Vote on awards-NL CY YOUNG

Where is Lidge?

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by Metty5 on Oct 3, 2008 1:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

lol yeah right

against CC, Lincecum, and Santana?

by boonitez on Oct 3, 2008 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lidge?

Really?

Never, Never, NEVER give up

by hero66 on Oct 3, 2008 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

absolutely

run his numbers this year against closers who have won cy youngs (and mvp’s for that matter), and then come back with your response….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 3, 2008 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A closer winning the Cy Young?

Um, no. Shouldnt have happened with Gagne, shouldnt happen with Lidge. Lidge hasnt even been that great this year, he’s allowed tons of hits and walks.

No way a guy who pitches 60 innings should win the CY over a guy who pitched 200+.

Never, Never, NEVER give up

by hero66 on Oct 4, 2008 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

absolutely

a closer is just as eligible as any other pitcher….to set up limits like that is to look at baseball with blinders….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 4, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

while i dont think lidge should win it

the 60-70 innings a closer pitches tends to be mostly high leverage innings… I havent checked but a starter might not have that much more high leverage innings then a closer.

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by jbluestone on Oct 4, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not

on the list and he shouldn’t be.

1941 .406

by FrozenTed9 on Oct 3, 2008 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He should be considered

I wouldn’t vote for him, but a perfect season in saves 41-41 while the rival team in the division blows 29, (saw that number today, don’t know if its 100%) is a huge season.

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by Metty5 on Oct 3, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I agree with Metty on this one. Have we ever before seen 41 saves without a bobble ?

I probably would also have added Ryan Dempster and perhaps Edinson Volquez to the ballot.

I’m surprised at how much Tim is winning by here, but I think that shows wisdom by the group. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Johan wins the actual voting though. I began to get a bit of a confirming worry when Rich Hurd of the Bay Area’s own Contra Costa Times (for which I also write a tiny bit as a free lancer) chose Johan for the award. Prior to becoming the Times’ overall baseball writer Rick covered the San Jose Sharks and then the Oakland A’s, but still, if a Bay Area writer feels Johan is the man, that tells me Johan is likely to get a lot of votes.

For the reasons I stated elsewhere, I feel Tim is clearly deserving of the award, but Johan also had a very fine season and certainly is a deserving candidate to the extent that the award rewards career achievement.

If not for the huge FIP difference and the many smaller things such as BA, SLG, OPS, etc., I wouldn’t have been all THAT upset if Johan were to win the award. And if the FIP had been fairly close, I wouldn’t have gotten that emotional, either. But .89 runs? Wow! That seems far too great a difference to ignore.

by sharksrog on Oct 3, 2008 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes we have

A little man named Eric Gagne. In 2003 he saved 55 games and didn’t blow one chance. He continued his streak into the next season until it was finally broken after 84 consecutive chances.

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on Oct 3, 2008 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and gagne

is about the only cy young award winning closer who has had a better all around season than lidge….and the others even won cy AND mvp

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 3, 2008 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Doesn't

make it right.

1941 .406

by FrozenTed9 on Oct 3, 2008 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

A few seasons by Dennis Eckersley as well as slew of them by Mariano Rivera. Those guys have had much better seasons without winning the award.

Lidge had a great season, but no where close to Cy worthy, even if there weren’t some deserving starters on the ballot.

by slurve on Oct 4, 2008 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

johan

has had a cy stolen from him even though he had better numbers….so it’d be fitting….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 3, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow

I’m surprised Lincecum has such a commanding lead in this poll. I’d give the edge to Johan.

by Justin & Joe on Oct 3, 2008 9:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I guess based on ERA and importance to the team you could consider him better

but Tim’s got a comanding lead in strikeouts and his W-L records better. The voters for the award tend to care more about that than ERA, especially if their ERA’s are that close.

by boonitez on Oct 3, 2008 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, but...

This poll’s not asking who we think will win, but who should. And everyone here understands how meaningless a pitcher’s record is.

by Justin & Joe on Oct 4, 2008 12:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wow...

I voted for Lincecum, but was shocked that he’s winning this thing by better than 3-to-1 over Johan. It was a tough call for me (made easier because I’m a Braves fan and thus dislike the Mets).

Here we go again: http://thefulldeck.blogspot.com/

by ejruiz on Oct 4, 2008 8:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I am sorry but these poll results are a joke

I know and agree that wins for the most part are overrated, but the fact is that until Webb took a line drive off his rib cage in late august which was followed by his 3 worst starts of the season (when dealing with some pain there), he then recovered to finish strong his last 3/4 starts.

He has 22 wins (yes that does and should count), his era is top notch at around 3.24… to compare his strikeouts to lincecums is not really fair since Webb is a sinkerballer who has strong K ability, but mostly burries the ball into the ground, and is much more effecient with his pitches.

Heading into the start after he was drilled in the ribs here were his numbers

19-4 with a 2.74 era 184 ip 157 hits 153ks/45bbs and a whip of 1.098.

Now I am not claining those 3 starts dont count… they do, and they should… but Its not like B. Webb had a soft 22 wins or wasnt one of the top pitchers in baseball for 5 months and his last 4 werent so bad.

Lincecum may be the best pitcher, and might deserve the cy young… but the fact that webb has gotten 11 out of 289 votes demonstrates that this really still is timlincecum.com.

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by jbluestone on Oct 4, 2008 4:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Or

Everyone just realizes that Lincecum was significantly better than Webb. A 3.30 ERA is not going to beat a 2.62 without a large lead in IP to the guy with 3.30 (which there’s not. Lincecum has pitched .1 more inning). It’s not really that close. Webb shouldn’t be getting any votes at all.

by yellomellojello on Oct 4, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

22 wins

when we talk about wins being overrated… we are talking about a guy who wins 15 games desipite not being that great a pitcher vs. a guy who has an incredible season but is on a bad team (ala Johan last year).

When you for 5 months are pitching to a 2.74 era and and you lead all over the NL by 4 wins (20%) and your numbers are very good, and your team actually was pitching in meaningful games, and you pitch in the much tougher ball park for pitchers…. I think to say its not really that class and webb shouldnt get any votes is simply saying what you want, and not saying what is real..

If lincecum wins, I will not have a problem with it, he is one of the best pitchers in the NL this year.. and in fatnasy purposes he was probably the best, but this isnt fantasy baseball… the job of a pitcher is to win ball games… people have to keep that in mind, that its a pitches job to go out there and help his team win the game. While we as fans and fantasy players realize that predicting wins is impossible because of the “luck”… one shouldnt confuse that with a good starting pitcher winning 22 games as simply just being lucky, nor should wins be completely discredited as having any value as most people on the internet seem to be doing these days.

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by jbluestone on Oct 4, 2008 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Amen brother

I agree. love Tim but don’t feel the need to discredit Webb’s OUTSTANDING season to praise Tim’s. Winning 22 games for Arizona is quite a feat…they don’t score a ton…tough park to throw…and he’s good every year.

by casejud on Oct 5, 2008 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

this

to me is not a case of a lack of love for webb as it is a useless one-name vote….if we were all allowed to place a ten person ballot and award points based on talleys, webb would certainly be top 5….i don’t know that he’s #1 this year, though….but his season was still very good….tim’s was just better in everything but wins….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 5, 2008 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Winning 22 games for Arizona’s offense that doesn’t score a ton is Lincecum winning 17 games for SF’s worse offense?

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by WalrusMan on Oct 6, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

actually

Lincecum had about the same run support as webb both at about 5 runs per game

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by jbluestone on Oct 6, 2008 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pitcher's job

The pitcher’s job is not to win games (and that’s referring both to real wins and the stat). The pitcher’s job is to prevent runs from being scored. The win is entirely a team stat. I don’t “discredit” wins so much as I completely ignore them, because I view them as irrelevant. They don’t reflect on the only thing a pitcher is supposed to do, and that is to suppress run scoring.

I’m not saying Webb didn’t have a great year, he absolutely did. But Lincecum was clearly better, and in a one-vote ballot, the best player should theoretically get all of the votes.

by yellomellojello on Oct 5, 2008 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I actually disagree with this

The pitchers Job is to give his team a chance to win games.

If your pitching and your team goes up 10-0… it is a different situation then if you team is tied at 0-0.

As a former College D 1 pitcher, and if you listen to anything pitchers say, they will tell you if they lose 1-0.. that they did not do their job that day. It doesnt mean they pitched well, but there job is to prevent the other team from scoring more runs then their team. Some days that means allowing 0 runs, sometimes that means allowing 4-5 runs. Obviously the better pitchers tend to allow fewer runs per game… but in the real game of baseball.. the goal of any pitcher is to go out then and allow fewer runs then the opponent.

