Community Prospect List: #29 (Run-off)
by the pinstripes on Nov 3, 2008 10:53 AM EST
Email
PrintAfter 365 votes it's time to have our third community prospect run-off between Tim Beckham who recieved 22% of the vote and Max Ramirez who garnered 21% ...........
We'll call a winner after the 300th vote or as soon as either of kingbilly or I log back in after the 300th vote is cast.
Who's the better prospect Max Ramirez or Tim Beckham?
FILLER, FILLER, FILLER, FILLER, FILLER, FILLER , FILLER, FILLER, FILLER, FILLER, FILLER, FILLER, FILLER, FILLER
65 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Max Ramirez
gets my vote again.
I heard Tim Lincecum will win 1 Cy Young & 11 Tim Lincecums. Question is, how many Cole Hamels will he win?
Same here, but
It looks like the masses prefer Beckham. :-)
Beckham
give me the 5 tool shortstop, who will stick at the position. There’s a reason this guy went #1. Ramirez will most likely move to first base, which reduces his status for this list, IMO.
Hes too short for 1B on a regular basis
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Ramirez
Rays homer here who went with Ramirez. His bat pretty much seems like a sure thing in the majors, and while Beckham has some great tools, most of what I’ve seen from him doesn’t indicate that his tools are SO special that you just assume he’ll put it together down the road. He has good batspeed, but not great batspeed. He’s quick, but not super quick. He has a strong arm, but not a spectacular arm. All the way around, I’d grade pretty much every tool 5 to 10 points lower than I would have graded BJ Upton at the same stage of development.
Ramirez doesn’t impress me a ton outside of his bat, but he’ll still be a solid hitter even if he gets moved off of catcher, and moving off of catcher would probably be more of a function of the team he’s on rather than a reflection on whether he could hack it at catcher.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
His bat
How is his bat a sure thing in the majors? He still hasn’t shown the ability to hit above AA and will be 24 this season.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Nov 3, 2008 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
Agree with King Billy
if he is pushed to first, then i’d take Morrison, Freeman and Montero before him from the list above.
by RoyalsFan4Life on Nov 3, 2008 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Chances...
He has only had limited chances to hit above AA, and although the stats aren’t great (he struck out too much) I think he held his own and it would have evened out if given more time in AAA or MLB. Besides, has Beckham shown he can even hit LoA pitching yet? If your knock on MaxRam right here is that he is barely in AA, I still think you have to vote for him since Beckham is even less proven.
Max Ram’s line in AAA is about the same as Beckham’s in Rookie Ball… but Max Ram hit for more power.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
What diff'ce does it make
if he can’t stick at catcher? IF you are grading his hitting as a catcher, fine, but i really don’t see him sticking there (in fact the Rangers prefer Teagaarden behind the plate long-term), so how does Ramirez grade above Morrison, Freeman or Montero then?
by RoyalsFan4Life on Nov 3, 2008 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Morrison, Freeman, and Montero...
when you talk about their upside… isn’t it basically Max Ramirez? Do you expect more production than that from them? When Player B’s upside is Player A…. I don’t think you can rank Player B above Player A.
Also…. I am curious. I always see everyone state on this board that MaxRam can’t stay at catcher. Is everyone just repeating now what someone on this board said, or do we actually have some sort of scouting report that says he can’t stay at catcher? Have the Rangers said anything about him not playing catcher in the majors? Just wondering because in the limited time I saw him in the majors (not even a full game worth) he looked pretty adequate back there. But I am no scout either. But his arm looked solid, he is only listed as 5’11" and 170lbs so he isn’t too big.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
hes going to be a catcher
not a 1b
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
Care to give us odds?
You seem a lot more certain than any scouting report I’ve ever heard.
That isn't my knock
My knock is that I think he is destined for 1B or DH and at those positions I see his bat being very average. Beckham has much greater tools and his bat at shortstop will be much above the league average mark.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Nov 3, 2008 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Did you vote Matt LaPorta in the Top 10?
What’s the difference?
I do not understand that argument at all
KBR is saying that Max’s bat is very average for a 1B. That is definitely NOT the case with LaPorta. I would take LaPorta’s bat over MaxRam’s bat 10 times out of 10, and I do not think it is very close. You simply cannot deny that LaPorta’s power potential is very special.
Why?
