OT; He did it
I know this is a minor league place, but just for a place to discuss Barry Bonds has (at least) tied Aaron. Personally I'm not a fan of his, but IMO he was a HOFer before the big home run seaons and he was 400-400 with all the gold gloves. Secondly, I'm glad it is over so we can stop watching all these giants games, if they were competitive it'd be easier to deal with.
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65 comments
Comments
HGH
Not that I really care. I'm still of the mind that half the guys are taking illegal supplements, and the other half are taking legal ones. People won't forget Hank Aaron, just like people won't forget Babe Ruth or Roger Maris. All the hooplah seems pretty damn blown out of proportion to me.
by Brickhaus on Aug 5, 2007 6:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
horrible
by was385 on Aug 4, 2007 11:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Waiting on A-Rod....
by Boxkutter on Aug 4, 2007 11:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think A-Rod and Pujols will surpass him
by Bravesin07 on Aug 4, 2007 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
barry's a roider
this is kind of an awkward event for MLB, but i don't think the blame for that goes entirely to barry. ultimately it was his decision to use PEDs, but the higher-ups in baseball were responsible for creating the environment that drove so many (including bonds) to cheat: no testing, the glorification of home runs, and a tacit understanding that they'd look the other way if anybody was up to anything illicit. so, shame on them. shame on everybody.
any time you create a massive incentive for people to cheat, with minimal disincentive, some people are going to cheat. that's human nature, and all grownups should know that. yeah, it's disappointing that people choose to act this way, but it's not like we should all be shocked that they do.
by jpahk on Aug 4, 2007 11:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's sad
by Pawtucket Pat on Aug 5, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Congrats to Barry
He's great. He used amphetamines, he probably used steroids... I really don't care. As for the record, like all records, it's fundamentally just accounting trivia. I refused to get worked up about it, in a good way or a bad way.
Granted this is more important than, say, HBP in a season by a switch hitter or something, but really it changes nothing. He was awesome, he played a long time, and when all was said and done he happened to have more HR than anyone else. Someday someone will hit more; it will not make Barry any less of a player, just like this doesn't take anything away from Aaron. It's just another incredible player's turn to be the answer to a trivia question for awhile.
by delomir on Aug 4, 2007 11:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And Rob Neyer
That sounded exactly like what he would say. Slightly aloof and somwhat equivocal.
by wildthang on Aug 4, 2007 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And also...
by RVachon on Aug 4, 2007 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen!
Performance enhancing allows a person to do better than they would have without the drugs. Well guess what - Mickey Mantle would not have made it to the baseball field without a pile of aspirin and greenies to help him recover from the 8 hour bender he was on the night before and it is well documented. So it didn't make him stronger but it gave him energy he would have not otherwise had to play the game.
There are countless other players that fall into this same class of drug users.
Difference is today we have ESPN, CBS Sportsline, Fox News and these are airing on regular radio, television, satelite radio, Direct TV, etc, etc. We sensationalize the topic because that is what gets ratings in an era of people who thrive on the next reality show that is going to show someone eating a cow ball or snake eye.
Baseball is as great today as it was when I was 10 years old traveling to Cleveland to see the Brewers play. I make my way to Chicago every year to see the Cubs play. Back then, I would have a dog and a pop and wear my glove in hopes of catching a ball. Today, I have a few beers and a dog and hope a ball isn't hit to me because I don't have a glove.
We get caught up in what the media wants us to get caught up in instead of getting caught up in what made us love baseball in the first place. Turn off the TV and go to a ball game. I am going to see the Pirates play next Monday night (I think they are at home) when I travel down there for business.
by slickwdb on Aug 5, 2007 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bonds
by z4 landshark on Aug 4, 2007 11:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Blame
So he went out and spent a summer working out and juicing and the rest is history.
by GregJP on Aug 4, 2007 11:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Excuses excuses
by CrimsonLiederhosen on Aug 5, 2007 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know what i like about you crimson?
by jpahk on Aug 5, 2007 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
In all seriousness, there's nothing left to be said about Bonds. You've got people who will continue to make excuses for him (like people did for Rose, another pondscum-sucking piece of crap) and people who won't. Suggesting or implying that Barry somehow had his hand forced is asinine beyond words. He made choices, just like we all do every day in life, to be honest or dishonest and he clearly is a fan of the dishonest path (Taxes, wife, steroids, grand jury testimonies, etc).
by CrimsonLiederhosen on Aug 7, 2007 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I can see the connection
by mroak89 on Aug 5, 2007 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally...
by RVachon on Aug 4, 2007 11:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
congrats
While I wish there wasn't the steroid cloud around this, and acknowledge we may be celebrating a 'tainted' record, I am glad he has tied Aaron.