Believe me when Joba beat Josh Beckett 1-0… Beckett wasnt saying.. “well i did my job”… just like when Joba lost 2-1 he said "i broke first… my goal in this game (heading into the boston game) is to not break first.

THe problem, your looking at this game as a fantasy baseball player, or even just a fan… and in your head, strikeouts is more important (because its a pitchers skill) and wins are not because they are a product of run support and bullpen support.

Again, understand that if I had a vote I am not sure who I would give it to… and if this were a poll on Fantasy Cy Young.. Lincecum would win it hands down because he helped in more categories then Webb did.

But I think you have to be careful to value the exact same things in real life the same way we value them in fantasy, or as fans.

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by jbluestone on Oct 5, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

I would like to point out that people always say ‘wins are irrelevant’. To an extent I must disagree. Quality pitcher’s who tend to work deeper into games leave themselves with a chance to win more ballgames. For instance, since Doc Halladay routinely pitches deep into the game (the 7th inning or later) he is leaving less risk of the bullpen blowing his lead, and he gives his offense more time to score runs for him. Thus, he is more likely to win ballgames. A pitcher who is able to only go 6 inning will not receive as many chances to win games as his team has less time to score runs and he leaves risk to the bullpen blowing a win. Obviously this isn’t always the case but usually the win leader has thrown a lot of innings.

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on Oct 5, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

to add to this

I also think that wins at the middle levels are much more random then wins at the high or low ends.

For example a pitcher with 5-7 wins who pitched all year is probably not pitching very well, and a pitcher with 18+ (or whatever the cutoff should be) is probably one of the better pitchers in baseball.

I think the point to make is that of course wins shouldnt be the main factor … but it def. is a factor and should be treated as such.

I mean there is also a double standard… many lincecum supporters are quick to point out that he won 18 games on a 72 win team as a bonus point, which is 25% of the wins. Well Webb won 22 games on an 82 win team which is 27% of their wins.

Webb and lincecums run support are also amazingly similar. Webb had 5.00 , Lincecum had 4.92. Web was ranked 23rd in run support of pitchers who had at least 140ip Lincecum was 27th (this is a virtual tie).

The fact is whether people admit it or not there is a value placed on wins… however there are unnamed natural cutoffs people use… For example… Johan wasnt even mentioned in most cy young debates until he won 16 games… if Johans team hadnt blown 7 wins for him… heck even if they preserved 4.. he would be the hands down cy young vote getter…. he leads in era, was 2nd in ks to lincecum, pitched for a team that was in it all year… had a ridiculous 2nd half.

Webb carried his team for 5 months and was the run away winner of the cy young, until he got drilled in the ribs. Lincecum was great all year, but for a team that was never in it. He doesnt lead in IP, wins, era. Blows everyone out with Ks.

This should be much more of a 3 way race (and a case could be made for CC as well)… then it appears…. there is clear bias with the young stud everyone loved so much the past few years on this site…

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by jbluestone on Oct 5, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I should point out that if I had a ballot it would likely go:

Johan
Timmy
CC
Webb

However, I would not be upset if any one of these guys took the award.

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on Oct 5, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

agree with this

However, I would not be upset if any one of these guys took the award.

My point has been that All of these guys were among the best pitchers in baseball, and it should be a close vote… and the fact that its a runaway for Timmy here over a few veteran pitchers doesnt surprise me…. if Timmy had been in the bigs for a few years it wouldnt be happening.

But again if he wins, he def. deserves it, but if someone else wins, they are very deserving also…. and I would hate to see people say that Webb only won because wins were overvalued.

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by jbluestone on Oct 5, 2008 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sick

Point is Brandon Webb is just Sick and Lincecum is Sicker.

by kershaw_equals_stud on Oct 6, 2008 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

Obviously there is a general correlation between pitching well and winning games. I don’t think anyone would argue with that.

by Justin & Joe on Oct 5, 2008 1:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wording

General correlation – absolutely.

Direct correlation – not so much.

Wins are a factor, certainly not irrelevant. I don’t think anyone would say to totally discount them, just that the people that vote on this over-rate them.

by slurve on Oct 6, 2008 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So

it seems as if we are punishing Webb for not having quite as good numbers as Lincecum… should we punish Lincecum for not getting as run support as Webb?? Sure Webb carried the D-Backs on his back but I’m sure if the Giants would have had a half decent offense everyone would have said Lincecum carried the team on his back. Saying Webb is a better pitcher because of the Wins is in my eyes stupid. Yes pitching deeper into games is giving your team a better chance to win. But pitching 6 innings and giving up 0 runs is in my opinion also just a fantastic way to give your team a good chance to win. Wins are totally out of a pitchers control. He can throw 5 shutout innings or 10 and its still up to the offense and the relief to win the game. I look at a pitchers total numbers and Lincecum looks the most dominant to me. Then Santana then CC then Webb. Yes I realize Webb had issues towards the end of the season. Guess what lincecum did it the whole season with very few bumps along the way. If some claim a pitcher is better if he can win most of the time he goes out you imply he has something to do with the run support or his bullpen. Then maybe we should penalize Webb for not getting out of the way of that line drive??? I’d say he had more control of avoiding that ball then how many runs his team scored….

by kershaw_equals_stud on Oct 6, 2008 9:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

run support

lincecum got 4.58 and webb got 5.00… or thats what i found online anyways.

by kershaw_equals_stud on Oct 6, 2008 9:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

nope

Webb did have 4 but lincecum had 4.92…

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?sort=runSupportAvg&split=0&league=nl&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=pitch3&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&hand=a&pos=all&minip=180

webb is 16th, lincecum 19th. out of pitchers with 180 ip or more in the NL.

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by jbluestone on Oct 6, 2008 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry

weeb had 5 not 4 typo

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by jbluestone on Oct 6, 2008 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who is this weeb you speak of? ;)

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on Oct 6, 2008 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry

was running out… lol

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by jbluestone on Oct 6, 2008 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Caught in the Webb

I agree that one would think that Brandon Webb with his 22 wins for a contender would receive more support than he has received here. Then again, his 22 wins will likely get him several more votes in the actual Cy Young voting than he deserves. Since Brandon likely doesn’t care much about how we vote, I think overall he’ll be pleased.

Even Brandon himself has said that wins are overrated — and thus in his heart doesn’t believe himself that he deserves the award IMO.

Personally I thought it should actually have been a two-way race between Lincecum and Santana — until I saw that Tim’s FIP of 2.62 was within shouting distance of a full run LOWER than Johan’s 3.51. (By the way I believe Brandon is at something like 3.28, also well above his actual ERA but clearly below Johan’s figure.

Now I think that Tim — a close winner in my previous book — is a clear winner, which I believe would make him only the second NL pitcher in his first full season to win the award (with Fernando Valenzuela being the other).

Wins are the ultimate positive outcome. Brandon wins there. Losses are the ultimate negative outcome. Tim wins there.

Hits, walks, extra bases and runs are partial outcomes. Lincecum has a slight edge there, with better hit and homer rates than the other two and being a close second to Johan in ERA (and possibly even ahead of Johan in RA). The other two easily surpass Lincecum in walks.

But Tim’s BA, SLG and OPS are better than the other two, and he’s close in OBP.

But then the primary result of a pitcher’s efforts are his strikeouts, walks, line drive, fly ball and ground balls yielded. In great part because he is a much better strikeout artist than even Santana and Webb, Tim’s primary results were the best of the trio. That is why he blew them away in FIP.

Tim Lincecum appears to me to be an easy choice for the Cy Young Award, perhaps to the point where the voting stands. Johan Santana would appear to me to have a slight edge on Brandon — yet Brandon has only a fifth as many votes as Johan in what may be an OVERreaction to the credit Brandon will likely receive for his wins in the actual voting.

Brandon may deserve some of Johan’s votes. Heck, he might even deserve some of Tim’s — but not very many.

Brandon Webb is a very good pitcher. He won as many games as anyone and easily more than any other National League pitcher. What he is not IMO is the best candidate for the Cy Young Award. Probably not the second-best, either — although IMO that is a much closer call than mere ERA would indicate.

I could go for Lincecum as #1, with Santana #2A and Webb #2B. Johan had a marvelous finish, while Brandon pitched poorly in three straight starts (all losses) down the stretch when the Diamondbacks really needed the wins.

Both Lincecum and Santana were more consistently good than Webb IMO. And Webb himself was darn good.

And I haven’t said a word about CC Sabathia, who after coming to the NL was its best pitcher, or about Lidge, whose perfect save record should receive at least SOME credit.