Texas Rangers Top 20 Prospects for 2009
by John Sickels on Dec 19, 2008 12:15 AM EST
306 comments
Great tools.
1) Neftali Feliz, RHP, Grade A: I don’t give out Grade As lightly, especially to pitchers. I might go down to A-.
2) Justin Smoak, 1B, Grade A-: I like him better than Alonso and Hosmer, and frankly I can’t believe the Rangers got him.
3) Elvis Andrus, SS, Grade A-: Should I go with B+ here? Athletic, very young for Double-A, I think the Renteria comparisons are apt and Andrus could be better.
4) Derek Holland, LHP, Grade B+: He’s great, but I worry that sometimes a step backward can follow such a breakout. Can he maintain late-season velocity?
5) Taylor Teagarden, C, Grade B: Excellent glove with power, could hit anywhere from .230 to .280 though.
6) Julio Borbon, OF, Grade B: I was too hard on him last year, and I buy into the idea that he can refine his game.
7) Engel Beltre, OF, Grade B: Read the comment below.
8) Michael Main, RHP, Grade B: Impressive Midwest League performance, and if instructional league reports are accurate he is primed for a huge breakout.
9) Max Ramirez, C-1B, Grade B: I love this bat. Glove might not be QUITE as bad as everyone says, but it isn’t good enough for him to rank higher.
10) Martin Perez, LHP, Grade B-: Very young, very high ceiling, will need time.
11) Kasey Kiker, LHP, Grade B-: Almost reduced to C+ but something is holding me back. Not sure what, need to think about it.
12) Neil Ramirez, RHP, Grade C+: Almost a B-. Another young pitcher with breakthrough potential. Another changable grade.
13) Guillermo Moscoso, RHP, Grade C+: Nice pickup from the Tigers. Durability and role are issues.
14) Kennil Gomez, RHP, Grade C+: Breakthrough candidate if his arm is OK. I think he is right up there with some of these other guys who get more press.
15) Blake Beavan, RHP, Grade C+: Loss of velocity is disturbing, but other skills got better.
16) Wilfredo Boscan, RHP, Grade C+: Yet another breakthrough candidate. Low-A is gonna be loaded in '09.
17) Tim Murphy, LHP, Grade C+: Nice pick from 2008 draft, could advance quickly as an inning-eater if his command is there.
18) Wilmer Font, RHP, Grade C+: Huge upside, could easily rank as high as 12 if you prefer youth. Worried about injury nexus and command.
19) Tommy Hunter, RHP, Grade C+: He was rushed, but could still be a nice strike-throwing inning eater. Could rank as high as 12th if you want guys close to the Show.
20) Eric Hurley, RHP, Grade C+: Worried about health here. I held onto him too long as a higher-ranked prospect, but could do better with a change of scenery.
21) Robbie Ross, LHP, Grade C+: Young high school pick with no pro track record yet.
22) Omar Poveda, RHP, Grade C+: In danger of getting lost in the shuffle, but still interesting.
23) Joe Wieland, RHP, Grade C+: Sleeper high school arm from ’08 draft, breakthrough candidate.
24) Jose Vallejo, 2B, Grade C+: Speedster added some pop this year, good glove at second.
Others: Joaquin Arias, INF; Mike Bianucci, OF; Joey Butler, OF; Greg Golson, OF; Marcus Lemon, SS: Warner Madrigal, RHP; Clark Murphy, 1B; Renny Osuna, 2B; Carlos Pimentel, RHP; Timothy Smith, OF; Pedro Strop, RHP; Matt West, 3B; Johnny Whittleman, 3B; Corey Young, LHP.
This is a very deep system and some tough decisions had to be made about who to include. I have room for ONE more player. WHO SHOULD IT BE?? Rangers fans are extremely knowledgeable, so give me your input.
As usual, don’t sweat so much about where the Grade C+ types rank exactly on this list. I'm concentrating on the book right now, and don't spend a lot of time on exact rankings here once I get past the Top 10.
SYSTEM IN BRIEF:
The Rangers have three of the best prospects in baseball, several others who project as major league regulars, and a whole bevy of Grade C+ type guys, some of them breakout candidates for higher grades next year. I love the way they have run this farm system in recent years: they have mixed raw and polished talent in the draft, and have made a big push in
Reports on these guys and over 1,000 others can be found in the 2009 Baseball Prospect Book. Pre-order for January 31st shipping now!
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Great List
And an absolutely great system. Glad to see Smoak getting some props. Who do you like better John, Smoak or Lars? Is whoever that is the best first base prospect in baseball?
by brok515 on Dec 19, 2008 12:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to see your thoughts about
Clark Murphy.
by FirebatM3 on Dec 19, 2008 12:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Murphy
I’d like to see him as the player added to the book, personally. He’s gonna mash next year.
by naropean on Dec 19, 2008 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Looks like he can really hit..is his D as bad as they say ? I dont really know a ton about him except what you can read with the stats..anyone have more insight?
by NYSOX on Dec 19, 2008 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
from what I've read
He seems to be at least decent at 1B. I don’t think he’s bad defensively there or anything. He’s played a bit of outfield, but he’s too slow to play anywhere other than first.
by naropean on Dec 19, 2008 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Klesko...
…is the comp I’ve heard of. I always felt the Braves mismanaged his career, moving him to left field, not letting him hit against lefties. Judging from his minor league stats, it looked as if he could’ve become an elite hitter. All water under the bridge now…
by royshowell on Dec 23, 2008 10:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Font
I’ll be especially interested in Font’s write-up in the book. He won’t turn 19 until next May, and if he can stay healthy, I could see a major breakout in the next couple years. Really like him.
by rdf8585 on Dec 19, 2008 12:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
wow
17 our of 24 are pitchers. Numbers 10-23 are pitchers. But no Mitch Moreland? :(
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on Dec 19, 2008 12:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Eh
Looks good, but I’d drop Feliz and Main a notch each. Fastball alone doesn’t make a grade A prospect. As for Main, a little concerned about his durability. I think he might profile best as a reliever down the line.
Like the rest of the grades a lot.
by mrkupe on Dec 19, 2008 12:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
He has 1 freak injury
that wasn’t arm, knee or elbow related.
How is this a "durability conern?
by FirebatM3 on Dec 19, 2008 12:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just another blogger thinking he knows about our prospects,
but he doesn’t.
The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ
by NYTXFAN on Dec 19, 2008 5:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, geez
Somebody else mentioned his history before I could. And a whopping 58 innings this year doesn’t make me feel better on that, although I’ll say that it doesn’t really make me feel worse, either.
I don’t really get the thin skin over a decent-but-not-great (at least at this point) prospect like Main. I said I was a “little concerned” and immediately it means I’m clueless. If I said the guy was amazing and a guaranteed breakout player next year, you wouldn’t have any complaints whatsoever.
by mrkupe on Dec 19, 2008 10:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's been injured twice
He was injured before the draft.
by aCone419 on Dec 19, 2008 9:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What
were the injuries?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Dec 19, 2008 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
injuries
He had a cracked rib this year and in tendinitis in his junior year of HS.
Tendinitis in his rotator cuff cost him most of his junior season, but he recovered to lead DeLand High to the state final four and did so again this year.
http://www.newbergreport.com/minordetails/
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on Dec 19, 2008 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, fractured rib
not an issue that recurs
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 10:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Every injury is predictive of other injuries
although the extent varies from extremely predictive for, eh, hamstring pulls, to not very predictive for, as you say, broken ribs.
Still says something about a player’s bone strength and resilience. I get your point, but there is never any truly “harmless” injury, especially for pitchers.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 19, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does this include
Chad Billingsley’s injury?
by groundingout on Dec 19, 2008 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sammy sosa’s sneeze?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 19, 2008 7:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure... if nothing else,
we now know that Chad Billingsley is not one of those types whose bones never break.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 20, 2008 2:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
I never knew there were actually players out there who’s bones were unbreakable.
by slurve on Dec 22, 2008 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
…only drew meyer.
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 22, 2008 10:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Feliz's fastball
is really, really, really good. He’s also very young and his secondary pitches are promising. Its more about him just needing to spend the year getting used to them.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 12:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Daniel Cabrera’s fastball is really, really good too.
his secondary pitches are promising.
is another way of saying his secondary stuff isn’t there yet. Grade A is too high.
by scstrato on Dec 19, 2008 2:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nah
BA has always had good things to say about his secondary stuff.
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 2:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
His secondary stuff looks very good… his command/control of it is still an issue, from what Ive heard. Thats different from a guy who needs to develop a change up.
by alskor on Dec 19, 2008 2:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and scout have rated his fastball at a straight 80
a true 80 ranked fastball is a once in a generation rank (every 10+ years) roger clemons didnt have an 80 coming out of the minors. Randy Johnson was a true 80.
they arent common
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
by Jayslick on Dec 19, 2008 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Cabrera has ever been accused of having command of his fastball.
Go Rangers!
by rooster on Dec 19, 2008 3:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn’t referring to command, more so how many people went nuts over how hard he threw. You are right though, it was a poor comparison overall.
by scstrato on Dec 19, 2008 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why is it too high?
He could reach the big leagues this year with just his fastball and probably dominate.
The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ
by NYTXFAN on Dec 19, 2008 5:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That would be a big mistake. I say there’s less than 5% chance he could dominate in the majors right now (see Edinson Volquez).
Look, i’m not trying to take anything away from Feliz. He absolutely has the tools to be great. All i’m saying is that his secondary stuff and command are not refined enough to warrant the grade at this point.
by scstrato on Dec 19, 2008 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not that I disagree
but when Volquez first got the majors, the first few times really, his FB command was below average at best.
by groundingout on Dec 19, 2008 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
triple digits with command not an A?
Mass X Acceleration = Force
by SteveP on Dec 19, 2008 2:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Except he doesn’t have command and it’s arguable that he hits triple digits.
by scstrato on Dec 19, 2008 2:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you dont know what you're talking about do you? lol
never seen him pitch, but you think you know everything about him…
by slash on Dec 19, 2008 3:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I have seen him pitch. Good job of staying on the subject!
by scstrato on Dec 19, 2008 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well coming from someone who has seen him pitch, i was pretty sure you havent
Because almost everybody who has seen him pitch, doesn’t come away saying the things you do, even if you saw him in one of his “off” outings in Frisco like the one I saw……STILL, considering his age and his stuff and skipping a whole level, there’s no way you see him pitch and come away negative like you are…..
His secondary pitches are good, the one game that i saw when it was iffy, he just didn’t control it as good as he usually does, but the stuff was still sharp….This is considering when he only had to rely on his Fastball his whole life till this past year and he skipped a whole level and was pitching in AA as a 20 year old…..Also if you’ve seen him pitch, there is NO QUESTION he can hit triple digits, not to mention look like he’s warming up while doing it, which it the most impressive part of it….so smooth…
sorry if you have seen him pitch, wasn’t trying to insult your intelligence or anything… Just everybody who has seen him pitch has fallen in love with him, he’s one of those special players… I just don’t understand why you have such a negative bias toward him
by slash on Dec 27, 2008 2:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Frisco
I saw him pitch there 3 times. He worked 95-98 and hit 100 or higher 10-15 times. And Frisco is not the only place he did that. So I would replace the world arguable with the word confirmed.
by Michael Cave on Dec 19, 2008 10:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not going to get into a debate over “stadium” guns, which is what I’m assuming you are referring to. How about we both just agree that he throws hard, very hard? Fair enough?
Even though my D Cabrera comp wasn’t the best, the overall point still applies. Throwing hard isn’t everything. I’d like to see better refinement in his secondary stuff and command.
by scstrato on Dec 19, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There were numerous
reports that had Feliz at 100 on scouts’ guns in Frisco.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 19, 2008 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, but of course
he’s not going to pitch at that velocity. But he does have a lot of life on a really fast fastball. For someone with that kind of raw velocity and movement, I’d say his command is pretty decent considering his age.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Dec 19, 2008 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course not
but like Jayslick said above — it’s rated as an 80. The point is it is an incredible pitch.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 19, 2008 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Its an incredible pitch
that few can truly compare to. Upper 90s velocity, good movement, good command of the pitch, and of course that he throws it pretty effortlessly. This isn’t a guy that is tearing his arm up throwing at those speeds.
And the main problem with his secondary pitches is that he tips them.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Um, isn't that kind of a problem?
Secondary pitches are near-useless when a hitter knows they’re coming.
If the “tip” is something silly like grabbing his cap before he throws a curveball, that’s presumably something that could be beaten out of him, but if it’s more profound like his arm noticeably slowing down, that’s a serious dock on his ability.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 19, 2008 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this
especially for a starter big league hitters will adjust the second or third time around to a pitcher who can only throw one pitch for strikes without tipping it… no matter how good that one pitch is.
Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom
by designatedforassignment on Dec 19, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The tip
is supposedly his arm angle when he throws a breaking pitch. I’m not too concerned about that as he is still very young. IMO, the important thing is that he is able to effectively throw the pitch and that the pitch tipping isn’t something he’s been doing all the time (which shows he is working on it).
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Marcus Lemon
or Mitch MOreland in the 25th slot… Im kinda suprised you didnt rank Lemon as he’s seems to be the type of player you’d like alot. 20 yr old SS in high A with a very good batting eye whose OPS is over 800.
Anyways, i like the way you ranked them, im suprised that you gave Andrus an A- though, kinda thought he was a lock to get a B or B+.
by blalock84 on Dec 19, 2008 12:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I also curious
where would recent graduates like Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Chris Davis and Matt Harrison rank?
by FirebatM3 on Dec 19, 2008 12:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Id also
ask why you gave Feliz an A and Holland a B+? Seems like they they’d only be a one grade seperation, but maybe not.
by blalock84 on Dec 19, 2008 12:43 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm betting its because
Holland was such a huge breakout this year. If he shows this same stuff to start next season, many people will bump him up on their prospect lists.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 12:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One thing I haven't heard about on Holland is speculation on whether the change the Rangers
made to his mechanics when he throws the slider had a positive impact on his fastball velocity. There has been a lot of talk about his improved arm strength, but I wonder if reduced strain is also part of it. The comment I remember about his motion when he threw the slider prior to turning pro was that it looked painful.
Go Rangers!
by rooster on Dec 19, 2008 12:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The other thing that doesn't seem to get talked about
is how that slight adjustment in his arm slot improved his slider significantly this season.
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 1:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
25, either Pedro "Jacque" Strop or everybody's favorite Lemon
I can’t wait for the day that Macumba is added to the list. In fact, maybe he should be #25, based on nothing but his nickname. (Leonel De Los Santos is his real name.)
Go Rangers!
by rooster on Dec 19, 2008 12:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
is he asking who should be #25?
Or is he asking who else to include in the book other than the top-24 and the others listed below? Because I read it as the latter.
by naropean on Dec 19, 2008 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
No offense Mr. Sickels but why the conservative approach (for whatever reason) with Oaklands list, then this?? I have no problem admitting that Texas probably has the better system, but I just don’t see it being that big of a gap, at all. Cahill and Anderson don’t grade out higher then B+’s yet Feliz gets a straight A?? This list makes it look as though Texas’s system is quite a bit better, and I just don’t see that big of a difference. Texas gets the nod, but I think some of the A’s guys’ were a little low and some of the guys on this list are a little high. Anyways, I don’t want to blow this thing up into a huge argument and take anything away from Rangers fans. Absolutely great looking system, and a bright future for you guys. Its gonna be fun watching Oakland and Texas play a lot over the next few years. A lot of talent coming up for both sides.
by JPShark on Dec 19, 2008 12:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
pretty even
He gave 15 Oakland players a B- or higher but no A players. Texas only got 11 players at B- or higher but 3 A players. I think it is pretty even.
