Post Season Awards

Comeback Players

Were already named: Brad Lidge and Cliff Lee.

by Fanon on Oct 1, 2008 10:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I predicted

Kerry Wood would get the NLCBPY and I think he got robbed.

by slurve on Oct 1, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

… thats a funny award. I never really know if it is A) Player who was already good…became bad… than became good again or B) Player who was good… overcame something a little more significant than a off-season… became good again

I kinda prefer the second but the voting doesn’t always go that way.

by casejud on Oct 1, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i realize this

i just was naming who i would vote for, not who i think will get voted for….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 1, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Difference of Opinion

Some of those things just seem … way off I guess, mostly in the value provided to relievers and half season guys.

AL MVP – (1) Pedroia (2) Morneau (3) Sizemore
AL CY – (1) Cliff Lee (2) Halladay (3) Mussina/Ervin Santana
AL ROY – (1) Longoria (2) Alexei Ramirez (3) Armando Gallaraga
AL MOY – Madden

NL MVP – (1)Pujols (2) Howard (3) Wright
NL CY – (1) Lincecum (2) Santana (3) Webb
NL ROY – (1) Soto (2) Votto (3) Jurjjens
NL MOY – (1) Pinella (2)Torre (3) Manuel

by thudean on Oct 1, 2008 11:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree with your statement.

I love K-Rod, nothing against him…great year but I don’t think the Jays would trade 2 of him, maybe 3 of him, for Roy Halladay.

Also, it’s funny how some act like there was a close race for MVP in the AL when Dustin Pedroia TOWERED over the league like Joe Morgan in his prime this year. Excellent 2b leads league in Runs Created. Case closed!

The NL CY is the most interesting one to me. You can make a good case for Santana, Timmy or Webb. I thought Webb had it in the the sack but he struggled some right when it counted and Timmy was awesome but not quite awesome enough to overcome Johan’s late season performance. He pitched like a franchise pitcher down the stretch for the Mets. He gets my vote.

by casejud on Oct 1, 2008 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pedroia

According to fangraphs.com, Pedroia is behind Sizemore and Hamilton in RC. Both of whom play CF (and Sizemore plays it exceptionally well). I can’t imagine how Pedroia “towered” over either of them. For that matter, I’d put Markakis and Youkilis at the same level, at least. Youkilis has 89 points of OPS on Pedroia, and Markakis has 28 points of OPS on him (and 30 points of OBP, which is more important).

by yellomellojello on Oct 1, 2008 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do you really...

think that Youklis was a more valuable baseball player than Perdoia this season or are you just playing devil’s advocate? A second baseman who makes as many plays as Dustin does is extremely valuable especially one who helps put runs up as well as anybody in the league this year. It’s his year clearly.

by casejud on Oct 1, 2008 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not devil's advocate at all

Defensive is valuable at second base. But 89 points of OPS is very valuable too. That’s a pretty massive offensive difference, especially considering Pedroia isn’t anything special defensively. Also, for whatever reason, a good 1B was very hard to find in the AL this year. Youkilis was far and away the best 1B in the league.

by yellomellojello on Oct 2, 2008 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He was the best both offensively and defensively

by demondeaconsbaseball on Oct 2, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What?

especially considering Pedroia isn’t anything special defensively.

Pedroia has been very good defensively. Chris Dial at baseballthinkfactory had him at +8.70 Defensive Runs Saved, second only to Mark Ellis (12 something) IIRC. The other metrics all have him as one of the best defenders at 2B I believe. All the hardball times defensive metrics have him no worse than fourth and I think once fifth. I think Dewan/Fielding Bible has him around the same as Dial.

