Community MLB Player #12

by PujolsJunkie on Jan 30, 2008 2:41 PM EST Comment 43 comments

The controversy ends, as Vlad leaves the poll with a victory over Mauer, Rollins and Holliday. The guy may not be 25 anymore, he may not be hitting 40 HR, but he is beyond feared when he steps to the plate. He's also still out in right field more often than not, so I wouldn't rate him defensively as equivalent to a DH, as has been said.

Fantasy is not the focus of these polls. Overall play is the general thing to keep in mind when you value the player here. It's all about who you'd want to build a team around here in 2008 and for the next few years beyond it. Anyone that receives under 5% of the vote is subject to removal, with 2% being automatic. The last spot on the poll is generally a spot where I test certain guys out to see how they do, so don't flip out about it.

If you vote "Other," please specify who you'd like to see on there.

The 2008 Community MLB Top 100 List

1. Alex Rodriguez, 3B, New York Yankees 2. Albert Pujols, 1B, St. Louis Cardinals 3. Johan Santana, SP, Minnesota Twins (pending physical and contract) 4. Miguel Cabrera, 3B, Detroit Tigers 5. David Wright, 3B, New York Mets 6. Hanley Ramirez, SS, Florida Marlins 7. Chase Utley, 2B, Philadelphia Phillies 8. Jose Reyes, SS, New York Mets 9. Jake Peavy, SP, San Diego Padres 10. Grady Sizemore, CF, Cleveland Indians 11. Vladimir Guerrero, RF, Los Angeles Angels

Poll

Who is the #12 overall player in baseball?

Troy Tulowitzki, SS, Colorado

4 votes

Other

6 votes

Joe Mauer, C, Minnesota

54 votes

Jimmy Rollins, SS, Philadelphia

26 votes

Matt Holliday, LF, Colorado

23 votes

Josh Beckett, SP, Boston

20 votes

BJ Upton, CF, Tampa Bay

13 votes

Prince Fielder, 1B, Milwaukee

24 votes

Curtis Granderson, CF, Detroit

13 votes

Brandon Webb, SP, Arizona

18 votes

201 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 43 comments

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Comments

Vote Prince!

at 23 years old, he hit 50 HR and had an obp/slg of .395/.618. His top 5-comps through age 23 include Lou Gherig, Willie McCovery and Hank Greenberg. This guy is a beast with the bat.

The Dodgers won't win a playoff series until the Cool-a-Coo returns.

by mckeeno on Jan 30, 2008 2:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Howard is better though

by auclairkeithbc on Jan 30, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Negative ghost rider

The pattern is full

by marcello on Jan 30, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

-1

Howard is 4.5 years older with similar #s and 50% more strikeouts. Give me the younger guy with a higher contact rate.

The Dodgers won't win a playoff series until the Cool-a-Coo returns.

by mckeeno on Jan 30, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Beckett

It's ridiculous Beckett doesn't have 100% of the votes.

by gator on Jan 30, 2008 8:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

just imagine last year if the Red Sox did not have him

by dlpme77 on Jan 30, 2008 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Pass

He has a long history of being injured and only a little above average. One good year doesn't change that.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 31, 2008 8:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ballot Stuffing

Please comment if you voted for Vlad last poll..

by Maine Man on Jan 30, 2008 2:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ha

I know you aren't talking about ballot stuffing.

"The Dodgers won't win a playoff series until the Cool-a-Coo returns." -mckeeno

by PujolsJunkie on Jan 30, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

haven't been paying attention

is "best player" defined as who is the best that you would want for 2008, or "best player" meaning who is most valuable factoring in their age, contract, etc.

Because depending on the definition, you're going to get two completely different answers.

by Galt on Jan 30, 2008 3:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Galt

"Fantasy is not the focus of these polls. Overall play is the general thing to keep in mind when you value the player here. It's all about who you'd want to build a team around here in 2008 and for the next few years beyond it."

Defense counts.

Also, a good way to look at it as mentioned on the last poll, if these players were available in free agency right now, who would be most in demand?

"The Dodgers won't win a playoff series until the Cool-a-Coo returns." -mckeeno

by PujolsJunkie on Jan 30, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He wasn't asking if defense counts

He was asking:

(a) are we just looking at 2008 or beyond?
(b) are we looking at players in the abstract, or also looking at the realities of their contract situation (i.e. how long they're under control, how cheap they are, etc.)?

I've asked these questions before and haven't gotten a response either. If the answers to (a) and (b) are the former choices and not the latter, then voting in Vlad makes perfect sense. If they're the latter, it doesn't. Problem is that half the people seem to be voting one way and half seem to be voting another. It's not that they're not factoring in defense.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on Jan 30, 2008 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I did answer you

on the 4th poll, you just never saw it I guess.