I have been paying special attention to Bonds AB lately, and will continue to do so until he is the sole leader.
Most(including me) believe he has been less than honest during his playing career. However, he still is a great ballplayer and we can acknowledge and celebrate it. If Bonds someday is proven beyond a doubt to have taken steroids or other performance enhancing drugs, then we can place the asterisk or whatever. Remember, MLB did nothing to stop steroids until a few years ago. I believe MLB execs did know something, but it was secret and good for the game... Lets not repeat the Salem Witch Trials here and convict someone based on perceived actions. In the end, the truth will prevail.
Again, Congratulations to Mr Barry Bonds on #755.
by dbimberg on Aug 4, 2007 11:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
no conviction necessary, i think
by jpahk on Aug 5, 2007 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barry Bonds
As such, I'm certainly not going to waste the few years I have left watching him hit baseballs because of off the field issues.
by RDoumit41 on Aug 5, 2007 12:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Correction:
Also, Bonds has seen 10 pitches since he hit 755. He's swung at 1. For all the selfish-ness he is percieved to have off the field, he is probobly the most unselfish player in baseball on it.
by RDoumit41 on Aug 5, 2007 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's the greatest hitter probably....
Griffey in the later 90s, and Ichiro's first few seasons are pretty amazing as well...and they are both GGers with game-changing arms.
by daveh33 on Aug 5, 2007 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
1990-NL--OF
1991-NL--OF
1992-NL--OF
1993-NL--OF
1994-NL--OF
1996-NL--OF
1997-NL--OF
1998-NL--OF
And while I don't think Griffey's overall career sniffs Bonds, atleast somebody could make some kind of arguement, I guess.
I'm being kind when I say the same can't be said for Ichiro.
by RDoumit41 on Aug 5, 2007 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well i was responding to what you said
by daveh33 on Aug 5, 2007 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you serious?
Likewise, in 2001, Bonds had an OBP of .515 and OPSed 1.379.
But because, by your account, Ichiro played better defense (true) and stole more bases (true), the two seasons are comparable?
With all due respect, that's one of the most asinine and biased remarks I've ever heard in my life.
by RDoumit41 on Aug 5, 2007 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so OPS is it then?
I said to take a realistic approach...the M's made it to the ALCS that year...no way they wouldve been anywhere near that good without Ichiro igniting that lineup. which is what a lead-off hitter is supposed to do, and I dont know that we will ever see anyone do it as well as Ichiro did in 2001...
by daveh33 on Aug 5, 2007 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like using it
by wildthang on Aug 5, 2007 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless
by CrimsonLiederhosen on Aug 5, 2007 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except for all the leadoff hitters who posted
by Grrranderson on Aug 5, 2007 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
by CrimsonLiederhosen on Aug 5, 2007 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't even disagree about GG...
by RDoumit41 on Aug 5, 2007 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
right
by mroak89 on Aug 5, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good for Bonds
Until I know the extent of steroid use in baseball this is a legit record. It seems that the playing field is very very dirty. If you think about the Sanchezs, Motas, Grimsley, and Palmerios of the world doing steriods then well anyone could be useing it. I'm not going to get into Neo-McCarthism and point fingers and make inncorrect statements.
But just because Bonds was the best player who could have been enhanced by steroids doesn't mean he is the only one. Who knows? Not any of us. He could have hit 60 of his 73 HRs of Juiced Pitchers. Would that make it a legit record? Think about the playing field of some these players. Ruth only played against white players, and Bonds only played with alleged steroids users. Is it comparable? No one can determine that. But give the guy his due. He did it. Period. Innocent until proven guilty. Welcome to America.
by Metty5 on Aug 5, 2007 9:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
err...
by mraver on Aug 5, 2007 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm well aware of the term thank you..
by Metty5 on Aug 5, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
proof
anyway, after i saw that analysis, i had no more doubts about bonds being clean. i had my suspicions about books written by journalists, since they seem to be largely out to get him; i felt highly uneasy about confidential grand jury testimony, since, well, it was confidential and should never have been leaked in the first place. the change in bonds's personal appearance was striking, but i didn't want to read to much into that, because how the hell do i know what happens to people if they change their workout regimen. but when you look at the numbers, the conclusion is totally inescapable: bonds was not only using, he was using regularly in 3-week-on, 1-week-off cycles. it's totally far-fetched that the numbers would shake out that way by accident, and even more far-fetched that he would be unaware of his own PED use like that.
by jpahk on Aug 5, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good for Barry
I wonder how much of the hatred and resentment directed towards Bonds is a product of fans feeling duped while they watched McGwire and Sammy Sosa chase "the most hallowed record in MLB" (as it was called at the time, although this year it seems so be the one held by Aaron and Bonds). Maybe it's just because I've been listening to Who's Next a lot lately, but is the baseball world collectively saying to itself, "We won't get fooled again", and thus rejecting Barry now so as to make up for their acceptance and support for Mac and Sammy?
Let's face it, that chase was what "healed" baseball after the strike, no? That what I remember everyone saying at the time. Well, I guess the current controversy is just MLB reaping the whirlwind they sowed as they celebrated and pumped up the events of 1998.
So when Bonds goes out there and gets booed, he's getting booed for not only taking steroids himself but being the first one we knew about. He's getting booed because we feel tricked somehow by Mac and Sosa, and this is the easy way to express that. "We don't get fooled again, Barry," we say. "So your "record" gets an asterisk, you giant Roiding freak!"
Barry's getting booed for the sins of his generation, and on top of that, he's getting booed because we once cheered those like him. We celebrated those who did not deserve it and now must exact revenge on someone to make up for it. Well, Mac is gone and Sammy has a big smile, so it's all on Barry now.
It's hardly fair if you ask me, but I guess it's kinda human. When you feel duped and taken advantage off, it's natural to lash out. But common, people! For just a week or so, can we acknowledge that Bonds was the best hitter of a generation, even if it was a generation of "cheaters"? We take context into account all the time when talking about how good a player was all-time. Well do it for Bonds and McGwire and Sosa, too.
So do what you want with the next week, I guess. Be angry and bitter about what Barry is doing. Gnash your teeth, gesture animatedly with your beer (but make sure you don't spill any, for chrissake!). I for one and going to just watch it for what it is: history before our eyes, the best player of a generation accomplishing something amazing.
by mraver on Aug 5, 2007 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't feel duped
by slurve on Aug 5, 2007 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
duped?
by jpahk on Aug 5, 2007 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question
by pedrophile on Aug 5, 2007 11:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cmon man
by slurve on Aug 5, 2007 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HGH doesn't help you play baseball
according to this.
by Metty5 on Aug 5, 2007 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be more precise
This would make it easier for pitchers to go 100% effort on everything, hitters wear down more slowly over the course of a season, etc.
FWIW, that's basically what greenies do, AFAIK, and they've been in the game for YEARS.
by mraver on Aug 5, 2007 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PED
Bill Clinton tried to say it wasn't really cheating because it wasn't sex. Can you kind of kill someone? Kind of steal something?
Everyone spends so much time trying to make excuses for the players of earlier years because the cheating wasn't as serious? What a joke.
by slickwdb on Aug 5, 2007 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's not
I'm not defending the guys from the past, but what they did isn't on the same level. Period.
"Can you kind of kill someone"
Obviously not as there is no in between. At the same time, you can be charged at different levels - first degree/pre-meditated, 2nd degree, involuntary manslaughter, etc. Same with stealing. You can be charged with a misdemeanor or you can be charged with grand larceny. Your examples only helped to prove the point.
by slurve on Aug 6, 2007 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hahaha
My GUESS is that you would not want an asterisk beside Aaron but you would want one beside Bonds. I agree one helps more than the other. But they are BOTH PED's. I have no clue how much they actually help, but do know they do help.
NEITHER broke a rule.
Heck, what would happen if they made a legal substance like Creatine illegal? Would/Should we asterisk those guys?
Food for thought.
by pedrophile on Aug 5, 2007 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about this
It just amazes me at the disconnect here. Yeah, the old timers cheated, but it wasn't as bad. Hard to go back and slap something on them - it's the past. This stuff is current. The old-timers openly admit it. When you drop a "roid bomb" at a Bonds press conference, he acts like you told him his mother is good in the sack. Same with the vast majority of these guys. Bring it up and they withdraw like a pecker in an ice tub. All except for Giambi and Canseco of course. People in baseball tried to undermine his credibility and pass it off as whoring to sell books. They also did there best to shut Giambi up.
by slurve on Aug 6, 2007 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the problem I have
They also made amphetamines illegal. I don't hear about them going after anyone that took amphetamines BEFORE it was illegal.
We all realize that steroids help more than amphetamines. And we all realize these rules should have been in place years ago.
But do we really want to punish someone for breaking a rule before it became a rule? And selectively doing it for the one rule and not for the other?
by pedrophile on Aug 6, 2007 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
further
If we focus on Bonds then we are not focused on Selig + Baseball ownership + baseball union + the constituents. Because these are the people that saw there was a problem and refused to do anything.
That is where our focus should be.
Guys like Shilling are a joke to me. He was high and mighty many times about steroids. He was a union rep I think also. But did he once speak out about steroids before? Do anything for testing before this mess? Yeah, he's really earned the right to open his big mouth, lol.
by pedrophile on Aug 6, 2007 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now you have me
Like I said, I'm not a big proponent of the * but we as fans are free to piss on his parade as we see fit.
by slurve on Aug 6, 2007 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for sure
What gets my goat is how baseball is using him for their own screwup. Also, baseball is horrible at protecting their players as well as being horrible at promoting their players.
I think Barry is a jerk and his morals are seriously lacking. And I hope someone else breaks the record. But just can't justify an asterisk or anything but first ballot HOF for Barry.
by pedrophile on Aug 6, 2007 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
totally agree with all that
I wouldn't be surprised if the Ken Caminiti foundation (or someone else) sues baseball over it's role. If baseball is complicit in steroid usage then it set's up an environment where people may feel cheating is a necessity to compete. It's not that I agree with this. But I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen.
by pedrophile on Aug 6, 2007 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fundamental Flaw in argument
- Ballpark dimensions now versus in the past
- Number of teams in the league now versus then
- Laws of physics now versus then
Pitchers are throwing hard and the faster it comes in impacts how far it goes out. More teams dillutes talent level talented hitters get to hit against 4th and 5th starters that wouldn't be in the league if there were 24 teams. Ballpark dimensions have in general been made smaller and more hitter friendly because scoring runs is what casusal fans want.
To say that steroids = more 50 hr seasons is a bad math formula.
by slickwdb on Aug 7, 2007 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nah
oh, others that stand out:
Brady Anderson
Todd Helton
Luis Gonzalez
by pedrophile on Aug 7, 2007 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Appropriate Pitcher
by mckeeno on Aug 5, 2007 2:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Black/White
A black columnist from the New York Times (I believe) said that Bonds breaking the record was "great" and that he was innocent until proven guilty.
Mitch Albom and another white reporter were basically "disgusted" by him breaking the record, and seemed genuinely shocked by what the other guy was saying.
It kind of reminded me a bit of the reactions to the OJ verdict.
Now I just dislike Barry as a human being, and he could be blue or green instead of black as far as I'm concerned, but it seems like race does play some rule in terms of cheering for Barry or not.
Or maybe this mornings reactions were just a coincidence.
by GregJP on Aug 5, 2007 8:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No, there's something to that...
by slurve on Aug 6, 2007 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what does it matter when Aaron is black too?
by daveh33 on Aug 6, 2007 4:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I totally agree with this. All the people trying to play the race card seem to neglect this, and it pisses me off.
by dbimberg on Aug 6, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm
by jpahk on Aug 6, 2007 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe african-americans are more likely to
by daveh33 on Aug 7, 2007 5:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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