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on Dec 19, 2008 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess
it was just the top 3 that caught my eye and threw me off a little. The A’s top 3 guys were 2 B+’s and a B so it makes it look like a pretty substantial difference but I can see it going either way. I still give Texas the nod as the top system going into 09’.
by JPShark on Dec 19, 2008 12:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agree
I like Feliz, but by giving him an A- to me would mean that Cahill, Anderson, and maybe even a healthy Gio Gonzalez would also have to rate that same grade.
Like the list though. But…bottom line…if I were a Rangers fan, I wouldn’t get all excited about all these great arms when making it to the show simply means you’re going to get shelled in that park.
by Aslan on Dec 19, 2008 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You know
good pitchers don’t get rocked just because of the park. Crappy pitchers can get rocked because of the park — but generally, if you’re a good pitcher you can still have success in Arlington. There’s plenty of guys that don’t get shelled there.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 19, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
see the visiting staffs.
And Asian, if John sees Feliz as the second best pitching prospect behind Price, why would Cahill, Anderson, and a healthy Gio Gonzalez get the same grade.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"A healthy Gio Gonzalez" rates an A-?
I don’t even know where to begin with this. For starters, healthy? He didn’t miss a start last season.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 19, 2008 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gio Gonzales??
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
by tyd3311 on Dec 19, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well this shows a fundemental misunderstanding of baseball.
Like the fact thta there are worse hitters parks and that pitchers should be judged in the context of where they pitch and that the best pitcher in the world will still generally be better in a hitters’ park than every other pitcher in the same park would be.
In other words: there’s no reason to care much about the park.
by philkid3 on Dec 21, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
grades
I am likely going to boost Anderson and Cahill to A-, so that should cover part of your complaint, lol.
by John Sickels on Dec 19, 2008 12:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
You
don’t have to do anything to please me, it was simply a question and thanks for the response.
by JPShark on Dec 19, 2008 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
grades
Oh, I was just explaining…I had made that decision a couple of days ago.
by John Sickels on Dec 19, 2008 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So
does Feliz end up the #2 pitching prospect behind Price then?
"So's your mom"-David Sloane
by gatling on Dec 19, 2008 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the reply.
"So's your mom"-David Sloane
by gatling on Dec 19, 2008 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think an A-
is well deserved for those guys, and I’d probably have Feliz at A-, too. Then again, every time I watch video or see Feliz pitch the movement on the fastball is just as thrilling as the velocity. Ok, I’ve convinced myself, keep him an A.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Dec 19, 2008 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yea
i agree, every time i see Feliz pitch its just rediculous how unhittable his Fastball looks, and then you watch him through the ball and it looks like he’s just playing toss with a kid.
by blalock84 on Dec 19, 2008 1:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It is surprising
…how effortless his delivery is. Surprising may even be an understatement.
by FuturePants on Dec 19, 2008 10:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to lean towards B+ for Andrus. I guess I’m surprised Max Ramirez is only a B and not a B+. The bat seems good enough to me to be a B+. Surprised that Neil Ramirez wasn’t a B- or that Lemon wasn’t a C+ either.
"So's your mom"-David Sloane
by gatling on Dec 19, 2008 12:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
My guess is that
Ramirez hit very well in AA, but really struggled in AAA and the bigs. Small sample sizes, but it is still a little disturbing. Plus, given that the glove will likely never play well enough to be a full time C, his bat will have to carry him to the bigs and be a plus, plus tool. The likelihood of a prospect like this never panning out is much greater than others.
by guru4u on Dec 19, 2008 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He jumped from
AA to the bigs for a cup of coffee as an injury replacement and got injured in AAA. No one is worried about his hitting.
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 10:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd switch
Kiker and Ramirez, in both rank and grade, personally.
You’ll get flack for the Andrus grade but I think most here rely far too much on OPS and other stats. This isn’t fantasy baseball and scouts and coaches all love this guy. I’ve seen him play and that grade is justified.
Beltre, last year I thought you graded him a tad too low, this year a tad too high. I’d have gone B- considering he made no progress in plate discpline. If his ceiling wasn’t sky high I’d say straight B.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Dec 19, 2008 12:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'd move Andus to B+, and Feliz, Main and Holland all to A-. Perez to B
Nah, noob.
by Brian Thomas on Dec 19, 2008 8:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Borbon as is?
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
by tyd3311 on Dec 19, 2008 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Main
I don’t see how you can make him an A- right now, unless you put just a ton of weight on the reports coming out of Arizona in October.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2008 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
58 innings + Instructs helium do not an A make…
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i see your point
but in ranking them in terms of the guys I would be most hesitant to trade out of the org, I would only have Feliz, Holland and Smoak above Main, despite Main’s lack of a strong minor league track record at this point and based purely on what scouting reports indicate as his ceiling. By that measure, Perez would rank much higher as well.
by clark on Dec 19, 2008 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thats a different ranking system though
Especially for the Rangers, your not gonna wanna trade a pitcher.
by groundingout on Dec 19, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Atlanta
Seeing all those former Braves makes me want to cry…
…But just because I’m greedy and have prospect lust.
by sunking1056 on Dec 19, 2008 12:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
but you got 6 months of tex?
heh…
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
by Jayslick on Dec 19, 2008 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rangers are drafting well and working the Latin American circuit well. as you point out, but
JD also traded well in 2007. Four of the top 10 were acquired at the 2007 trade deadline. Add in Moscoso and that’s 1/3 of the top 15, plus two graduates in Saltalamacchia and Harrison, from trades over the past two seasons.
Go Rangers!
by rooster on Dec 19, 2008 12:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Daniels do the Danks/Masset for McCarthy trade in 2007 (or very late 2006)
That trade was baaaaad.
by thejd44 on Dec 19, 2008 3:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It was a reasonable risk that turned out bad.
Chris Young and Adrian Gonzalez for Eaton and Otsuka was baaaaaad.
Go Rangers!
by rooster on Dec 19, 2008 3:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At the time it wasn't terrible,
We wanted to compete and Young has durability issues so a full season in Texas probably would never happen. AGon was the victim of Tex manning first. We got an experienced pitcher(who flat out sucked) and a serviceable relief pitcher for a couple years.
The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ
by NYTXFAN on Dec 19, 2008 5:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When you look at old posts at Ranger websites
…and see 99% of Ranger fans hating the deal right from the start, it’s a bad trade.
by TRanger on Dec 19, 2008 7:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone hated the Chris Young deal...
….very few people had anything negative to say about the Danks deal. Bottom line: Danks’ best pitch is the cutter which he learned in Chicago. He simply was not the same pitcher for us.
by FuturePants on Dec 19, 2008 10:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
and thats is shown by his stats his first yr in a CWS uniform
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 19, 2008 10:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I agree
I was referring to the Chris Young deal as the extremely horrible one with no redeeming factors at the time it was made because NYTXFAN was trying to say it wasn’t an open and shut case, when from my memory nobody liked the deal at the time.
When the Danks/McCarthy deal happened I wasn’t too fond of it but it wasn’t an obvious loss right when it happened. I know quite a lot of analysts at the time even said the Rangers won the deal.
by TRanger on Dec 20, 2008 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Link me to the cognoscenti panning the trade AT THE TIME IT WENT DOWN
Please.
Nah, noob.
by Brian Thomas on Dec 19, 2008 8:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think more people hated it because Young was a Dallas boy
rather than his actual skills and performance. Ranger fans have a hard on for guys who either grew up or live in DFW. Personally I don’t get it. Id rather have the best player regardless of their hometown. Some people think that guys will turn down alot of money to play for their hometown team. That doesn’t happen not when you are talking about millions of dollars.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Dec 19, 2008 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with you
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 19, 2008 7:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
While Ranger fans may have a thing for hometown boys
I think the main issue at the time was the fact the Rangers gave up 5 years of Chris Young for 1 year of Eaton. With the talk Eaton had at the time of the trade nobody expected Eaton to resign. So giving up 5 years of a guy who actually had a bit of success at Arlington (hey slighty below league average is a huge success here) for one year of a guy who didn’t look any better statistic wise just didn’t seem to make any sense.
by TRanger on Dec 20, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was referring to the Danks deal (thejd44's baad hindsight)
Plenty of people panned the Young deal at the time.
Nah, noob.
by Brian Thomas on Dec 21, 2008 7:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm kinda surprised
To see Blake Beavan all the way down at #15 here, considering the numbers he put up in spite of his velocity loss. Also, that’s a huge compliment to Kennil Gomez there at #15.
Nice job Mr. Sickels.
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
by lonestarJon on Dec 19, 2008 12:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Er
Meant to say Gomez at 14, obviously.
"I´d like to apologize in advance for anything that I may say or do that could be construed as offensive as I slowly go NUTS."
by lonestarJon on Dec 19, 2008 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
#25, Strop easily
3 plus swing and miss pitches: 93-96fb, splitter, slider. Ranked as Co’s #9 prospect on the 7th ranked system coming into 08 (BA). According to one report, the Rangers expect him to be throwing off the mound by 3/1 and his rehab is going accordingly.
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 12:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think so, too
and on the list of ways the Rangers are adding prospects, John should add stealing them out from under the noses of other teams (Madrigal, Strop). :)
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Dec 19, 2008 12:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep gotta go Strop for 25
The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ
by NYTXFAN on Dec 19, 2008 5:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
#25
Gotta be Matthew West. Dude hit .400…gotta be room for that in the top 25.
by Aslan on Dec 19, 2008 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
in what universe did West hit 400?
try sub 260
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Aslan
I think Aslan may be a crazy person.
by aCone419 on Dec 19, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no just stupid
The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ
by NYTXFAN on Dec 19, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my mistake
I looked at the wrong column in his stat line.
I don’t know if that justifies “crazy” and/or “stupid”…but I guess Rangers fans are not as “clasy” as they are “knowledgable”.
by Aslan on Dec 19, 2008 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cleveland?
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
by tyd3311 on Dec 21, 2008 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So immediately after dropping Hosmer a grade
you go with the A- for Smoak?
I like Smoak more than Hosmer… but still… I read the Hosmer reduction as a rethinking of the grading curve… and it seems that Smoak would be as affected as Hosmer. Not that they are a package or anything, but they do have quite a bit in common…
by alskor on Dec 19, 2008 12:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Im not saying I disagree, mind you
Im just curious to understand your thinking.
The curious grades to me so far were Hosmer and Shooter Hunt, and you downgraded both… that made a lot of sense to me. Smoak is a much safer bet than Hosmer in many ways… but Id like to hear more about what separates them, if you get a chance.
Thanks again
by alskor on Dec 19, 2008 12:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
are your disagreeing with yourself?
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
I dont really have a problem with either grade for either guy. Im certainly not taking the position that either guy should be “X” grade or both should be “x” grade.
I just expected Smoak to get a B- after I saw Hosmer downgraded. I like Smoak better to begin with, but Id like to hear someone else’s rationale for it. I could make the case for either guy to be an A- or a B+… and I dont have strong feelings either way…
by alskor on Dec 19, 2008 1:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Smoak
Great prospect out of HS as well, but 3 years of premium college performance as well. The track record is much longer and even more impressive.
by mrkupe on Dec 19, 2008 1:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right
Thats pretty much my thinking. Many of the things they have in common are superficial. BUT is the issue one of risk vs ceiling? Smoak is clearly less risky. I do tend to be very conservative judging prospects… I always go with the lower risk guy… and I sort of see that as a weakness in my evaluations, so I like to hear other viewpoints.
by alskor on Dec 19, 2008 1:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
RIsk vs Ceiling
Isn’t the ceiling the same in this case?
by rwperu34 on Dec 19, 2008 1:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ceilings
With 18 year-old Boras advisees, there is no such thing as a ceiling, especially when it comes to price tags.
by ILuvDaBush on Dec 19, 2008 4:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
-1
College bat over HS bat. Smoak was Hosmer 3 years ago out of HS with legitimate college ABs.
by bryeic on Dec 20, 2008 8:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not so much.
Smoak was a great prospect out of high school, but he was signable for top of the first round money and if I’m not mistaken the A’s were “only” offering around a million dollars. So while he was well regarded, not nearly as well regarded as Hosmer at the same stage.
Tools Whore
Sign Bonds!
by Tyler on Dec 20, 2008 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not so much.
Smoak was a great prospect out of high school, but he was signable for top of the first round money and if I’m not mistaken the A’s were “only” offering around a million dollars. So while he was well regarded, not nearly as well regarded as Hosmer at the same stage.
Tools Whore
Sign Bonds!
by Tyler on Dec 20, 2008 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
John
Why do you think Hurley “could do better with a change of scenery.”?
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on Dec 19, 2008 12:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Probably has a lot to do with the fact that he will always be a flyball pitcher.
by LiamP on Dec 19, 2008 12:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Flyballs are
not dangerous… unless they go too far. :)
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on Dec 19, 2008 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kiker vs Poveda
Dont’ get the vast casm between them…Poveda finished the year with a sub-3 era in his last 9 starts and Kiker’s problems stemmed in part because he was not in good physical condition for the season. I’d say there is more reason to be concerned with Kiker though Poveda’s BB/9 will need to improve next yr if he is to take the next step
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 12:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Question regarding Poveda
I’m curious about Poveda’s drop from a B last year to a C+ this year. Despite battling minor injuries for the first time in his career and facing the Cal League as a 20 year old, Poveda improved his K-rate to 9.6/9IP while adding a curveball that was beginning to develop into a swing-and-miss pitch by the end of the season. Adding that third pitch to what was already a very effective fastball/change-up combo should enable a very smooth transition to AA. Poveda’s ERA increased to 4.47, but that was still good enough to place him in the Top25 among pitchers who logged at least 80 innings in the Cal League in 2008. Was the increased walk rate (nearly 4/9IP compared to 2.2/9IP in two previous seasons) responsible for the drop or was it just more a matter of how Poveda compared to other prospects in teh system?
by spurdynasty on Dec 19, 2008 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
like it or not
every prospect in a system is going to be looked at relative to the other prospects in that system.
That is an impossible bias to remove.
by clark on Dec 19, 2008 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This list could use a little more Lemon
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 1:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
yep
definitely seems like he deserves a C+. I could go on and on about the marginal guys that could deserve a C+ or B- in this system, but like SIckels said, its really just what you prefer. But, yea, if i had to pick a 25th guy it’d be lemon.
by blalock84 on Dec 19, 2008 1:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lemon is not 25
over guys like Diamond, Madrigal, Strop or even Pimentel. All of these players have much higher ceilings
Wait 'til the year after next
by NothinG on Dec 19, 2008 11:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Diamond isn't that good
Repeated injury concerns, never had any control, and he is definitely getting to that point where its about results instead of just potential.
As for the other 3, 2 are RP which I just don’t feel comfortable ranking that high unless they are top closer prospects. Strop also has serious injury concerns. As for Pimentel, he’s got a great ceiling but is just an 18 year old who hasn’t pitched full season ball yet. Ceilings are great, but there are tons of 18 year olds with great ceilings in short season ball. Lemon should be starting the year in AA as a 20 year old. That is worth a lot IMO.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Strop has serious swing and miss pitches
Lemon is projected as a backup. I don’t rate backups that high. He’s not that successful at stealing bases. He doesn’t have power. What would his role be as a MLB player?
Strop, Madrigal, Diamond and PImentel will have more impact therefore they get a better grade imo
Wait 'til the year after next
by NothinG on Dec 19, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And Strop still has serious injury issues
Diamond is a 25 year old who has never pitched past AA and still hasn’t had much success in AA. He’s got serious control issues that the TJ surgery didn’t help out with. Pimentel is only 18 years old without pitching in full season ball yet. You’ve got to have some out of this world potential to be ranked in the top 25 of this system without proving much.
I like Madrigal, but I’m still putting Lemon ahead of him. Lemon might be projected as a back-up, but his plate discipline is great and he is still very young for his level. He probably doesn’t have a future here, but he can be a starting caliber SS for plenty of teams.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want Lemon
on my Hamburger
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're kidding
I thought we were over the guys with the weird names craze.
by FirebatM3 on Dec 19, 2008 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure
we have a guy with that last name too.
by FirebatM3 on Dec 19, 2008 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Holy shit!
disagreements about the 25th best prospect in the system!
Lemon is an interesting guy because there’s a lot of discussion about him, what he can do and what exactly his ceiling is. How should we treat his uptick in slugging? His abnormally high for Cal League LD%, will his walk rate continue to perform well? How will he do defensively at 2B? Lemon is a prospect with legitiamte questions and generate legitimate discussion – that’s why people want him on the book.
Your viewpoints about his status as a prospect is already known, but some of us would like to hear something from a prospect guru about his chances. Either give more warrant or kindly move onto another soapbox.
by FirebatM3 on Dec 19, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
one sentence hardly makes a soapbox, but your paragraph does
calm down
I think Lemon has a chance to propel next year if he has a breakout year, but right now I see him as a backup role player.
Wait 'til the year after next
by NothinG on Dec 19, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Congratulations
for having opinions. The fact that you have them doesn’t mean other people’s interest in settling what has been a pretty legitimate debate is without merit.
by FirebatM3 on Dec 19, 2008 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand you need to settle a debate, but it won’t be settled in Sickels book. It’ll be settled on the field. Next year, the jump to AA will settle the type of prospect Lemon is. I think he has potential, just not the same type of potential as some of our other guys. We’ll see after next year.
Wait 'til the year after next
by NothinG on Dec 19, 2008 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
Top 29 as ranked by LSB community.
Go Rangers!
by rooster on Dec 19, 2008 1:07 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I guessed you would only seperate
Feliz and Holland by 1 grade, not 2. Then again, if Holland continues this pace, he will be an A pretty soon.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Dec 19, 2008 1:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, once Nolan gets all of those young pitcher running wind sprints after throwing BP, they'll all be A's.
Go Rangers!
by rooster on Dec 19, 2008 1:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And after he makes them go 100 pitches +
per outing.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Dec 19, 2008 1:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You mean he'll trade them to the A's? Good.
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 19, 2008 3:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
John
Where do you rank the Rangers’ system overall compared to others? Is it 1?
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Dec 19, 2008 1:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good lord...if there's another one better than this, I'd like to see it!
3 A or A- grades and 24 ranked prospects!
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Dec 19, 2008 4:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Last year
the Rays had 3 guys with A grades (as in not A-): Price, Longoria and Jake McGee, and another 3 with B+s. I think you’re right that the Rangers will be #1 this year, but John at least doesn’t seem to think that they’re as strong as the Rays were last year
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
by OldProspects on Dec 19, 2008 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not bad though
for a system that hasn’t constantly been drafting in the top 5 picks of the draft.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I'm not criticizing them at all
Merely tempering the praise
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
by OldProspects on Dec 19, 2008 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know
I just wanted to point that out since Tampa Bay had such an amazing system a year ago. Outside of having all those top picks, its going to be tough for a system to be graded that well.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Braves preliminary list was close
The Rangers have them beat with 3 A’s but both lists have the first B coming in at #5. The Braves had 13 guys above C+, Rangers had 11. And the Braves had 25 ranked prospects. Of course we have to wait for the final Braves list but it’s comparable. What’s scary and ironic is two of the Rangers 3 A’s came from the Braves system, not to mention another B with Max Ramirez.
by ajones2522 on Dec 19, 2008 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ramirez came from cleveland
Wait 'til the year after next
by NothinG on Dec 19, 2008 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Atlanta originally
He was traded from Atlanta to Cleveland in the Bob Wickman deal, then from Cleveland to Texas in the Kenny Lofton deal.
by Ophidian on Dec 19, 2008 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Borbon
I like where you ranked him, im probably higher than most Ranger fans on him. He seems to be a guy who even without a high walk rate can be an above-average CF both Defensively and offensively. Also, i dont see much of a flameout risk, his floor seems pretty high. He’s almost guaranteed to be the Ranger’s Starting CF for a while and be able to play at least at an above replacement player level. If he can refine his game just a little bit, Borbon could end up being a very dynamic leadoff hitter, leaving his ceiling at an all-star type player level.
by blalock84 on Dec 19, 2008 1:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
C'mon
Feliz #1? Sorry, but his secondary stuff and command are too much of a question mark. Smoak at #2 I can understand. Holland should be #1, not even a question. He has much more discipline than Felize and his secondary pitches are superior at this point in their careers. Andrus, couldn’t bust a wet paper bag with one of his hits. 90 errors in three seasons? Power and plate discipline are serious question marks. When are we going to make him produce?
by scstrato on Dec 19, 2008 1:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Holland has more discipline, etc.
At this point in their careers? Holland is a year and a half older. Feliz has lots of time left on the developmental clock for both his secondary stuff (which did make progress in 2008) and his command. And he does hit 100, that wasn’t some jacked up minor league fan friendly radar gun, it was a scout’s gun that caught that reading. Now he won’t pitch at that velocity, of course, that was excitement in his first AA start. But his fastball does have terrific life, and the delivery is smooth and easy.
Personally, I’d still put Feliz at an A- until he sharpens his secondary stuff, but I really don’t see how you can question his #1 ranking in the system. I can see touting Holland or Smoak as #1, but not because Feliz doesn’t deserve it.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Dec 19, 2008 2:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Feliz bb/9 rate
in High A was 3. That jumped to 4.5 bb/9 in AA, but when a guy still has a 3:1 K:BB ratio that’s pretty good. He was nearly unhittable with a .201 baa and when they did make contact they didn’t hit it hard. He only gave up 3 HRs in 127 IP. That’s impressive.
Holland has great numbers as well. You can make an argument either way, but like t ball said you can’t make an argument that Feliz doesn’t deserve it.
Wait 'til the year after next
by NothinG on Dec 19, 2008 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Errors
Errors are, frankly, a crappy measure of a minor league player’s defensive capabilities. It might be that the guy makes a lot of errors on balls that most other guys have absolutely no business getting to. Sure-handedness is an important tool in a player’s defensive game, but it’s something that really doesn’t become a liability in a player until he’s at the major league level and losing games because of his gaffes. At a developmental stage, it’s the guy’s range that’s a much bigger concern, and by all accounts Andrus has that in spades. The technique can come later, and given his extremely young age, he’s got plenty of time to make that happen.
by mrkupe on Dec 19, 2008 2:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree, and add to that
the complete crapshoot that field quality is in the minor leagues.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Dec 19, 2008 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Should Martin Perez be a straight B?
As Im looking at it, what separates him from Melville or Montgomery? He’s a year younger, but arent the ceilings and development similar? Is the only difference that one guy is an intl. FA and the others were 1st round picks…? Would Perez have been a 1st rd pick if he was eligible for the 08 draft?
Id like to hear some cases made one way or the other…
by alskor on Dec 19, 2008 2:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Andrus
Just can’t see a guy with absolutely no power, even at shortstop, being an A prospect. The fact that he doesn’t even project to have power isn’t working in his favor either. He is a good prospect, but just not good enough to warrant that grade in my mind.
by dougdirt on Dec 19, 2008 3:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Think of Andrus as a Derek Jeter type,
I would take that anyday of the week.
The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ
by NYTXFAN on Dec 19, 2008 5:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jeter
with less power and jumpthrows maybe.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 19, 2008 8:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jumpthrow ability is key.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
by tyd3311 on Dec 19, 2008 8:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jeter doesn't have the speed though
Andrus looks like he’ll be a consistent 40+ SB guy while Jeter mostly was a 20 SB guy. I’d like the power more, but I think it is worth mentioning.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Derek Jeter
Was very, very fast when he was younger. Stolen bases don’t wholly reflect this due to the nature of the teams he played on and the era in which he played, but make no mistake : Jeter could fly. He also didn’t have a ton of power at an early age, but grew into it. FWIW, Jeter was a pretty great prospect.
by GuyinNY on Dec 19, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not talking speed
as in foot race speed. I’m talking more about base running and specifically stolen bases. Maybe Jeter “could” have stolen 50 bases like Andrus has shown, but he didn’t.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
SB
Jeter did swipe 50 bases in his age 20 season.
by rwperu34 on Dec 19, 2008 6:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you're right
he was able to do it once. I missed seeing all 3 minor league teams he played for that season. Still, just once and he never made it close to that total again. Andrus had 40 in 2007 and 53 last season.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 8:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Age 19
Jeter at age 19 hit 5 HR with 25 2b+3b in 515 AB in low A.
Andrus at age 19 hit 4 HR with 21 2b+3b in 482 AB in AA.
While Andrus likely won’t turn into Derek Jeter, he is a far better prospect heading into his age 20 season. Jeter was ranked 16th overall by BA that year.
by rwperu34 on Dec 19, 2008 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Assumptions
Andrus may have had better counting stats at the same age as Jeter, but that doesn’t make one a better prospect.
by dougdirt on Dec 19, 2008 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tools
Are you trying to tell me that Jeter had better tools?
by rwperu34 on Dec 19, 2008 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't say
Because I wasn’t really in the prospect game back in 1992-1995, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he did. The guy was taken in the top 10 of the draft as a shortstop. Odds are he was oozing tools.
by dougdirt on Dec 19, 2008 9:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was
Jeter was oozing with tools. How would you describe Andrus? “He made it to AA on his good looks.”
Here’s a comparison with a few more superstar shortstops through their age 19 season;
Hanley Ramirez-Hit .275/.326/.403 in low A with a little more power.
Miguel Tejada-Hit .245/.345/.428 in short season ball. Really blew up at age 20.
Jose Reyes-Similar type player to Andrus although more power. Still struggled a little in the early going but eventually became the tools guy that developed plate discipline and became a superstar.
Jimmy Rollins-Hit .244/.302/.354 in A+. Was mearly a good player until age 25-26 when he became a great player.
Nomar Garciaparra-Was probably hitting well with an aluminium bat at Georgia Tech. In his first exposure to AA at age 21 he hit .267/.338/.384. Really took off at age 22 in AAA.
Of those five plus Jeter, the only one who had done more by age 19 was Reyes.
by rwperu34 on Dec 20, 2008 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
but I am curious as to the scouting reports on those guys at the time. Stats tell me what the guy is capable of doing today, not what they are capable of doing tomorrow. Andrus doesn’t project power or even close to it, so comparing his numbers to guys who did project some power doesn’t really tell us much which is more of what some are saying.
by dougdirt on Dec 20, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
THose guys
With the exception of Tejada none of those guys projected power at age 19.
The scouting reports on Andrus are as good or better than all but maybe Reyes.
by rwperu34 on Dec 20, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
Jeter, Reyes, Nomar, Tejada, and Hanley were all noted as being toolboxes who would eventually develop plus power. They all eventually did. The scouting reports on Andrus are not as good as the reports on Reyes(who really was a monster prospect), Nomar (again, huge) or Jeter (mega, mega-prospect.) Even in the case of Hanley, the book on him was that he had sublime tools, but was underperforming them due to a lack of interest because he wasn’t being challenged. That Andrus is even in the conversation with these guys (as prospects, not based on their big league careers) is a tremendous compliment.
Those were/are all 5 tool studs, and Andrus is one, too. I may be in the minority on this one, but I disagree with KG and I do think he’ll develop power down the line.
by GuyinNY on Dec 21, 2008 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This comp makes utterly no sense
Jeter has a lot more power than Andrus, walks a lot more, and plays (theoretically) much worse defense.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 19, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
See post above you
it’s not that ridiculous. But, I agree Jeter has more power than Andrus will ever have.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 19, 2008 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just saying, if you took the 30 MLB starters and compared them to Andrus,
Jeter would be like the 25th most similar of 30. Andrus has more in common with Michael Young than Derek Jeter.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 19, 2008 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And I should add, that last sentence should be read in a sarcastic tone, not as a serious comparison.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 19, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's fair to say that
however the comp was being made between them at similar ages…not andrus vs what jeter is now.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 19, 2008 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
theoretically???
Jeter is terrible by any standard. Andrus is not. There’s nothing theoretical about it.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Andrus dreams of being Vizquel, not Jeter
The Jeter comp really does make no sense.
by aap212 on Dec 19, 2008 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We know Jeter's defense is really bad
It’s possible that Andrus’s defense will also be really bad. Not very likely, but possible. Look at Betancourt if you want proof of that principle.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 20, 2008 2:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone mentioned...
the Jump Throws yet?
by The Colonel on Dec 20, 2008 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kevin Goldstein on Elvis Andrus
Goldstein and I share a similar opinion of Andrus, but I figure people actually give what he says actual weight while what I say gets brushed aside….
From Baseball Time in Arlington
Q: Elvis Andrus: Great shortstop prospect or greatest shortstop prospect?
- Trip Somers
Goldstein: Neither. None of the above. I pick C. I’m a guy who just isn’t an Andrus believer, and there’s a reason for that. Offensively, he’s a guy without secondary skills. He doesn’t work the count very well and he doesn’t have any power. He’s a very good defensive shortstop, but he’s not a crazy great defensive shortstop; he’s not a Gold Glove-caliber shortstop, he’s a really good shortstop. I feel the guy is going to hit .280 or .290 and steal some bases, but at the same time he’s going to draw 30 walks and hit four home runs for you. He’s an everyday shortstop that is going to hit seventh for you. That’s not an All-Star, that’s a regular shortstop. I mean, what has he really done? He’s not just going to find it. It’s not there to find.
by dougdirt on Dec 19, 2008 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't get it
Why would you project him to have reached his power ceiling at 19 (seasonal age)? I don’t like the Jeter comp above, as their overall skill sets aren’t really the same. But at 19 he hit 5 homers and slugged under .400 in low A ball. Andrus hit 5 homers and slugged under .400 in AA at the same age. Now I’m not suggesting that just because Jeter gained power, Andrus automatically will. But for someone at the time to have claimed Jeter had probably reached his power ceiling would have been pretty dumb.
The only reasons to posit this would be if you think Andrus completely lacks physical projection or has a swing completely inconducive to lifting the ball. And maybe those are true concerns about Andrus, but that’s not the argument above. KG is just looking at his stat line.
Ethan Martin, Anthony Hewitt, Cutter Dykstra… these guys were already 19 WHEN DRAFTED FROM HS.
by aCone419 on Dec 19, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Correct me if I'm wron
but didn’t Goldstein also say something last year that it was time for Andrus to stop being hype and start showing some results? I remember reading that from one prospect analyst and thinking it was pretty strange to say about a 19 year old in AA.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
It was definitely Goldstein. I’m not sure what kind of beef he has with Andrus, because to me, his production is remarkable considering his age/level. Just for fun, using the ol’ minor league equivalency calculater, I put Andrus in Jeter’s shoes as a 19 yo in Greensboro. New line, .344/.415/.436 with 64 SB.
by rwperu34 on Dec 19, 2008 6:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's the whole
thing where analysts take a hardline stance on something to either stir up conversation or to be recognized. KG was all over Feliz in the positive stance — and he’s always been an Andrus skeptic.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 19, 2008 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mind the skepticism
I just remember that comment he made about Andrus and thinking how ridiculous it was. If he wants to say that he doesn’t believe Andrus will ever be strong enough to hit for much power, I won’t agree right now but its understandable. I just didn’t understand how a 19 year old in AA who was more than holding his own had to start showing something instead of just relying on hype.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You really think...
…that KG is saying this about Andrus because he wants attention?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2008 8:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
KG made sense. Andrus has no secondary skills. Even in his best projections he’s hitting for a pretty empty average. Does he project to be an elite defender? Not really. He’s “pretty good” at hitting for average and with the glove. Nice player to have. Right now I see him being overrated.
by alskor on Dec 19, 2008 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's walking
at just under league average rate as one of the youngest players in AA, and he’s maintaining an OBP consistently 50-60 points above his avg. so I’m not real worried about his plate discipline. I think it’s an exaggeration to say he has “no secondary skills” and power can be pretty unpredictable at that age.