Salary doesn't matter
2008 and beyond, so yes the future does count. It's one of those "if you were starting a franchise today" things. Now, for those that want to say Bossman is at this level, I can't say it makes much sense when a guy like Vlad is out there.

"The Dodgers won't win a playoff series until the Cool-a-Coo returns." -mckeeno

by PujolsJunkie on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:31:44 PM CDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ]

In other words
Think in a scope of the next five years or so.

"The Dodgers won't win a playoff series until the Cool-a-Coo returns." -mckeeno

by PujolsJunkie on Wed Jan 23, 2008 at 07:33:53 PM CDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ]

"The Dodgers won't win a playoff series until the Cool-a-Coo returns." -mckeeno

by PujolsJunkie on Jan 30, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

not to add work

If it's not merely about 2008, and is about the rest of their careers, then it would be helpful to have their ages.

by Galt on Jan 30, 2008 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

actually reduce work

I think having their ages would be helpful, while position and team probable don't add much value. I think everyone here knows what team/position everyone is, so you are just inconveniencing yourself by having to write all those characters

by Galt on Jan 30, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

this is about 2008.

period.

by auclairkeithbc on Jan 30, 2008 3:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

or...

at least it should be. anyone picking someone young who isn't as good as another current player, is screwing it up.

by auclairkeithbc on Jan 30, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

This isn't that hard to understand lol

"It's all about who you'd want to build a team around here in 2008 and for the next few years beyond it."

It's not just for 2008 and it has been stated in every poll.

"The Dodgers won't win a playoff series until the Cool-a-Coo returns." -mckeeno

by PujolsJunkie on Jan 30, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah but...

i am borderline retarded, and i don't like reading more than one sentence at a time.

by auclairkeithbc on Jan 30, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i feel ya man

me too

by wildthang on Jan 30, 2008 8:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I love C Grand

but I really dont think he's this good. I think he and Cano played a bit above their respected heads last year... 2 good players on amazing offensive teams... that's all.

by daveh33 on Jan 30, 2008 3:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Nice

That reminds me, Cano should be added to the options. He improved his patience last year while maintaining his power and played great D. He's been in the league 3 years now, improved each year (if you adjust for his fluky BA spike from last year), and is going into his age 25 season. Sounds like a cornerstone player to me.

by marcello on Jan 30, 2008 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

5 of the Top 10 players

are from the NL East...

by daveh33 on Jan 30, 2008 4:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

other

Sabathia

Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.

by doublestix on Jan 30, 2008 5:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Just a couple of things

Mauer is winning as of now. WTF?
David Ortiz, the league's second highest in OPS is not even on the list for voting.
Matt Holliday isn't on yet???
Tulowitzki? WHAT?
As a Mets fan, Reyes is not in the Top 10 in baseball. Maybe Top 15 or Top 20.

Here's my list:

Albert Pujols (Most consistantly amazing hitter in baseball)
Alex Rodriguez (Very good, has weird season patterns, average glove, getting old)
Johan Santana (Best pitcher in this decade)
Matt Holliday (Absolutely outstanding across the board)
Miguel Cabrera (Fat, slow, but a sensational and consistant hitter.)
David Wright (Young, great across the board but not quite Top 5)
David Ortiz (Getting old, very slow, no glove but a beautiful bat, Just as good as A-rod last year in OPS. Numbers tell all with Ortiz. POWERFUL)
Magglio Ordonez (Not quite Top 5, talented but oft-injured)
Ryan Howard (The next Barry Bonds without roids or any speed to mention)
Brandon Webb (Will be amazing every single year)
Jake Peavy (His pitches don't lie, but awkward delivery could be worrisome)
Hanley Ramirez (Great hitter, only getting better)
Josh Beckett (An ace ever since he came up. Will be amazing for years to come)
Jose Reyes (Unreal speed, can hit for average and get on base. Has power potential. Think Barry Larkin with a few mroe stolen bags)
Grady Sizemore (Has power, gets on base, steals bags)

Please comment

by METSMETSMETS on Jan 30, 2008 5:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Dude

You just said Ryan Howard is the next Barry Bonds. I don't even know where to start, but that is so amazingly wrong it hurts.

In regards to Ortiz you need to account for defense. Holliday, you need to account for park effects. Ordonez, you need to account for the career year driven by an unsustainable BA spike.

by marcello on Jan 30, 2008 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

But as much as Ordonez did have a spike it was just last year. Ortiz has horrible defense and so do plenty of players on this list. His spectacular bat and consistant 1.000 OPS should be taken into acccount. I did take account of the career year and average spike for Ordonez. His ability to hit is still spectacular. His career OPS is .892 despite two injured seasons. Not bad at all, and considering the .363 AVG just last year and his fielding skills he deserves to be in the Top 10. Lastly, Holliday is in Coors field, and that doesn't hurt him. It helps him. So long as he's there he's at the top of my list.

by METSMETSMETS on Jan 30, 2008 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ordonez

Doesnt matter that his career year was last year. That batting average was still really fluky. I don't know what his BABIP was, but I'm willing to bet it was higher than average.

Speaking of BABIP, does someone know where I can find it?

by demondeaconbaseball on Jan 30, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

.383

Just doing a quick google search for "ordonez BABIP" I found a few sites saying it was right around 383, so I am guessing that was it.

Granted, Ordonez did have a career year last season, but before his injury he was arguably one of the best players in baseball. He was putting up 30+ HRs and close to 20 SBs every season while hitting in the neighborhood of 310/380/550. His injury sapped his ability to steal bases. He had 56 SBs from 99-01, and hasn't reached double digits since.

Personally I don't think I would put him as high as he was just listed, but I could see a Top 15 ranking. I feel the same about Ortiz in this list. Injuries and age are going to slow him down I think over the next three seasons (which I am using to rank players here). I could see a Top 15 ranking, but not as high as he is here. Instead I would probably have Prince Fielder up there instead. Similar offense, and he actually plays defense. Overall though, I do agree with this list more than the Community one.

I do question though Reyes being so high on this list. Especially in comparison to Tulowitzki. I don't think Troy belongs this high either, but Trot offers more pop and is already one of the best (if not the best) defensive shortstops in the National League. Not sure if Reyes' stolen bases make up the gap in power and defense that Tulo gives you.

"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile

by Boxkutter on Jan 30, 2008 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

fangraphs, baseball reference

all have it. i'm sure most stat sites include it now.

by larry on Jan 30, 2008 6:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Howard

was an exaggeration. But he has 40-50 HR power with the capability to hit for average and get on base.

by METSMETSMETS on Jan 30, 2008 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

hitting for high average

is a statistical anomaly when you strike out 200 times a year.

by Galt on Jan 30, 2008 6:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Except

when he strikes out 181 times in 2006 and then hits .313.

I mean if he made 600 ABs and struck out at the same rate he'd hit .300 still and probably get 200 K. It certainly is possible in the Phillies ballpark

by METSMETSMETS on Jan 30, 2008 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

one year

is the definition of statistical anomaly.

by Galt on Jan 31, 2008 9:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No

Guess the number of times a player has struck out 180+ times and hit .300? Twice

Bobby Bonds and Ryan Howard have each done it once. Even lowering the requirements to 150 strikeouts returns only 15 seasons since 1901. It just doesn't happen without extreme luck.

by marcello on Jan 31, 2008 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Players for a franchise...

really? people would rather have guys like BJ Upton and Curtis Granderson on their franchise rather than guys like Roy Halladay and Felix Hernandez?

Jesus.

by Andrew Friedman on Jan 30, 2008 8:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

injury concerns?

one has quite the past and the other's arm is supposed to blow up eventually. if that's your view, they're not exactly someone to put as your cornerstone.

by larry on Jan 30, 2008 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Halladay's injuries...

have been pretty freak occurrences. The two that come to mind right away are the broken bone in his leg from a batted ball and wasn't the other like getting his appendix removed? Not exactly pitching related injuries... of course, that's how Mark Prior's started too, so who knows?

"My mom always taught me it's better to laugh at yourself than to laugh at others. She was so wrong. ;)" -Pedrophile

by Boxkutter on Jan 30, 2008 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

shoulder problems in 2004

plus, i see some ominous signs in his peripherals. i think he'll be good going forward but i don't think he's the elite dominant pitcher some of the other guys on the list will continue to be.

by larry on Jan 30, 2008 10:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Vlad...

Having Vlad above any guy on this current poll is a crime. The guy's not as good as any of Fielder/Howard/Ortiz at this point when he doesn't really bring anything to the table defensively.

I voted Mauer, for about the 6th time in a row. If you factor in defense/position, it HAS to be Mauer.

by DJSkillz on Jan 30, 2008 9:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

BJ Upton?

This is the only one I'm surprised to see on this list. I mean, yeah he may get there - so might Delmon Young, Phil Hughes or Tim Lincecum - but they're not there yet. I'd take Ryan Braun over BJ at this point, esp. since their defense is equally bad.

by journeymen on Jan 30, 2008 10:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

"their defense is equally bad."

Is any body's defense as bad as Braun's? Upton's defense isn't really that bad. He's a pretty good defensive center fielder. Add in the fact he hasn't played 80 games there, I'm sure there's room for improvement. I'm not sure it can be said about Braun.

Talkin' Sports

by BlackOps on Jan 30, 2008 11:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs