lower levels. I don’t have an AROM article to back that up, but whatever.
My point was merely that Simmons literally gives up a bunch of hits, whether because of his mediocre strikeout rate or what. How many successful major league pitchers gave up over 10 h/9 in the minors?
by aCone419 on Dec 3, 2008 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Saying a guy gives up more hits is identical to saying he has a higher BABIP if he has the same strikeout rate
Guys with low K rates get weeded out very quickly at the low levels. Simmons doesn’t have a low K rate. It’s not ridiculously high, but it’s not low, either. It’s been close to 8 per 9 innings, which is more than enough for a player with his control.
The ONLY REASON he has given up “a bunch of hits” is that he’s had a high BABIP. And according to the article I cited, players who give up over 10 h/9 in the minors do just fine— as long as they otherwise have good run prevention skills.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2008 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It does if he succeeds there
It’s not just that Simmons was placed directly in AA out of college that is impressive, it’s that he has had immediate success there.
Whether the decision to push a prospect is right or not the resulting performance does tell us more about him. It would not be wise to push Aumont to AAA, but if it did happen and he put a mid 3 ERA witha 4:1 K/BB ratio, I think you would have to bump him up in the rankings.
by DiegoAsFan on Dec 2, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No one seems to mention this
Maybe I’m the only one that find it unimpressive but he has been very very hittable and his K/9 hasn’t been that good. That being said, between the two I voted Simmons.
by groundingout on Dec 2, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
The ONLY thing he has going for him is that he happened to debut in AA and do okay there. People compare him to Slowey, but he gives up way more hits, more walks, and k’s many fewer guys that Slowey ever did. And Slowey was a back end top 100 guy!
by aCone419 on Dec 2, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
but BA ranked simmons among the best control, fastest to majors , etc in that 07 draft
it seemed to be a weak group of college righty’s overall from what i recall so maybe that played into it also
by Asfan4ever723 on Dec 2, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is one of the most ridiculous statements in the history of minorleagueball, and that's saying a lot
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 2, 2008 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really Paul?
One of the most ridiculous? How so? Prove it to me.
by slurve on Dec 2, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What percentage of college players, even good ones, make it to A+ or AA in their first season?
I’d guess less than 2%.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Dec 2, 2008 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Look up
"5/31 college first and supplemental round picks started in AA "
Simmons was a 1st rounder. That number above only represent where they started – it doesn’t represent the ones that started in A+ or how far they made it in their first full season I’m no math major, but it’s a far cry from 2%
by slurve on Dec 2, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hang on, let me "prove" the existence of God first
That should be slightly easier.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2008 3:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Stick it
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2008 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
At least we get the ultimate competition:
A’s ballot stuffers VS Giants’ ballot stuffers
;)
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Dec 2, 2008 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I just voted 13 times for noonan
200 votes, runoff done, noonan still loses by a mile.
Number 84 please, NEXT!
by wobatus on Dec 2, 2008 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
If the next 80 votes come in for Noonan, he’d win by 1.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Dec 2, 2008 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and with our SF fans here
that is certainly possible, but the bay area A’s fans may make up the difference.
If only Noonan played for the Rangers system he’d have a real shot.
I kid, I kid.
by wobatus on Dec 2, 2008 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
holy crap
I’d take five or six other 2B prospects before Noonan.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on Dec 2, 2008 2:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
name them
I don’t have noonan close to 100, but I would like to know who you have ranked at 2b.
Since Utley may start season hurt, Donald may begin year at 2b for the Phils. Jemille Weeks? Uh oh, another Oakland Athletic.
by wobatus on Dec 2, 2008 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i will name them
Jemile Weeks, Chris Coughlin, Johnny Giavotella, Jason Donald. (not necessarily in that order)
I was also thinking Cardenas, but he’s already on.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on Dec 2, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Luis Valbuena...
is as good or better than all of those prospects except maybe Donald.
by slamcactus on Dec 2, 2008 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And...
he’s a better prospect than Noonan, too.
Noonan will help fantasy teams more if he pans out because of baserunning. Valbuena will help his actual teem out much more, and he’s a MUCH better bet to become a regular, seeing as he just put up a .300/.380/.480 line in Double-A and reached the majors as a 22 year old.
by slamcactus on Dec 2, 2008 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like valbuena
He would likely also be more valuable than noonan in my fantasy league, since we also count walks, runs, etc., and stolen bases (offset by caught stealing) is not weighted equally to home runs, etc., since we don’t give points by category ranking.
All depends on how they both pan out of course, and noonan may improve that batting eye, I suppose. But he isn’t top 100 material yet to me.
by wobatus on Dec 2, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Little tidbit...
Valbuena’s currently hitting .287/.336/.532 in the VWL, doing better against much, much older competition. He has patience, contact skills, and some pop for a 2B, and he’s a plus defender. He’s ridiculously overlooked.
by slamcactus on Dec 2, 2008 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i forgot about him
for some reason i thought he already passed the 130 AB threshold for the list.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on Dec 2, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can we close this
And start the next one already?
ProjectProspect.com - Sullivan10x@yahoo.com
by sully10x on Dec 2, 2008 2:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
its over. 100 votes for Jose Tabata!
by byronlhsdrmr on Dec 2, 2008 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really dont understand...
the anti-Noonan sentiment. If you’re talking about his plate discipline, it needs some work, but it’s not a red flag, unlike a couple guys already on our list. If he doesnt get in the Top 100, it wont be a tragedy. But he’s arguably better than more than a few guys on the list already. Particularly, he’s better than Cardenas, who’s at #57. In fact, I dont see a 2B prospect anywhere that I think is better.
by rhd on Dec 2, 2008 2:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Valbuena...
as discussed above, blows Noonan out of the water. Noonan lacks plenty besides plate discipline. He doesn’t have impressive power and isn’t particularly projectable. For a player with his profile to get ranked, he needs to be very, very polished. He’s high risk, medium reward, while Valbuena is extremely low risk, medium to high reward (factoring in that he’s probably around a +10 defender).
by slamcactus on Dec 2, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I Don't See It
You castigate Noonan for his power yet Valbuena himself has never hit more than 11 homers in a season. There aren’t that many doubles on his resume either. I’ll need more proof than 240 ABs to show me that he possesses the power you speak of. You also conveniently neglect to note that Noonan played a full level higher than Valbuena when both were 19. Nick also posted a higher OPS in their year 19 seasons despite playing at a higher level. This season was the first year that Luis managed an OPS over 800 as well. His was horrid in 2007. With two sub-700 marks in his recent history, I consider Valbuena just as high a risk as Noonan.
That said, I have no idea who’s better. I’ve never seen either play. All I’m saying is that Valbuena isn’t the slam dunk you make him out to be and in no way, shape or form does he “blow Noonan out of the water.”
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Dec 5, 2008 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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