You say that LaPorta is a significantly better hitter than Ramirez – where is the evidence? You say that LaPorta has very special power – well, last year, playing at the same level at the same age, LaPorta had an ISOP of .288 – an outstanding number. Ramirez’s was .292. LaPorta walked the same amount, and stuck out only slightly less than Ramirez did. That’s even if you ignore Ramirez’s batting average that was 66 points higher, giving him an OPS 119 points higher. This is while playing at the same level at the same age. In actuality, the numbers listed below are too favorable to LaPorta, because I was too lazy to include his stats from Akron, which would bring his numbers down on the year.
Now, I’m not arguing that Ramirez is better for LaPorta for a few reasons; first of all, this was the first time that Ramirez showed such remarkable power. I, personally, think that this was a genuine improvement but I can understand being wary. Second, we know already that LaPorta can be at least a decent 1B, and we’re not sure if Ramirez can play catcher at the major league level. These reasons make it understandable to me that LaPorta is rated higher, but 25 slots higher seems untenable
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
Different way to rank prospects
Numbers aren’t the only way to view a prospect. I am a big fan of scouting reports AND numbers. The sources that I respect tend to believe that LaPorta is a better hitter, specifically in the power department.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Nov 3, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that leading into this year
the scouting reports uniformly suggested that LaPorta had much more power than Ramirez. In John’s comment on Ramirez last year, for example, he described him as an outstanding hitter, but implied he might be a .300 20 HR hitter who walked a lot and didn’t strike out much (a poor man’s Edgar Martinez, perhaps?) Where we differ is how we understand this year’s improvement. This year looks to me like a break-out year; facing tougher pitching, he dramatically upped his power numbers (21 HRs in 326 ABs at AA, AAA and the majors, after never having hit more than 16 in a year before) I don’t deny that LaPorta has tremendous power, but I only note that this year, Ramirez matched and in fact beat him on that score.
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
If MaxRam was a sure thing at C...
If MaxRam was a sure thing at C, then he’d probably be closer to a top 10 prospect than a top 30 guy with his bat. At this point he’s more of an “unlikely, but all hope isn’t yet lost” guy at that position.
But his bat is legit. He crushed the ball in AA, and even though he had some contact problems, maintained strong BB rates at both the AAA and MLB levels. Personally, I think the Rangers should treat him like CLE did VMart, playing him behind the dish some days and starting him at DH/1B other days with a more defensive-minded guy back there.
But the point with Ramirez is the bat. He’d be close to here even if there were no chance of him catching. That chance pushes him into the top 30, IMO.
Give me the guaranteed up the middle player
I voted for Beckham: Change we need.
Guaranteed?
What guarantee do we have that Beckham stays at SS? Wasn’t Upton supposed to be the “guranteed to stay at short” SS for the Rays? It seems to me that a lot of high school SS prospects that make it to the majors are moved off of SS sometime in the minors or early in their MLB career.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
Not analagous
Upton had the tools to play an up the middle position, but he wasn’t a guarantee to stay there. With Beckham, the consensus is that at the very least, he’s a 2B.
#30
Is loser of runoff automatically #30? Forgot how it was done earlier. Seems like that will speed things up.
I’m hoping Morrison stays on the list and doesn’t drop off again. His numbers at Jupiter were better than Hermida’s numbers at Jupiter at roughly same age (bloom came off Hermida this year somewhat, but he may pull a mini-Carlos Quentin style comeback is my guess). OK, so he is a 1B. Nevertheless, he did well in a tough park.
Not saying he is much better than other candidates, but I like him better than Vitters, for example.
The loser goes back in the polling. Anderson only got ranked due to the desire to end the ballot stuffing regarding him.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Nov 3, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
on a side note.....
“bloom came off Hermida this year somewhat, but he may pull a mini-Carlos Quentin style comeback is my guess”
this guy was awful last year. so bad that toward the end of the season freddie starting benching him. if you ask me, he’s done….nothing more than a 4th OF. but i guess we’ll see. stranger things have happened. just hard to believe that a few years ago he was the top high school hitter in the country.
done?
Quentin hit .214/.298/.349 in 2007, and he was slightly older than Hermida was this year.
Hermida hit .249/.323/.406 this year. He did look lost in the second half. I was surprised once they were out of it they still ran Gonzo out there over Hermida, but perhaps they were teaching him a lesson.
I’d be shocked if he was done. He slugged .500 at age 23 just a year ago, and he was a monster in the second half that year. He regressed, no doubt. Maybe he missed Miguel.
Not saying he’ll be the monster Quentin was in ’08 next year, but I think he is a good bet to come around.
Maybe he'll just be maddening
Rather than a star or a fourth outfielder, maybe injuries, inconsistency, and elite talent will combine to just make him a maddeningly unpredictable player. That’s what he is right now. Maybe that’s what he’s destined to be.
300 vote cutoff too high?
We only got to 302 votes on number 28. Where are the ballot stuffers when you need’em? Kidding.
300 or around 8 pm will be the cutoff, whichever comes first.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Nov 3, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Ask,,,
and you shall receive. Max Ram was ahead by 5 just a few minutes ago. Now he is up by 15. He got 10 votes in 5 minutes.
"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile
Rangers fans really need jobs, families, or hobbies
The level of fanaticism about Rangers prospects is creepy.
I'm sorry,
but why couldn’t ten people have come in over 5 minutes? That isn’t like 55 in 2 minutes
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
funny
we had 175 votes in about 4 1/2 hours when I posted that it seemed to be dragging, then we had 115 votes in the next hour. way to look alive out there guys! Perhaps a fratenrinity down at Texas Tech finally woke up from a massive beat the Longhorns party hangover and all voted at once.
Anyway, at least it is almost done and soon on to Number 30. It has taken a day to get 29 done.
Here comes the vote stuffing
why are Rangers fans doing this? It’s happened before, but there’s been a huge swing in the matter of mins.
Does it really matter?
Whether hes 29 or 30? Is that really out of the range of his prospect status? Whats the big deal? Personally I would only have a problem with “ballot stuffing” if it got a guy a ranking that was unjustified. So far I have not seen anything like that. If Max was a borderline top 75 prospect right here then you would have a gripe in my mind. But he is a legit top 30 guy and whether or not this poll has been “stuffed” really makes no difference IMO.
Or is it the fact that you don’t like seeing 5 Rangers in the top 30?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Rangers Fans
I’m a Rangers fan and I voted Beckham. Seems to be a lot of people on here that like MaxRam though.
This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC
I think it is insane
That Ramirez is top 30
ProjectProspect.com - Sullivan10x@yahoo.com
Wow
Its a ONE vote difference at this current minute. 130-129
and now
15 votes to 0 in 2 mins for Ramirez, it’s becoming a joke.
by RoyalsFan4Life on Nov 3, 2008 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Disqualify Ramirez
if these guys think it’s funny to do this to the poll, they should have him diqualified. It’s pretty evident what they’re doing here.
Good Idea
Beckham was winning handily last time i checked, and nwo in a matter of an hour the swing is crazy. They are making a mockery of the poll, and should be taught a lesson.
then I expect the same treatment of Brett Anderson and anyone else going forward.
If you let it go for so long, then slap someone on the wrist with a feather, then hit them with a hammer, what are you accomplishing?
I don’t condone ballot stuffing, but I am not a fan of changing precedent either.
All one way, or all the other way.. no half steps. Make s decision and stick to it.
They are making a mockery of the poll, and should be taught a lesson.
its an internet poll. see astley, rick and the european MTV awards…now thats a mockery
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
What Texas should do...
1B Smoak
3B Davis
DH MaxRam
C Teegarden
Chris Davis at third is a non-starter
He was bordering on historically bad in his time there this season.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Is he sending a Christmas card to Ryan Braun?
Thanks to Braun, people like Davis can only border on historically bad. Even Butch Huskey doesn’t look so bad at the hot corner in retrospect, now that we have Braun as a comparison.
Ballot stuffing
I read the complaints about ballot stuffing and decided to go check Lone Star Ball. I found a fanpost which directly linked the site to this poll:
“The Rangers are on the verge of having 5 of the top 30 prospects in baseball according to the fervent fans over at minorleagueball, and that doesn’t even include the greatness of Michael Main. I am not asking anyone to run over there and stuff the ballot box, but I do like the idea that Rangers prospects are no longer underrated by general baseball fans, and may even (gasp) be overrated at this point.”
Almost immediately after posting the voting for Max went through the roof. It was obvious that either:
A. A flood of Ranger fans came over to flood the ballot box
B. Ballot stuffing occured
Either way this is unacceptable and as a result Tim Beckham has been declared the winner and Max Ramirez will go on at 30 similarly to the Anderson scenario. It is important to note that if a regular team site poster is found to add a link to directly influence a team’s prospect rankings, that team’s ‘tester’ players will be more heavily scrutinized and not as likely to be added to avoid future ballot stuffing. I am sorry it had to come to this but hopefully this ends it.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Nov 3, 2008 5:27 PM EST reply actions
Also
In the unlikely case that all those votes were legit, by placing Max at #30 we have not really damaged his prospect stock in this community. Although these polls can get quite tiring, please understand that Pinstripes and myself are doing the best we can to ensure a list that is representative of the community while at the same time ensuring that it does not take up 24 hours of our time per day.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Nov 3, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
here here
maybe this will stop the blatant ploys from those Rangers fans (not all Rangers fans obviously, as I know some of you vote for who you most think is deserving).
Continued thanks to King Billy and Pin for their efforts and handling things like this professionally and with thought.
by RoyalsFan4Life on Nov 3, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
FWIW
I’ve been waiting until it’s all over to post results on DRaysbay. There are a number of regulars there who post here anyway, but no reason to influence the poll by having a bunch of people who don’t follow the minors turning it into a popularity contestt.
That said, the Rangers DO have the best minor league system in my opinion. They’re crazy if they think Michael Main is a top 30 type prospect at this point though. Not sure how you can even rate him ahead of, say, Jeremy Jeffress, who hasn’t even been suggested for a tester yet. Similar story, similar stuff, similar issues, only Jeffress’ K numbers and stuff are even better in a higher league.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
The Rangers may have the best farm system in baseball
I think they do, but they don’t need to have all of their guys in the top fifty for that to be true.
Who so far has been grossly over ranked?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Really?
Holland: The guy just went 13-1 with a 2.27 ERA in his first pro season between both A levels and AA. Had over a strikeout per inning, only gave up about 2 walks per 9, and gave up 3 home runs. All year. 3 home runs in 150 innings with only one being in the two hitter friendly places he played (Bakersfield and Frisco). If Porcello is at 14 Holland absolutely deserves to be 17
Smoak: Don’t let the #11 draft slot fool you. How he fell that far is beyond not only myself but just about every single baseball expert there is. He showed in his small sample size in Clinton all the tools we had heard about and has had a good AFL so far. Should be in the majors by Opening Day 2010. Comps to Teixeira and Chipper Jones. I think 22 is probably too low
Andrus: Apparantly to be considered a prospect you have to be a 40 home run potential no matter where you play. Andrus isn’t a power hitter and probably won’t turn into one. But the kid, yes hes still a kid, just finished a full season in AA at the age of 19 years old and hit .295/ .350. He will be 20 years old until the final month of 2009 when he could be in the majors by then. His range and glove at SS, one of the most important defensive positions in baseball, is ML caliber already and is considered to be gold glove caliber eventually. Oh did I mention he is only just barely 20 years old? He is a legit top 25 prospect.
Ramirez: If Matt Laporta gets ranked #10 Max Ramirez deserves #30. Ramirez put up better numbers at the same level at the same age. His lack of defensive position should not drop him over 20 spots behind Laporta. He is again a top 35 talent so 30 does not seem too far of a stretch.
Like I have said before if these guys were being voted in 20, 25, 30 spots higher than they should then you have a legit gripe. But none, in my opinion, are more than a few spots where I would probably rank them. And I imagine most of the prospect lists will have them pretty close to these rankings as well.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Really
I think all of these guys might be legit top 50 guys, but I think they are by and large noticeably too high. And no, I’m not fooled by Smoak’s draft position or anything. I think he’ll cover Daniels’ ass for trading Adrian Gonzalez for nothing. But I’ll say this:
1) I’m not saying I dislike any of these guys.
2) I wouldn’t have put Porcello that high either. I think people are too swayed by Porcello’s fame and too swayed by Holland making the biggest leap of any prospect this year.
3) I don’t see Andrus as a future star. The dearth of shortstop prospects in the minors seems to be inflating his prospect stock. I just don’t see it.
4) I wouldn’t have put LaPorta quite so high either, but with Ramirez, hitting prospects who started pro ball as teenagers should really already be in the majors at his age.
damn
sorry about that. I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that Max Ramirez is certainly more highly thought of around here than he is at LSB, and then this happens. Ramirez is one of the players who draws the most varied opinions among Rangers fans. Everyone likes his RH bat, which is needed in our lineup, but not everyone is convinced he stays at catcher.
I agree that Beckham should have been ranked above Ramirez, who is a top 50 guy and a nice return for Kenny Lofton, but who probably shouldn’t be this high.
Understood
I understand where you were coming from and am not blaming you directly. However, telling people ’don’t stuff the ballot box’ and providing them the link is like telling a child ’don’t eat any cookies’ and then leave them at home alone surrounded by Oreos.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Nov 3, 2008 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
its an internet poll
…and you expect it to be objective?
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
"That wasn’t rain, that was a band of angels pissing on your awful city. Shut the hell up and play." - robert_d_wilfong
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