I think most people who watch him believe he’s a great defender, as well. Gets to a ton of balls, which isnt shocking because he was a minor league SS all the way and showed up as having great range at 2B last season. I would say he is very much something special defensively. Certainly enough to boost his MVP cause.

by alskor on Oct 2, 2008 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I use hardball times

I like their defensive stats the best, they tend to be the most consistent from year to year. Pedroia is ranked 5th overall their in the AL, smack in the middle. (Slightly higher RZR, far less OOZ plays than Jose Lopez). I’ll admit I could be wrong on this, defensive metrics are all pretty iffy. Either way, I don’t think it’s a big enough factor to make up for offensive differences.

by yellomellojello on Oct 3, 2008 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sizemore is clearly a superior player to Pedroia

The only justification for giving Pedroia the award is the unrefutable (but, IMO, stupid) one that he is on a playoff team and Sizemore isn’t.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 1, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you say so.

Personallu, i would probably take Sizmore over Pedroia if they were lined up and i was picking players but Pedroia deserves credit for the season he had. He deserves to be MVP.

by casejud on Oct 1, 2008 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and if he played in Kansas City, no one would be talking about him.

He had a very good, even great season, and deserves to be considered for the MVP and may well win it, but the question isn’t clear cut by any stretch of the imagination.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 1, 2008 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Once again

it seems your argument’s only grounding is “because I say so.”

Sizemore’s been very good, but Pedroia has had a year just as good.
Their hitting numbers are almost identical and both are good defenders at up-the-middle positions and both are highly effective basestealers.
Sizemore’s probably better at his position than Pedro and hes got a 38/5 SB/CS line to Pedro’s 21/22 but that still puts them pretty close. Certainly for too close for your bluster about the “the only justification, blah blah blah”

by nms on Oct 1, 2008 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dude, STFU

Seriously.

AL OPD figures. It’s not even fucking close. Sizemore has a 17 run advantage. And that’s in a metric that gives Pedroia huge and, IMO, unjustified defensive credit.

The justification is out there. I’m not going to footnote every single fucking post I make. There are politer ways of asking for source material than by accusation.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 2, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1 mostly...

I think I agree with most of your choices. I think I would put Berkman as the #2 NL MVP though, moving the other two down a spot. Just my personal opinion. Also, as much as I like Pedroia, I just can’t see him as the Most Valuable Player. I love the kid, I’ve preached his attributes on here, I have tried to trade for him in my keeper sim league I am in, but at no point during the season (except those 3 or 4 games they batted him clean-up and he delivered) did I think I was watching an MVP. But of course, no one in the AL was truly dominant this year after Quentin got hurt and the two Rangers candidates slowed down.

I also think I would give K-Rod the #3 spot in the AL Cy Young race (although I think the writers give him #2), and I would put Manuel above Torre and Pinella in the NL MOY Award. With his starting pitching staff after Hamels he had to do a lot to make that team work. Pinella could have let his team run on auto pilot most of the year and Torre had more players to choose from than Jessica Alba on a Navy ship.

Nice to see you give Gallaraga and Jurjjens props though. Two of my favorite break out candidates this year.

"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile

by Boxkutter on Oct 1, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

K-Rod

What a great season but i don’t see as as having almost ANY value and certainly not even close to that of Ervin Santana. Come to think of it would ANY team trade it’s best or even second best starter for K-Rod? I’d rank him somewhere between 15-20 in the CY race, sorry.

by casejud on Oct 1, 2008 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

way off

multiple baseball writers have already stated that they are going manny/cc for mvp/cy in the national league….and it’s hard to argue that….both players had arguably as much influence on the races as any other player in the league….and if you’re going to lower the value of relievers, how can you do that in favor of starters….brad lidge saved 41 games this year…the league was led in starts by multiple guys with 34….who had more influence on his team’s success from the mound?

and i’m surprised at the lack of love for cecil cooper….most had the astros completely written off this year and he had them competing until the very end….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 1, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hamels

Hamels and even Moyer were more valuable to the Phillies. A good way of guaging this is to see how many Lidge’s it would take to aquire one Hamels. 3 isn’t enough, maybe 4?

by casejud on Oct 1, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The starters did, for pitching ~3 times as many innings.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 1, 2008 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i disagree

and i guess we’ll have to agree to disagree because in today’s game, a starter gets a quality start for posting a 4.50 era for only six innings….that leaves three innings that need to be finished, and if they’re also pitched at that 4.5 era level, there’s a lot of losses that come….

i’m not saying that a dominant starter is less than a dominant closer, but in the absence of a truly dominant starter leading one of the contending teams, a closer becomes a very viable cy young candidate….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 1, 2008 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well then chop that stupid “contending team” condition off. Who’s the best pitcher? It doesn’t matter what team he pitches for. Hell, Santana was dominating and he led a contending team, so clearly you just want to find a reason to justify picking an inferior player.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 1, 2008 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

i don’t need to find a reason to pick one of the best reliever seasons in the last few years….nevermind what he’s reportedly done OFF the field with their middle guys who went from average to putrid in ’07 to a depth of stud middle guys in ’08….

and cy young has essentially become the best pitcher on a contender because people won’t consider pitchers for mvp, so the standards for that award end up coming to the cy young as well…

but thanks for trying to have a logical, well-thought discussion before resorting to name calling and attempted undercutting….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 1, 2008 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t recall name calling, maybe you should work on reading comprehension. Anyways, Santana was on a contending team and was more valuable than Lidge, so explain that.

nevermind what he’s reportedly done OFF the field with their middle guys who went from average to putrid in ’07 to a depth of stud middle guys in ’08

Sweet! Fluff and random coincidence. Regardless of whether or not there is any substance to this, it has nothing to do with the Cy Young Award.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 1, 2008 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

stupid

i typically don’t call someone’s comments “stupid” without it intending to be meant at the poster….

and i got that “fluff” from Kruk on Baseball Tonight, who i’d consider one of the most connected national analysts to the philly clubhouse….and MVP absolutely includes such “fluff” as improving teammates through leadership….and it has swung voting in the past for or against certain guys….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 2, 2008 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

HAHAHAHAHA

You’re quoting Kruk? This is too good. How, exactly, do you prove that Lidge improved his teammates through leadership? Because Kruk says so? Because Kruk talked to some guys in the clubhouse and they said so? Well, I’m sold.

Anyways, yes, I attacked the idea of requiring a contending team, but not you.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 2, 2008 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

once again

you find another person better connected in the national media to the phillies clubhouse, and you can laugh all you’d like….

i’m a huge johan santana fan, but the flat truth is that, though he was on a contender, his bullpen cost him the cy young….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 2, 2008 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You don't think

Kruk is a little BIASED towards the Phillies, do you?

by Lunkwill Fook on Oct 2, 2008 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

of course he is

but that has nothing to do with him reporting about the phillies….he’s not even one that has commented about voting for lidge (and it wouldn’t matter anyway as he has no vote)….various baseball writers on shows on fox, espn, and tbs have mentioned their choice of lidge this year along with articles from various voting members in their local papers as to why they’re choosing him….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 2, 2008 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And they’re all morons and making a terrible selection if that’s the case.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 2, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't support it

Lidge’s season was very good and he should probably finish top 6. But it was NO WHERE near as good as the last reliever to win the Cy Young. It just comes down to the fact that relievers are NOT as valuable as starters so, as a reliever, you better have a historic season to beat them. Lidge did not, despite the perfect save percentage.

by Lunkwill Fook on Oct 2, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well....

checking all the relievers to have won CY since 1980 (multiple of which also won MVP), lidge’s season ranks right up there with them:

lidge: 41 saves, 229 ERA+, 11.94 K/9, 2.63 k/bb
gagne: 55 saves, 335 ERA+, 14.98 K/9, 6.85 k/bb
eckersly: 51 saves, 196 ERA+, 10.46 K/9, 8.45 k/bb
davis: 44 saves, 192 ERA+, 8.94 K/9, 2.97 k/bb
bedrosian: 40 saves, 150 ERA+, 7.48 K/9, 2.64 k/bb
w.hernandez: 32 saves, 204 ERA+, 7.18 K/9, 3.11 k/bb
fingers: 28 saves, 332 ERA+, 7.04 K/9, 4.69 k/bb

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 2, 2008 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Comeback player

I really think they got it wrong with Lidge. Don’t get me wrong, he had a great season. But he had an okay season the year before (take Lidge’s 07 and put him in the 08 Mets bullpen and he’s probably the best reliever there). I think better candidates would have been Cantu or Tatis. I mean, for God’s sake, Tatis wasn’t even in the majors last year.

by Lunkwill Fook on Oct 1, 2008 11:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Good point

I probably would have voted cantu though. He was practically GIVEN away by the Rays last year wasn’t he?

by casejud on Oct 1, 2008 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cantu

Yeah, pretty much. That’s why I think either Tatis or Cantu make MUCH better candidates. Lidge didn’t come back from anything. He just had a really great year after a mediocre one.

by Lunkwill Fook on Oct 1, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess you could say

that Lidge had to bounce back from the mental effects of Albert b-tch smacking him in the playoffs, but really he “came back” from that last year.

by nms on Oct 1, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree on some of the Comeback awards

its more of an award they give out just for the fun of it so there isn’t much point debating who deserves it more, but I much rather prefer the winners to be guys who really had to come back from somewhere (Indy leagues or out of baseball – like Jody Gerut – building churches in the Dominican – like Tatis – or some foreign league like Julio did back in the day) or something (like some career threatening surgery)

by nms on Oct 1, 2008 12:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you...

like Hamilton and Meat Hook last year. Now they OVERCAME some things!

by casejud on Oct 1, 2008 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ellsbury for 3rd

is an everyday OF with mediocre production offense + great speed/defense, get the nod over a dominant reliever but limited to less than 50in like a joey devine?

by Asfan4ever723 on Oct 1, 2008 1:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

um....

can you repeat the part where you said all about the, um, things?

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 1, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sabathia

I really think that CC will win the NL Cy Young, despite the fact that he only pitched 1/2 season in the NL. He did dominate and his performance down the stretch was remarkable.

by bunner on Oct 1, 2008 3:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Santana

And yet Santana won pitcher of the month in September. What does that tell you?

by Lunkwill Fook on Oct 1, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I really think Sabathia should win the NL Cy Young. Its tough because he was only pitching half a season. But he really dominated in that time (7 CGs is crazy) and really carried the Brewers to the playoffs. I almost think you could make a case for him to be the NL MVP.

by edsachs1 on Oct 1, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ridiculous!

Completely ridiculous. First of all they wouldn’t have even been in contention without all the other players.

CC made 17 greart starts but he didn’t even bother to show up for the other 17-18 (kidding I know but would anybody else be excused if they were injurde for half the season).

I don’t care how freaking great CC was he isn’t better than 15 more starts of Lincecum, Webb, Santana or anybody who is any good.

This whole stupid discussion is only excists because people have ENORMOUS freaking blind spots as to the value of players and wins.

The idea that Manny or CC should win an award for an entire 162 game season is really stupid. I wish peolpe knew how to think that sort of thing through for a second. It’s really kind of funny. This is a TEAM game guys.

by casejud on Oct 1, 2008 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Blind spots

Not to mention timing of wins. Wins in April are equally as important as wins in September.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 1, 2008 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That may be true, but writers don't care about logic,

they care about great stories. I’d vote Lincecum-Santana as my 1-2, but plenty of people on these boards have ripped into me for it.

by JayWise on Oct 1, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I’m just talking about what’s deserved. The Sabathia argument is the most ignorant thing I’ve ever heard. Yes, he was amazing, for a HALF season. Sorry, his value does not match up with Lincecum or Santana.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 1, 2008 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

no

he was pretty great for a full season

by nms on Oct 1, 2008 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was obviously talking about his NL pitching only.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 1, 2008 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know

which is my point.

by nms on Oct 1, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s not much of one. His NL pitching comprises 130 IP, or a little more than half a season.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 1, 2008 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

its alot better

than pretending CC only threw those 130 IPs this year.

by nms on Oct 1, 2008 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No one’s pretending, but for the NL Cy Young award only those innings count.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 2, 2008 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting

I DO see your point but what would you propose? Just ONE MVP and CY Young winner or just make an exception when someone is traaded?

BTW doesn’t CC’s performance with the Indians deag his chances DOWN, not up? Not that he was bad but he wasn’t at his very best.

The funny thing is that Manny Ramirez is the one most deserving of this argument. He was instrumental in 2 TEAMS winning pennant races and his overall numbers stack up with anybody’s in the game.

by casejud on Oct 4, 2008 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why is it that a guy is perfectly eligible to win the Cy Young if he is traded within his league

but not if he is traded across leagues? Gosh, he didn’t help his eventual team that much either.

Was it Sabathia’s fault that he was moved? Did he demand a trade? No. All he did was go out and pitch, very very well.

Personally I think Lincecum just edges him for the season but excluding his AL stats is flat-out retarded. He should be eligible for AN award, I don’t care how you decide it, and whichever award he’s eligible for, he should finish very close to the top.

Frankly I’d just do away with the separate-leagues thing and have one MVP and one Cy, but eh. The least you can do is not toss guys out based on irrelevant technicalities they have no control over.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 1, 2008 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

regardless....

cc did something this year that has not been done in a decade….pitch 10 complete games….a LOT of writers are ga-ga over a guy who goes at least a little old-school and just takes the ball whenever he’s asked to and finishes the game….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 1, 2008 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They're eligible

But it’s not the MLB Cy Young; it’s the NL Cy Young, and if you weren’t the best NL pitcher over the 162 game season, I don’t see why you should get it.

by mraver on Oct 1, 2008 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

I don’t want just one CY and MVP, I still like having one per league, but in this day and age where the wall between leagues has mostly been struck down (for better and worse) it makes no sense to disqualify a player from taking home an individual honor because he was traded.

by nms on Oct 1, 2008 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I think the fact that there is an NL and AL Cy Young winner makes it pretty clear why you only look at one set of stats. If it weren’t for Cliff Lee, would you support Sabathia for AL Cy Young this year?

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 1, 2008 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you decide he's eligible for AL Cy Young instead of NL

then I would put him immediately behind Lee and ahead of Halladay, based on their respective ERA+, WPA and pitching runs above average, yes.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 2, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’d say he’s eligible for both AL and NL, but you have to look at what he did in each league separately.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 2, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK

That position is idiotic. Just so you know.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 2, 2008 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The 4 or 5

of you need to listen to this woman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p063wg78Yss

by slurve on Oct 2, 2008 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can’t see how. He pitched in both leagues, his stats in each league should count towards each award.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 2, 2008 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

...or you could come up with a policy that actually makes sense

and doesn’t just randomly hose people for something they have no control over.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 3, 2008 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No control?

I do believe the only reason the Indians traded him is because he didn’t sign a contract extension. If he had signed that, he would still be in Cleveland right now.

You may believe that he is getting hosed, but he had control over it. But “hosing” him seems fine if it means you aren’t counting AL stats for an NL award or vice versa.

"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile

by Boxkutter on Oct 3, 2008 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Freakung assinine!

I say this with a smile on my face so don’t accuse me of being mad. I’ll go over this real slowlike…

A) A person’s contract situation is business, money, livelihood, hence more important than any award. Noo ne but a dumbass would stay with a team so they could win a CY Young

B) An award is just a recogition of someones ACTAUL VAUE. You know, the kind of thing that most of us like in life. I know it is naive but I think we should find a way to get the deserving person or persons thier just due if at all possible.

What the hell is so complicated about THAT?

BTW CC Doesn’t deserve the CY for his pitching for the whole season anyways. Manny does though. 2 teams wouldn’t be in the playoffs without him. Not really the point though. Point is he was arguably the best offensive player in the game for the entirety of the season.

by casejud on Oct 4, 2008 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did you watch Manny in Boston?

The guy was a cancer in the clubhouse and misbehaved his way out of Boston. If anything, he should lose votes for his behavior there, not gain them. When all your teammates vote and say they want you gone, you should not be eligible for MVP with that team.

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on Oct 4, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Integrity and Character

are listed as things to consider on the MVP ballot, in fact.

by alskor on Oct 4, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure whatever dude

Manny won 2 world titles in Boston so beseides all the bitterness there …that goes 2 ways btw… he PLAYED plenty good baseball while he was there and COMPLETELY lived up to that contract.

Besides, I am not talking about dumb FAN SHIT. I’m talking about something not too many people care about “actual value” you know, like he helped tham win a lot of ballgames.

by casejud on Oct 5, 2008 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok

but the MVP award is not about “actual value.” It has a set of criteria on the actual ballot which you seem to be ignoring.That’s not “dumb fan shit.” That’s the criteria for award selection. This isnt the Hank Aaron award, its the MVP.

by alskor on Oct 5, 2008 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let me make this clear

I LOVE Manny. The guy can rake. However, when your teammates vote and state they no longer want you, you cannot be MVP. That isn’t ‘fan shit’.

Also, how can Manny be MVP of Boston when he routinely got ‘righthanderitis’ when facing the top righties in baseball. He skipped Joba (twice), Felix Hernandez (twice), Edinson Volquez, and Justin Verlander. The team was so upset that they forced him to take MRI. Do you know what the MRI showed? Well it took a while because Manny forgot which knee was ‘hurting’. They ended up doing the MRI and ‘shockingly’ it came back clean. Manny is a great player but his behavior in Boston eliminated him from any AL MVP discussion. Baseball isn’t only about numbers and ‘actual value’. It is a team sports and when your behavior and refusal to play impacts your team, you should be held accountable.

Here is the link if you don’t believe the story about joba-felix-itis:

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter&month=7&year=2008

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on Oct 5, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't care

That whole thing was a TWO SIDED contract dispute and ownership always wins those battles with public opinion because we love to abuse the ballplayers we are jealous of. Well, I’m not but millions are.

Players didn’t want Manny gone they wanted the situation gone so they could concentrate.

Manny has been percieved as a complete delight in LA. I guess he’s just a completely different guy now right? No, he was mostly productive AND delightful in Boston too except near the end.

The point is that he was still productive and helped them win games THIS SEASON despite alleged fake injuries, dogging it, assulting people, jaywalking or whatever else other STUPID TABLOID FAN SHIT thyat I don’t care about. I’m not a lady and I don’t like soap operas…I like BASEBALL.

by casejud on Oct 7, 2008 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you're falling back on technical legalism, no, he did not have a right to stay in Cleveland

He was not under contract and the Indians were not obligated to sign him. He did not control the situation.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Oct 5, 2008 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

problem solved

3 cy youngs will now be given every year. The AL Cy Young, the NL Cy Young, and the AL-NL Cy Young (need 15 starts in each league to qualify). I think they should quick make that rule for this year.

I agree that CC should not win the Cy Young but in my opinion he should get a few votes for MVP or Cy Young.

by kershaw_equals_stud on Oct 3, 2008 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

MVP
NL – Pujols – not even close.
AL – Hamilton – dark horse pick. Good stats. Great story. Totally biased pick.

CY Young
NL – Lincecum – 1st in K’s (by a ton), K/9, hits allowed per 9, ERA+, and BAA of all NL pitchers with more than 180 innings pitched, 2nd in ERA. Only Santana had a better WHIP among the major contenders
AL – Halladay (tough one over Lee, but CG’s get me)

ROY
NL – Soto (barely over Votto, but he did it in a
AL – Longoria

Comeback (should have won)
NL – Cantu
AL – Cliff Lee (that’s an easy one)

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 1, 2008 10:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

My Choices

MVP
AL – Pedroia – Great year at the plate. Really stepped up after Manny was traded. Sparkplug for Boston
NL – Pujols – The only reason that the Cardinals weren’t competing with Pittsburgh for divison futility

Cy Young
AL – Lee – Likely will never come close to this success again (Loaiza anybody?) but you can’t ignore his numbers
NL – Johan – Led in ERA and innings pitched. Timmy and Sabathia are 2nd and 3rd.

ROY
AL – Longoria – Easy choice in my opinion
NL – Soto – Ditto

Comeback (Should have won)
AL – Lee
NL – Cantu – Last year Cantu showed he “can’t hit”. This year he proved he still “can hit”

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on Oct 1, 2008 11:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I know you're being hyperbolic but

I think you’ve got to give Ryan Ludwick some credit for STL>Pitt
Actually the whole STL offense this year was pretty damn good except for the usual no-hit spots (SS/2b) and even then you had Aaron Miles contributing a little bat when he played 2b/SS and Yadier Molina being a solid hitter for his position.

They had some good performances on the mound too, like Mr. Lohse

by nms on Oct 1, 2008 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

To be fair...

My comments about the Cards are obviously meant to emphasize the dominance of Albert. Take Pujols off that team and do you think Ludwick puts up those numbers? Pujols’ presence in the lineup has a tremendous positive effect on those around him, similar what Bonds did for hitters such as Aurillia, Grissom, etc.

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on Oct 2, 2008 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

longoria

not that he wasn’t great, but i’m not sure how “easy” a choice it is over alexei ramirez, jacoby ellsbury, and armando galarraga….i do believe he takes it….but i think it’s closer than most are making it….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 2, 2008 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's easy

his stats dwarf the other guys.

if there’s someone who was close, it was mike aviles. who is a nobody because of where he plays. even though he graded out as a plus defender at SS and had an .833 OPS which put him #1 in the american league for shortstops with at least 425 PA’s.

Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.

by doublestix on Oct 2, 2008 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

innings pitched

Johan led by 7 innings. That’s not a lot. If you consider that Lincecum was oddly pitched out of relief in his first scheduled start of the year (and only went 4 innings, rather than 6 or 7) and was knocked out a game in Houston that he was dominating after getting hit by a line drive in the knee (and didn’t miss a start) in the 5th inning, those two games alone would easily have closed the gap to even more insignificant amount or eliminated it altogether.

Plus, Lincecum led in ERA+ and didn’t have the advantage of pitching against the Giants.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are you really....

….arguing the same point in two separate threads?

by Lunkwill Fook on Oct 2, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Should he be arguing two different points in the two threads?

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Oct 2, 2008 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Incongruity

Brad Lidge. Cy Young. Incongruity.

Actually, 41 saves in 41 opportunities is close to perfect. REALLY close. And take away two appearances in which he yielded seven runs, and his ERA is down around one.

But I have a hard time giving the award to a reliever who walks over one batter every two innings.

by sharksrog on Oct 2, 2008 7:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i don't really see

the validity of placing high importance on peripheral stats for the Cy Young award, except as maybe a tie breaker.
To me, the Cy should be about run prevention

by nms on Oct 2, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True

Peripherals are an INDICATOR of dominance and of future performance but awards are really (or should be) about RESULTS.

BTW I wanted to adress you CC comments about the CY. Interesting that Manny Ramirez is actually deserving of a full-season MVP don’t you think. He was actually arguably the best offensive player in the game for the whole season and impacted 2 pennant races.

CC kinda let the Tribe down really didn’t he. He sucked when it mattered most for them almost as much as he was great for the Crew.

by casejud on Oct 4, 2008 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

case

you’ve said it three times in the thread already, but i absolutely agree with you on manny….if pujols didn’t have the season he did on a bum wing, i’d say you go manny, no question….

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Oct 4, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I actually

do agree with you. Pujols season was better i just thought Manny deserved mention in that vein at least as much as CC did and besides that nonsense at the end of his GREAT RUN in Boston he had an MVP qulity season.

by casejud on Oct 5, 2008 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs