You're the GM! Twins Edition
You're the GM of the Twins.
Although you lost game 163, overall the 2008 season has to be regarded as a success: you almost won the division in a season that was supposed to be focused on rebuilding.
So what are the next steps? The rotation looks sound for next year: Slowey and Baker are strong. While Liriano wasn't quite his old self, he wasn't bad by any means. Blackburn and Perkins might fade out on you, and you need to be ready with alternatives. You could use some bullpen reinforcement.
Among the position players, Mauer and Morneau are rocks. Gomez is spectacular with the glove but his hitting is horrid, what do you do about that? Should you trade Delmon Young? Or give him more time to get his power stroke in order? Can you count on Denard Span again? How do you best deploy Jason Kubel? There is a lot of flux in the infield. . who are the long-term solutions at 3B, SS, and 2B?
Have at it.
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John would you put Gomez in AAA
Or do you keep him in the lineup and hope he becomes another Jose Reyes type hitter.
by Bravesin07 on
Oct 20, 2008 7:34 PM EDT
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I'd keep in the lineup.
Batting 9th, however, until he can learn his patience.
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 20, 2008 7:40 PM EDT
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He's not going to become Jose Reyes
He won’t ever magically develop plate discipline. Perhaps more power, but never a Reyes-type jump in discipline.
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by BlackOps on
Oct 21, 2008 2:10 PM EDT
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My plan...
Keep the outfield intact. There are five quality outfielders, I know, but that is a good problem.
The bullpen is sound in my opinion as well. Although it is scary for one guy to have such an effect on the bullpen, Pat Neshek will bring this ‘pen back to it’s previous spectacular form. Little needs to be done with that.
The starting rotation shouldn’t be messed with either. The current five: Liriano, Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins are totally acceptable starting pitchers. There is depth in the minors as well with Duensing and Mulvey. They could make starts if need be in 2009.
The right infield is locked in for a long time. The left infield is the problem, though.
I would propose trading for Edwin Encarnacion. He quietly hit 26 home runs for the Reds in 2008 and is eligible for arbitration this year. Even though the Twins have Danny Valencia ready for action as soon as late 2009 bringing in a 25-year old does have it’s benefits. When Valencia is ready he will have competition for the third base job, and he won’t just assume it’s his to lose.
Also, having two capable third basemen is better than having one aging veteran and a young potential star. Although the normal answer among Twins fans would be to sign a veteran third baseman for one year, like Casey Blake for example, I would suggest trading for a semi-young, proven option. Another example of this would be Adrian Beltre.
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 20, 2008 7:38 PM EDT
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furthermore
Edwin Encar is probably a better player than Valencia anyway
by nms on
Oct 20, 2008 7:41 PM EDT
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Whom do you trade for Edwin if you're keeping the rest of the team intact?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on
Oct 20, 2008 10:18 PM EDT
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See below..
Brendan Harris and Anthony Slama. It’s probably a little too little, though.
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 20, 2008 10:21 PM EDT
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Why not move Cuddyer back to 3B for the next couple of years?
by Caernarvon on
Oct 21, 2008 11:08 AM EDT
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I wouldn't be opposed to that...
…but I doubt it would happen.
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 21, 2008 11:11 AM EDT
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Some recent study
Showed that Cuddyer was the most “out of position” player in the game.
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by RoyalsRetro on
Oct 22, 2008 1:43 PM EDT
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Encarnacion was the worst fielding infielder in majors according to keith law
he might be a left fielder soon.
by Bravesin07 on
Oct 20, 2008 7:45 PM EDT
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Well that solves the Valencia problem!
I think the Encarcion move is a strong one, for several reasons. First, Edwin’s young enough that he still has potential remaining in his bat. Second, he’ll be able to anchor the Twinks hot corner for at least another season or season-and-a-half . Third, his arm would probably play very well in Right Field if he had to move.
by demondeaconsbaseball on
Oct 20, 2008 8:27 PM EDT
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Here is my take on it:
I threw together nearly 700 words on a proposed trade involving Edwin. Here it is.
The gist of it is this:
Twins Get:
Edwin Encarnacion, 3B
Reds Get:
Brendan Harris, 3B
Anthony Slama, RHP
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 20, 2008 9:06 PM EDT
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Something tells me that package isn't enough
You would have to deal a decent starter as well. I could see something like Blackburn for Encarcion straight up, or something like that. You can always have Mulvey step in (or trade him with Slama). Also remember that the Reds have quite a few hot corner prospects (so I’ve heard- please don’t hold me to this).
by demondeaconsbaseball on
Oct 20, 2008 9:22 PM EDT
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You are right and wrong
The Reds do have some great 3B prospects but the closest would be Eric Eymann; currently in Double A, though he should start 2009 in Louisville. He is 24 years old. Juan Francisco and Neftali Soto are also both great prospects.
Harris is a decent starter. He hit at a .265 /.327 /.394 clip in 2008. His OPS is 721, but he only hit seven homers. If the Reds were to take the deal, they would enjoy a huge increase in defense, but a drop in power. EE doesn’t even want to play in Cincinnati, anyway.
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 20, 2008 10:01 PM EDT
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I disagree on eymann
Todd Frazier, Chris Valaika are probably much much closer. A lesser prospect would be Adam Rosales. All three are ahead of Eymann, and Soto eventually will be too.
I don’t know enough about those players to comment on how fair that trade is. Slama…reminds me of the 90’s pog epidemic.
by sharks on
Oct 20, 2008 10:30 PM EDT
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I'm sorry...
the chart I was looking at had Frazier and Valaika listed as shortstops. They could probably play third in the majors.
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 20, 2008 11:21 PM EDT
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no big deal
valaika might eventually stick at SS anyway but his defense is not good, but I say he would stay there becuase he might end up in the majors because of his bat and that’s an open spot, frazier I heard may move to third but could maybe stay at SS, his D is better than valaika’s.
by sharks on
Oct 21, 2008 1:52 AM EDT
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But you are right...
This package probably isn’t enough.
