Jamie Moyer HOF?
by ScottAZ on Nov 4, 2008 12:44 PM EST
30 comments
Got into a debate with a co-worker on this and wanted to see what people thought here. Moyer, at age 44, has 246 wins and 2248 K's on his career.
I argue very good numbers, but not Hall worthy.
My co-worker says that soon 250 wins will be the new 300 benchmark and Moyer will get in at some point.
IMO, he'd need over 280 wins (34 wins is a lot left for a 44yr old), 3000 K's, (750 short, no chance) or be a post-season stallwart (in the mold of a Duque Hernandez).
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If Moyer pitches into his 50’s, sure. But then, only because he’d be a freak of nature worth honoring.
by demondeaconsbaseball on Nov 4, 2008 12:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i didn't compare the two but....
aren’t moyer’s stats similar to don sutton’s, and sutton is a HOFer……….i look at the HOF as only for the very best. but when it started inducting inferior players (rizzuto, niekro, sutton, etc), it lowered the bar, allowing guys like moyer to be considered. if sutton is in, then how can we ignore moyer?
by psugator on Nov 4, 2008 12:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Sutton is one of the ones people point out as bad selections
Being comparable to Don Sutton is, IMO, not good for one in a HoF debate.
by mraver on Nov 5, 2008 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Moyer pitches for another 5 years, maybe
Otherwise, he’s been a very average pitcher for a very long time.
Guys like Rizzuto and Sutton were voted in by the Veteran’s Committee. They’ve since changed the rules to make it much harder to get voted in by the Veteran’s Committee, intentionally so the bar doesn’t get lowered to that level. If he pitches for another 4 or 5 years at a decent level, he’ll have the Niekro argument (don’t forget that Niekro barely got in on the last or second to last ballot), but at this point, all he really has on his side is longevity. I find it hard to believe that 70% of the voters would vote in a 1-time all-star, even if he eventually gets to 300 wins by pitching forever.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Nov 4, 2008 1:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The "Niekro argument"
Career lines:
ERA
Niekro: 3.86
Moyer: 4.19
ERA+
Niekro: 115
Moyer: 106
Wins
Niekro: 318
Moyer: 246
Ks
Niekro: 3342
Moyer: 2248
Moyer has pitched 22 seasons while Niekro pitched 24. Moyer already has the same longevity argument… he’s just nowhere near as good a pitcher as Phil Niekro was…
by alskor on Nov 4, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sutton was voted in by the baseball writers
elected to Hall of Fame by Baseball Writers: 1998
386 votes of 473 ballots cast (81.6%)
He had 324 wins and 3574 strikeouts
I mean yeah his career ERA+ of 108 is not world burning but part of that is he played for so long and diluted his peak. If you keep Sutton out that tightens the standards for the hall of fame in my opinion rather then loosening them
Don't believe the lies Bill!!!! look at the sparkly ERA!!! Sparkly, Sparkly!!! - McCovey Chronicles
by Trenchtown on Nov 4, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't throwing anyone out tighten the standards? How could it loosen them?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on Nov 5, 2008 2:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he means
“Using the comp” rather than “removing from the Hall of Fame.” He is saying that Sutton makes Moyer look worse, rather than better.
by JayWise on Nov 5, 2008 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Moyer...
is going to be 46 in a couple of weeks. He’s not 44.
by DrunkIrish on Nov 4, 2008 1:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Which begs the question...
If Moyer can continue to be an effective (read: somewhat average) starting pitcher into his late 40’s, how much credit does he get for being (possibly) the best pitcher after age 40 in the modern era?
by DrunkIrish on Nov 4, 2008 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which further begs the question...
What if he pitches to age 60 with an ERA in the teens? That would make him no worse than the second best pitcher after age 60 in the modern era… surely the HOF cant ignore that!!!
Jamie Moyer was NEVER a GREAT pitcher. He has no place in the HOF. I dont care if he pitches 100 years. The best year of his career by ERA+ was his 2003 when he was 40 years old. He went 21-7 with a 3.27 ERA and a 132 OPS+. He finished 5th in Cy Young balloting. His career ERA+ is 106. His career ERA is 4.19. He only has 246 Wins(185 Losses). 2248 Ks in 3746 IP. No matter what benchmarks you favor, there is really no way to make an argument for Jamie Moyer in the HOF.
If a hitter stayed in the game for 22+ years and had an OPS+ just a little bit better than league average, with unimpressive counting numbers in Hits, HRs and RBI… well, we would call him Julio Franco. And absolutely no one in their right mind would be arguing he should be in the HOF.
by alskor on Nov 4, 2008 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How soon they forget
Note in particular his 1965 performance
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by OldProspects on Nov 4, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
longetivity does not equal greatness
he’s been above average for a long time, which is a nice accomplishment, but he’s never really been great. never higher than 4th in cy young voting. only three times in the top 10. i dont see him getting in.
by dmb60614 on Nov 4, 2008 1:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Party has got to end pretty soon.
Moyer has been incredibly good given his age the last couple of years. For my money I would still, by a pretty fair margin, take Nolan Ryan’s post 40 career. I suppose if he continues to pitch like he did this year for several more years I would have to reevaluate, but that’s so far outside the realm of precedent it wouldn’t be all that much different in probablility from a 17 year coming straight into the majors and having immediate success.
by Dalman on Nov 4, 2008 2:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Belongs in the Hall of Fame Museum, not the Hall of Fame
He’s been a very good player and is en route to becoming one of its great characters, in terms of longevity, etc. But he’s just not great enough a player to make it. He’s never been one of the elite pitchers in baseball, and he’s really not as good as some guys who will never sniff the hall of fame, like Kevin Brown or David Cone.
by aap212 on Nov 4, 2008 2:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good examples
I like the Brown and Cone examples. I would say the guy whose numbers look similar to Moyer’s is David Wells. A lefty who had a very GOOD career but not Hall worthy. If guys like Blyleven and Tiant aren’t in the Hall, I don’t see how Moyer has a shot. Moyer has an ERA above 4.00 and has never posted a sub 3.00 ERA. He has remarkable durability but definitely not a Hall of Famer.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Nov 4, 2008 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
guys not in the hall of fame
The HOF shouldn’t be for every good player or every popular player or even every unique player. Jamie Moyer will be nowhere near the best pitcher outside the HOF, and that’s fine. It doesn’t mean he wasn’t good, popular or even unique.
by whichthat on Nov 4, 2008 2:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well said.
I forget, was it Jay Jaffe or someone else who periodically inducted people into the Hall of Very Good?
by aap212 on Nov 4, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Marc Normandin I think
The Ray Lankford Hall of Fame I think was the name of it. He actually went into a big thing about it back when this site first started and he was a regular poster here.
I’m sure there are others as well.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Nov 4, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+ 1,000
I’ve been a big proponent of the Hall of Good/Very Good for years. I think there are tons of player out there who we fondly remember as very good players, yet don’t meet the HOF criteria.
I debated with a friend of mine on Curt Schilling’s HOF credentials and I said he wasn’t quite up to snuff, but definitely would be in the HOG. That then led to a debate on who would be the minimum standard for the HOG. Mark Grace, maybe?
Jamie Moyer makes my HOG and makes the Cubs look stupid for cutting him loose back in his 20’s. The guy is amazing….but not a HOFer.
by joltinjoe on Nov 5, 2008 4:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Love Jamie
He’s probably my favorite pitcher of all-time, besides the REALLY great ones but I wouldn’t seriously argue for him to make the Hall but I will say a few things…
1) Herb Pennock is in and Jamie was just as good as him…lol
2) The most interesting thing about Jamie, besides the fact that it is just AMAZING all the way around is that he essentially had the SECOND HALF of a hall of famer and not the first half.
What I mean is that most pitchers who look like HOF’s but fall short were great in thier 20’s- until early 30’s but fizzle out… countless guys like Cone, Brown etc… but Jamie at age 33 started a run of pitching until even right now that would be hall-worthy imo if he was a good pitcher from 23-33, which he wasn’t always. That is pretty incredible though and extremely rare. Doubt he has a chance though. I wouldn’t put anything past him though. He’s been writen off by many every time he has 2 bad starts in a row for YEARS and he keeps coming back. I’ll be rooting for him.
by casejud on Nov 4, 2008 2:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
not until
bert blyleven….
best curve in baseball history, according to many rankings….and the k’s and wins to make it….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on Nov 4, 2008 8:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
BB
I always thought this was an interesting stat I found about how good bert Blyleven was. He rankes 9th All-Time in Shutouts. obviously the top 8 are all in the HOF…but so are the NEXT 13. He’s the only guy in the top 22 in shutouts not in the Hall
by casejud on Nov 5, 2008 1:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sandy
had a devastating curve, but his “out” pitch was his changeup….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on Nov 5, 2008 9:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
unless he pitches like 5 more years and somehow get to 300 + , then we MIGHT consider it.
by RollingWave on Nov 5, 2008 8:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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