I don’t think he’ll hit for much power. But if his defense pans out as scouts suggest he doesn’t need to. He’ll be an average offensive SS and an above average glove there, which is a pretty valuable player. He may be overrated by some, I think a B+ was warranted this year.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Dec 19, 2008 10:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's really not any different from what KG said...
or I said, for that matter.
by alskor on Dec 19, 2008 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
My point is that KG is way overstating his case.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Dec 20, 2008 8:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not overtly no
But like I said, sometimes these guys take hardline stances to be the “first” or the “skeptic” about a certain guy. I think his points on Andrus are certainly warranted. I just thought it was interesting that he was all over Feliz before this past season — but he says he wants Andrus to “do something.” It seems contradictory.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 19, 2008 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Because you want him to be biased either in favor of or against Rangers prospects all the time? Or because you want him to not listen to scouts?
by aap212 on Dec 20, 2008 3:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No you miss the point completely
Feliz hadn’t “done anything” before the 2008 season. He’s saying Andrus needs to “do something” after he spent his 19 year old season in AA. Why does one prospect have to “do something” and another doesn’t?
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 20, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's about scouting, not resume
He wants Andrus to show something that changes his projection. Feliz has shown the upside all along, while he just doesn’t buy into any kind of power or plate discipline from Andrus.
by aap212 on Dec 20, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My issue with his statement
is that Andrus has done plenty. Maybe the hype is working against him — but I still think it’s a contradictory statement about Feliz. Andrus only got hype because of scouts originally — and he went to AA at a very young age and more than held his own. Feliz had barely pitched 50 innings stateside and Feliz was trumpeting him as a great prospect. I get that he was going off scouting, and I get that he can have his own opinion…IMO though it is contradictory to want more from Andrus but to be all over Feliz before he had ever done anything.
Like I said above — KG’s concerns over Andrus are warranted for sure. I just find it interesting the different stances he takes on 2 different prospects.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 20, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
*KG was trumpeting Feliz*
sorry should’ve proofread.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 20, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not contradictory at all
Scouting of Feliz shows a very, very high ceiling – without anything to really hold him back. Scouting of Andrus shows a good player right now, with a decent ceiling, but limited growth potential in the areas of power and patience.
by alskor on Dec 20, 2008 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I don't understand
how a player can be considered top 100 in baseball and not have a high ceiling.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 20, 2008 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, seriously?
If a guy had a 100% chance of being an exactly league average starter for 7 years, he would be correctly ranked at something like #30 on a top 100 list.
Obviously that’s a made-up thought experiment, but there are players whose average outcome is good enough to put them in the top 100 regardless of their putative “ceiling.”
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 21, 2008 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it depens on your perspective
but a leave average starter for 7 years is not something to scoff at. I’m probably nitpicking KG’s statements a bit here, but I think it’s clear he’s trying to counter all the hype of Andrus — which is probably warranted. I just found it interesting that he would be all over Feliz before he had really done anything — but then he says Andrus needs to “do more” after more than holding his own at AA at age 19.
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 22, 2008 8:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Frankly,
If we knew that one player was absolutely guaranteed to be an average starter for 7 years, he would be a #1 prospect, not #30
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
by OldProspects on Dec 22, 2008 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Max Ramirez vs. Angel Salome
As both seem to rank about equal, which would you rank higher? Ramirez would seem to be destined for 1B while Salome’s stature affords him every opportunity to stick at catcher.
by ILuvDaBush on Dec 19, 2008 4:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Great list John,
Your letter ranking are probably dead on and I like the fact you went to 25 with this list and not 20. The fact that pretty much all the type c players have the potential next year to become B-A players is really good. Andrus has the skills to succeed so I don’t think changing his grade matters.
The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ
by NYTXFAN on Dec 19, 2008 5:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
holland/feliz/smoak
I holland and feliz, and they are close in my mind.
I could have had Smoak I think. I have Hosmer on my team, and I just offered Ben Sheets to another owner for a prospect. I was thinking Alonso or Smoak, and the guy offered back Alonso right away, and I took him. I likely could have held out for Smoak. So it stung a little bit to have John say he prefers Smoak to both of them.
Of course, Smoak is much farther along than Hosmer.
by wobatus on Dec 19, 2008 8:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Golson
I knew this system was very good..then I saw Golson was an “other”..there is no doubt he would have been top 7 in the Phillies system if he has not been traded. The Phils system isnt great..but its between 15-20 or so I would say without researching it
by NYSOX on Dec 19, 2008 9:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
BA had them ranked 20-22 the last 5 yrs
so not so great but I liked the trade even though I would’ve liked to have seen how Mayberry fared next year at Arlington.
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 9:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Greg Golson
John – I know you are busy, but was curious if you could answer this. In your phillies top 20, Golson placed at 12 with a grade of C+, but now in the Rangers system, he’s fallen into the “other” category (which I assume are all grade C’s). Is this a purposeful drop in grade? Was he graded too high in the phillies top 20? Or, is he supposed to still be a C+
by thudean on Dec 19, 2008 10:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is the big difference
in system depth
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Even still
I thought thats why John went 24 deep, to account for all the C+ guys. I mean, I’m not for or against him being graded at one over the other, but just seeing if this was an error in consistency or some other change.
by thudean on Dec 19, 2008 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
golson
Yeah, I’m thinking Grade C+ was too high for Golson and have him as a C now.
by John Sickels on Dec 19, 2008 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this list is sick...
i have no bias toward the rangers at all. in fact, i’m more of an nl guy. but this list is sick. when i find a sleeper candidate for ‘09, i look him up on milb and invariably he’s a ranger. not every time, mind you, but many times. you look at the list of arms they’ve put together and it’s awe-inspiring. my question is this:
who can be given the credit for putting together such an amazing group of minors? does it go right to the gm? i would think that other teams will start copying what the rangers have done. even some of their lower-ranked guys — weiland particularly — get me excited.
is this not an amazing list?
by psugator on Dec 19, 2008 9:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Daniel's Scouts and staff
deserve the credit, especially evaluating the Latin American kids we signed and picked up in trades. The Intl. scouting staff got revamped when JD came aboard and the approach shifted to a more long-term vision beginning with the Mid-2007 trades. So I say JD and system and the decision to ditch a win-now attitiude. And whoever was on their toes quickly enough to nab Madrigal and Strop as FA should get a heads-up too.
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 9:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Others:
I would add Klye O’ Campo and Joe Ortiz to the list.
" He throws it where he wants it, his breaking ball kept getting better and better and of course God gave him that special arm. He's great." ~ Neftali Feliz on Derek Holland.
by Kinslerhomer on Dec 19, 2008 10:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Kyle*
" He throws it where he wants it, his breaking ball kept getting better and better and of course God gave him that special arm. He's great." ~ Neftali Feliz on Derek Holland.
by Kinslerhomer on Dec 19, 2008 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hurley
I’m curious as to the precipitous drop for Hurley. I realize he didn’t have a good season and gave up way to many long balls, but #20 behind guys like Hunter, Moscoso, and Gomez? That’s not even mentioning ranking him behind Font and his 3 innings of work this year.
What do you think Eric Hurley has to do to stick in the rotation and what do you put the odds that he does it at?
by bushe on Dec 19, 2008 10:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thomas Diamond
1 year removed from TJ surgery, and think he has a chance to impact the Rangers this year.
Otherwise, I would say Strop or Madrigal with a slight edge to Strop because of his ceiling.
Wait 'til the year after next
by NothinG on Dec 19, 2008 10:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
one more player
Honestly, I think it should be Diamond. He’s an unknown, but I could have an impact in the very near future. He could be an above average arm out of the pen, and it might look odd if he’s nowhere to be found on the list.
"Was this really necsarry?" - cowpoke/hurler hurley
by trza on Dec 19, 2008 10:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Unknown?
Former 10th overall pick . . .he might be a lot of things, but “unknown” is not one of them.
by mrkupe on Dec 19, 2008 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he may have meant that
due to injury concerns
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Diamond is a forgotten prospect
because of TJ. This year he has the chance to reestablish himself. I think he will.
Wait 'til the year after next
by NothinG on Dec 19, 2008 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's "forgotten"
because he keeps getting hurt, he doesn’t have control of any of his pitches, he warms up slowly and his “mid-90s” fastball is really a low 90s fastball. If he wasn’t hyped in 2005, would we be talking about him at all?
by FirebatM3 on Dec 19, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Diamond.
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
by Longhorn on Dec 19, 2008 10:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Mayberry?
The Golson discussion reminded me that we haven’t seen a grade/comment for John Mayberry yet, as he wasn’t with the Phillies at the time that list was posted, and he’s not with the Rangers now.
Where does he slot in?
by mrkupe on Dec 19, 2008 10:59 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Michael Inoa v. Martin Perez
Inoa a B- ranked 9th in the A’s system
Perez a B- ranked 10th in the Rangers system
Interesting.
by cstorm15 on Dec 19, 2008 11:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Only time will tell...they both have huge upside
Wait 'til the year after next
by NothinG on Dec 19, 2008 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like that
They’re both huge upside, huge risk pitchers. A B- is reasonable
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
by OldProspects on Dec 19, 2008 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a bit of a price difference
in getting each of those prospects lol
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Dec 19, 2008 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's definitely true
but a 6’ 7" 16yr old who can hit 96. That’s nice. I don’t know that the Rangers wouldn’t have given him close to that, just A’s probably outbid
Wait 'til the year after next
by NothinG on Dec 19, 2008 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
actually the rangers offered Inoa about a million bucks more IIRC
Inoa choose the A’s because of the Rangers disastrous record developing pitchers.
Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom
by designatedforassignment on Dec 19, 2008 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there are plenty of ranger prospects that were developed
they just pitch for other teams now.
Wait 'til the year after next
by NothinG on Dec 19, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The A's had a connection to Inoa through one of their Latin American scouts
long before Texas came along and outbid them. The line about the A’s having a better chance of developing him was kind of lame in the context of Inoa’s connection to the A’s scout.
Go Rangers!
by rooster on Dec 19, 2008 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well considering that it was one of the reasons that was cited by inoa
i don’t think it was lame… Inoa said that he would rather take less money initially so that he be with an organization that would help his development and improve his second and much more lucrative deal.
Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom
by designatedforassignment on Dec 19, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
There’s also the story out there that the A’s and Inoa had an under-the-table agreement reached prior to the point when you could even talk contract, and that the “A’s develop pitchers better” story was used to explain that away…
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 19, 2008 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the latest (from TR Sullivan?)
was that TX did not have a chance to make an offer so the “development” angle sounds like agent hot air.
by Goyogringo on Dec 19, 2008 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Was the ever known for sure
I thought I read somewhere that the agent never knew of the Ranger’s offer, which doesn’t make sense, but I can’t blame him for choosing the A’s over the Rangers in his situation.
by groundingout on Dec 19, 2008 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
um or he had a pre-15th deal with the A’s
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 19, 2008 7:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That just begs the question of why he chose not to violate it
Obviously it wasn’t enforceable. Supposedly he had an agreement with the Yankees still earlier, then realized he could get more and backed out. I don’t blame him for that, guys get exploited as hell in that game.
You really think his reasoning for turning down the Rangers was “No, I must enforce the terms of the illicit pre-deadline agreement I reached with the A’s, despite its unenforceability, the presence of what I think is a better offer, and my prior revoking of exactly the same kind of offer”? Hogwash. It’s procedurally interesting (in the sense that it suggests that Latin American signings need to be brought under better control by MLB) but substantively meaningless.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 20, 2008 2:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1) link me to somewhere that talks about a deal with the yankees, because i have never heard that
2) dont be such a fucking homer.
3) do you REALLY think that he picked the a’s because they are “better at developing pitchers”?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 20, 2008 9:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1. The deal doesn’t come without a bit of controversy. Baseball America reports that Inoa’s Dominican buscon, scout essentially, had agreed to a $2.7 million deal with the Yankees but U.S. agent Adam Katz was brought into the deal and upped the price. The Yankees pulled out of bidding after Katz reneged on their agreement, leaving the somewhat unlikely trip of the A’s, Rangers and Reds to duke it out.
2. Feel free to point out the part of this post which was inspired/distorted/whatever by “homerism.”
3. It seems like the least improbable reason. Haven’t heard any actual explanations from you…
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 20, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my explanation is that he had a pre-15th deal with the a’s…hence, he signed with them.
to quote laxtonto above
(saying he signed w/ the a’s for development purposes) is just a smoke screen. The same reason why you get guys that say they signed with "x" team because they were their favorite team or becasue they develop hitter’s better.
These kids sign because of their "handler" has contacts with certain agents. These agents have contacts with certain clubs.
Why do you expect that it is so hard to build presence in Latin America? It is not like the super talented kids, the cream of the crop, aren’t already identified. If the footing was equal for all teams and none had early contact with anyone you would have a better dispersal of the Latin American talent than you do today.
I don’t buy the " I chose Oakland for their ability to develop pitchers". I do buy the agent’s quote that has latter retraced that they had already had an arrangement made before the Ranger’s offered their deal at the opening of the signing period, and thus stayed with the A’s.
I have no problem with that. That is just how the game is played in Latin America. I understand why he says what he is saying becasue he has no real other logical option than to say I was contacted before the signing period opened. But to run around touting it as a major selling point is pretty much ridiculous.
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 20, 2008 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That "explanation" explains nothing
It’s begging the question, in the literal logical sense of the term. He had a pre-signing (I don’t know why you keep saying “pre-15th”) agreement with the A’s. OK, why did he have such an agreement?
You cannot seriously expect me to believe that the A’s, a team who had damned nearly pulled out of the D.R. until they finally started spending again last season, somehow had the best “contacts” with his “handler.”
And even if they did— teams were talking directly to the guy. What was to stop him from just saying “fuck you, I’m signing for more money with Texas”? The A’s and his “handlers” had no recourse, just like the Yankees had no recourse (other than upping their bid, which they refused to) when he backed out on their offer.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 21, 2008 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Some of the most violent things I’ve ever seen were at Raiders games. And I’ve been to jail. - leopold bloom
by designatedforassignment on Dec 21, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
believe what you want, but you are in the minority and im not going to change your mind.
also for some reason i had been thinking it was july 15th not july 2nd for the signing day
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Dec 22, 2008 10:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Teagarden-Johnson
Might Charles Johnson be a good comp for Teagarden? Excellent defense, pop, and a low batting average combined with an ability to walk enough to keep his OBP at a decent level.
by Fanon on Dec 19, 2008 11:19 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Only if the comp
includes the WS ring. :)
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on Dec 19, 2008 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll bet...
I’ll bet that all these prospects lead to Texas being one of the best hitting teams in the bigs and the pitching staff continuing to flounder. The more things change, the more things remain the same.
by jclay09 on Dec 19, 2008 12:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You do realize that
17 of the 24 prospects on here are pitchers right? Even if you do a 8 to 1 ratio on good pitchers to burnouts they still wind up with 2 real good SP out of that mix.
That is a ton of SP prospects… Almost Oakland A’s esque…
Never mind… thats 2 more than Oakland..
Never would I thought I would see the day that has Texas with more legitimate pitching prospects than Oakland…
by laxtonto on Dec 19, 2008 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
half
I think half of the 24 will make significant contributions to their teams in the MLs. Not all will be with the Rangers. JD has found the new currency in baseball: Pitching prospects.
Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year
by RangerMad on Dec 19, 2008 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lol
Ok. Can I interest you in a very nice bridge I have available?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Dec 19, 2008 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lazy
Did you even read the list?
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 19, 2008 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your opinions
they suck. Get better ones.
Thanks.
by FirebatM3 on Dec 19, 2008 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs