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OT; He did it

I know this is a minor league place, but just for a place to discuss Barry Bonds has (at least) tied Aaron. Personally I'm not a fan of his, but IMO he was a HOFer before the big home run seaons and he was 400-400 with all the gold gloves. Secondly, I'm glad it is over so we can stop watching all these giants games, if they were competitive it'd be easier to deal with.

Poll
Your Thoughts on Barry
Good for him
73 votes
I Don't Even Care
21 votes
Where is the Asterisk
22 votes
Glad to Get It Over With
24 votes
Just Waiting for A-Rod
31 votes

171 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 65 comments

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eh
Shit Happens.
1941 .406

by FrozenTed9 on Aug 4, 2007 11:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bonds
Fuck his head is big.

by GregJP on Aug 4, 2007 11:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

HGH
makes the forehead plates expand.

Not that I really care.  I'm still of the mind that half the guys are taking illegal supplements, and the other half are taking legal ones.  People won't forget Hank Aaron, just like people won't forget Babe Ruth or Roger Maris.  All the hooplah seems pretty damn blown out of proportion to me.

Vice-Chairman of the Sonnanstine Underground Railroad

by Brickhaus on Aug 5, 2007 6:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

horrible
sad day for baseball.
Check out MVN.com/mlb-braves for the best Braves coverage

by was385 on Aug 4, 2007 11:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Waiting on A-Rod....
and thinking what could have been in Griffey had stayed healthy those 4 years or so.
"Tim Lincecum will win 1 Cy Young and 11 Tim Lincecums." -uga007

by Boxkutter on Aug 4, 2007 11:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think A-Rod and Pujols will surpass him
I see A-Rod over 800 and Pujols at 775.

by Bravesin07 on Aug 4, 2007 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

barry's a roider
but obviously a good one. the best, in fact. so congratulations to him.

this is kind of an awkward event for MLB, but i don't think the blame for that goes entirely to barry. ultimately it was his decision to use PEDs, but the higher-ups in baseball were responsible for creating the environment that drove so many (including bonds) to cheat: no testing, the glorification of home runs, and a tacit understanding that they'd look the other way if anybody was up to anything illicit. so, shame on them. shame on everybody.

any time you create a massive incentive for people to cheat, with minimal disincentive, some people are going to cheat. that's human nature, and all grownups should know that. yeah, it's disappointing that people choose to act this way, but it's not like we should all be shocked that they do.

by jpahk on Aug 4, 2007 11:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's sad
It's sad that it's come to this point, but your sentiments are absolutely right. He's a cheater, but damn it if he isn't the best cheater in the game. That's something, when you consider how many people he had to beat out for that title.

by Pawtucket Pat on Aug 5, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Congrats to Barry
Good for him!  He's the best player I'll ever see, and this generation has some true all-time greats (ARod, Pujols...), and this is just the exclamation point on a legendary career.

He's great.  He used amphetamines, he probably used steroids...  I really don't care.  As for the record, like all records, it's fundamentally just accounting trivia.  I refused to get worked up about it, in a good way or a bad way.  

Granted this is more important than, say, HBP in a season by a switch hitter or something, but really it changes nothing.  He was awesome, he played a long time, and when all was said and done he happened to have more HR than anyone else.  Someday someone will hit more; it will not make Barry any less of a player, just like this doesn't take anything away from Aaron.  It's just another incredible player's turn to be the answer to a trivia question for awhile.

"I feel like I've been around long enough at shortstop to be the leader of Jose Castillo." -- Jack Wilson

by delomir on Aug 4, 2007 11:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And Rob Neyer
checks in.

That sounded exactly like what he would say. Slightly aloof and somwhat equivocal.

by wildthang on Aug 4, 2007 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And also...
Completely spot on.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genious, but they don't know how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world." - Calvin

by RVachon on Aug 4, 2007 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amen!
I have said this before in other discussions on Barry.  Many of our baseball hero's used performance enhancing drugs in the true definition of the word.  

Performance enhancing allows a person to do better than they would have without the drugs.  Well guess what - Mickey Mantle would not have made it to the baseball field without a pile of aspirin and greenies to help him recover from the 8 hour bender he was on the night before and it is well documented.  So it didn't make him stronger but it gave him energy he would have not otherwise had to play the game.

There are countless other players that fall into this same class of drug users.

Difference is today we have ESPN, CBS Sportsline, Fox News and these are airing on regular radio, television, satelite radio, Direct TV, etc, etc.  We sensationalize the topic because that is what gets ratings in an era of people who thrive on the next reality show that is going to show someone eating a cow ball or snake eye.  

Baseball is as great today as it was when I was 10 years old traveling to Cleveland to see the Brewers play.  I make my way to Chicago every year to see the Cubs play.  Back then, I would have a dog and a pop and wear my glove in hopes of catching a ball.  Today, I have a few beers and a dog and hope a ball isn't hit to me because I don't have a glove.

We get caught up in what the media wants us to get caught up in instead of getting caught up in what made us love baseball in the first place.  Turn off the TV and go to a ball game.  I am going to see the Pirates play next Monday night (I think they are at home) when I travel down there for business.  

by slickwdb on Aug 5, 2007 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

bonds
We are all witnesses.
Giants '08

by z4 landshark on Aug 4, 2007 11:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Blame
Blame it on Sosa and McGwire.  Barry watched them obliterate the single season HR record, and basically said.....if you guys want to play hard ball....I can play hard ball.

So he went out and spent a summer working out and juicing and the rest is history.

by GregJP on Aug 4, 2007 11:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Excuses excuses
No one, absolutely NO ONE, is responsible for for Bonds' actions except Bonds himself. Anyone who says otherwise is a weakwilled fool seeking to justify their own questions regarding their own decisions by making excuses for Barry's. i.e. if the excuse works for Barry, it works for me. Grow a spine you pussies.
God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Aug 5, 2007 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you know what i like about you crimson?
even when you disagree with somebody, you always express yourself politely and tactfully, with a healthy understanding of the other person's point of view. that's a rare and valuable trait.

by jpahk on Aug 5, 2007 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
I aim to please :)
In all seriousness, there's nothing left to be said about Bonds. You've got people who will continue to make excuses for him (like people did for Rose, another pondscum-sucking piece of crap) and people who won't. Suggesting or implying that Barry somehow had his hand forced is asinine beyond words. He made choices, just like we all do every day in life, to be honest or dishonest and he clearly is a fan of the dishonest path (Taxes, wife, steroids, grand jury testimonies, etc).
God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Aug 7, 2007 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes I can see the connection
Person trying to explain why Barry roided outside of his own HR goals = weak willed pussy

by mroak89 on Aug 5, 2007 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Personally...
I'm glad he's about to break the record.  I hope it will happen on the road (where he will be appropriately booed - cause I can't stand the jerk), but I'm just glad it's almost over.  I'm so sick of hearing about all of it.  And as an added bonus, now it'll be even EASIER to get good seats at Giants games.  Since, you know, there's really no further reason to go watch a crappy team of octogenarians.  Unless Lincecum is pitching, of course.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genious, but they don't know how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world." - Calvin

by RVachon on Aug 4, 2007 11:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

congrats

While I wish there wasn't the steroid cloud around this, and acknowledge we may be celebrating a 'tainted' record, I am glad he has tied Aaron.  

I have been paying special attention to Bonds AB lately, and will continue to do so until he is the sole leader.

Most(including me) believe he has been less than honest during his playing career.  However, he still is a great ballplayer and we can acknowledge and celebrate it.  If Bonds someday is proven beyond a doubt to have taken steroids or other performance enhancing drugs, then we can place the asterisk or whatever.  Remember, MLB did nothing to stop steroids until a few years ago.  I believe MLB execs did know something, but it was secret and good for the game... Lets not repeat the Salem Witch Trials here and convict someone based on perceived actions.  In the end, the truth will prevail.

Again, Congratulations to Mr Barry Bonds on #755.

by dbimberg on Aug 4, 2007 11:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

no conviction necessary, i think
reasonable people pretty much agree that he used PEDs; but MLB is not in the criminal justice business. their priority should just be to clean up the game and move on, not hunt down all past wrongdoers.

by jpahk on Aug 5, 2007 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Barry Bonds
Is the greatest player most of us have or will ever see.

As such, I'm certainly not going to waste the few years I have left watching him hit baseballs because of off the field issues.

A Steve Trachsel pitched game moves faster than Pirate management moves their prospects.

by RDoumit41 on Aug 5, 2007 12:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Correction:
Waste the last few years hating him*

Also, Bonds has seen 10 pitches since he hit 755.  He's swung at 1.  For all the selfish-ness he is percieved to have off the field, he is probobly the most unselfish player in baseball on it.

A Steve Trachsel pitched game moves faster than Pirate management moves their prospects.

by RDoumit41 on Aug 5, 2007 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he's the greatest hitter probably....
...has he ever been an above-average defender?

Griffey in the later 90s, and Ichiro's first few seasons are pretty amazing as well...and they are both GGers with game-changing arms.

by daveh33 on Aug 5, 2007 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL
Gold Gloves
1990-NL--OF
1991-NL--OF
1992-NL--OF
1993-NL--OF
1994-NL--OF
1996-NL--OF
1997-NL--OF
1998-NL--OF

And while I don't think Griffey's overall career sniffs Bonds, atleast somebody could make some kind of arguement, I guess.  

I'm being kind when I say the same can't be said for Ichiro.

A Steve Trachsel pitched game moves faster than Pirate management moves their prospects.

by RDoumit41 on Aug 5, 2007 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well i was responding to what you said
about him being the greatest we've ever seen...and i guess the point i was trying to make was that, by the time barry was the most dominant hitter,  his defense was no longer a plus...he was certainly an excellent-MVP-type player in the 90s, but he only eclipsed 40 HRs 3 seasons in the 90s...he only became an otherworldly force after his juicing and subsequent decline in the defensive spectrum...so I think Ichiro's 2001 season should be considered just as good or better than Barry's peak, if you consider it  from a realistic point-of-view...meaning Ichiro is a lead-off hitter, and taking his defense into account...in 2001, he won ROY, MVP, Silver Slugger, was an All-Star starter and a Gold glover, who won the batting crown, and led the league in SBs and hits...thats amazing.

by daveh33 on Aug 5, 2007 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you serious?
Well, in 2001, Ichiro had an OBP of.381 and OPSed .838, playing all 152 of his games in RF.

Likewise, in 2001, Bonds had an OBP of .515 and OPSed 1.379.

But because, by your account, Ichiro played better defense (true) and stole more bases (true), the two seasons are comparable?  

With all due respect, that's one of the most asinine and biased remarks I've ever heard in my life.  

A Steve Trachsel pitched game moves faster than Pirate management moves their prospects.

by RDoumit41 on Aug 5, 2007 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so OPS is it then?
this is how we are to measure the full impact of a player huh? I am not talking about fantasy baseball here.

 I said to take a realistic approach...the M's made it to the ALCS that year...no way they wouldve been anywhere near that good without Ichiro igniting that lineup. which is what a lead-off hitter is supposed to do, and I dont know that we will ever see anyone do it as well as Ichiro did in 2001...

by daveh33 on Aug 5, 2007 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't like using it
but didn't Barry Lamar Bonds post the highest single season VORP of all time in 2001?

by wildthang on Aug 5, 2007 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unless
You consider the greatest leadoff hitter of all-time, Rickey Henderson.
God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Aug 5, 2007 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except for all the leadoff hitters who posted
OBPs well over .400, and got on base many more times for the heart of the order, which is what a leadoff hitter is supposed to do.
Free Jason Botts

by Grrranderson on Aug 5, 2007 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah
That's funny, quoting Gold Gloves won. Cuz, you know, they don't hand out meaningless gold gloves like to, say, DH's who play 10 defensive games all season...  Gold Gloves are without question the most meaningless athletic award out there.
God rested one day out of 7, Felix rests 4 out of 5.

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Aug 5, 2007 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't even disagree about GG...
But whatever defensive statistic you choose to use will tell you that Bonds was an incredibly gifted LF.
A Steve Trachsel pitched game moves faster than Pirate management moves their prospects.

by RDoumit41 on Aug 5, 2007 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

right
that's the point, and that point is correct. Why pick out one portion of his argument and miss the actual point? It doesn't make the fact that Bonds had STELLAR defense any less true, to say that one measurement of defense is somewhat meaningless

by mroak89 on Aug 5, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good for Bonds
Innocent until Proven Guilty. This still America last time I checked.

Until I know the extent of steroid use in baseball this is a legit record. It seems that the playing field is very very dirty. If you think about the Sanchezs, Motas, Grimsley, and Palmerios of the world doing steriods then well anyone could be useing it. I'm not going to get into Neo-McCarthism and point fingers and make inncorrect statements.

But just because Bonds was the best player who could have been enhanced by steroids doesn't mean he is the only one. Who knows? Not any of us. He could have hit 60 of his 73 HRs of Juiced Pitchers. Would that make it a legit record? Think about the playing field of some these players. Ruth only played against white players, and Bonds only played with alleged steroids users. Is it comparable? No one can determine that. But give the guy his due. He did it. Period. Innocent until proven guilty. Welcome to America.

E-Mail me at JS127266@Albany.edu to get into the JSMiLB Fantasy League!

by Metty5 on Aug 5, 2007 9:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

err...
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a legal concept, not a moral one. I really don't think anyone is outraged that Barry might have broken the law here. It's' more that they think he cheated, which is a moral thing.

by mraver on Aug 5, 2007 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm well aware of the term thank you..
But there isn't sufficient proof that he did take steroids knowingly. If there were he'd be in jail. We can talk as much as we want about it but he hasn't been convicted of anything.
E-Mail me at JS127266@Albany.edu to get into the JSMiLB Fantasy League!

by Metty5 on Aug 5, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

proof
if you're interested in proof, the most compelling evidence (in my opinion) is the study in the cheater's guide to baseball about the three-week cycles in which he took PEDs. this evidences is admittedly indirect, but it's totally eye-popping. it's probably not enough to get somebody convicted in a court of law, but it's pretty much the same thing as the first chapter of freakonomics where teachers were fired because the statistical evidence showed beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that they were helping their students cheat on standardized tests.

anyway, after i saw that analysis, i had no more doubts about bonds being clean. i had my suspicions about books written by journalists, since they seem to be largely out to get him; i felt highly uneasy about confidential grand jury testimony, since, well, it was confidential and should never have been leaked in the first place. the change in bonds's personal appearance was striking, but i didn't want to read to much into that, because how the hell do i know what happens to people if they change their workout regimen. but when you look at the numbers, the conclusion is totally inescapable: bonds was not only using, he was using regularly in 3-week-on, 1-week-off cycles. it's totally far-fetched that the numbers would shake out that way by accident, and even more far-fetched that he would be unaware of his own PED use like that.

by jpahk on Aug 5, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good for Barry
At times like this, it's good to go back ~10 years or so and think of other, similar events when enormous stars set about destroying other home run records.

I wonder how much of the hatred and resentment directed towards Bonds is a product of fans feeling duped while they watched McGwire and Sammy Sosa chase "the most hallowed record in MLB" (as it was called at the time, although this year it seems so be the one held by Aaron and Bonds). Maybe it's just because I've been listening to Who's Next a lot lately, but is the baseball world collectively saying to itself, "We won't get fooled again", and thus rejecting Barry now so as to make up for their acceptance and support for Mac and Sammy?

Let's face it, that chase was what "healed" baseball after the strike, no? That what I remember everyone saying at the time. Well, I guess the current controversy is just MLB reaping the whirlwind they sowed as they celebrated and pumped up the events of 1998.

So when Bonds goes out there and gets booed, he's getting booed for not only taking steroids himself but being the first one we knew about. He's getting booed because we feel tricked somehow by Mac and Sosa, and this is the easy way to express that. "We don't get fooled again, Barry," we say. "So your "record" gets an asterisk, you giant Roiding freak!"

Barry's getting booed for the sins of his generation, and on top of that, he's getting booed because we once cheered those like him. We celebrated those who did not deserve it and now must exact revenge on someone to make up for it. Well, Mac is gone and Sammy has a big smile, so it's all on Barry now.

It's hardly fair if you ask me, but I guess it's kinda human. When you feel duped and taken advantage off, it's natural to lash out. But common, people! For just a week or so, can we acknowledge that Bonds was the best hitter of a generation, even if it was a generation of "cheaters"? We take context into account all the time when talking about how good a player was all-time. Well do it for Bonds and McGwire and Sosa, too.

So do what you want with the next week, I guess. Be angry and bitter about what Barry is doing. Gnash your teeth, gesture animatedly with your beer (but make sure you don't spill any, for chrissake!). I for one and going to just watch it for what it is:  history before our eyes, the best player of a generation accomplishing something amazing.

by mraver on Aug 5, 2007 10:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't feel duped
I feel for the guys that did it w/o synthetic aid.

by slurve on Aug 5, 2007 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

duped?
nah, i think a lot of people are anti-bonds because bonds has always been so surly to fans and to the media. the mainstream sports media, in turn, has had no compunctions about portraying him as an egotistical, self-serving jerk. there were pretty serious undertones of this even back in 2001 when he hit 73, before the steroid thing came to the forefront of the discussion. of course the PED issue just amplifies all this.

by jpahk on Aug 5, 2007 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Question
If we found out Aaron took amphetamines would you want an asterisk besides his records?

by pedrophile on Aug 5, 2007 11:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Cmon man
Amphetimines aren't on the same level as HGH/roids.  Not even close.  Silly arguement.

by slurve on Aug 5, 2007 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be more precise
What Bradbury (whose book is worth the read, IMO) is saying is that there is no current evidence to say that HGH improves performance, although it may very well help players recover more quickly from fatigue and minor injuries.

This would make it easier for pitchers to go 100% effort on everything, hitters wear down more slowly over the course of a season, etc.

FWIW, that's basically what greenies do, AFAIK, and they've been in the game for YEARS.

by mraver on Aug 5, 2007 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

PED
A PED is a PED.  If someone uses something that allows them to do something at a level higher than they would have otherwise - it is still cheating.

Bill Clinton tried to say it wasn't really cheating because it wasn't sex.  Can you kind of kill someone?  Kind of steal something?  

Everyone spends so much time trying to make excuses for the players of earlier years because the cheating wasn't as serious?  What a joke.

by slickwdb on Aug 5, 2007 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, it's not
Just like there's speed and then there's cocaine.  Just like there's tylenol and then there's morphine.  Different degrees - we deal with the concept everyday.  Punishment should fit the crime.  The speeding ticket for 10 MPH over is not as bad as the one that was 35 MPH over the limit.

I'm not defending the guys from the past, but what they did isn't on the same level.  Period.

"Can you kind of kill someone"

Obviously not as there is no in between.  At the same time, you can be charged at different levels - first degree/pre-meditated, 2nd degree, involuntary manslaughter, etc.  Same with stealing.  You can be charged with a misdemeanor or you can be charged with grand larceny.  Your examples only helped to prove the point.

by slurve on Aug 6, 2007 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hahaha
Logic 101 says it's the perfect question. And the fact no-one answers it gives us our answer.

My GUESS is that you would not want an asterisk beside Aaron but you would want one beside Bonds. I agree one helps more than the other. But they are BOTH PED's. I have no clue how much they actually help, but do know they do help.

NEITHER broke a rule.

Heck, what would happen if they made a legal substance like Creatine illegal? Would/Should we asterisk those guys?

Food for thought.

by pedrophile on Aug 5, 2007 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How about this
Before you claim victory, you ask if I even think Bonds should have an astrisk?  My answer would be "I don't care" so of course I 'm not going to say I want an * by the past players.

It just amazes me at the disconnect here.  Yeah, the old timers cheated, but it wasn't as bad.  Hard to go back and slap something on them - it's the past.  This stuff is current.  The old-timers openly admit it.  When you drop a "roid bomb" at a Bonds press conference, he acts like you told him his mother is good in the sack.  Same with the vast majority of these guys.  Bring it up and they withdraw like a pecker in an ice tub.  All except for Giambi and Canseco of course.  People in baseball tried to undermine his credibility and pass it off as whoring to sell books.  They also did there best to shut Giambi up.

by slurve on Aug 6, 2007 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the problem I have
is that with the HGH/Roids it is the past. The changed the rule. Which of course they should have done ages ago. But now they are going after someone who did it while it wasn't a rule.

They also made amphetamines illegal. I don't hear about them going after anyone that took amphetamines BEFORE it was illegal.

We all realize that steroids help more than amphetamines. And we all realize these rules should have been in place years ago.

But do we really want to punish someone for breaking a rule before it became a rule? And selectively doing it for the one rule and not for the other?

by pedrophile on Aug 6, 2007 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

further
Don't people realize this Bonds hunt has one and only one purpose IMO.

If we focus on Bonds then we are not focused on Selig + Baseball ownership + baseball union + the constituents. Because these are the people that saw there was a problem and refused to do anything.

That is where our focus should be.

Guys like Shilling are a joke to me. He was high and mighty many times about steroids. He was a union rep I think also. But did he once speak out about steroids before? Do anything for testing before this mess? Yeah, he's really earned the right to open his big mouth, lol.

by pedrophile on Aug 6, 2007 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now you have me
I said it in the past - I'm totally with you about the mass-culpability/roots of this problem.  We can debate when it actually became illegal/against the rules till the cows come home, but when these guys deny their actions and do it with such vigor - they knew they were in the wrong the whole time, otherwise it would be more of "yeah, I did it sue me" type of attitude.  This isn't what we get, we have cowards that hide behind smoke screens and bullshit.

Like I said, I'm not a big proponent of the * but we as fans are free to piss on his parade as we see fit.

by slurve on Aug 6, 2007 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

for sure
and I really don't like Bonds and I'm cool with others liking/not liking him.

What gets my goat is how baseball is using him for their own screwup. Also, baseball is horrible at protecting their players as well as being horrible at promoting their players.

I think Barry is a jerk and his morals are seriously lacking. And I hope someone else breaks the record. But just can't justify an asterisk or anything but first ballot HOF for Barry.

by pedrophile on Aug 6, 2007 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

totally agree with all that
But there is a serious problem when you create rules and then want to punish players BEFORE the rules were created. Especially when you refused to create the rules for a decade because it helped tv revenues.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Ken Caminiti foundation (or someone else) sues baseball over it's role. If baseball is complicit in steroid usage then it set's up an environment where people may feel cheating is a necessity to compete. It's not that I agree with this. But I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen.

by pedrophile on Aug 6, 2007 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fundamental Flaw in argument
There are so many factors that have impacted the increase in 50 hr seasons that have nothing to do with steroids:
  1.  Ballpark dimensions now versus in the past
  2.  Number of teams in the league now versus then
  3.  Laws of physics now versus then
etc, etc.

Pitchers are throwing hard and the faster it comes in impacts how far it goes out.  More teams dillutes talent level talented hitters get to hit against 4th and 5th starters that wouldn't be in the league if there were 24 teams.  Ballpark dimensions have in general been made smaller and more hitter friendly because scoring runs is what casusal fans want.  

To say that steroids = more 50 hr seasons is a bad math formula.

by slickwdb on Aug 7, 2007 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nah
Strike Bonds, McGwire, Sosa from the list and it's a solid list. But those three destroy the list and they are all juicers. Baseball really screwed up.

oh, others that stand out:
Brady Anderson
Todd Helton
Luis Gonzalez

by pedrophile on Aug 7, 2007 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Appropriate Pitcher
Is it just me or do other people find it amusing that Bonds' HR came off a guy who tested positive for steroids?

by mckeeno on Aug 5, 2007 2:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Black/White
I was watching the Sports Reporters this morning and I was struck by the fact that on at least some level this is still a black/white issue.

A black columnist from the New York Times (I believe) said that Bonds breaking the record was "great" and that he was innocent until proven guilty.

Mitch Albom and another white reporter were basically "disgusted" by him breaking the record, and seemed genuinely shocked by what the other guy was saying.

It kind of reminded me a bit of the reactions to the OJ verdict.

Now I just dislike Barry as a human being, and he could be blue or green instead of black as far as I'm concerned, but it seems like race does play some rule in terms of cheering for Barry or not.

Or maybe this mornings reactions were just a coincidence.  

by GregJP on Aug 5, 2007 8:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No, there's something to that...
I saw a race-centric poll of fans a while back about Bonds.  Pretty alarming contrast from what I remember.  

by slurve on Aug 6, 2007 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I totally agree with this.  All the people trying to play the race card seem to neglect this, and it pisses me off.

by dbimberg on Aug 6, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmm
the thing is, a lot of it boils down to "how do you feel about barry?" and not so much "how do you feel about barry breaking hank's record?" so in that regard, race matters. the numbers are pretty emphatic: african-americans are much, much more likely to approve of barry bonds than white americans. i won't get into speculation on why that might be.

by jpahk on Aug 6, 2007 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe african-americans are more likely to
sympathise with his bullshit just because it would be a 'victory' for them...again harkening back to OJ...

by daveh33 on Aug 7, 2007 5:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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