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 20, 2008 10:03 PM EDT
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Not Enough
The Reds wouldn’t want Brendan Harris at all. Keppinger is pretty much the same player and he will be on the bench next season. The Reds want bats. Namely a big right handed bat so they are not going to trade the only right handed bat in the lineup for pitching prospect and a player they already threw away. Much to the dismay of RedsFans Dusty Baker and Co. do love them some speedy outfielders so maybe Span and a prospect or just Gomez for Edwin might work, though I wouldn’t like either.
by kennythered on
Oct 21, 2008 8:41 AM EDT
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as a reds fan...
Encarnacion makes mistakes, but I think his range and his offense is overlooked. He’s also still fairly young.
Most of his errors are throwing errors, and a few I saw were because Votto couldnt make a pick at first I see a lot of other 1B make (he improved as the yr went on). Some would argue that those errors are still fixable, even though he’s had a few years to do it and hasnt. He still makes good diving plays, and has plenty of range making diving stops, and plays balls in front of him well (ones which you need to charge and make an off balance throw on) mostly because he’s aware of his defensive inability and works hard in practice.
I’ve also heard he’s too slow for the OF, however i wouldnt put it past him that he could play at least a decent LF personally, but I doubt he makes that move. I’ve also heard thoughts on putting him a 1B and moving Votto to the OF, however I’m not a huge fan of moving around guys like musical chairs, the Reds defense is bad enough as it is.
Worst fielder? I wouldnt say that, thats all because he makes errors, which are the discretion of the official scorer and could be helped by a good defensive 1B. He makes it to balls more than other guys Ive seen play and then overthrows, which wouldnt have been an error if he didnt have the range he does.
His throwing technique on balls hit right to him (basically easy plays) is what concerns me, becuase he has a habit of double pumping his arm (by bringing his hands together after getting the ball in order to get comfortable before throwing) when most guys get up, set their feet and throw. I wish he would change it, but I’m not 100% sure he ever will.
In summation, he’d be useful to a team as a 3B, and I think him switching positions is unlikely.
by sharks on
Oct 20, 2008 8:29 PM EDT
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David Wright
That defense sounds exactly like David Wright until he improved it during 2007. Great range, great at going in and making off balance throws, but double clutching on the easy plays and then making throwing errors. He still does it sometimes but he really improved it over the past year or two. It wouldn’t surprise me if Encarnacion could do it as well.
by supermets on
Oct 20, 2008 9:44 PM EDT
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I hope your right
Overall I like EE, however we’ve been down the he’ll improve road before…so I’m not sure it will happen. but hey, I hope he turns into david wright too.
All he has to do is reduce his errors by like 8 and he becomes a well above average third baseman.
by sharks on
Oct 20, 2008 10:34 PM EDT
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Aramis Ramirez
Has improved his defense significantly as he has gotten older, I wouldn’t be shocked if Edwin improved along those lines
by Birdfan01 on
Oct 22, 2008 3:54 PM EDT
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to clarify:
“has a habit of double pumping his arm (by bringing his hands together after getting the ball in order to get comfortable before throwing)”
This means he grabs the ball from his glove, brings it out, then bring his hands back together again, then brings the ball back to throw, a very unnecessary motion.
If a trade for delmon young could be worked out (EE and one or a few other guys) I would do it, and I bet it helped both teams.
by sharks on
Oct 20, 2008 8:39 PM EDT
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I’d be listening to offers throughout the offseason on all five outfielders, but I’d have to get something I’m pretty excited about to move anyone but Cuddyer, and I’d expect to go into the season with all five of them. I’m kind of confused at why so many people are suddenly more down on Delmon when he basically hit in line with his projections, and I’m not anxious to get rid of him just for the sake of it. Seems like maybe not meeting his overhyped expectations is leading people to underrate his actual performance.
Not sure Casilla is a solution at 2B yet, but he’s an answer that will get at least partial credit. I don’t know that I’d resign Punto and play him at SS — but that’s doubtless what the Twins will do, and I’m OK with it. One option that came up over at DTFC was trading one of the out-of-options guys for Khalil Greene, which I think is worth thinking about, maybe even if Punto is still around.
I’m on board the “sign Casey Blake” plan for 3B. There isn’t anybody out there who’s a real long-term option, even when the Twins have a budget surplus, and I’m not interested in paying what Seattle wants for Adrian Beltre.
Rotation should be OK. I’m a bit worried about depth, but don’t really have a plan to address it. I’d like another good righty reliever if one could be had, since the extra money is there, and more security in the pen is never a bad thing.
by timprov on
Oct 20, 2008 8:46 PM EDT
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not much
C – Mauer and Redmond….great combo, redmond recently renewed and mauer locked up…arguably the best catching duo in the majors
1B – Morneau…lack of homers was surprising this year, but still one of the game’s best driving in runs and playing gold glove quality defense
2B – Casilla…had some very bright spots and some dark ones as well….solid with the glove, nice speed, and a decent eye….good #8 type hitter ahead of gomez
3B – move proposed, see below
SS – move proposed, see below
LF – Young….power wasn’t there, but certainly wasn’t absent for those who saw his BP cuts….minnesota has a habit of taking a guy with a great line drive swing and turning him into a 15-home run hitter when he may have the power to hit 30 if allowed to finish his swing fully….i’d either allow the guy to finish his swing (a la the change boston made with ortiz that changed him from a backup DH to jeremy giambi into one of the most feared hitters in the game) or trade him….and depending on where cuddyer’s health is, the trade option could truly make sense….span slides over if a trade happens
CF – Gomez….lots of moments of brilliance….lots of moments of “WTF?!”….right now simply does not possess the patience to be a top of the order hitter, but still hits enough to be on base with TONS of speed to make something happen….perfect 9 hole hitter….great defender in center as well
RF – Span/Cuddyer….depending on Cuddyer’s health, he may force a move….i believe in span…as a solid #2 hitter….he’s not the high average, high obp guy of last season, but he does have good contact skills and would be a perfect guy to bunt a runner over or hit and run with, and possesses the type of speed to be a threat if the bases are empty ahead of him….cuddyer struggled with injury this year, but is not far removed from being a very viable threat in the middle of the lineup…his health at twins workouts during the offseason could spell the end of young….
dh – Kubel….very solid season, and still growing as a hitter….has streaks where he just disappears, though, especially against tough LH pitching….if cuddyer can’t go in the field, but can with the bat, kubel may move to the OF if young’s traded….
rotation – solid 1-5….Perkins was a huge asset in the pen in 2007, and if he could be bumped with the acquisition of another starter, he’d fill a needed long relief role….but otherwise, the rotation’s fine…
’pen – very solid….adding in neshek and the competition of prospect pitchers to break into the team through the pen will keep the ’pen very solid….
what i’d do….
trade with Seattle……they are losing Raul Ibanez to free agency and will be looking for someone to replace him….this is a chance for the twins to add some depth while filling a position of need…..Seattle sends Beltre and Greg Halman (with some salary) for delmon young….knowing the twins love for jarrod washburn, he may end up fodder in the deal with most salary paid by seattle in exchange for a low B/high C prospect added in….
i’d also use billy beane’s man-love for kevin mulvey against him and try to pry away one of his top pitchers by using mulvey and brendan harris….
last, but not least….sign raffy furcal….yes, i said the cubs should do this as well, but he would simply be a perfect fit for the twins….leadoff guy, solid defensive shortstop….they need both badly….
resulting lineup/rotation
Furcal, SS
Span, LF
Mauer, C
Morneau, 1B
Beltre, 3B
Kubel, DH
Cuddyer, RF
Casilla, 2B
Gomez, CF
Liriano
Baker
Slowey
Blackburn
Perkins (unless a deal is done with Beane)
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on
Oct 20, 2008 8:52 PM EDT
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As an A's fan i wouldn't trade a top pitcher for Mulvey and Brendan Harris
I wasn’t aware that Beane had any love for Mulvey either. If he does, I strongly discourage it. Whom did you mean by top pitcher anyway?
It's not the results, it's how you look going about those results -- Tim McCarver
by WaddellCanseco on
Oct 20, 2008 10:24 PM EDT
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top pitcher
i’d say that could be anything from duke to one of their prospects…..depending on what beane would give up….just that he has tried multiple times to get mulvey away from first the mets and now the twins in deals for blanton and zito….it just would seem to me like a good time to move mulvey as the bloom is still on the rose….and i don’t think he’s as good as beane thinks he is, and could bring back hefty return for that reason….i was personally thinking more along the lines of a gio gonzalez or another minor leaguer…..
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on
Oct 20, 2008 11:16 PM EDT
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Zito?
Mulvey was drafted about 6-8 weeks before the Trade Deadline when Zito was still with the A’s in 2006. In other words, he couldn’t have even asked for him in a deal, not even as a PTBNL.
Personally, if they’re just going to get another pitcher back for Mulvey, might as well keep him. IF you’re going to trade a pitchign prospect, you have to address the left side of the infield unless you can put him in a package to get an Ace… like Peavy…
by SethSpeaks on
Oct 21, 2008 9:46 AM EDT
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i don't know
i look at the twins system and see lots of nice right handed arms coming….and not a lot from the lefty side….if you can parlay one of those guys into a top-notch lefty by including in a solid utility bat, why not do it?
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on
Oct 21, 2008 12:37 PM EDT
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Beane asks for a lot of pitchers when he's talking with a GM
He would be doing a bad job if he didn’t. I’m not sure he has a man crush on Mulvey, and even if he did, why would we trade one pitching prospect for another, espcially a ‘top’ pitcher? Sure the A’s get Harris back, but he’s not really all that great, he’s just kind of average. Maybe we’d do that deal if we give u Crosby’s contract too, but I don’t think that the Twins would do that.
'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long
by DyeLongJustice on
Oct 22, 2008 12:03 PM EDT
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Halman and Beltre for Young?
Don’t you think that’s a bit too much?
I like homeless people. They are funny. I like cake. It is not funny but really delicious.
by Humongo on
Oct 21, 2008 1:36 AM EDT
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depends
on whether you think you’re getting 2008 delmon young, or if you still think there’s a lot of growth left to him….the m’s have a 3b in waiting right now, so they can move beltre, who’s in the last year of his deal….halman’s mainly so the twins have something tangible from the deal left in 2010….and halman’s a whole lot of tools right now without a lot of refining….but he’s the type of guy that the twins system could really benefit….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on
Oct 21, 2008 2:34 AM EDT
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I don't see the M's trading for Delmon Young
since Michael Saunders is about to be their LFer and they have Ichiro in RF. Unless they are going to use Saunders or Ichiro in CF. You also have to consider that Beltre will probably be a type A so I don’t see the M’s throwing Halman into the deal.
by grSHit on
Oct 21, 2008 5:32 PM EDT
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Is it me
or does Carew’s bat look like it’s bending like a bubble-shaft golf club? Or maybe I should not have eaten that mushroom given to me by Vida Blue…
by slurve on
Oct 20, 2008 9:05 PM EDT
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um
you realize that’s oliva, not carew, right?
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on
Oct 20, 2008 10:20 PM EDT
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Looks like a machete
that’s gonna slice that baseball like an apple.
by StickRat on
Oct 21, 2008 2:32 AM EDT
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they should
do some serious trading. there was some serious bubble this year. they might do well to sell high a bit. particularly on some of their pitchers.
the whole team was remarkablly healthy, and most pitchers performed unbelievablly well. that’s not exactly a reliable recipe going foward.
by RollingWave on
Oct 20, 2008 9:33 PM EDT
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Beltre and Silva
I know we’ll trade for Beltre and our end of the deal will be to take Silva and his bad contract back for free. The Twins don’t give anything up and the M’s get rid of Silva to his previous team? Seems like it works for everyone haha.
In all honesty I see the Twins offering one of Blackburn or Perkins to get either a 3B or one Middle infielder. Maybe they’ll find a way to address both positions but I see them making a big trade for one of the guys mentioned on this thread or possibly a J.J. Hardy, Cano (if really available), or someone I’m not thinking of.
Other than that, I think the Twins bullpen will be fine next year if Neshek comes back healthy. If they can get a good right handed 3B or SS/2B they should be a decent lineup once again. The pitching will be fine as long as they don’t feel the need to get another Livan Hernandez/Ramon Ortiz type to replace a current starter should they trade one of them.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
by halfchest on
Oct 20, 2008 9:51 PM EDT
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I could see a Hardy for young starter deal
Course, one could argue that the Brewers should just move JJ to 3B…
by demondeaconsbaseball on
Oct 20, 2008 10:55 PM EDT
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Are the Twins
really willing to take back all that money in contracts? Beltre is getting 12 million a year and they didn’t want to keep Silva last year. While Betre is a good fielder with power he doesn’t walk much and the Twins already have too many low OBP guys n the lineup. I’d rather see them work on getting Edwin from Cincy. He has more upside and a better contract situation.
by red257 on
Oct 21, 2008 9:54 AM EDT
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Joking
I wasn’t serious about the Twins just taking one good player and then a bad contract. I’ve never once heard of a trade like that going down although it damn near makes sense for the M’s in this scenario.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
by halfchest on
Oct 21, 2008 10:25 AM EDT
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My plan
The Twins needs are obvious. They have a clog in the OF and holes on the left side of the infield. Here’s what I’d do:
Trade Gomez and a couple of pitching prospects for JJ Hardy, perhaps Gomez/Humber/Slama. It wouldnt be too much. I feel the Twins would be much better for now going forth with Young-Span-Cuddyer rather than Young-Gomez-Span, and perhaps Cuddyer at 3rd or on the bench. I also dont think Gomez is that good, and since they have Revere and Hicks in the minors, as well as Span and Young already in the majors, they wont have any need for him in the future. For Milwaukee, unless I’m forgetting somebody (and that’s a strong possibility), they have an opening in the outfield after Braun and Hart and they could use some speed. With a lack of pitching in the minors and possible losing Sheets and Sabathia, they could also use 1 or two pitching prospects. I think this deal works out for both teams.
Sign Rafael Furcal, and move Hardy to third. I dont like the 3rd basemen available on either the free agent or trade markets, and it would work out best for the Twins to play Furcal at short and simply slide Hardy over to third. Furcal is their type of player and would probably come “cheap” considering he’s coming off an injury. It would also make Punto a utility guy, which is what he should be.
Sign Ryan Dempster, and slide Perkins into the bullpen. The Twins have got to go out and spend some money some time, why not do it now, when they’re close to going deep in the playoffs? Open up the pocketbooks a little, and go after Dempster. He wouldnt cost as much as a Sabathia or Sheets, and it’d give them a great 1-2 punch, plus a vet in that rotation to help all the young guys. I’m not really comfortable with Perkins as a full-time starter, even if it’s in the 5th spot. This would give them a great rotation and it would also improve their bullpen, making up for the loss of Dennys Reyes.
Lastly, sign Jim Edmonds or Juan Rivera, depending on who you would rather take a chance on. Edmonds still has legit 20 homer pop and could rotate with Cuddyer between RF/DH if they’re concerned with Cuddyer’s foot. He would also provide nice veteran leadership. Rivera is an interesting one. He’s coming off a decent season where he had to split playing time, and I think showed he’s recovered from his injury and can return to his form from a couple years ago. He would come cheap and could be an interesting low-risk/high-reward play
If they do these things, this is what their team could look like:
Lineup:
Span, CF
Furcal, SS
Mauer, C
Morneau, 1B
Hardy, 3B
Young, LF
Cuddyer, RF
Edmonds/Rivera, DH
Casilla, 2B
Bench:
Punto, UTIL
Harris, INF
Redmond, C
Buscher, 3B
Kubel, OF
Rotation:
Liriano
Dempster
Slowey
Blackburn
Baker
Bullpen:
LR/MR -Perkins
MR -Mijares
MR -Breslow
MR -Guerrier
SU -Neshek
CL – Nathan
That is a damn good team. It probably wont happen, but it’s definitely feasible.
Never, Never, NEVER give up
by hero66 on
Oct 21, 2008 12:17 AM EDT
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Are you nuts?
If you trade Gomez 93% of Twins territory will be hunting you down. And he IS good. He will be the next Jose Reyes.
And if the Twins go after all those guys Carl Pohlad is obviously dead.
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 21, 2008 12:45 AM EDT
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trading gomez
while is value is down a little isnt what I would do, you have to think he could repeat his fast start (pun intended) and sustain it with some seasoning.
by sharks on
Oct 21, 2008 1:55 AM EDT
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Plus...
I’d much rather have Kubel at DH than Edmonds!! Dempster isn’t an option. He’ll make too much and I dont’ think anyone really thinks he’s as good as he was in 2008.
Furcal is an injury risk… I would consider Hardy IF they can get him for Gomez straight up, but I’d keep him at SS.
I’d advocate Beltre at 3B because he’s a one year guy. 1.) I am high on Valencia, 2.) Beltre is always at his best in contract years. 3.) I think he’s pretty impressive defensively. 4.) 2 draft picks when they let him go after 2009.
by SethSpeaks on
Oct 21, 2008 9:52 AM EDT
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How would you compare Edwin to Valencia?
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 21, 2008 9:58 AM EDT
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Dollars...
Edwin has 3+ years in the big leagues and is a year older… Valencia is a yaer away. But I think the style of play could be similar, with Valencia being better defensively.
by SethSpeaks on
Oct 21, 2008 10:38 AM EDT
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Yeah why trade a CFer that can't hit
for a SS that can Madness!
1941 .406
by FrozenTed9 on
Oct 21, 2008 10:41 AM EDT
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Are you high?
Gomez will be the next Reyes?
Are you kidding me?
Speed doest mean you’re a good player. If that was the case, then Joey Gathright would be the best player in baseball.
Never, Never, NEVER give up
by hero66 on
Oct 22, 2008 12:14 AM EDT
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His comps...
at their same ages, are actually pretty damn close to Reyes.
Check out the lines on Reyes/Crawford/Gomez. Almost identical through their first full seasons, all at age 22.
The only real difference is K rate for Gomez. I think Gomez is likely to be a CF Crawford, and that’s a pretty damn valuable player.
by DJSkillz on
Oct 22, 2008 11:18 AM EDT
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i think that gomez is going to be carl crawford as well
crawford still isnt diciplined at the plate, but he has a ton of speed, gomez is faster than him though, even though crawford is a smarter baserunner. on draysbay he kid about crawford all the time that he has hackatitis, swings at everything, crawford doesnt bunt all that much, dont really understand why he doesnt.
the red sox had a 9 game elimination win streak, but matt garza was too busy rocking out to tupac to notice
by RaysOfHope on
Oct 25, 2008 12:40 AM EDT
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The onky reasonable plan...
is for Twins fans to pray that economy continues on its downward spiral to such a degree that a second Great Depression comes along (Greater Depression?). Perhaps then, the Pohlad family can spring into action, in grand, Pohlad-like fashion, stealing the homes of hardworking Americans to further contribute to their offensive wealth. Perhaps then their coffers will swell and bloat enough that they’re forced to spend money on their (er, OUR) Twins.
Then again, I did say “reasonable”, didn’t I?
Oops.
by damianschaab on
Oct 21, 2008 1:57 AM EDT
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My plan
The twins really only have a couple of areas to fix, and fixing them could easily hand them the central with a legit shot at the World Series.
1) Sign Juan Cruz or some other shutdown reliever to a 3 year deal. The pen was incredibly weak, and while it looks as though help is on the way, I’d just assume add one more arm
2) Make one of two trades: Perkins, Bonser, Buscher, prospects to Seattle for Beltre or to Milwaukee for Hardy.
3) If they make the trade with Milwaukee, sign Crede to a 1 year incentive laden deal.
4) Send Gomez to AAA to work on his plate discipline
5) Trade Buscher, Guerrier for anything or DFA them if nothing is available.
6) There may be room to pick up a 5th OF or someone else on the bench
Your roster
C – Mauer
1B – Morneau
2B – Casilla or Harris (if no Hardy)
SS – Hardy or Casilla
3B – Beltre or Crede
LF – Young
CF – Span
RF – Cuddyer
DH – Kubel
SP – Baker, Liriano, Slowey, Blackburn, Humber
RP – Nathan, Neshek, Mijares, Cruz, Crain, Breslow
BN – Redmond, Harris, Ruiz (spell Morneau at first from time to time), Tolbert or Punto (both if Hardy is not aquired as Harris starts), Pridie (or some FA pickup).
3B is intentionally setup to be a short term stop gap. That should give Hughes/Valencia time to develop and we can get an idea of one of them is for real.
by diehardtwinsfan on
Oct 21, 2008 8:49 AM EDT
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Why
trade/cut bucher for nothing he still has options and at very least could be in AAA next year.
1941 .406
by FrozenTed9 on
Oct 21, 2008 10:43 AM EDT
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Point taken
I’d assume if we were trading for Beltre the Ms would likely get him as a filler. But I do see your point. For some reason I was thinking he and Guerrier were out of options
by diehardtwinsfan on
Oct 21, 2008 11:35 AM EDT
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Agree and Disagree
I’m an advocate of possibly signing a guy like Crede to a 1 year deal like you said. As long as he’s a type B free agent next year we get at least the 1 draft pick at the end of the year plus Crede could surprise a lot of people after having another off season to heal up.
I also like Buscher and could see him being a nice addition to any trade for a 3B since it will give that team a cheap decent option for a few years to replace what they give up.
I think the pen is going to be fine. Crain will have another year post injury and Neshek should be back, hopefully just as effective. Mijares looked good and the Twins were starting to trust Breslow much more towards the end of the year. Guerrier should be better with not so much of the weight on his shoulders as well. He was way way waaayyy overused this season and it wrecked him for the home stretch. The Twins have enough young pitching they shouldn’t waste any money on a big name reliever. Someone be it Bonser, Humber, Mulvey, Swarzak is going to have to convert if the Twins start out weak in the bullpen again. The Bullpen has been the Twins strongest point for many years and only because of the loss of Neshek and the sharp decline of Rincon did it look weak this year.
No reason at all to DFA either Buscher or Guerrier. I wouldn’t want to trade Guerrier for the same reason I wouldn’t trade Gomez or Young, there value is down and I think they’re better than they did this year. If I were going to trade anyone it would be Span, Buscher, or Blackburn because I believe they all overachieved and have higher value right now than they should. It’s not that I don’t like those players I just don’t see them consistently performing like they did, especially Buscher.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
by halfchest on
Oct 21, 2008 10:44 AM EDT
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the pen
I’m not sure the pen will be fine. The outlook certainly looks better with Neshek’s return, but this pen is one injury away (or Neshek simply not coming back to form) from being just as bad. I don’t believe Guerrier will be worth much of anything next year. Neshek was overused last year like Guerrier was this year and look what happened. Personally, if we got a guy like Cruz on top of things, I’d suspect that we could just get rid of Guerrier alltogether. Even if he looks like the 2007/early 2008 version, he wouldn’t be as good as anyone else we have. We’d have a very nice pen.
My other concer with Buscher was that he defense was bad. Bad defense on the left side cost several games last season. While Buscher may be league average in terms of offense, his defense leaves a lot to be desired and getting Beltre over there would alleviate that. If Crede was the solution, I could definitely see putting Buscher back in AAA as Crede will need some insurance.
by diehardtwinsfan on
Oct 21, 2008 11:41 AM EDT
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i mostly agree with you but...
gomez isnt going to learn any plate dicipline in the minors, it is just who he is, carl crawford doesnt have good plate dicipline and he is fine.
i have been thinking about adding joe crede at 3rd as well (mostly since he kills the twins), would he be a type A free agent after he leaves after the 1 year he would be here?
i also want some type of upgrade in the pen as well even though i think that they will be ok next year with neshek coming back, but they could be the best bullpen in the league with juan cruz, still dont understand why the twins let chad bradford go to my tampa bay rays, someone shouldve claimed him to just to block the rays from getting him, but i am happy that no one did lol
the red sox had a 9 game elimination win streak, but matt garza was too busy rocking out to tupac to notice
by RaysOfHope on
Oct 25, 2008 12:46 AM EDT
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What would the Giants have to give up to get Delmon Young?
I’d love for the G’s to grab Young, but I’m not sure if there is a good fit between the two teams for trading purposes. The Giants have a lot of young pitching; the Twins don’t really need pitching. Still, I think the Twins still owe us one for taking advantage of our idiot GM and stealing Nathan and Liriano from us… worst, trade, EVAR.
Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?
by shikantaza on
Oct 21, 2008 10:32 AM EDT
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Sabean
Considering that GM still inexplicably has his job, I’m guessing the Giants would probably end up on the losing end of that one. Cain for Delmon?
by Fanon on
Oct 21, 2008 1:52 PM EDT
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Almost definitely not, barring a dumb Sabean move
I see the future, and it is Pablo
by CB30 on
Oct 21, 2008 7:23 PM EDT
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I don't know
I wonder why the Twins are looking at dealing Young. Based on his 2nd half performance and his age, I’d think they’d be excited about his future. They better not trade him unless they get a very good SS/3b back, because that’s about all they need. Maybe if they could get JJ Hardy or something….
Harris is more of a utility player. Punto, lol. Buscher probably just had the best year he’s ever going to have. SS/3b is a black hole right now and needs to be dealt with. If anything, deal Cuddyer for a decent SS/3b.
by BaseballBrain on
Oct 21, 2008 10:42 AM EDT
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Punto, lol?
He was a joke a few years ago but excelled this year. Just take a look at his 2008 line:
.284/.344/.382 with an OPS of 726. Certainly not great, and he has little power, but he is no longer a joke. He is an above-average utility infielder.
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 21, 2008 11:14 AM EDT
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OK....
If a 726 OPS is your data point to show that he’s not a joke, then you’re reaching. 726 is pretty horrible for a 3b. It would be fair for a SS, if he could maintain it.
I agree, he’s a utility player, just like Harris.
by BaseballBrain on
Oct 21, 2008 2:08 PM EDT
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2010
I think the Twins should sit on their hands this winter and focus on 2010. This year’s success was unexpected and should not cause a sense of being competitive next year. They should use 2009 as a consolidation year to let their young players mature, which means keeping all of the young outfielder and pitchers. The worst idea would be giving up a potential 2010 contributor for a 2009 rental like Beltre. If Young or Gomez regress or Span and Casilla were flukes, then the Twins can make better decisions.
The Twins should only trade for or sign players who will be with the team in 2010.
by meatdox on
Oct 21, 2008 10:43 AM EDT
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Crede and Hardy
I like the idea of signing Crede to a one year deal as it’s been rumored that he wants to do that anyhow to get his value back up after an injury laden couple of years.
Beyond that I’d love to see the Twins go hard after Hardy. While not the greatest defender on earth he could possibly switch to 2B and let Casilla take over at SS. As long as Hardy doesn’t have the same “I can’t turn and throw syndrome” that Brendan Harris has. I don’t know what they’d have to give up but I’m thinking one of either Blackburn/Perkins and a couple decent prospects.
This brings 50-60 homeruns worth of power to the Twins and what’s greater is it’s both from the right side where the Twins need it from. This combined with what I think will be modest increases from Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, and Young could make the Twins a legitimate power lineup heading into 2009.
Crede has the potential to nab at least one draft pick and when you take into consideration that Beltre could bring only one prospect as well depending on who signs him then he might not be worth the cost in prospects for him.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
by halfchest on
Oct 21, 2008 10:53 AM EDT
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Who's the guy on the cover?
That’s one hell of a swing.
by schmosterballs92 on
Oct 21, 2008 6:37 PM EDT
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The great Tony Oliva.
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 21, 2008 7:12 PM EDT
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Tony Oliva
Twins outfielder Tony Oliva, one of the best hitters of the 1960s. Would have been a Hall of Famer if his career hadn’t stalled out early due to knee injuries.
by John Sickels on
Oct 21, 2008 11:51 PM EDT
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now has a home
right in my hometown….i’ve ate lunch with the man on more than one occasion….tremendous guy who still loves baseball tremendously
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on
Oct 22, 2008 1:01 AM EDT
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John a Hall of Fame question...
Do you think that if Oliva’s knee had completely blown out and his career in was over in 1972 he would be in the Hall today? It seems as if guys like Oliva and Mattingly are penalized for going out there and playing on failing bodies as mere mortals in the eyes of the Hall. Whereas players like Puckett and Koulfax whose careers ended abruptly are given a pass on what they “would have” done. Where these guys are “could have’s”
What’s your take?
Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
Crash Davis
by Terry Ryan Jr on
Oct 22, 2008 1:40 AM EDT
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puckett and koufax
difference being that both of those guys were arguably the greatest player in the game for a period of time….puckett was robbed of multiple mvp’s, but he was the first ever to get a $3 million contract and that lasted for over a year….usually a new pay level lasts less than 3 months before someone else equals that deal….unless that guy truly is worth being the highest paid player in the game….and he was the highest paid as a pohlad player, which should really tell you something….a lot has been written ripping puckett on his statistics vs. others, but puckett’s game wasn’t defined by stats….
another point, puckett and koufax are viewed as champions….fair or not, that’s not seen of oliva and mattingly….last point, oliva i would say could have made it as his peak was that good that added time would have pushed him over…..mattingly’s peak wasn’t high enough relative to his peers to make longevity really matter….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on
Oct 22, 2008 6:39 AM EDT
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A realistic view of 2009 Twins....
C – Joe Mauer
1B – Justin Morneau
2B – Alexi Casilla
SS – Yunel Escobar
3B – Brian Buscher
LF – Jason Kubel
CF – Denard Span
RF – Delmon Young
DH – Michael Cuddyer
C – Mike Redmond
IF – Matt Tolbert
IF – Brendan Harris
OF – Jason Pridie/Carlos Gomez
SP – Francisco Liriano
SP – Scott Baker
SP – Kevin Slowey
SP – Nick Blackburn
SP – Phil Humber/Kevin Mulvey
RP – Matt Guerrier
RP – Craig Breslow
RP – Jose Mijares
RP – Jesse Crain
RP – Scrapheap/Humber
RP – Pat Neshek
CL – Joe Nathan
How do we get here?
Let Reyes and Punto walk. They will only be paid for mediocrity
Deal Perkins/Bonser to the Braves for Yunel Escobar
Keep the Buscher/Harris platoon intact. When Gardenhire went to the straight platoon at the end of the year he got pretty good production at a fraction of the cost of a Beltre
Pick up a rule 5 type player and insert into the bullpen. I think that if Gardenhire has a weakness (beyond his love for futility infielders) its that he doesn’t do a great job of managing a stretched pen. He has burned out Guirrier the last 2 years and did the same for Neshek in 07. Crain, Neshek, and Mijares are going to be solid bridges to Nathan. If anything the pen has been burned by erratic starts by players like Bonser and Livan Hernandez. If the 7th and 8th inning guys only have to pitch the 7th and the 8th instead of being pressed into action in the 5th and 6th innings.
Don’t think about the Free Agent market over the winter. The Twins could overpay for an Orlando (Cabrera or Hudson) or even a guy like Furcal, but in the long run its going to be tough. The only thing is that they might want to get a guy like Juan Cruz to shore up the pen if they deal some arms for a 3B or SS
I would also like to see Gomez have to earn a spot in the lineup, or even the big club for that matter. As nice as it is to see the amount of ground that a Young, Gomez, Span outfield covers I believe it would be best to let Carlos Gomez work on his discipline, even if its just to make him work on it. As nice as the Twins were with giving him a job and letting him work out the kinks (which is a refreshing change from teams giving up on guys like Carlos Quentin and Brandon Wood in their first 200-400 MLB at-bats) there didn’t seem to be any pressure on him to work on his craft. He makes the same mistakes, and in some circumstances seemed to regress though the year.
Pohlad isn’t going to be a big spender, maybe in 2010, but not until. I think the moves above bridges to that point when the Twins might be able to get out from Cuddyer’s albatross contract and maybe get a bat to play an OF corner or a frontline starting pitcher to give the Twins a punch like they had in 06
Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
Crash Davis
by Terry Ryan Jr on
Oct 21, 2008 10:05 PM EDT
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That sounds good.
1.) Do we really want Kubel in the OF? Granted Cuddy can’t cover that much room; but neither can Kubel. We should utlize Cuddy for his arm if it is between him and Kubel for a corner spot. Giving Kubel consistant playing time in the field could still hamper his knees.
2.) Everyone knows Gomez needs to work on his discipline, but how is he going to work on it without playing on a consistant basis? With that there is always the option of AAA for him, which I don’t really agree with. It’s hard to take away his speed and defense from the lineup though. I believe Gardy needs to put pressure on him because we have replacements; that is if none of our OFers get traded.
3.) Big fan of Yunel Escobar. That would be awesome if we could get him for Perkins and Bonser.
I don’t see Pridie on the Twins roster unless there is an injury. We would have 6 if there wasn’t and went by your roster.
Overall it looks good to me. Are the Braves quietly taking offers for Yunel Escobar?
by ahope on
Oct 21, 2008 11:16 PM EDT
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to the last question
no….but he’s being asked about all over….
he was a rumored desire of san diego’s in peavy talks, so suddenly folks think he’s available, but i think if the braves are hesitant to include escobar for peavy, that should tell you how likely they would be to accept two long relievers for him….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on
Oct 22, 2008 1:05 AM EDT
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What would it take....
I know that it might be a stretch to think that Escobar is available. That being said though if there is a logjam in the Braves org. it would be in the middle infield department. What would you think they would ask for a Lillebridge or Kelly Johnson in a trade.
Perkins and Bonser I think qualify a little higher than long relievers as well. Bonser was a mess for a good portion of the year, but has proved that he can be better in the not so distant past. Perkins did about everything expected of him. A 25 year old lefty who went 12-4 in his first full year is nothing to sneeze at. I think that he will turn into a solid 3/4 starter down the line.
Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
Crash Davis
by Terry Ryan Jr on
Oct 22, 2008 1:30 AM EDT
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different question
escobar would be nearly impossible, but lillibridge or johnson seem oddly available….the organization seems to be infatuated with martin prado….kelly johnson would probably require a package that brought back an outfielder, a need at the major league and minor league level for the twins….i’ve been wondering if there will be a push to move kelly to the outfield this spring if he isn’t moved….johnson can be a legit 20/20 guy with even higher potential in the power category….and his defense at second has come leaps and bounds….it’s still not gold glove calibar, but it won’t hurt the team….
perkins was excellent this year, unless you needed a starter going into the late innings….that was always the knock on boof, even when he was going good….i love perkins…used to work out some with him when we were both athletes at the U, but he’s always struggled after the 5th inning….even back to his college days, his velocity would drop and nothing broke the same that late…but he was that much better than everyone else in the big ten that it didn’t matter….but the majors aren’t big ten baseball…..perkins was tremendous in the swing role last year, though….and once bonser accepted the role, he had quite a bit of success in the role as well….on top of that….they would both be long relievers with the braves…the braves already have a mess of guys just like the two of them….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on
Oct 22, 2008 6:49 AM EDT
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big problem
no way at all that the braves move escobar to the twins without young or liriano involved….they asked the world for him last year before he’d proven himself….now that he has, they’ll ask the world for him….won’t happen….
i advocated for years for the twins to deal with the braves, but honestly, i’m not sure there’s a deal to be made between the two this offseason
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on
Oct 22, 2008 1:03 AM EDT
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I think it would make a lot of sense for a 3-way deal...
with the Braves and Padres. Both the Braves and Padres have what the Twins need (extra infielders, including 3b, and relievers) and both need what the Twins have, young starters and young OF’s. I could see something like this making a lot of sense for all 3 teams:
Kevin Kouzmanoff/Yunel Escobar/reliever to the Twins
Delmon Young/Jake Peavy to the Braves
Jordan Schaffer/Glen Perkins/Tommy Hanson/Matt Guerrier/2 other prospects to the Padres
by DJSkillz on
Oct 22, 2008 11:28 AM EDT
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Another question for everyone about Luke Hughes
He is listed as a 3B and from what I see he played 3rd a lot after getting to Rochester….but he played more as a LF while still at New Brittan. Is he a butcher at the hot corner? Did anyone get to see him and is willing to give me a unbiased report. The buzz between his very outlier offensive production, with babip nearing .375, no patience at all, and the fact that he might not be a true 3B all point that this might be one of the biggest flukes for the Twins in years
Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
Crash Davis
by Terry Ryan Jr on
Oct 22, 2008 1:48 AM EDT
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Hughes
fielding % was terrible at 3B (.888) and his range factor was also not good at all. This is why I don’t think he is as good of prospect as many think. He doesn’t have a position where he is good defensively. He is more than likely going to be another utility player for the Twins.
by ahope on
Oct 22, 2008 10:12 AM EDT
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He is the second coming of Nick Punto.
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 22, 2008 10:58 AM EDT
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i don't agree
Punto is below average with the stick, and pretty slick with the glove…. Hughes is probably the opposite, as a composite they might be a pretty good ballplayer… (if one believes Hughes previous season is for real)
by babaoriley7 on
Oct 22, 2008 11:40 AM EDT
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I'd say Brendan Harris...
is a better comp for Hughes.
And I don’t view that as a bad thing, but Hughes is a utility guy longterm to me. And a better one than Punto in my mind.
by DJSkillz on
Oct 22, 2008 11:41 AM EDT
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I really hate to say this...
but where are you getting your information. Punto and Hughes would be polar opposites if what I am hypothesizing is true. And at least that’s an educated guess. Between this and the opinion that the Twins have roughly 10 of the top 100 prospects I am just wondering where your info comes from.
I didn’t think that the Twins had fanboys……
Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
Crash Davis
by Terry Ryan Jr on
Oct 22, 2008 2:27 PM EDT
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I was making a generalization.
Both will be utility players. I did not even glance at the stats or anything or that nature.
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by Andersklasen on
Oct 22, 2008 6:06 PM EDT
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The "simple" solutions this offseason to me is as follows....
1) I know he’s got great upside, but if we can get Beltre and a reliever for him and Guerrier, we should deal Delmon Young. And you’re not just getting 1 year of Beltre. You’re getting a CONTRACT year away from SafeCo for Beltre, plus (likely) 2 top-40 draft picks at the end of the year when he walks. And hopefully Valencia will be ready at that time.
2) Trade a pitcher (my vote would be Perkins) and 2 prospects, possibly including Bonser, to MIlwaukee for JJ Hardy. Yes, Perkins is solid, but the dropoff from Perkins to Humber should not be significant from the 5th starter. And the offense would have significant improvement.
3) Let Reyes walk. Collect the supplemental 1st rder for a LOOGY; no brainer.
4) Let Punto walk. Tolbert is just as good and is far cheaper. Plus Gardenhire isn’t as infatuated with him (yet).
You end up with this team:
Span-LF (LF makes more sense in the Dome because it requires more range)
Hardy-SS
Mauer-C
Morneau-1b
Beltre-3b (excellent protection for Morneau)
Kubel-DH (play him every day)
Cuddyer-RF
Casilla-2b
Gomez-CF (let him continue to learn)
Bench: Backup C-Redmond, Backup MI-Tolbert, Backup OF-Pridie, Backup CI-Buscher
Rotation: Liriano, Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Humber (if Swarzak comes on, he could replace him)
Bullpen: Nathan, Neshek, Mijares, Boof, Crain, Breslow, Humber/Swarzak
That’s a world series caliber team IMO. And doable.
by DJSkillz on
Oct 22, 2008 11:35 AM EDT
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Oh, and I left off Harris...
he could either fill the 25th spot (no 12th pitcher) or be included in one of the 2 deals.
by DJSkillz on
Oct 22, 2008 11:35 AM EDT
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Joe Crede
Wouldn’t signing Joe Crede to a short term contract make more sense than trading good players for Beltre or Encarnacion?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on
Oct 22, 2008 1:45 PM EDT
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Maybe...
and I think that’s a good backup option if you can get Crede to agree to a 1 year, incentive laden deal; he might do it because he could reestablish value.
But he’s a big injury risk, and he’s not nearly the same player that Beltre is. Plus, again, you’re not just trading a guy like Delmon Young straight up for 1 year of Beltre. You’re trading him for a CONTRACT year for Beltre (away from SafeCo) as well as (likely) 2 top 40 draft picks in the 2010 draft. That’s valuable.
I like Delmon, and yes, he still has a lot of upside, but he also doesn’t “fit well in the clubhouse” according to sources and is not your typical Twins guy. Plus, it might be a couple years before he really reaches his potential and at that point you have to think that one of Hicks, Revere, Morales, Parmelee, or Benson should be pretty close to being ready. That softens the blow in my opinion.
by DJSkillz on
Oct 22, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
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Risky
Crede is a pretty risky guy to depend on as your third baseman. He’d be better for a team on the fringe of contending than for a team like the Twins who are pretty much a sure-thing to be in the thick of things. They need someone who can provide some semblance of consistent production from third, as it’s been a position in flux for the Twins for a very, very long time.
by Fanon on
Oct 22, 2008 2:04 PM EDT
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Hardy
Glen Perkins and Boof Bonser would not be enough for the Brewers to trade J.J. Hardy. Sorry.
by jonk1982 on
Oct 23, 2008 11:58 PM EDT
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Perkins, Boof, and a good prospect...
I think is about right.
Boof could be pretty darn solid in the NL, and would AT LEAST be a good reliever there, which would help Milwaukee.
While Perkins is a 3 or 4 starter in the NL.
I don’t think those 2 plus a prospect is out of line at all.
by DJSkillz on
Oct 24, 2008 10:46 AM EDT
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Twins should talk to the Padres about a swap of young talent.
http://baseballhandyman.blogspot.com/2008/10/trading-pieces-san-diego-padres.html
Mike Newman
baseballhandyman.blogspot.com
by Baseball Handyman on
Oct 26, 2008 5:58 PM EDT
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I agree that the Padres and Twins make excellent trading partners...
See above.
The Braves make a great trading partner for the Twins as well.
Both teams need young talented OF’s and pitchers, and the Twins need young talented infielders, especially at 3b.
by DJSkillz on
Oct 27, 2008 3:11 PM EDT
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