Is Lou Pinella the most overrated manager of all time
by Bravesin07 on Oct 5, 2008 12:21 AM EDT
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PrintI would think he is. I know some people will say Bobby Cox won all those divisions and only won one world series. However, the Braves did play in a game 7 of a world series and two 6 game series. Lou Pinella other that the 1990 playoffs has done very little, granted he did help save baseball in Seattle. Lou had the team that won 116 games get dominanted by a good but not great yankees team in 2001 and now is on the verge of getting swept by a 84 win team. I think Torre is a much much better manager than he is, and is showing the Yankees that he is a big part of the reason they won those 4 WS under him.
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Im not a huge fan of his in game moves and lineups
But he’s fundamentally sound, stresses the right things, and is a good clubhouse guy. One of the better managers in the league, but nothing spectacular.
Most overrated
In my opinion it is Tony Larussa. He has constantly been given amazing teams over the past 32 seasons and still only has 2 rings. That team in Oakland should have won at least 2 rings. Instead they lose to the Dodgers, and even get swept by the vastly inferior Reds. I understand he has a good regular season record but I am personally not a fan.
The most underrated manager in my opinion is Cito Gaston. He saved JP’s job this season with the fantastic job he did. It drives me nuts when he gets no credit for his back to back World Series victories because people feel “anyone could have won with that talent”. Why don’t people go ask Bobby Cox or Tony Larussa how easy it is to win with a great team? Cox only has one ring and Larussa has the same amount as Cito despite managing for 22 extra seasons.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Oct 5, 2008 12:45 AM EDT reply actions
are you kidding?
I don’t like the man personally (he’s a real pain in the ass when it comes to doing my job) but the dude can flat out manage as well as anyone in baseball. Say what you will about his Oakland teams (which I admit I was too young to really follow) but look at what he did this year with the Cardinals. While I’m no baseball expert, I thought they would be lucky to finish ahead of the Pirates. Look at the team he was given. Outside of Pujols, it was a mix and match of players that few other teams wanted. Now, I’m not saying that LaRussa was soley responsible for guys like Wellemeyer, Lohse and Ludwick having career seasons, but you have to give him credit for keeping that team focused and in the playoff race late into the year. I’ve seen how he interacts with his players and he seems to get the most out of the vast majority of them. He might be a prick, but he’s a hell of a manager.
+1
LaRussa can be a real tool, and he deserves to be docked somewhat for managing all those good teams. But joltinjoe is dead on when he points out the performance of the Cards this year. LaRussa has a lefty reliever fetish and has screwed up some stuff (including an incident where he risked Albert Pujols and his health over a meaningless game), but he’s a pretty good manager.
I think the operative words here were
“outside of Pujols”
Cards werent that bereft of talent.
OTOH, he’s taken a ton of flack, both in Oakland and St Lous, because he’s only won two world series even though he’s had at least 6 or 7 plus really great teams. Especially in Oakland this was true. They really never should have lost to the Dodgers. This was a widely repeated criticism of him – that he couldnt seal the deal – though obviously, he quieted the critics with that Cardinals win in 05.
I dont think he’s a bad manager, but I certainly dont agree he’s any sort of all time great.
Why should Larussa...
Take blame for the team not getting it done in the postseason. Did Larussa give up that homer to Kirk Gibson? No.
Never, Never, NEVER give up
Are you even reading what I said?
I said they have no more impact than any coach or GM. Jesus. It’s called reading comprehension dude.
Never, Never, NEVER give up
The managerial position in general....
is overrated in my opinion. Why do managers get credit and criticism for how the players do? The GM, and the hitting/pitching/bench/1st base/3rd base coaches all have more to do with the players performances than the manager does, therefore having more of an impact on how the team does. I dont get why managers are praised and criticized so much, when they dont have the much to do with the players except for putting in/taking out pitchers & making the lineups.
Never, Never, NEVER give up
Nonsense
For the most part. I’ll say THIS… a manager may look like he has no impact until you have a manager who is completely INEPT at these things. Lou, Tony, and Joe Torre are all terrific baseball managers.
What things?
How do they affect the team so much, or moreso than the coaches/GM? Please, tell me.
What makes Tony, Lou, and Torre so good? The fact that they managed good teams? Why should they get credit for the GM putting together a good team?
Never, Never, NEVER give up
Because they manage...
the game on a day to day basis. They have thier hands on everything and they deal with every issue that comes up with every player. They should get the credit because they also get the BLAME. Also, I certainly never said they are more important than a good GM. They are BOTH important. I can’t begin to explain to you why a manager is more important than a pitching coach/1b coach …lol or 3b coach though except the manager HIRES them as well.
Also, just to answer your question…the THINGS are the things YOU mentioned … managing the pitching staff and filling out the lineups/ making moves. Again, you may not appreciate how important it is because you haven’t spent a season or three rooting for a team with a a manager who is terrible at it. YOU certainly don’t give them any credit so BE HAPPY!
Jesus, calm down.
Why are you getting so defensive? Sheesh.
“They should get the credit because they also get the BLAME”
Yup, and I said they shouldnt.
“I can’t begin to explain to you why a manager is more important than a pitching coach/1b coach”
Please do it, because I sure as hell dont understand why.
“managing the pitching staff and filling out the lineups/ making moves.”
But who WORKS with those pitchers every day on their mechanics, control, etc…NOT the managers…the pitching coaches. It’s easy to just put guys in the game, it’s harder to get them ready enough to play in that game. Same with hitters. I can go out there and put up a lineup, or take a pitcher out if he’s getting tired or struggling, but it’s harder to actually get them prepared and to teach them to hit.
“Again, you may not appreciate how important it is because you haven’t spent a season or three rooting for a team with a a manager who is terrible at it.”
I’m upset from time to time about our manager taking out a pitcher too early here and there, but why should you get mad at a manager or reward the manager for what the player does?
“YOU certainly don’t give them any credit so BE HAPPY!”
Huh?
Never, Never, NEVER give up
I'm getting sick of this whole
‘I can’t quantify it, so therefore it’s not important’ attitude that a decent minority of statistically-oriented fans have started to pick up. Yes, a manager’s in-game moves probably don’t make that huge of a difference, but if you’re unable to manage the personalities in the clubhouse, it can become a huge issue. Anyone who’s ever worked in any kind of structured environment should know what a huge difference in worker productivity there can be when the guy who’s running the show has different positive and negative traits.
Same goes for pitch selection with catchers. Yes, it’s difficult to tell who is good at it and who isn’t, and you probably can’t rate a catcher well based on being good or bad at it, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not important.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
That isn't exactly what he's saying
If you accept that coaching matters, then you can easily argue that all of the coaches are as influential as the manager. I imagine that it depends on who the particular manager/coaches are on the team
www.loftylantern.com
seriously
have you EVER played the game, even in little league? your comments come off as someone who learned about baseball after he was beyond the age to experience it, so you know nothing about the real game…just the stats….
read comments by a guy who enters a great manager’s clubhouse, and you’ll start to understand….gary sheffield was TO on a baseball field before he went to atlanta, where he stated “i feel like i have to be a professional”….then he went to new york….all you heard about shef during that time was how he went along with his manager and gave all he had until the very end of his tenure in new york….livan hernandez even said that this year about the twins, despite him being shipped out by the team…he overly praised how ron gardenhire ran his team….
you say the coaches do all the work….where do you think they get their orders from? and in most team situations, who do you think the final decision on signing a player is? i know from multiple well-thought-of GMs and managers that even though the GM was considered among baseball’s elite, he consulted the manager as the final voice before bringing someone on….
we’ve been blessed in this generation to see 3 of the game’s elite in cox, larusa, and torre….pineila probably falls on that next level of managers of all time, which is still certainly excellent….hell, lou took a team torn apart by the pete rose gambling scandal and took them to a world series championship….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
At least you're more calm.....
“have you EVER played the game, even in little league? your comments come off as someone who learned about baseball after he was beyond the age to experience it, so you know nothing about the real game…just the stats….”
Assumptions?
And how does this discussion have anything to do with stats? I havent even mentioned them. They dont correlate with this argument.
“read comments by a guy who enters a great manager’s clubhouse, and you’ll start to understand….gary sheffield was TO on a baseball field before he went to atlanta, where he stated "i feel like i have to be a professional"….then he went to new york….all you heard about shef during that time was how he went along with his manager and gave all he had until the very end of his tenure in new york….livan hernandez even said that this year about the twins, despite him being shipped out by the team…he overly praised how ron gardenhire ran his team….”
Appealing to authority.
“where do you think they get their orders from?”
Who is out there working day in and day out with the hitters and pitchers? The hitting and pitching coaches. If anybody besides the players should get credit for what the player does, it’s those coaches who work with them each day, and the manager simply doesnt.
“and in most team situations, who do you think the final decision on signing a player is?”
The GM.
“i know from multiple well-thought-of GMs and managers that even though the GM was considered among baseball’s elite, he consulted the manager as the final voice before bringing someone on….”
Proof? And yet another appeal to authority.
“we’ve been blessed in this generation to see 3 of the game’s elite in cox, larusa, and torre….pineila probably falls on that next level of managers of all time, which is still certainly excellent”
And how are they elite? Because the GM went out there and put a great team on the field? Because the players played well?
Never, Never, NEVER give up
schuerholz
considered one of the great GMs of our time…
and he didn’t lift a finger without bobby cox saying okay first….
tom kelly often told terry ryan who he wanted targeted, and gardenhire and bill smith meet once a week to review roster movement….
and once again, your comments come off as someone who’s never experienced the game…when i was throwing, my manager was watching me warm up and helping me before the game….between games, my pitching coach gave me videos of my performances….my manager was the one that went over them with me and made strategic suggestions with me about pitch selection and location….
and you bring up appealing to authority….what do you expect a manager to be? a baseball manager is a CEO of the team….not the ditch digger….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Hmmm
"considered one of the great GMs of our time…
and he didn’t lift a finger without bobby cox saying okay first….
tom kelly often told terry ryan who he wanted targeted, and gardenhire and bill smith meet once a week to review roster movement…."
I guess you’ve got me here. I’m not sure of any of this, I’ll take your word for it though. Generally though, GM’s are pretty much the only ones involved in signing players.
“when i was throwing, my manager was watching me warm up and helping me before the game….between games, my pitching coach gave me videos of my performances….my manager was the one that went over them with me and made strategic suggestions with me about pitch selection and location….”
Did you play in the majors?
Again, I’m not saying there couldnt be a few cases in which it’s not true, but GENERALLY, the pitching/hitting coaches are hte ones working day in and day out with the players. The managers probably give their input here and there, but they’re not in the cage or in the ’pen with the players every day like the coaches are.
“and you bring up appealing to authority….what do you expect a manager to be? a baseball manager is a CEO of the team….not the ditch digger….”
You completely missed what I was saying. Read this: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html
Never, Never, NEVER give up
i think
you’ve been terribly misinformed about how teams are run and built….not sure where you’ve learned your information, but it’s grossly untrue….
your “appeal to authority” in the comments you placed it in are easily researched comments made to newspapers….research…it’s a wonderful thing….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Uhhh....
How do you know my information is untrue, but yours isnt?
Do you play in the majors?
If not, why should what you say be more true than what I say?
Never, Never, NEVER give up
majors
i do not, in fact, play in the major leagues, but i have a college friend who is currently playing on a major league roster, and a mentor who enjoyed a solid career in the majors…also have relatives in the minor leagues in both coaching and playing roles, so i’ve learned a lot about the game’s internal organs from them….i’m certainly no expert, but i trust their comments to be accurate….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
well argued
amazing the sort of aggressive ignorance one runs across on the net, but nice to read reasoned, measured, logical, intelligent responses.
my post is directed at
biggentleben, just to be clear.
thank you
i’m no angel of online posting, but this is an area where i feel i can be more in a teaching role than a debating mode….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
seriously
are you feeling like you need to comment on this? at least bring something to discuss if you’re going to come back….not an attempted put-down….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on Oct 8, 2008 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Sheffield
Had his 5 best seasons before he went to Atlanta. Which isn’t surprising based on his age, but still, there was no increase in performance when he went to those “great manager’s.” Maybe he was happier, but there’s nothing to indicate he was helping his team win more ballgames.
by yellomellojello on Oct 5, 2008 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
and that
was not at all the argument….the argument was that regardless of the stats he was putting up before that point, no one wanted him because he was horrid in the clubhouse….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Okay man...
I’ll play your game i guess… and I know I should never really take ANYTHING Bravesin07 says in reaction to something seriously but …
EXACTLY what moves did Joe Torre make in this series that you think makes Torre a better manager?
Lou has is faults…Joe has his faults…I TOTALLY disagree with the above poster. managers have a tremedous impact on a team. It just can’t be measured so…
Anyways, bottom line…Cubbies score 6 runs in 3 games. Hard to fault Lou for that if you are being honest.
bravesin07
any ranking of his “baseball insight” would be the definition of “most overrated”, unless that ranking is subzero :p
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
+1
I’ve yet to see a metric that can adequately determine managerial ability, but if you look at the impact they can have on a game when they misuse a bullpen or pinch-hit at the wrong time, or call for steals at either inopportune or opportune times, or how they use sacrifices… well, that’s a pretty big impact.
Ridiculous Post
Please site one specific example of a move Pinella made in this series that was counteracted by Torre showing Pinella was outmanaged. It had nothing to do with Pinella….7 walks by Dempster in Game 1, 4 unearned runs in Game 2, no hitting in Game 3. How does that have anything to do with Pinella?
No hitting period
Correction
They averaged 2 runs a game in the series and half of those runs came as give-aways in the last innings of Game 2 where the Dodgers were up by ten runs.
Managers manage
Hitters hit… or don’t. The lack of production had nothing to do with Lou. He ran the same line-ups out there that scored the second most runs in the league. Not his fault they didn’t show up.
It's not Lou's fault.
when will people get this? It’s the flubbies! Get it ? Isn’t their nickname the ultimate losers? Don’t their fans love losing?
9 STRAIGHT PLAYOFF LOSSES. That must be another record for losing that this franchhise has set. The flubbies don’t win. When will some people get it?
flubbies! woo!
The team was poorly constructed for playoff success
This is the result of completely ignoring OBP in team and lineup construction.
Oops, hit post accidentally
If anything, I think that may have been the best constructed NL team to make a run at winning it all. No glaring weak spot in the line-up… hell, even the pitchers hit the shit out of the ball relatively speaking. Anything can happen in a short-searies and the Cubs came in as cold as you can.
The only thing on Lou
is not having the balls to move Soriano out of the leadoff spot.
On the other hand, we have Joe Torre on the same ticket.
I really don’t care about the idea that he just can’t hit anywhere but leadoff. I still believe it hurts the team. (Although clearly not the reason they lost the series.. I’m not saying that.)
Who's world is it? It's yours.
Soriano
If it’s not broke, why fix it? If they are able to win 97 games, let it be. Soriano is as superstitious as they come. Between having to bat leadoff and that stupid little hop he does when catching a fly ball, he’ll drive you half nuts. Don’t have time to look for the stats right now, but I believe there is some statistical support letting him bat 1st as he has been pretty bad hitting in other spots – although the sample size is probably not the best. It is kinda nice when he pops a HR leading off the 1st inning tho… I think they were undefeated this year when he did that. Obviously he was unable to do that the last three games.
Tony LaRussa
Tony LaRussa has a problem with being a little to intense when it comes to post season play. He tends to choke off his team in key moments because he doesn’t allow them to go along with ebb and flow of postseason baseball. You could say that he somehow manages to get a stick up his ass in key moments. Then in the 2006 playoffs you could really see a change in his demeanor. You could see him laughing and joking it up with players in the dugout, something he would never have done in the past. I think it was because the Cardinals really did not have anything to lose that postseason, so Tony lightened up a bit and his team responded. I do agree that his micromanaging of bullpens can be tedious, but other wise he is one of the great managers of his time. And five years after he retires Cooperstown will probably be giving him a call.
Umm 2001 yanks
were going for there 4th world series in a row and 5th in 6 years,…. i think to call them good but not great is silly and misinformed.
And that 2001 M’s team.. I still cannot figure out how they won that manny games… I really cant.
Check out my baseball analysis blog FANalytics
As for the original question
Tee answer might be Dusty Baker. He’s not overrated by the internet community, but there are a number of baseball analysts who put him on a pedestal right next to God.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
Baker
I really don’t think that’s the case at all. There’s also a very fair amount of the mainstream media who think that Baker murdered Prior and Wood, and lives off of Barry Bonds. The reason for this? The Sabermetric community has gone mainstream. Joe Posnanski writes for SI, nowadays, for goodness sake. Without rehashing old arguments (a phrase that always seems to do just the opposite), I don’t think Dusty Baker is a terrible manager by any measure. In fact, he’s a decidedly good one once you get past his quirks (Corey Patterson and working his starters more than some would like).
Spoken like...
someone who didn’t watch him manage on a daily basis. You’re correct with the Patterson and pitching workload thing, but that’s just the beginning. He was terrible with matching up hitters and relief pitchers and vice-versa and was let the clubhouse go to complete shit (Farnsworth, Sosa, etc.) by the time he left town.
Braves
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvZSdCTcS-A That is all.
I think Pinella is hardly the most overrated manager of all time. That’s probably someone like Ralph Houk. Pinella’s got his ring and he did a great job in Seattle. As much as any manager can be great, Pinella’s had his day. It’s the Art Howe’s of the world who are totally overrated.
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